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Has this theory been discussed?

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Has this theory been discussed?

Post by wilbeth on 10.10.13 0:14

This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by aquila on 10.10.13 0:22

@wilbeth wrote:This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.
Wow Wilbeth, you are a very brave person to suggest all of that being a serving police officer.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by ultimaThule on 10.10.13 0:24

@wilbeth wrote:This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.
This theory, together with numerous other variations on the same theme, have been discussed umpteen times in umpteen threads although the notion of the gruesome twosome paying someone to remove their daughter's body is something of a novel twist.

This thread may be of interest to you: http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6263-the-last-confirmed-location-of-the-child-believed-to-be-madeleine-mccann-apart-from-t9-was-at-the-creche

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by marconi on 10.10.13 0:36

[quote="ultimaThule"][quote="wilbeth"]This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.[/quote]This theory, together with numerous other variations on the same theme, have been discussed umpteen times in umpteen threads although the notion of the gruesome twosome paying someone to remove their daughter's body is something of a novel twist.

This thread may be of interest to you: [url=http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6263-the-last-confirmed-location-of-the-child-believed-to-be-madeleine-mccann-apart-from-t9-was-at-the]http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6263-the-last-confirmed-location-of-the-child-believed-to-be-madeleine-mccann-apart-from-t9-was-at-the[/url][/quote]

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by aquila on 10.10.13 0:44

@marconi wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@wilbeth wrote:This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.
This theory, together with numerous other variations on the same theme, have been discussed umpteen times in umpteen threads although the notion of the gruesome twosome paying someone to remove their daughter's body is something of a novel twist.

This thread may be of interest to you: http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6263-the-last-confirmed-location-of-the-child-believed-to-be-madeleine-mccann-apart-from-t9-was-at-the-creche
My father-in-law used to say: if you want something to be well done, you have to do it yourself.
Paying a man to get rid of the body for them?
-Could you please come along and make a body disappear?
-A dead pet?
- No exactly. A dead child.
Concealing of the body was Gerry's responsibility. He had to be sure that everything was ok.
Imagine the McCanns being blackmaild for the rest of their lives.
@Admin/Mods

I completely object to this post from marconi. This is bringing the forum into disrepute.

@marconi, your post is totally offensive.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by Hobs on 10.10.13 0:48

The only problem with your theory Wilbeth is, if she had died earlier  everything she came into contact with would have been contaminated by cadaverine which is strong enough to be detected by a cadaver dog after approx 90 mins. This would mean if she was placed on her bed anytime after 90 mins then the cadaver dogs would have reacted.

Although the weather wasn't scorching or freezing, after a day or so  the smell of decomp would be noticeable as a vague smell of something off if nothing else unless she was stored somewhere cold such as a fridge or freezer which would have slowed down the decomp somewhat. One would also have to assume she would have been wrapped in something to prevent leakage, such as binbags etc, if in a blue bag again there would be traces inside the bag and possibly outside.

The bag would have to be disposed of as given the decomp process and smell it would have been unusable.

paying someione to move the body is an interesting idea, however given they were skint ( enough to need family and friends to help pay their bills and using the fund to pay their mortgage twice) how could they afford to pay someone to move her body and why pay someone given  it is one more person in the know who could at a later date either confess their role to police or blackmail them and who could even after being bought off go to the police and spill the beans. there was no guarantee at the time that money would come in in the amounts it did either.

The answer lies within the gruesomes and the tapas 7, whatever it was they could not allow an autopsy to be performed otherwise they could have claimed she died at some point  and they only found out when they went to wake her the next day, claiming when they checked she looked asleep like the twins.
If drugs were found they could have claimed she found them and ate them thinking it was candy.
 A hair strand test could indicate if sedation had occurred over a period of time which would take some explaining.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by wilbeth on 10.10.13 0:57

Good point Hobs. I guess it depends on how much earlier. Could she have been dying? Could it have been that day. Maybe they didn't pay anyone - maybe they have enough "contacts" someone was brought in? Could it have been someone they know well? There was long ago mention of a fridge that was removed, but that has since long gone that I cannot remember whether or not that was true. I vaguely recall it was on Gerry's blog - but then removed. I'm probably wrong. As whether or not they would want someone blackmailing for the rest of their lives - they seem to date have a good hold over the Tapas 7??

