The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hi,

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and start chatting with us!

Enjoy your day,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by sharonl on 13.10.13 23:07

Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt
 
 
Madeleine McCann went missing when she was three years old on May 3 2007
 1 minute ago | By Press Association    
 
 Video here - http://t.news.uk.msn.com/uk/timeline-changed-in-madeleine-hunt#tscptmt
 
The accepted version of events surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has " significantly changed", detectives have said.
 
It comes as p ictures of men seen in and around the Portuguese town of Praia da Luz at the time of Madeleine's disappearance will be released as part of a BBC Crimewatch appeal to identify the men and eliminate innocent sightings, Scotland Yard said.
 
A short clip has been released ahead of the broadcast showing a reconstructed scene of Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry playing tennis.
 
Photos released in Madeleine hunt
 
Photos released in Madeleine hunt
11 hours ago Duration: 1:43 Views: 13k  
Madeleine, dressed in pink shorts, a light pink T-shirt and pink hat, then runs across the court, clutching a batch of tennis balls.
 
A full reconstruction lasting 25 minutes will feature in the programme, which airs tomorrow at 9pm.
 
In another clip, the McCanns are asked how often they think of their daughter, who went missing when she was three years old on May 3 2007 from a holiday apartment as her parents dined at a nearby tapas restaurant with friends.
 
Mr McCann says: "When it's a special occasion, when you should be your happiest and Madeleine's not there, that's when it really hits home.
 
"Obviously, Madeleine's birthday goes without saying."
 
Mrs McCann adds: "It's when you have big family occasions really. That's it isn't it? 'Family occasion' and you haven't got your complete family."
 
Ahead of the programme, senior investigating officer, Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said: "The timeline we have now established has given new significance to sightings and movements of people in and around Praia da Luz at the time of Madeleine's disappearance.
 
"Our work to date has significantly changed the timeline and the accepted version of events that has been in the public domain to date.
 
"It has allowed us to work with Crimewatch to build the most detailed reconstruction as yet, and highlight very specific appeal points.
 
"I hope that when the public see our investigative strands drawn together within the overall context of that appeal, it will bring in new information that moves our investigation forward."
 
Crimewatch presenter Kirsty Young will speak to the McCanns live in the studio during the programme, while presenter Matthew Amroliwala has been to Praia da Luz to explore the new focus of the police investigation.
 
During the programme, Mr Redwood discusses how the police have approached the inquiry, saying: "Primarily what we sought to do from the beginning is try and draw everything back to zero if you like. Try and take everything back to the beginning and re-analyse and reassess everything, accepting nothing.
 
"The careful and critical analysis of the timeline has been absolutely key.
 
"Primarily, we're focused on the area between 8.30 and 10.
 
"We know at 8.30 that was the time Mr and Mrs McCann went down to the tapas area for their dinner and we know that around at 10pm that was when Mrs McCann found that Madeleine was missing."
 
An incident room will be staffed during tomorrow's appeal and the days that follow, when the appeal moves to Holland and Germany.
 
A dedicated call centre will also be opened at Hendon, in north-west London.
 
Mr Redwood and his team recently revealed a vast log of mobile phone traffic could be the key to finding out what happened to Madeleine.
 
Scotland Yard detectives, who have interviewed 442 people as part of their review-turned-investigation, hope to track down as many people present in the Portuguese town at the time.
 
Since launching its own investigation, 41 people of interest have been identified by the Metropolitan Police, including 15 UK nationals.
 
Detectives have issued 31 international letters of request (ILOR) to mostly European countries in relation to some of the persons of interest as well as accessing phone records.
 
A large but "manageable" list of phone numbers identified as being present in Praia da Luz - though not necessarily used to make phone calls - has been drawn up by detectives with a "significant" number unattributed to any named person.
 
The Portuguese investigation officially closed but authorities there are backing the Scotland Yard inquiry and officers from both countries will work together in pursuing new leads.
 
