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Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 20.10.13 0:18

Interesting, ultimaThule.  It could well have been two people.  Why should KM be reported as saying (to the social worker visitor, Yvonne, on 4 May if I have that right?) that 'a couple' had taken her.  Could have been indicative!  Under stress.

That phrase "They have taken her" has never sat well with me.  In extreme situations we tend to blurt out something accurate; the roar takes over.  Why say it?

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by ultimaThule on 20.10.13 0:43

Along with every other word they've said or written , the words 'they've taken her' didn't sit well with me either, Searcher, and it occurs to me that when he made his check and had his insincere 'proud' moment, Gerry had opportunity to pass his eldest daughter out of the front door into the waiting arms of a couple by prior arrangement.  

Is it possible to prise the truth out of habitual liars? Only someone such as Hobs may be able to achieve this feat because I suspect that the group have long agreed a fallback position to be adopted if push comes to shove as the true events of that night and the preceding days, and possibly months, will send them all down.

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 20.10.13 1:06

But then we don't know, ultimaThule, if it was a check.  If events had taken place the day before, say, could it have been an arrangement?  That "they" fulfilled.  I come back to the dumped plastic bag, containing the jeans, fleece and shower curtain, with the DNA and bodily fluids which allegedly matched Madeleine's.  If that allegation is true, it raises a whole other side to this story.  I have not kept the link to this - so many links! - but I would like to see it debated fully here.

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The dumped bag and DNA ..

Post by Searcher on 20.10.13 1:20


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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by ultimaThule on 20.10.13 1:44

@Searcher wrote:But then we don't know, ultimaThule, if it was a check.  If events had taken place the day before, say, could it have been an arrangement?  That "they" fulfilled.  I come back to the dumped plastic bag, containing the jeans, fleece and shower curtain, with the DNA and bodily fluids which allegedly matched Madeleine's.  If that allegation is true, it raises a whole other side to this story.  I have not kept the link to this - so many links! - but I would like to see it debated fully here.
We don't know because we weren't there and, with the exception of abduction by aliens who teleported her into their hovering spacecraft, literally anything could have happened to Madeleine McCann. 

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if the group's fall back position is that they were all abducted by aliens, returned to Earth sans Madeleine, and made up a tale of her being taken by a stranger/a couple/gypsies/paedophiles living in the lawless hills etc because they thought no-one would believe them and they'd lose their jobs/houses etc because the NHS won't employ medics whose sanity is questionable.  As if.  angryred 

Well done for finding the link - there's a lot to digest and I'll try to find time to study it fully later today and come back to this thread.

I wonder why David Payne switched to research after years of hospital doctoring without progressing very far up the ladder.

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by ultimaThule on 20.10.13 2:04

Having quickly skimmed through your link, Searcher, I'm beginning to think that if any of the Tapas 9 find themselves up on criminal charges, they'd get a fairer trial in Portugal than here in the UK big grin 

If I'd known a couple of months back what loo paper is du jour in their en suites, I'd have bought shares in the companies who supply it.  
It may take an inordinate length of time but the law of karma dictates  shit happens  to the most deserving and the gods look set to drop more than a few buckets of manure onto the saintly one, her psychopathic spouse, and her pals.

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 20.10.13 8:51

By gum, ultimaThule, you have a certain way with words !  What a brilliant chuckle to start a Sunday!thanks

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 20.10.13 9:09

There is another element that comes to mind, ultimaThule.  There has been discussion here about the pink blanket this week.  If I remember it right, Oprah Winfrey asked KM about the pink blanket; she replied that it was with Madeleine and she hoped it would give her some comfort.  The blanket, as I understand it from the thread here, was in fact photographed by police immediately after the event, on the bed in apt. 5a. 

At some time afterwards a pink and white blanket was found dumped (that word again!) and muddy in a wasteland area of PdL.  If anyone can find the link it would be very welcome.  Something happened to the pink blanket, enough to give considerable confusion in KM's mind, if the reporting is correct.huh

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 20.10.13 9:13

.. and yes, karma is one element that does not respond to whooshing.woohooo

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by StraightThinking on 20.10.13 9:32

Very important thread

Much has been made on the complexity of this case, but comparing the "UK media" timeline with witness statements makes it much simpler because we can identify any possible inaccuracies in the former, and therefore the windows of opportunity

So, regarding the comments of PeterM, mahlersghost and ultimaThule on the timeline:

AR made a big point of stating the timeline that NSY are now working to and nobody involved can say they aren't aware of it

And, as uT said on this thread, he appears to have received tacit confirmation from the group of three questionable aspects of it

1) That M was discovered missing at 22.00 (because independent witnesses state they knew as early as 21.20)

2) That the table emptied at 22.00 upon the alarm being raised (because independent witnesses say it was empty by 21.40)

