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Some musings on the programme.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:48 am

I have just seen a Dutch programme [daily prime time transmission] in which renowned Dutch Crime Reporter Peter R. de Vries [Emmy Award winner, who has solved some important crimes] vented in no uncertain words, that SY is "making wind", setting traps, flushing out people. E.g. after analysis of the phone records, police has their suspicion about a couple of people and their phone activity might be closely watched during the t.v. reconstructions ... He's obviously completely à jour with the case and referred frequently to Amaral's book, whose thesis he supports. After 3 days of depressing "crimewatching", this was a refreshing interview, which has truly uplifted me.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Cristobell on Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:51 am

I don't know what was going on that night, but I have an uncomfortable feeling that the other children may have been involved. Perhaps they were ALL moved during the course of the evening.  I seem to remember the twins' cots having no bedding, but I am not sure if the bedding was moved with them to the Paynes' apartment, or if it was missing before.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:06 pm

@Cristobell wrote:I don't know what was going on that night, but I have an uncomfortable feeling that the other children may have been involved. Perhaps they were ALL moved during the course of the evening.  I seem to remember the twins' cots having no bedding, but I am not sure if the bedding was moved with them to the Paynes' apartment, or if it was missing before.
***
It has bothered me much that Eddie also alerted to Sean's T-shirt ....

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Mélusine on Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:31 pm

I might easily accept the theory that Gerry seen by the Smith family was not carrying Madeleine but another child. But what struck me these days was in one of the articles about the Smith sighting (unfortunately I don't remember which one, I just followed a link that someone posted) that the Smiths were concerned about the state of the child being carried and even asked if she was sleeping. If the child had been just sleeping, would they have been concerned?

In the files and Amaral's book there is nothing about this as far as I remember.

Has anybody else noticed this?



Edited to correct my bad English.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by aquila on Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:49 pm

I've just watched the German 'reconstruction' and to say I'm angry is an understatement. I'm too busy to go into much detail.

If you compare the German version to the UK version it's so very clear that they are almost like an advert to appeal to a consumer buying a holiday or a lifestyle.

The UK version shows an apartment which bears little/no resemblance to 5a whatsoever (white leather sofas, designer table and chairs, everything all white). The Tapas Bar shows a round table.

The German version shows a completely different apartment and an oblong table at the Tapas Bar.

I'm really sorry I don't have time to go into all the details I've noticed but I just need to say that what in the name of all that's holy and truthful could allow such disparate videos to go out?

So, I have a few questions.

1. Who produced the videos? - production company details compulsory.

2. Who paid for these productions?

3. Did the McCanns view these productions and endorse their release as true?

4. Did Scotland Yard have any involvement/input to the production of these videos?

5. WHO is responsible for this?

6. WHY are there two different productions? surely there is only one truth.

I'm leaving out the details of the wholly different presentation of the family between the two videos as I don't have time.

WHY don't the McCanns insist on accuracy? Oh, I've just answered my own question - it's for the same reason they apparently refuse to do a reconstruction.

aquila - spitting feathers, sick to her stomach and totally pissed off with the pantomime.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by russiandoll on Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:53 pm

@Mélusine wrote:I might easily accept the theory that Gerry seen by the Smith family was not carrying Madeleine but another child. But what struck me these days was in one of the articles about the Smith sighting (unfortunately I don't remember which one, I just followed a link that someone posted) that the Smiths were concerned about the state of the child being carried and even asked if she was sleeping. If the child had been just sleeping, would they have been concerned?

In the files and Amaral's book there is nothing about this as far as I remember.

Has anybody else noticed this?



Edited to correct my bad English.
 Not sure the question re sleeping indicates concern.  It would be natural if you were outgoing to comment to a passer by holding a sleeping child.

 sound asleep hey?   I am not sure Smith asked this as a question wanting a response , it might have been a remark...

 Smith did say in a position which seemed uncomfortable which has been interpreted as uncomfortable for the child / for the carrier.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Mélusine on Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:56 pm

Maybe it was just wording of the author of the article, but it definitely suggested they were concerned... I'm trying to find the article, but can't come across it...

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by suzyjohnson on Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:57 pm

@Cristobell wrote:Smithman hasn't come forward or been traced in 6.5 years, so I don't believe it was a genuine father carrying his child home. Tannerman is a different kettle of fish.  

The Smith family have kept a low profile, they have never sought publicity and they refused to co-operate with the McCanns' alternate investigation.  I think what we may be seeing, for the first time in this case, are witnesses with integrity.
I'm in agreement with you Cristobell.

There are two different e-fits because 9 members of the same family (of different age groups) saw this person at different angles, and so the person they are looking for will probably be somewhere between these two pictures.

