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'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

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'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.10.13 9:04

Both DCI Andy Redwood and the BBC Crimewatch producers have promised us evidence on 14 October that will not only be 'new' but also 'substantive'.

This sounds even better than the words used by the chief of the Portuguese Police following the archiving of the Madeleine McCann investigation. Any evidence, he said, would need to be 'new and credible' to justify the re-opening of the investigation.

That raises some interesting points.

Do the Portuguese Police already know what this 'new and substantive' evidence is?

If they do, it doesn't appear that they have already re-opened their investigation yet, despite claims on the British side that 'we are working very closley together' etc. etc.

If they don't already know, i.e. if Redwood has kept it from them for weeks and is revealing all for the BBC broadcast, maybe the Portuguese Police will be tuned into BBC Crimewatch at 9.00pm Monday, with police notebooks and translators at the ready, as DCI Andy Redwood unfolds to an expectant British TV audience of millions the 'new and substantive' evidence he has been holding back for the last few weeks.

Assuming that DCI Redwood and the BBC are not exaggerating by one jot the strength of this 'new and substantive' evidence, then surely the Chief of the Portuguese Police, on the conclusion of the broadcast, will leap out of his seat, turn to his watching colleagues in the Police boardromo, and exclaim:

"That's it! Hurrah for the British detectives! At last they have found the new and credible evidence that we've been missing since July 2008! Over five years! Men - action stations! Re-open the investigation tonight!"

Or - may be not.

Anyway, if anyone doesn't know the precise meaning of 'substantive' yet, here's what the online dictionaries tell us:

sub·stan·tive

/ˈsəbstəntiv/

adjective

adjective: substantive

1. having a firm basis in reality and therefore important, meaningful, or considerable.

"there is no substantive evidence for the efficacy of these drugs"

2. having a separate and independent existence.

• (of a dye) not needing a mordant.

3. (of law) defining rights and duties as opposed to giving the rules by which such things are established.

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by PeterMac on 09.10.13 9:28

And of course it is always better to wait for a couple of weeks, (or even years in Edgars' Helish Lair case) after telling the abductor / paedo / bundleman that you are coming to get him, so he had better
1   Stay exactly where he is for the next two weeks and
2   Look after Madeleine until they get there

It is totally unbelievable. Ludicrous in fact.

IF anyone had evidence which would lead to Madeleine's discovery and failed to act on it IMMEDIATELY they would be guilty of the most serious professional misconduct.

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 9:47

@PeterMac wrote:And of course it is always better to wait for a couple of weeks, (or even years in Edgars' Helish Lair case) after telling the abductor / paedo / bundleman that you are coming to get him, so he had better
1   Stay exactly where he is for the next two weeks and
2   Look after Madeleine until they get there


It is totally unbelievable. Ludicrous in fact.

IF anyone had evidence which would lead to Madeleine's discovery and failed to act on it IMMEDIATELY they would be guilty of the most serious professional misconduct.
laugh

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 9:48

@PeterMac wrote:And of course it is always better to wait for a couple of weeks, (or even years in Edgars' Helish Lair case) after telling the abductor / paedo / bundleman that you are coming to get him, so he had better
1   Stay exactly where he is for the next two weeks and
2   Look after Madeleine until they get there

It is totally unbelievable. Ludicrous in fact.

IF anyone had evidence which would lead to Madeleine's discovery and failed to act on it IMMEDIATELY they would be guilty of the most serious professional misconduct.
and of hampering the Search

Next question: when will the McCs start sueing the Beeb a/o AR/SY?

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by russiandoll on 09.10.13 9:48

If Kate presents this SUBSTANTIVE NEW EVIDENCE at the libel trial....then how could Portugal not reopen the case? [ It can have no bearing on the libel case as far as I can see, as GA is on trial for writing what he believed to be true as far as his own investigation went. The judge will tell her so, after she has spoken, but it will be on record so surely the police will HAVE TO REOPEN THE CASE?]