The Metropolitan Police now has a team of six Portuguese detectives based in Faro, who are carrying out inquiries on its behalf.
 
The McCanns are currently suing former police chief Goncalo Amaral for libel over claims in the book The Truth Of The Lie.

____________________
"WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER" - Rebekah Brooks to David Cameron

sharonl


Posts : 3565
Reputation : 419
Join date : 2009-12-29

View user profile http://www.cold2012.org.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by ultimaThule on 14.10.13 1:10

@sharonl wrote:Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt
 
 
Madeleine McCann went missing when she was three years old on May 3 2007
 1 minute ago | By Press Association    
 
 Video here - http://t.news.uk.msn.com/uk/timeline-changed-in-madeleine-hunt#tscptmt
 
The accepted version of events surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has " significantly changed", detectives have said.
 
It comes as p ictures of men seen in and around the Portuguese town of Praia da Luz at the time of Madeleine's disappearance will be released as part of a BBC Crimewatch appeal to identify the men and eliminate innocent sightings, Scotland Yard said.
 
A short clip has been released ahead of the broadcast showing a reconstructed scene of Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry playing tennis.
 
Photos released in Madeleine hunt
 
Photos released in Madeleine hunt
11 hours ago Duration: 1:43 Views: 13k  
Madeleine, dressed in pink shorts, a light pink T-shirt and pink hat, then runs across the court, clutching a batch of tennis balls.
 
A full reconstruction lasting 25 minutes will feature in the programme, which airs tomorrow at 9pm.
 
In another clip, the McCanns are asked how often they think of their daughter, who went missing when she was three years old on May 3 2007 from a holiday apartment as her parents dined at a nearby tapas restaurant with friends.
 
Mr McCann says: "When it's a special occasion, when you should be your happiest and Madeleine's not there, that's when it really hits home.
 
"Obviously, Madeleine's birthday goes without saying."
 
Mrs McCann adds: "It's when you have big family occasions really. That's it isn't it? 'Family occasion' and you haven't got your complete family."
 
Ahead of the programme, senior investigating officer, Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said: "The timeline we have now established has given new significance to sightings and movements of people in and around Praia da Luz at the time of Madeleine's disappearance.
 
"Our work to date has significantly changed the timeline and the accepted version of events that has been in the public domain to date.
 
"It has allowed us to work with Crimewatch to build the most detailed reconstruction as yet, and highlight very specific appeal points.
 
"I hope that when the public see our investigative strands drawn together within the overall context of that appeal, it will bring in new information that moves our investigation forward."
 
Crimewatch presenter Kirsty Young will speak to the McCanns live in the studio during the programme, while presenter Matthew Amroliwala has been to Praia da Luz to explore the new focus of the police investigation.
 
During the programme, Mr Redwood discusses how the police have approached the inquiry, saying: "Primarily what we sought to do from the beginning is try and draw everything back to zero if you like. Try and take everything back to the beginning and re-analyse and reassess everything, accepting nothing.
 
"The careful and critical analysis of the timeline has been absolutely key.
 
"Primarily, we're focused on the area between 8.30 and 10.
 
"We know at 8.30 that was the time Mr and Mrs McCann went down to the tapas area for their dinner and we know that around at 10pm that was when Mrs McCann found that Madeleine was missing."
 
An incident room will be staffed during tomorrow's appeal and the days that follow, when the appeal moves to Holland and Germany.
 
A dedicated call centre will also be opened at Hendon, in north-west London.
 
Mr Redwood and his team recently revealed a vast log of mobile phone traffic could be the key to finding out what happened to Madeleine.
 
Scotland Yard detectives, who have interviewed 442 people as part of their review-turned-investigation, hope to track down as many people present in the Portuguese town at the time.
 
Since launching its own investigation, 41 people of interest have been identified by the Metropolitan Police, including 15 UK nationals.
 
Detectives have issued 31 international letters of request (ILOR) to mostly European countries in relation to some of the persons of interest as well as accessing phone records.
 