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by aquila on 10.10.13 1:02

@wilbeth wrote:Good point Hobs. I guess it depends on how much earlier. Could she have been dying? Could it have been that day. Maybe they didn't pay anyone - maybe they have enough "contacts" someone was brought in? Could it have been someone they know well? There was long ago mention of a fridge that was removed, but that has since long gone that I cannot remember whether or not that was true. I vaguely recall it was on Gerry's blog - but then removed. I'm probably wrong. As whether or not they would want someone blackmailing for the rest of their lives - they seem to date have a good hold over the Tapas 7??
Wilbeth, are you comfortable sharing your theory being a serving police officer? I should have thought a serving police officer would have remained anonymous (i.e. not revealing they are a serving police officer) to discuss such matters.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by marconi on 10.10.13 1:11

test

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by marconi on 10.10.13 1:21

@aquila wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@wilbeth wrote:This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.
This theory, together with numerous other variations on the same theme, have been discussed umpteen times in umpteen threads although the notion of the gruesome twosome paying someone to remove their daughter's body is something of a novel twist.

This thread may be of interest to you: http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6263-the-last-confirmed-location-of-the-child-believed-to-be-madeleine-mccann-apart-from-t

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by marconi on 10.10.13 1:23

mmmmmmmmmmm

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by ultimaThule on 10.10.13 1:23

Is it too late for you to edit it, marconi?  If not, there should be an edit button visible when you view it.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by tigger on 10.10.13 5:18

@wilbeth wrote:This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.
You must have missed a few pages from the files.

There was no cadaver odour on he bed.

They were not at all happy to take a polygraph test -  you must'nt believe tabloid headlines -  they set conditions which would have made the test pointless. This is on the evidence of the expert who would have conducted the test.


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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by plebgate on 10.10.13 8:51

@tigger wrote:
@wilbeth wrote:This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.
You must have missed a few pages from the files.

There was no cadaver odour on he bed.

They were not at all happy to take a polygraph test -  you must'nt believe tabloid headlines -  they set conditions which would have made the test pointless. This is on the evidence of the expert who would have conducted the test.


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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by PeterMac on 10.10.13 9:09

And JT said it was Murat, and then said it wasn't.
And Gerry refused to say whether he knew Murat . . .

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by Woofer on 10.10.13 9:54

@wilbeth wrote:This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.
I think your theory is plausible in part Wilbeth but she couldn`t have been placed on the bed because there was no cadaver odour there.  But possibly in the pink blanket then in bin liners then in the blue bag then in the wardrobe.

David Payne also said that Gerry was staring at the wardrobe crying out `she`s gone, she`s gone`.

But if someone collected her in the blue bag, it means Jane Tanner`s description is wrong.

Marconi has a point in that whoever took her away would forever be able to blackmail the McCanns. (Can`t see what`s wrong with her post btw).

I think Gerry had alerted help before 10pm on 3rd May.  Its a bit far fetched for Marconi to allude to it being a dead pet collector but its quite plausible that Gerry made contact with someone in the UK establishment to come and get Maddie`s body out of here or else.  And yes, they were waiting for her `to be taken`. All IMO.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by Ayniia on 10.10.13 12:25

@PeterMac wrote:And JT said it was Murat, and then said it wasn't.
And Gerry refused to say whether he knew Murat . . .
Spot on, as usual, PM. IMO the fact that Gerry didn't answered that particular question is very telling. Was he trying to protect himself in case they would have to take a polygraph?

@Woofer wrote:
But if someone collected her in the blue bag, it means Jane Tanner`s description is wrong.

Marconi has a point in that whoever took her away would forever be able to blackmail the McCanns. (Can`t see what`s wrong with her post btw).