  I still think the papers are presuming this based on what SY have said. Have they seen the written submission presented by ID to the court?

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Serious professional misconduct

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.10.13 9:52

@PeterMac wrote:And of course it is always better to wait for a couple of weeks, (or even years in Edgars' Helish Lair case) after telling the abductor / paedo / bundleman that you are coming to get him, so he had better
1   Stay exactly where he is for the next two weeks and
2   Look after Madeleine until they get there

It is totally unbelievable. Ludicrous in fact.

IF anyone had evidence which would lead to Madeleine's discovery and failed to act on it IMMEDIATELY they would be guilty of the most serious professional misconduct.


But could it not be said with equal force that to do any of the following would also constitute 'serious professional misconduct'?

1. To run an investigation which sets aside an obvious line of enquiry in favour of other less promising lines of enquiry

2. To use a Crimewatch broadcast (or any other occasion for that matter) to broadcast details sufficient to identify a possible suspect who may be holding a missing child, thus placing the missing child at risk

3. To place before the British public, in a Crimewatch broadcast to be seen by millions, misleading information (if the broadcast goes ahead and that is what Redwood goes on to do with his reconstruction and what he says in the broadcast) about a high-profile missing child case

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 9:53

@PeterMac wrote:And of course it is always better to wait for a couple of weeks, (or even years in Edgars' Helish Lair case) after telling the abductor / paedo / bundleman that you are coming to get him, so he had better
1   Stay exactly where he is for the next two weeks and
2   Look after Madeleine until they get there

It is totally unbelievable. Ludicrous in fact.

IF anyone had evidence which would lead to Madeleine's discovery and failed to act on it IMMEDIATELY they would be guilty of the most serious professional misconduct.
If Scotland Yard believes Maddie to be alive and being held captive somewhere, it certainly seems very wrong to delay any appeal or action that could help find her. If they believe she is dead, on the other hand, delaying the appeal is less reprehensible but does, as you say, give those guilty a warning in which they may destroy evidence and attempt to hide. Also, if Scotland Yard is convinced Madeleine is dead, then the fund - with its first objective of 'securing Madeleine's safe return to her family' - really should be wrapped up.

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.10.13 9:55

@russiandoll wrote:If Kate presents this SUBSTANTIVE NEW EVIDENCE at the libel trial....then how could Portugal not reopen the case? [ It can have no bearing on the libel case as far as I can see, as GA is on trial for writing what he believed to be true as far as his own investigation went. The judge will tell her so, after she has spoken, but it will be on record so surely the police will HAVE TO REOPEN THE CASE?]

I still think the papers are presuming this based on what SY have said. Have they seen the written submission presented by ID to the court?
I think the point is that the BBC and DCI Andy Redwood, for whatever reason, may be 'hyping up' their so-called 'new and substantive' evidence.

When the Portuguese judicial authorities and police see it, they may not think it to lives up to Redwood's claims.

In fact I think they could end up laughing at the broadcast.

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 10:56

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:If Kate presents this SUBSTANTIVE NEW EVIDENCE at the libel trial....then how could Portugal not reopen the case? [ It can have no bearing on the libel case as far as I can see, as GA is on trial for writing what he believed to be true as far as his own investigation went. The judge will tell her so, after she has spoken, but it will be on record so surely the police will HAVE TO REOPEN THE CASE?]

I still think the papers are presuming this based on what SY have said. Have they seen the written submission presented by ID to the court?
I think the point is that the BBC and DCI Andy Redwood, for whatever reason, may be 'hyping up' their so-called 'new and substantive' evidence.

When the Portuguese judicial authorities and police see it, they may not think it to lives up to Redwood's claims.