A large but "manageable" list of phone numbers identified as being present in Praia da Luz - though not necessarily used to make phone calls - has been drawn up by detectives with a "significant" number unattributed to any named person.
 
The Portuguese investigation officially closed but authorities there are backing the Scotland Yard inquiry and officers from both countries will work together in pursuing new leads.
 
The Metropolitan Police now has a team of six Portuguese detectives based in Faro, who are carrying out inquiries on its behalf.
 
The McCanns are currently suing former police chief Goncalo Amaral for libel over claims in the book The Truth Of The Lie.
"During the programme, Mr Redwood discusses how the police have approached the inquiry, saying: "Primarily what we sought to do from the beginning is try and draw everything back to zero if you like.

"Draw" everything back to zero? Does this mean Redwood asked his new best friends to 'draw' up another timeline on the cover of another of Madeleine's treasured books?


Try and take everything back to the beginning and re-analyse and reassess everything, accepting nothing.

Sounds good but why do I get the feeling Redwood has accepted without question everything the McCanns have told him.

The careful and critical analysis of the timeline has been absolutely key.

Which timeline would that be?  The one created by the McCcans and their pals, the one established by the PJ, or the new improved version?
 
Primarily, we're focused on the area between 8.30 and 10.

Not much of a revelation there.

We know at 8.30 that was the time Mr and Mrs McCann went down to the tapas area for their dinner and we know that around at 10pm that was when Mrs McCann found that Madeleine was missing." 

If Redwood had read the files he'd know that, from the statements of independent witnesses,  St K8 may have 'found Madeleine was missing' as early as 9.30pm.

In another clip, the McCanns are asked how often they think of their daughter, who went missing when she was three years old on May 3 2007 from a holiday apartment as her parents dined at a nearby tapas restaurant with friends.
 
Mr McCann says: "When it's a special occasion, when you should be your happiest and Madeleine's not there, that's when it really hits home.
 
"Obviously, Madeleine's birthday goes without saying."
 
Mrs McCann adds: "It's when you have big family occasions really. That's it isn't it? 'Family occasion' and you haven't got your complete family."

From the above, the it appears the McCanns think of their firstborn daughter some half a dozen times a year.   Parents who've lost children tend to say words to the effect that never a moment goes by when they don't think about them, and I'm inclined to believe that strangers think about Madeleine more often than her parents do. 

ultimaThule

Posts : 3355
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2013-09-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Cristobell on 14.10.13 1:45

I expect Winnie Johnson - Mother of Moors Murders' victim Keith Bennett, thought about her son a bit more often than birthdays and happy family occasions.

Cristobell

Posts : 2436
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2011-10-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by ultimaThule on 14.10.13 2:12

@Cristobell wrote:I expect Winnie Johnson - Mother of Moors Murders' victim Keith Bennett, thought about her son a bit more often than birthdays and happy family occasions.
The McCanns are an insult to parents such as Winnie Johnson, Coral Jones, Sara Payne,... the list is legion.

And I expect poor Mrs Fenn went to her grave bitterly regretting she didn't call the police on May 1st.

What is going on here?  The Prime Minister, Home Secretary, NSY, BBC & other new channels, and all of the British press, are dancing to the McCanns' tune.  How has this come about?

It seems improbable the extremely expensive dereconstruction is part of a cunning plan to close off every avenue in order to trap the McCanns in the sticky web of their deceit.  If that had been the intention it would have cost a whole less, and been more effective, to haul their arses in for formal interviews in separate rooms, and to have left them cooling their heels while their 7 pals were interviewed before they got their turn and, no doubt, this could have been done at the request of the Portuguese police.

I'm beginning to believe that Andy Redwood is dead from the neck up and the more I have to endure his bovine features dominating my tv screen, the more tempted I am to chuck a brick at his image. banghead

ultimaThule

Posts : 3355
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2013-09-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Police seek man in Madeleine hunt

Post by sharonl on 14.10.13 7:17

Police seek man in Madeleine hunt





E-fit image of a man seen in the Portuguese town of Praia da Luz at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance
3 minutes ago | By Press Association



Detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are asking for the public's help to identify a man in an appeal they say is of "vital importance".