It is unlikely someone would be taking their young child home along that route at that time of night, near the beach but not near to hotels, and heading in the direction of the beach.

Tony Bennet makes the point that it's unlikely GM would be carrying MM around the town at the time alarm was being raised but it is also unlikely that an abductor would want to spend any time in the vicinity of PdL with the likelihood that an alarm would be raised as soon as MM was discovered to be missing.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by aquila on Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:08 pm

@aquila wrote:I've just watched the German 'reconstruction' and to say I'm angry is an understatement. I'm too busy to go into much detail.

If you compare the German version to the UK version it's so very clear that they are almost like an advert to appeal to a consumer buying a holiday or a lifestyle.

The UK version shows an apartment which bears little/no resemblance to 5a whatsoever (white leather sofas, designer table and chairs, everything all white). The Tapas Bar shows a round table.

The German version shows a completely different apartment and an oblong table at the Tapas Bar.

I'm really sorry I don't have time to go into all the details I've noticed but I just need to say that what in the name of all that's holy and truthful could allow such disparate videos to go out?

So, I have a few questions.

1. Who produced the videos? - production company details compulsory.

2. Who paid for these productions?

3. Did the McCanns view these productions and endorse their release as true?

4. Did Scotland Yard have any involvement/input to the production of these videos?

5. WHO is responsible for this?

6. WHY are there two different productions? surely there is only one truth.

I'm leaving out the details of the wholly different presentation of the family between the two videos as I don't have time.

WHY don't the McCanns insist on accuracy? Oh, I've just answered my own question - it's for the same reason they apparently refuse to do a reconstruction.

aquila - spitting feathers, sick to her stomach and totally pissed off with the pantomime.
@candyfloss - sorry CF I posted this in the wrong topic. Would it be possible to move it to the German Version of Crimewatch please.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by ChippyM on Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:27 pm

@Mélusine wrote:Maybe it was just wording of the author of the article, but it definitely suggested they were concerned... I'm trying to find the article, but can't come across it...
is this the article? from the Daily Mail 2008?

"Speaking from his home in Drogheda, Co. Louth, Mr Smith recalled the sighting, which is strikingly similar to one by a friend of the McCanns, Jane Tanner. In hindsight, the retired Mr Smith said, the mans rude behaviour should have aroused his suspicions.
 
He explained: "The one thing we noted afterwards was that he gave us no greeting.
 
"My wife Mary remembered afterwards that she asked him, 'Oh, is she asleep?' But he never acknowledged her one way or another.
 
"He just put his head down and averted his eyes. This is very unusual in a tourist town at such a quiet time of the year."


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Mélusine on Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:37 pm

@ChippyM wrote:
@Mélusine wrote:Maybe it was just wording of the author of the article, but it definitely suggested they were concerned... I'm trying to find the article, but can't come across it...
is this the article? from the Daily Mail 2008?

"Speaking from his home in Drogheda, Co. Louth, Mr Smith recalled the sighting, which is strikingly similar to one by a friend of the McCanns, Jane Tanner. In hindsight, the retired Mr Smith said, the mans rude behaviour should have aroused his suspicions.
 
He explained: "The one thing we noted afterwards was that he gave us no greeting.
 
"My wife Mary remembered afterwards that she asked him, 'Oh, is she asleep?' But he never acknowledged her one way or another.
 
"He just put his head down and averted his eyes. This is very unusual in a tourist town at such a quiet time of the year."


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html



No, no, it was a recent thing, from these 2,3 days surrounding the CW broadcasting. I went through more than 100 pages here, but didn't find the link. And didn't find anything on Google neither.

I think I might get confused having been reading so many pages to catch up with all new info or the author of the article add something to actual words of Mr. Smith. I'm sorry I don't want to create a myth or something.






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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by russiandoll on Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:39 pm

so did not think the sleeping child was significant....but the fact they were ignored when they spoke to the man ?

  Maybe an accent   German/ Dutch / Scandinavian would have been a giveaway hence the non-response ?

thinking

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Cerinthe on Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:46 pm

Amaral thinks it was Gerry.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by russiandoll on Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:49 pm

is that reply to  me?   I know who GA believes this man was !

[ look at the smiley.......get my drift ?!]

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Cerinthe on Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:28 pm

Got it.   I'm being too literal.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Woofer on Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:16 pm

@ChippyM wrote:   Some things I have thought in relation to these types of question.