In fact I think they could end up laughing at the broadcast.
Or: re-opening their own investigation, arresting the McCs when they leave Judge Melo y Castros witness stand

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.10.13 11:00

I have just learnt this from the Daily Express:

Brave Kate [etc. etc.]...her tormentor, detective Goncalo Amaral...The former GP is expected to use new evidence unearthed by Scotland Yard to kill off Portuguese police smears once and for all. British officers are set to unveil “fresh, substantive” material during a Crimewatch TV special on the case to be screened on Monday.

It comes as detectives revealed they are closer than ever to discovering what happened to Madeleine...Kate and husband Gerry, 45, hope a targeted appeal will lead to a significant breakthrough.

And the information could shatter the claims made against Madeleine’s parents by the former police chief.


So, within this short Express snippet, we are told that the new evidence will be:

* new

* fresh

* substantive

and

* significant.

But what has been revealed by the Express today is that, in addition to all of those, it could be...

...s h a t t e r i n g

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Cristobell on 09.10.13 11:10

@Tony Bennett wrote:I have just learnt this from the Daily Express:

Brave Kate [etc. etc.]...her tormentor, detective Goncalo Amaral...The former GP is expected to use new evidence unearthed by Scotland Yard to kill off Portuguese police smears once and for all. British officers are set to unveil “fresh, substantive” material during a Crimewatch TV special on the case to be screened on Monday.

It comes as detectives revealed they are closer than ever to discovering what happened to Madeleine...Kate and husband Gerry, 45, hope a targeted appeal will lead to a significant breakthrough.

And the information could shatter the claims made against Madeleine’s parents by the former police chief.


So, within this short Express snippet, we are told that the new evidence will be:

* new

* fresh

* substantive

and

* significant.

But what has been revealed by the Express today is that, in addition to all of those, it could be...

...s h a t t e r i n g
Dear Lord, lets hope not, Tony.

But before, we write it all off as a whitewash, lets bear in mind Isabel didn't show up at the Court yesterday, following Kate's dramatic request to take the stand.  2 +2 =  ?   I think there may be trouble at mill, whatever evidence Kate may have for Monday, Isabel clearly doesn't think it is enough to save them.  At the last session, she took out her frustration on AG.  I think she is at breaking point, and we may see a change of lawyer, if thats possible.

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what are they waiting for?

Post by worriedmum on 09.10.13 11:22

@Tony Bennett wrote:I have just learnt this from the Daily Express:

Brave Kate [etc. etc.]...her tormentor, detective Goncalo Amaral...The former GP is expected to use new evidence unearthed by Scotland Yard to kill off Portuguese police smears once and for all. British officers are set to unveil “fresh, substantive” material during a Crimewatch TV special on the case to be screened on Monday.

It comes as detectives revealed they are closer than ever to discovering what happened to Madeleine...Kate and husband Gerry, 45, hope a targeted appeal will lead to a significant breakthrough.

And the information could shatter the claims made against Madeleine’s parents by the former police chief.


So, within this short Express snippet, we are told that the new evidence will be:

* new

* fresh

* substantive

and

* significant.

But what has been revealed by the Express today is that, in addition to all of those, it could be...

.s h a t t e r i n g



If this is true
, WHAT ON EARTH ARE THEY WAITING FOR?
Why the bells and trumpets, the build up and speculation? Madeleine is still missing and if a case is to be made that she is alive, tell me please
WHY WOULD YOU WAIT?  Logically, you are alerting an abductor if she is still alive, and putting her in danger.

So if they are not afraid of putting her in further danger, are they saying she has died? And if so, why are they not saying so now?

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 11:30

@Cristobell wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:I have just learnt this from the Daily Express:

Brave Kate [etc. etc.]...her tormentor, detective Goncalo Amaral...The former GP is expected to use new evidence unearthed by Scotland Yard to kill off Portuguese police smears once and for all. British officers are set to unveil “fresh, substantive” material during a Crimewatch TV special on the case to be screened on Monday.