Two e-fit images, believed to be of the same man, which will feature in the BBC Crimewatch episode tonight, have been drawn up based on statements and descriptions from two different witnesses who saw this man in the Praia da Luz town area.

The sightings are from the evening of Thursday May 3 2007 - the night that Madeleine went missing.

Work by detectives has given them a far greater understanding of the times when the abduction could have taken place and this has made the statements from the two witnesses far more significant, Scotland Yard said.

One of the main priorities for the investigation is being able to identify the man who is being described, police added.

The witnesses have described the man in the e-fit as being white, aged between 20-40 years old, with short brown hair, of medium build, medium height and clean shaven.

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, the senior investigating officer, said that while this is far from being the only line of inquiry, it is of "vital importance".

"Whilst this man may or may not be the key to unlocking this investigation, tracing and speaking to him is of vital importance to us.

"We have witnesses placing him in the resort area around the time of Madeleine's disappearance.

"This is far from our only line of inquiry and there will be e-fits released of other sightings as well, who we are equally keen to trace. These people were seen on the day of Madeleine's disappearance and the days leading up to it," he said.

He added that detectives have been able to "make massive steps forward" by drawing together all the material gathered to date and reviewing it as a whole.

"We continue to put Madeleine at the heart of our investigation and I would urge people to watch Crimewatch tonight and if you can help identify this man or have any information about our new appeal points please contact us.

"Praia da Luz is a popular holiday destination for many nationalities so our requests for help need to be repeated in many different countries. I will be travelling to Holland, Germany and Ireland to seek the support of the public there.

"If you were in and around the Praia da Luz resort on Thursday, 3 May 2007, but you have not yet spoken to police, and you think you may have information, please pass it on.

"I would also like to ask for the help of the local community in Praia da Luz. Portugal is a key country for us to trace any outstanding witnesses and our appeals will be repeated there.

"We still have a lot of material to investigate and much work to do. Your information could be the vital piece we need to finally answer what happened to Madeleine."

In a clip from tonight's Crimewatch, released by Scotland Yard, Kate McCann says: "We're not the ones that has done something wrong here. It's the person who's gone into that apartment and taken a little girl away from her family."

____________________
"WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER" - Rebekah Brooks to David Cameron

sharonl


Posts : 3565
Reputation : 419
Join date : 2009-12-29

View user profile http://www.cold2012.org.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Guest on 14.10.13 8:45

Mrs McCann adds: "It's when you have big family occasions really. That's it isn't it? 'Family occasion' and you haven't got your complete family."
 Kate McCann says: "We're not the ones that has done something wrong here. It's the person who's gone into that apartment and taken a little girl away from her family."
So, for Kate, it's only at big family occasions when grandparents, aunties, uncles and cousins talk about missing Madeleine that she notices that Madeleine's not there. The distancing in the second quote backs that up and needs no further comment.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Let us examine the new Time-line

Post by PeterMac on 19.10.13 10:14

The dismissal of Tannerman has been acclaimed as opening the “Window of Opportunity” for an abduction.  
It seems to be suggested that the previous 3 minutes has somehow been expanded to an hour and a half.
But has it ?

9:06 Gerry checks the children
9:12 / 15   He then stands outside
9:13 / 16   He returns to the Tapas
9:25 After starters MO and RJO go to back to their apartments via the car park entrance.    They go first to 5D, where RJO’s daughter Evie is heard crying.  RJO enters flat, whilst MO checks inside 5B, then returns to 5D
2130 RJO remains in 5D as daughter has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance, enters, sees twins breathing . . .