I think Gerry had alerted help before 10pm on 3rd May.  Its a bit far fetched for Marconi to allude to it being a dead pet collector but its quite plausible that Gerry made contact with someone in the UK establishment to come and get Maddie`s body out of here or else.  And yes, they were waiting for her `to be taken`. All IMO.
One thing that makes me disagree with this is that if anyone outside Team Mccann was involved surely there would be no cadaverine in the scenic, any other car could've been used? All IMHO.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by jeanmonroe on 10.10.13 13:32

Post deleted..........accusatory and imo libellous.  Please be very careful when posting not to accuse people, even if it your opinion, it is being posted on a public forum for all to read.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by galena on 10.10.13 14:57

@wilbeth wrote:This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.
This is possibly the most popular theory of them all - bar them paying someone to take her out of the apartment. One thing I have tried - without success - to find out is - when was the last time Madeleine was seen alive by someone other than her parents or the Tapas 7?  Interesting point about Kate's words 'they've taken her' which also suggest to me that she might not have known what was going to happen.  (And didn't Gerry immediately begin shouting - perhaps to cover up Kate's unfortunate choice of words?).  For the natural thing to say if you returned to find your child gone would be 'She's gone' not 'They've taken her' ...

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by Ayniia on 10.10.13 15:52

@galena wrote:
@wilbeth wrote:This is just a thought

What if Madeleine died earlier in the holiday but was still in the apartment until the night of the 3rd (hence the cadaver odour in a cupboard). On the Thursday night she is placed into her bed - and a man did go into 5a and take her - because the McCann's had paid someone to remove her body that night for them to move again a few weeks later. The repeated checks were to see if she had gone yet? Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. The twins would have been heavily sedated to ensure they didn't wake when the strange man came in to take their sister away. As far as the twins are concerned in the preceding days - they could just have been told she was sleeping or is poorly. At two years of age they would accept that. Might explain Kate's slip of the tongue when she said "They've taken her". Might too explain the Smith's sighting and also other independent witnesses that have come forward stating that a man was seen watching the McCann's apartment. 

Might too explain why they are happy to have a lie detector - but they want to choose the questions. Also why they weren't there at "the moment she was taken" and all the other 'pat' phrases that they come out with.
This is possibly the most popular theory of them all - bar them paying someone to take her out of the apartment. One thing I have tried - without success - to find out is - when was the last time Madeleine was seen alive by someone other than her parents or the Tapas 7?  Interesting point about Kate's words 'they've taken her' which also suggest to me that she might not have known what was going to happen.  (And didn't Gerry immediately begin shouting - perhaps to cover up Kate's unfortunate choice of words?).  For the natural thing to say if you returned to find your child gone would be 'She's gone' not 'They've taken her' ...
Some things that IMO don't make sense...
-If the "body " was in the apt for days, even just for one, would they risk going out and leaving it there, risking a robbery happening or a cleaner going in, I don't know...
-Why (hypothetically ) paying someone to remove the "body " and not use the same person afterwards to move it, saving them from having the cadaver smell on the scenic?
-Why would someone risk " Perhaps Jane did see someone carrying a deceased little girl - hence she appeared out cold whilst being carried and wouldn't need a blanket despite being so cold. " walking around with a body? If that's the case, it's one more reason to cover it IMO (I'm not doubting the Smith's sighting )
-Also if someone else was used, it could've genuinely look like an abduction and a better more plausible story would be at hand, because someone had in fact walked in 5A and taken something...
All IMHO as usual.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by jeanmonroe on 10.10.13 16:24

Ayniia wrote:
"....because someone had in fact walked in 5A and taken something"...
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But took 'nothing of value', apparently!

Don't know how much Madeleine was actually 'valued' at, by her parents, but at least they got to keep their cameras, watches, wallets etc.

So no REAL harm done!

Phew!

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by Guest on 10.10.13 16:27

Cameras, watches, exetera

Which they had all left behind in their thoughtfully left unlocked apartments

Now, my dear Watson, your conclusions please...

Guest
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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by Ayniia on 10.10.13 16:51

@galena wrote:One thing I have tried - without success - to find out is - when was the last time Madeleine was seen alive by someone other than her parents or the Tapas 7?

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Ayniia

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by ultimaThule on 10.10.13 16:56

@Portia wrote:Cameras, watches, exetera

Which they had all left behind in their thoughtfully left unlocked apartments

Now, my dear Watson, your conclusions please...
After they had been warned by Mark Warner staff on arrival that there had recently been spate of burglaries in the area.  

This information has been mentioned on this site before but doesn't appear to be recorded in any of the 'official' files/statements.

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Re: Has this theory been discussed?

Post by galena on 10.10.13 19:27

@Ayniia wrote:
@galena wrote:One thing I have tried - without success - to find out is - when was the last time Madeleine was seen alive by someone other than her parents or the Tapas 7?
Thanks for the link!  I'll have a look.

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