It comes as detectives revealed they are closer than ever to discovering what happened to Madeleine...Kate and husband Gerry, 45, hope a targeted appeal will lead to a significant breakthrough.

And the information could shatter the claims made against Madeleine’s parents by the former police chief.


So, within this short Express snippet, we are told that the new evidence will be:

* new

* fresh

* substantive

and

* significant.

But what has been revealed by the Express today is that, in addition to all of those, it could be...

...s h a t t e r i n g
Dear Lord, lets hope not, Tony.

But before, we write it all off as a whitewash, lets bear in mind Isabel didn't show up at the Court yesterday, following Kate's dramatic request to take the stand.  2 +2 =  ?   I think there may be trouble at mill, whatever evidence Kate may have for Monday, Isabel clearly doesn't think it is enough to save them.  At the last session, she took out her frustration on AG.  I think she is at breaking point, and we may see a change of lawyer, if thats possible.
Could be. First she apparently advised them against appearing, bragging in the media that she could win the case without them. 
When her witnesses -and what a sorry lot of paid flunkeys a/o family sympathizers they turned out to be- turned the tables on her boast, K&G probably wised up and moved themselves into position to salvage what's left. ID's courtroom performance was so weak and antagonising both her own witnesses and the Judge, that K&G would do wise to have her replaced by someone with a more suave courtroom manner. IMO

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by PeterMac on 09.10.13 11:33

It is a bit like planing an appeal for witnesses - in 6 months time !

( By the way, has Edgar ever looked for his Hellish Lair ?
"Within 10 miles of PdL" means the area to be searched is pi times 10 squared = 314 square miles.
But half of that is in the sea, so we have 150 square miles
7 years have 2555 days, so we only need to search 1,200 square yards each day. Less than a third of an acre.
One person could do that before coffee time. A lot of it is town and golf courses - all lawless of course, but sadly it includes the local Police Station !

Is he a total incompetent buffoon, or another con-man ? I cant make my mind up.)

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by PeterMac on 09.10.13 11:35

@Portia wrote:. . . K&G would do wise to have her replaced by someone with a more suave courtroom manner. IMO
Like the gibbering pink one !
He knows all the answers before the questions are asked.
He never speaks on behalf of his clients, it is always on his own initiative and on his own authority

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 11:39

Sky News, Martin Brunt saying police to relase new E fit of a man seen near apartment.

No link yet

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 11:41

Cherry Blossom wrote:Sky News, Martin Brunt saying police to relase new E fit of a man seen near apartment.

No link yet
Thanks CB here is his tweet.....




martinbrunt@skymartinbrunt 11m
#madeleine Scot Yard to issue e-fit of new suspect in McCann case, man seen near holiday flat. New appeal for witnesses

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Cristobell on 09.10.13 11:42

Cherry Blossom wrote:Sky News, Martin Brunt saying police to relase new E fit of a man seen near apartment.

No link yet
The one in Spain or Portugal?

I do hope some of the wacky mccann artists pre-empt this was e-fits of their own big grin

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 11:43

candyfloss wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:Sky News, Martin Brunt saying police to relase new E fit of a man seen near apartment.

No link yet
Thanks CB here is his tweet.....




martinbrunt@skymartinbrunt 11m
#madeleine Scot Yard to issue e-fit of new suspect in McCann case, man seen near holiday flat. New appeal for witnesses
Madeleine McCann Police Probe Possible Suspect

British detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are releasing a new picture of a possible suspect.
More follows...

http://news.sky.com/story/1152167/madeleine-mccann-police-probe-possible-suspect

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.10.13 11:44

@PeterMac wrote:Edgar...Is he a total incompetent buffoon, or another con-man?   I can't make my mind up.  
Do you have to?

Make up your mind, I mean.

Could he not be both?