It takes 1 minute to walk from the Tapas to the bottom of the stair at 5A.
1 minute to go from there to the front door of 5A / 5D / 5B  via the car park.
1 minute for both to enter 5D to tend to the crying child
1 minute to go to 5B and check child
30 seconds to return to 5D
one minute to go to the bottom of the stairs 5A
30 second to enter 5A
30 seconds to stand in the apartment and “see the twins breathing”
15 seconds to exit
One minute to return to the Tapas

total a little under 8 minutes.
In fact they allow 10 minutes

But TWO men walked across the car park, and the shutters were obviously closed.
One man walked back across the cap park - ditto
Same man entered the apartment - ditto - no slamming doors or whooshing curtains

At that point everything was OK
And it is now   2135

2140  JT (again) goes to 5D. so she crosses car park at 2142 - shutters and window obviously OK,  and no other activity, no cars moving around, no people lurking  - nothing.
2145  RJO returns to table, so he again crossed the car park at 2143.
2155 Kate raises alarm (according to the TWO handwritten timelines - altered on typed one to 2200)

So Kate must have left the table at 2150 to get to 5A, enter, check, hear slamming doors, and whooshing curtains, hurtle around, checking all rooms cupboards etc and get back to the Tapas by 2155

So the new window of opportunity is

around 5 minutes - as an absolute maximum

In this time the intruder has to
• Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or through the front door,

BUT In addition the sedation used must now be almost instantaneous, so that by the time Kate reaches the twins within 4 or 5 minutes they are already deeply unconscious, and will not rouse until 10 hours later, without after effects.  This substance must also be undetectable even by a trained anaesthetist.
There is no substance which can do this.

Well done Redwood.  Bit by bit the net is closing.

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by russiandoll on 19.10.13 10:19

AND THERE IS NO DAVID PAYNE SEEING AN ALIVE MADDIE BEFORE THE MCCANNS LEFT FOR TAPAS.

   AND THAT BLOODY BEDROOM DOOR......WHICH MOVED TWICE .

   I HOPE THEY DONT BLAME IT ON THE WHOOSHING WIND.

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


russiandoll

Posts : 3942
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2011-09-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 19.10.13 10:26

@PeterMac wrote:The dismissal of Tannerman has been aclaimed as opening the “Window of Opportunity” for an abduction.  
It seems to be suggested that the previous 3 minutes has somehow been expanded to an hour and a half.
But does it ?

9:06 Gerry checks the children
9:12 / 15   He then stands outside
9:13 / 16   He returns to the Tapas
9:25 After starters MO and RJO go to back to their apartments via the car park entrance.    They go first to 5D, where RJO’s daughter Evie is heard crying.  RJO enters flat, whilst MO checks inside 5B, then returns to 5D
2130 RJO remains in 5D as daughter has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance, enters, sees twins breathing . . .

It takes 1 minute to walk from the Tapas to the bottom of the stair at 5A.
1 minute to go from there to the front door of 5A / 5D / 5B  via the car park.
1 minute for both to enter 5D to tend to the crying child
1 minute to go to 5B and check child
30 seconds to return to 5D
one minute to go to the bottom of the stairs 5A
30 second to enter 5A
30 seconds to stand in the apartment and “see the twins breathing”
15 seconds to exit
One minute to return to the Tapas

total a little under 8 minutes.
In fact they allow 10 minutes

But TWO men walked across the car park, and the shutters were obviously closed.
One man walked back across the cap park - ditto
Same man entered the apartment - ditto - no slamming doors or whooshing curtains

At that point everything was OK
And it is now   2135

2140  JT (again) goes to 5D. so she crosses car park at 2142 - shutters and window obviously OK,  and no other activity, no cars moving around, no people lurking  - nothing.
2145  RJO returns to table, so he again crossed the car park at 2143.
2155 Kate raises alarm (according to the TWO handwritten timelines - altered on typed one to 2200)

So Kate must have left the table at 2150 to get to 5A, enter, check, hear slamming doors, and whooshing curtains, hurtle around, checking all rooms cupboards etc and get back to the Tapas by 2155

So the new window of opportunity is

around 5 minutes - as an absolute maximum

In this time the intruder has to
• Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or through the front door,

BUT In addition the sedation used must now be almost instantaneous, so that by the time Kate reaches the twins within 4 or 5 minutes they are already deeply unconscious, and will not rouse until 10 hours later, without after effects.  This substance must also be undetectable even by a trained anaesthetist.
There is no substance which can do this.