-  the man was seen heading towards the beach but that doesn't mean it was his final destination, what else is on the way to the beach, houses, carparks?  Again was this man heading in that direction risking being seen because he simply had to get somewhere by a certain time?

another possibility is some kind of bizarre 'decoy mission' but I don't really see that as likely.
THE CHURCH

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Seek truth on Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:22 pm

@jeanmonroe wrote:Petermac:
WOULD YOU NOT have a car parked right outside, instead of wandering about a holiday resort for 5 or more minutes being seen by anyone who cared to look ?
______________________________________________________

We said THAT years ago!

The car would have been parked in the car park next to the small wall right outside apartment 5A.
There was no car in the car park, because GERRY didn't have a car!

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Mrjasper on Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:32 pm

Correct - the Church. 

Has the Priest ever given an official statement to the police?

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Woofer on Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:54 pm

Father Pacheco`s statement:-

"Translation of Father Pachecos Statement to the PJ 30th October 2007
Jose Manuel Conceicao Pacheco

The first time he had contact with the McCann's was on 5th May at about 19.00. This was a personal contact with them in the Ocean Club at their apartment, but not the apartment Madeleine disappeared from. They were accompanied by members of the holiday group.

This was an important meeting for the McCann's and which had not been possible to the fact that they were busy. He knows that on the fateful night the McCann's requested the presence of a priest, but he was only informed the following morning.

On the 5th, the theme they talked about was the disappearance and he gave all possible spiritual comfort and they prayed together. They also agreed that the couple would go to the church the following day to attend a mass.

He also prayed with the McCann's on the 6th and 8th May in their apartment.

He gave them the key to the church on the 7th or 8th May upon the suggestion of John Geraghty, a resident of the parish, so that they could calmly go to the church without any media pressure. Someone from the church gave the key to John Geraghty, who then passed it on to the McCann's, with Father Pacheco's permission.

He does not remember the date upon which the key was returned.

Other contact with the McCann's took place at the end of mass when he would comfort them.

He would also meet with the McCann's after they returned from their trips and remembered they were animated when they returned from Morocco as they thought they would Madeleine there. He also comforted Kate when the news of a child buried in Arau broke, as she revealed great nervousness and anxiety, thinking that the child had died.

When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.

He never talked to them alone.

He states that they showed great suffering to the loss of their daughter.

He adds that a parish bulletin was published giving spiritual, moral and human support to the couple and to other missing children. "


John Geraghty A 68-year-old businessman from Leicestershire who now lives on the outskirts of Praia da Luz. Offered to store the McCanns' hire car so that they could commission independent forensic tests

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:08 pm

@russiandoll wrote:so did not think the sleeping child was significant....but the fact they were ignored when they spoke to the man ?

  Maybe an accent   German/ Dutch / Scandinavian would have been a giveaway hence the non-response ?

thinking
Or 'Weegian'?

An Irisman would recognize this, and as the Smiths spoke first, Smithman would have known they were Irish, and would remark his accent, whatever it was

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by bobbin on Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:22 pm

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:Smithman hasn't come forward or been traced in 6.5 years, so I don't believe it was a genuine father carrying his child home. Tannerman is a different kettle of fish.  

The Smith family have kept a low profile, they have never sought publicity and they refused to co-operate with the McCanns' alternate investigation.  I think what we may be seeing, for the first time in this case, are witnesses with integrity.
I'm in agreement with you Cristobell.

There are two different e-fits because 9 members of the same family (of different age groups) saw this person at different angles, and so the person they are looking for will probably be somewhere between these two pictures.

It is unlikely someone would be taking their young child home along that route at that time of night, near the beach but not near to hotels, and heading in the direction of the beach.

Tony Bennet makes the point that it's unlikely GM would be carrying MM around the town at the time alarm was being raised but it is also unlikely that an abductor would want to spend any time in the vicinity of PdL with the likelihood that an alarm would be raised as soon as MM was discovered to be missing.
So much reading, my brains gone blotto.
Please can someone tell me:-
1. Who produced / created the two Smithman photo-fits.
Was it the McCann P.I.s or Scotland Yard.
2. Who was interviewing whom, to get the details.
3. When were they created.
4. Who kept them, without letting the public see them.
5. If it was not SY, then how did they get the efits, was it when the McC P.I.s were 'invited' to give over all of the material that they had collected.

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by sallypelt on Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:38 pm

@Woofer wrote:Father Pacheco`s statement:-

"Translation of Father Pachecos Statement to the PJ 30th October 2007
Jose Manuel Conceicao Pacheco

The first time he had contact with the McCann's was on 5th May at about 19.00. This was a personal contact with them in the Ocean Club at their apartment, but not the apartment Madeleine disappeared from. They were accompanied by members of the holiday group.

This was an important meeting for the McCann's and which had not been possible to the fact that they were busy. He knows that on the fateful night the McCann's requested the presence of a priest, but he was only informed the following morning.