3) That Bundleman was an innocent father collecting his child from the night creche (because he was walking in the wrong direction)

The group have had every chance to point out AR's "errors" in establishing the above as a correct version of events

Experienced detectives don't make mistakes as obvious as this, so they must have been deliberate mistakes

These are huge discrepancies which create significant black holes during the 21.15-22.00 period that he said he was focussing on - 40 minutes between 21.20 and 22.00 re the discovery of M's disappearance, 20 mins between 21.40 and 22.00 re the whereabouts of the T7, and who knows re Bundleman since (assuming he existed in the first place) he hasn't been eliminated at all

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 20.10.13 10:18

UltimaThule - do we know any more about the 'small grey car parked outside the apartment'? titter

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 20.10.13 10:42


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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by StraightThinking on 20.10.13 10:49

The grey car was seen parked at about 22.00, 40 mins after first news of M's diappearance, so not an abductor's car

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 20.10.13 11:14

Thankyou, StraightThinking; that seems to put my theory in the bin - that it may have been used.  I think it was seen by witness 21.58.  The formal version has it that KM alerted c. 22.00 but I have seen, as you say, other comments that it was known earlier.  That does not rule out a car being used somewhere on the night, and wondering who would have had access to a car.  I have made a suggestion about this on the Smithman thread but it includes possibility of the grey car, which would seem in fact to be ruled out!  We try!

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by StraightThinking on 20.10.13 12:03

Good point about another car possibly being used, Searcher - with such large black holes in the familiar timeline, there is opportunity for lots of things

Would anyone care to attempt a more accurate timeline, incorporating M being known missing at 21.20 and the Tapas table empty (ie K coming back) at 21.40?

If this is the case there was around 20 mins during which M was missing but the party was still going

Would be helpful to work out who was at the table during that period, and who wasn't

The timings of the checks would have to be revised for a start

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 20.10.13 12:15

I have wondered, on the Smithman thread, StraightThinking, if all the sightings [Pimpleman, Eggman, Bundleman, Smithman] could be illusions of one kind or another.  Such as parent(s) collecting child from night creche - which should be logged - or other scenarios.  If so, it might be possible that Madeleine was taken away by car, quietly on 3 May evening - which would make much more sense than someone walking through the streets, logically.  I also then wonder about the dumped plastic bag containing jeans, fleece, shower curtain, found in wasteland I think if that is right, and allegedly showing Madeleine's DNA.  All part of this terrible mystery, and with so many thoughts here I hesitate to add another.  But I am mighty interested in 2 May, and in that dumped bag.  The theme "They've taken her" does not go away, which implies an expectation of more than one person - 'the couple' that KM mentioned to the social worker on the 4th?   Why?

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by comperedna on 21.10.13 15:28

I'm looking at the back of the dustjacket of Kate's book: 'Madeleine' right now and the red dress picture is on it, and beside it the rather pretty, and maybe even quite likely, age-progressed picture of Madeleine as she might have looked when she was 6: the one with the pink Alice band. (Other age-progressed pics seem very odd, or a funny colour to me.) FWIW that classic red dress picture, seen on so many posters, fliers, T-shirts etc, is labelled 'Madeleine aged 3 1/2, taken January 2007'. If it really was taken then, and it was a favourite close up of her, I can see why they used it. However she looks more like 2 1/2 in it. I do know pics taken of children on different days can look very different, including different hair colour due to changes by the sun or simply by the passage of time.

In the BBC Crimewatch 'mini-drama', I do not call it a reconstruction, the fiction that the much older looking tennis balls pic of M was posted up everywhere is promoted, and I don't think that is true. There is a carefully managed shot of a woman posting up the tennis photo. The video makes it clear that the family were all together playing tennis and that the tennis photo was the last photo taken of her. Huh???? In the book the much discussed pool photo is said to be the last one taken of her. Also, If you read Kate's account, she clearly says that it was NOT a 'family' tennis session on the late afternoon in question, it was a men's tennis session, and she and the children stayed in 5A... where they were conveniently visited by Mr Payne.

Why is Redwood not interested in all the discrepancies between the book and the BBC TV Crimewatch video? Hundreds of thousands of people bought the book and read it, and will find the mis-matches very odd, as they will those various comments made in TV in interviews which 'do not compute'.

The later Sky programme was not quite so bad. Redwood for once sounded at one point as if he were speaking from the heart, rather than as Mr Woodentop. He said: 'It is never too late. This case has gone on quite long enough.' or something near to it as dammit. Hear hear to that!

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Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 21.10.13 19:05

Good points, StraightThinking.  I am still interested in the dumped plastic bag, and wonder what became of it and the alleged forensics?   There are so many possibilities around Smithman, and some very good research on this forum.  But the dumped bag could be the elephant in the room, and there must be some record of what happened to it, and any results that were logged by PJ.   Would anyone know?

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