Well done Redwood.  Bit by bit the net is closing.
It's just a shame that Mr Redwood has not seen fit to make more of an effort to present a bit of detail regarding the circumstances to the general public. If SY would bother to share some if this with the public, it might save time and money, rather than to whip up a storm over bare chested blond men running all around PdL. He might be drawing the wrong sort of attention to the case.

In fact, wouldn't it be a good idea if SY summarised the most useful parts of the PJ files and direct the public there, to see what comes up? I'm sure reading the statements of the Tapas mob, Mrs Fenn and Mrs Gaspar would throw a lot of light on the matter.

____________________
The truth will out.

Smokeandmirrors
Moderator

Posts : 2428
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2011-07-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

The bag with jeans, fleece and alleged DNA ..

Post by Searcher on 19.10.13 10:29

We were looking yesterday at Exeter/Devon connections, and also article in the D. Mail I think Sept. 2007, saying that a plastic bag had been found, dumped in or near PdL containing a pair of jeans and a fleece, which allegedly showed forensic traces of Madeleine's DNA and bodily fluids, scent of death. 

This was linked to JT's statement that she had 'not brought jeans on holiday'.  Could anyone kindly give the link to this thread from yesterday and the Mail article?

I am still fidgeting about 2nd May.

Searcher

Posts : 350
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-07-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 19.10.13 10:44

Links found on the thread "Where could Smithman have been heading?", inc. newspaper links.

Searcher

Posts : 350
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-07-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re:Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by mahlersghost on 19.10.13 10:58

Does anyone remember where it was reported that GM was stopping cars around the area and also wanted to know where the church was - and at what time of the evening?  

I cannot believe that SY would discount the Ocean Club witness statements about the time everything went tonto. Also the S Carpenter (SC) statement......

I remember Tony Bennett getting a reply letter from the nephew of a prominent Labour MP who was sat at a table with SC -  was that person ever allowed to be interviewed for a statement? If not why not? The nephew flew to PT from Gatwick but hightailed it a day earlier than booked on the 4th May.  Not that I'm implying any guilt in this affair on his part.

mahlersghost

Posts : 41
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-01-29

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by mahlersghost on 19.10.13 11:05

Was all the sudden enthusiasm for religion because GM was concerned he may have been seen earlier going to or being near the church?

mahlersghost

Posts : 41
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-01-29

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 19.10.13 11:16

Again, from yesterday, I read on or via a thread here that a car was hired in the first week by one of T9, not GM and a journey made.   Grateful for link.

Searcher

Posts : 350
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-07-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Guest on 19.10.13 13:28

@mahlersghost wrote:Was all the sudden enthusiasm for religion because GM was concerned he may have been seen earlier going to or being near the church?
***
And did he therefore ask late night / early morning, where the church was ... ?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Mo check from timeline, with thanks to PeterMac

Post by worriedmum on 19.10.13 13:49

@PeterMac wrote:The dismissal of Tannerman has been acclaimed as opening the “Window of Opportunity” for an abduction.  
It seems to be suggested that the previous 3 minutes has somehow been expanded to an hour and a half.
But has it ?

9:06 Gerry checks the children
9:12 / 15   He then stands outside
9:13 / 16   He returns to the Tapas
9:25 After starters MO and RJO go to back to their apartments via the car park entrance.    They go first to 5D, where RJO’s daughter Evie is heard crying.  RJO enters flat, whilst MO checks inside 5B, then returns to 5D
2130 RJO remains in 5D as daughter has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance, enters, sees twins breathing . . .