On the 5th, the theme they talked about was the disappearance and he gave all possible spiritual comfort and they prayed together. They also agreed that the couple would go to the church the following day to attend a mass.

He also prayed with the McCann's on the 6th and 8th May in their apartment.

He gave them the key to the church on the 7th or 8th May upon the suggestion of John Geraghty, a resident of the parish, so that they could calmly go to the church without any media pressure. Someone from the church gave the key to John Geraghty, who then passed it on to the McCann's, with Father Pacheco's permission.

He does not remember the date upon which the key was returned.

Other contact with the McCann's took place at the end of mass when he would comfort them.

He would also meet with the McCann's after they returned from their trips and remembered they were animated when they returned from Morocco as they thought they would Madeleine there. He also comforted Kate when the news of a child buried in Arau broke, as she revealed great nervousness and anxiety, thinking that the child had died.

When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.

He never talked to them alone.

He states that they showed great suffering to the loss of their daughter.

He adds that a parish bulletin was published giving spiritual, moral and human support to the couple and to other missing children. "


John Geraghty A 68-year-old businessman from Leicestershire who now lives on the outskirts of Praia da Luz. Offered to store the McCanns' hire car so that they could commission independent forensic tests
A bit more info on John Geraghty[:

http://madeleinemccann.org/2009/1941/profile-john-geraghty/

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:15 pm

1.
Oddity: in the German Aktenzeichen, at 1.28.47, the Germans have the actress playing Kate in the discoveryscene in the childrens bedroom speak Dutch" 'Madelin, waar ben je?' That's when she has to portray anguish/panic, and inadvertently falls back on het mother language, it seems. 

Now, why, in a country where there are probably more able blonde actresses than in the Netherlands, would a German producer opt for a Dutch actress?

Could it be that the whole production was shot not in Germany/PdL/Spain, by the Aktenzeichen people, but in the Netherlands/PdL/Spain, and that the actors are all Dutch, or a mixed bunch?
Germany as a habit makes practically undetectable voice-overs for everything on their TV-screens, so where you hear German spoken, that could be a voice over.

Why a Dutch actress for Kate?

And this also raises the question: who produced this 'German' version anyway?, especially as it differs from the UK one.

2.
A second point to make is that strange emphasis is placed on the sorti of MO and ROB, 'MO' pushing KH back in het seat, fysically preventing her from getting up, at which she shows not a little amazement and discomfort. Looks as if the two men don't want her around the apartment. Seems like MO is being stitched up, or am I the only one who gets this impression from that strange fragment?

By the producers of the 'German reconstruction'

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Montclair on Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:42 pm

@PeterMac wrote:IF you were an abductor who had planned it all and taken notes and all the other stuff we are asked to believe
WOULD YOU NOT have a car parked right outside, instead of wandering about a holiday resort for 5 or more minutes being seen by anyone who cared to look ?

IF you were father of a deceased child whose body you were trying to hide
WOULD YOU NOT do it during the day, in a blue tennis bag, for example, then clean the apartment, wash pyjamas with tell tale stains, and generally tidy up before raising the 'false' alarm.
WOULD YOU leave all that to the last minute and hope that you could get back to the table in time to pretend that you had been watching football ?
WOULD YOU NOT make sure that your alibi was as tight as it could be, down to exact timings, other people seeing you, down to standing in the street talking to a bloke you had hardly ever met, in the cold, with your dinner going cold, talking about nothing in particular for as long as you could, to establish that you were there and not somewhere else ?

My bet is on Smithman being a proper father looking after a sleeping child in the approved manner.
And when he comes forward we are then left with ? ? ?
I believe that the person the Smiths saw was Gerry McCann. The group or the ones who knew that Maddie had died were in a panic and dreamed up the badly thought out abduction scenario because they didn't know what else to do. The adrenaline was high and Gerry took the risk. If it had been an innocent father going home he would have answered the Smiths. The sighting had been publicised at the time and noone has ever come forward. And most importantly why did the McCanns always ignored that sighting. JMO

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Re: Some musings on the programme.

Post by Woofer on Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm

@Portia "A second point to make is that strange emphasis is placed on the sorti of MO and ROB, 'MO' pushing KH back in het seat, fysically preventing her from getting up, at which she shows not a little amazement and discomfort. Looks as if the two men don't want her around the apartment. Seems like MO is being stitched up, or am I the only one who gets this impression from that strange fragment?"



No, you`re not the only one. Other people on here noticed the same.  I thought `blimey, that`s a bit forceful, why are they preventing her from going to the apartment`.  Then I put it down to the cast being German !

(or maybe Dutch, as you say).

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