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by aiyoyo on 09.10.13 11:45

@admin wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:And of course it is always better to wait for a couple of weeks, (or even years in Edgars' Helish Lair case) after telling the abductor / paedo / bundleman that you are coming to get him, so he had better
1   Stay exactly where he is for the next two weeks and
2   Look after Madeleine until they get there


It is totally unbelievable. Ludicrous in fact.

IF anyone had evidence which would lead to Madeleine's discovery and failed to act on it IMMEDIATELY they would be guilty of the most serious professional misconduct.
laugh
big grin Indeed.
And, assuming the abductor has kept his SIMS card for 6+ year, now it's time for him to throw it away, in case its ping brings SY to his door (hmm..I mean cave).

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 11:52

Madeleine McCann Police Probe Possible Suspect

British detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are releasing a new picture of a possible suspect.

The then four-year-old vanished from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3, 2007, as her parents dined at a nearby restaurant with friends.
Police want to question a man, who according to new witnesses, was seen somewhere around the apartment at the relevant time.

Sky's Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said: "In the next couple of days Scotland Yard are going to put out an artist's impression - an e-fit - of this man, who is clearly being regarded as a suspect - although Scotland Yard tell me that until they identify him and question him, they really don't know where he fits into this jigsaw that they are increasingly putting together.

"On Monday, they are going to be talking more fully about this man
"They will give some idea of what witnesses have said about his behaviour, but he fits into the picture."
More follows... 

http://news.sky.com/story/1152167/madeleine-mccann-police-probe-possible-suspect

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by aiyoyo on 09.10.13 11:55

@Tony Bennett wrote:I have just learnt this from the Daily Express:

Brave Kate [etc. etc.]...her tormentor, detective Goncalo Amaral...The former GP is expected to use new evidence unearthed by Scotland Yard to kill off Portuguese police smears once and for all. British officers are set to unveil “fresh, substantive” material during a Crimewatch TV special on the case to be screened on Monday.

It comes as detectives revealed they are closer than ever to discovering what happened to Madeleine...Kate and husband Gerry, 45, hope a targeted appeal will lead to a significant breakthrough.

And the information could shatter the claims made against Madeleine’s parents by the former police chief.


So, within this short Express snippet, we are told that the new evidence will be:

* new

* fresh

* substantive

and

* significant.

But what has been revealed by the Express today is that, in addition to all of those, it could be...

...s h a t t e r i n g
The SY buzz words seem to be *new* or *fresh* and *susbstantive* evidence.
Should we live in great hope that they'll produce a *new* or *fresh* and substantive (tangible) abductor for a change, instead of NATO (no action, talk only)?
It would be SHATTERING indeed if 3 years of labourious works yielded only unfulfilled expectation.
If no abductor is found, would the Mccanns sue Redwood and his incompetent lots for bungling the Review?

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by tiny on 09.10.13 11:58

Cherry Blossom wrote:Madeleine McCann Police Probe Possible Suspect

British detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are releasing a new picture of a possible suspect.

The then four-year-old vanished from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3, 2007, as her parents dined at a nearby restaurant with friends.
Police want to question a man, who according to new witnesses, was seen somewhere around the apartment at the relevant time.

Sky's Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said: "In the next couple of days Scotland Yard are going to put out an artist's impression - an e-fit - of this man, who is clearly being regarded as a suspect - although Scotland Yard tell me that until they identify him and question him, they really don't know where he fits into this jigsaw that they are increasingly putting together.

"On Monday, they are going to be talking more fully about this man
"They will give some idea of what witnesses have said about his behaviour, but he fits into the picture."
More follows... 

http://news.sky.com/story/1152167/madeleine-mccann-police-probe-possible-suspect
wft why are sy still going down this route, after all this time there is a new witness,jesus wept

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Re: 'Substantive' evidence promised on 14 October

Post by aiyoyo on 09.10.13 12:02

Good grief, they do have an abductor in mind after all!

And, not the same one as JT!

I wonder what this new & fresh one is going to evolve to eventually? A Pippa lookalike?

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