It takes 1 minute to walk from the Tapas to the bottom of the stair at 5A.
1 minute to go from there to the front door of 5A / 5D / 5B  via the car park.
1 minute for both to enter 5D to tend to the crying child
1 minute to go to 5B and check child
30 seconds to return to 5D
one minute to go to the bottom of the stairs 5A
30 second to enter 5A
30 seconds to stand in the apartment and “see the twins breathing”
15 seconds to exit
One minute to return to the Tapas

total a little under 8 minutes.
In fact they allow 10 minutes

But TWO men walked across the car park, and the shutters were obviously closed.
One man walked back across the cap park - ditto
Same man entered the apartment - ditto - no slamming doors or whooshing curtains

At that point everything was OK
And it is now   2135

2140  JT (again) goes to 5D. so she crosses car park at 2142 - shutters and window obviously OK,  and no other activity, no cars moving around, no people lurking  - nothing.
2145  RJO returns to table, so he again crossed the car park at 2143.
2155 Kate raises alarm (according to the TWO handwritten timelines - altered on typed one to 2200)

So Kate must have left the table at 2150 to get to 5A, enter, check, hear slamming doors, and whooshing curtains, hurtle around, checking all rooms cupboards etc and get back to the Tapas by 2155

So the new window of opportunity is

around 5 minutes - as an absolute maximum

In this time the intruder has to
• Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or through the front door,

BUT In addition the sedation used must now be almost instantaneous, so that by the time Kate reaches the twins within 4 or 5 minutes they are already deeply unconscious, and will not rouse until 10 hours later, without after effects.  This substance must also be undetectable even by a trained anaesthetist.
There is no substance which can do this.

Well done Redwood.  Bit by bit the net is closing.


Just wondering how MO  could see the twins at all in a darkened room when the cot nearest the open door has opaque sides?


worriedmum

Posts : 1628
Reputation : 248
Join date : 2012-01-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by soundworks on 19.10.13 14:13

just looking at that picture

surely if you were an abductor the sheets would have been thrown off?

that looks how my kids when young would get out of bed or like when the wife makes the bed and always folds the corner over

soundworks

Posts : 79
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-10-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by PeterMac on 19.10.13 14:24

@worriedmum wrote:
Just wondering how MO  could see the twins at all in a darkened room when the cot nearest the open door has opaque sides?
And not only that, he is very clear that he saw the twins "breathing". So he must have been standing virtually above the nearest cot, inside the room, and remained there for some seconds to see two consecutive breaths for each one.

Unless of course he too is lying !

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by bobbin on 19.10.13 14:32

@PeterMac wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:
Just wondering how MO  could see the twins at all in a darkened room when the cot nearest the open door has opaque sides?
And not only that, he is very clear that he saw the twins "breathing". So he must have been standing virtually above the nearest cot, inside the room, and remained there for some seconds to see two consecutive breaths for each one.

Unless of course he too is lying !
He clearly must have been lying.
Maddie's bed would have been more visible than the twins cots, and Maddie herself would have been more visible than the concealing sided cots.
The door also opened on hinges on the right, therefore any light to see anything at all, would first shine on Maddie's bed, the twins's cots being obscured unless the door were fully open.
He claims he did not enter the room.
Sorry Matt Oldfield, and I hope you are looking at this site...it's time to look into the mirror and then at your wife and children and ask yourself, what is going to happen to me, to my wife, my children, and was it worth lying for those narcissistic sociopathic McCanns.

bobbin

Posts : 2030
Reputation : 119
Join date : 2011-12-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by StraightThinking on 19.10.13 15:08

@PeterMac wrote:The dismissal of Tannerman has been acclaimed as opening the “Window of Opportunity” for an abduction.  
It seems to be suggested that the previous 3 minutes has somehow been expanded to an hour and a half.
But has it ?
PeterMac, this is the sort of time analysis that is so sadly lacking in the case and I recognise your longstanding input to the discussion
I agree that the dismissal of Bundleman leaves a tiny window of opportunity, but for a different reason
Three independent witnesses said they heard that Maddie was missing between 21.15 and 21.30, one of them cited 21.20 as the time when he was told
Also, Tapas Bar staff say the table was empty by 21.40, which makes the Tapas timeline wrong
If that is the case, the abductor couldn't have struck later than 21.20 anyway, and the timing of the checks needs revising

StraightThinking

Posts : 180
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-10-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by PeterMac on 19.10.13 17:32

Thanks for that.
In most of my pieces I try to adopt the old detectives ploy of pretending that I believe the Tapas group and the McCanns are telling the truth -
and see where it takes us logically.

It was their own timelines which trapped them into the one minute and twenty seconds
And now their own timeline traps them into the one I think I have identified.

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re timeframe

Post by mahlersghost on 19.10.13 18:01

The overall picture - from non T9 statements -  is of the Tapas Bar, from post 9.30ish or earlier, of being devoid of the T9 except for DW.  S Carpenter and partner had left by 9.15 so who else was left of the diners after 9.30 to give credence/witness to the McCann etc comings and goings until 10pm?

Am I correct or unaware of witness statements backing them up?R

mahlersghost

Posts : 41
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2013-01-29

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by ultimaThule on 19.10.13 22:43

Below is part of a response I posted earlier on cocker spaniel's thread: http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8198-textusa-re-crimewatch

Any reconstruction based on the accounts of the McCanns and their 7 friends is unlikely to be representative of the truth and whether doors open left or right, corners vanish, sandals or trainers are worn, etc, etc, is immaterial. 
 
What matters is the order in which the group claim to have played musical chairs around a square, round, or oblong table, and what time each of them stood up to go outside of the Tapas Bar and what time they returned and sat down during the period between 8.30-10pm on the night of May 3rd 2007.

Andy Redwood's 'deconstruction' has shown that, based on the statements of the McCanns and their 7 friends, Madeleine could only have been taken from her bed between 9.50 and 9.55pm on that night.


By making live appearances in the company of Andy Redwood on Crimewatch and its German equivalent during and after the mock-u-mentary segments were shown, the McCanns' have given tacit confirmation of their story that Gerry was the last person to see his eldest daughter in her bed, that Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'Brien left the table together c9.30pm, that Matthew Oldfield had their consent to enter 5A for the purpose of checking on their 3 children, and that KM discovered Madeleine missing c10pm. 

In laying out their stall in this manner, the McCanns' are now faced with the prospect of explaining why Madeleine's disappearance was known to others outside of the 'Tapas 9' as early as 9.20pm and why, with the exception of one of their friends, their table was empty after 9.30pm.  

No doubt the McCanns will be able to supply another of Madeleine's books for the group to concoct a timeline for 9.30pm until 10.50pm when her disappearance was reported by phone to the police. 

It seems to me the window of opportunity in this case has opened and closed more times than the bedroom door and, at the time of writing, it appears there are 80 minutes from 9.30pm onwards during which any one, or more, of 9 known individuals could have taken Madeleine from her bed.

ultimaThule

Posts : 3355
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2013-09-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by Searcher on 19.10.13 23:40

.. and could it have been 'a couple', ultimaThule  - "they have taken her"?

Searcher

Posts : 350
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-07-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Timeline changed in Madeleine hunt

Post by ultimaThule on 20.10.13 0:06

It most certainly could have been a couple, Searcher, or any of her aunts and uncles could have taken Madeleine for a walk and lost her somewhere, as you do.  

In the time available, and given the twins were sleeping soundly, the entire group could have taken her for a trip round the hills in a charabanc, or her father and Uncle David could have taken her for a drive in the small grey car which was seen parked near her bedroom window c9.20pm. 

Andy Redwood and his team are no doubt aware that, before the police were called, increasing numbers of people were joining the hunt for Madeleine but no-one was keeping any account of who was searching and where they were concentrating their efforts at any given time.

ultimaThule

Posts : 3355
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2013-09-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum