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OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by Shrike on 08.10.13 23:38

Further to Mr Bennett's post this statement from today's hearing seems to suggest the same thing. Portuguese seem no closer to re-opening the case and a long way from a close working relationship between the forces. If true that this is the Met's remit I find it stunningly shocking:
 

Jerry Lawton@JerryLawton 36m
Flores says `prophetic and dogmatic vision' behind current SY #McCann probe. UK cops `only putting forward the hypothesis of abduction'

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by russiandoll on 08.10.13 23:42

It would appear that DCI Redwood was handed a poisoned chalice, without the command from on high SY would not have taken the step to review the case.

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by tasprin on 08.10.13 23:44

@russiandoll wrote:It would appear that DCI Redwood was handed a poisoned chalice, without the command from on high SY would not have taken the step to review the case.
No wonder he always looks shell-shocked.

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by Shrike on 08.10.13 23:46

@russiandoll wrote:It would appear that DCI Redwood was handed a poisoned chalice, without the command from on high SY would not have taken the step to review the case.
Precisely, so the million dollar question is, "who, or what, are those on high protecting"?

Will we ever get to know?

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by Guest on 08.10.13 23:47

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Was it Paiva that reiterated in court today that the current investigation by SY is under the remit from the government (Home Office) to investigate from the abduction perspective only?  If this is really the case, it does explain a lot of the blarney Andy Redwood is coming out with recently.  And it would mean the root of the corruption/whitewash stems from Teresa May and David Cameron (under persuasion from Rebeka Brooks). IMO there is still one hell of a lot of dirt to come out from that direction.
 Woofer, I think this is incorrect.

The way it worked out in practice was that Dr Kate McCann wrote a book to be published and serialised by the Sun and then the McCanns demanded a new review and then Rupert Murdoch told Rebekah Brooks who told ["persuaded"]  David Cameron who told Theresa May who told the then Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police (the recent but not lamented former Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson) to 'hold a review'.

After that it was the Metropolitan Police (Scotland Yard) themselves (not the government) who were left to decide their own precise remit - and just to remind everyone of the exact wording of it, it was (as revealed in answer to a Freedom of Information Act request):

“The investigative review is intended to collate, record and analyse what has gone before. It is to examine the case and seek to determine, (as if the abduction occurred in the UK) what additional, new investigative approaches we would take and which can assist the Portuguese authorities in progressing the matter…”

As an aside, it doesn't look as though the remit was very successfully carried out, in that the Portuguese authorities do not seem to want to 'progress the matter'. Hence six senior British detectives somewhere in or near Faro trying to interview 41 'persons of interest', most of them in Portugal, while their 37 colleagues in the U.K. spend the next few months trying to get thousands of mobile 'phone records from a 'call dump' located in 31 separate countries - and then start 'phoning up the owners (if, six years later, they still have the same mobile 'phones) to see if they can remember anything.

If, of course, the owner of a certain mobile 'phone is, say, Herr Fritz Dachenstein of Ludwigshafen (or for that matter Frau Gretel Kuechenarbeiterin of Schoendorf-an-der-Fluss), who were holidaying in Praia da Luz at the time, but are no longer handily available on their previous mobile 'phone numbers, they will have to be traced (if they are still alive of course) and, if their new telephone number can be traced, they will be contacted by one of Redwood's men who speaks German, or if not, they will find someone who can speak German to speak to them, and then, if necessary, arrange to visit them at Ludwigshafen or Schoendorf-an-der-Fluss as appropriate.

If another person who had a mobile 'phone with him in Praia da Luz around that time is, say, Dieter van Doetinchem from, say 's Hertogenbosch in Holland, then they will go through the same exercise as above and end up needing someone who can speak Dutch, though I believe there are at least three people on here who could perhaps volunteer their services. And so on, until they have traced every single one of thousands of visitors (with mobile 'phones) in Praia da Luz in the weeks around the time Madeleine was reported missing (I think I read somewhere that the SY Review team want to look at periods both before and after the week the McCanns were there).

The dedication of Redwood and his men has me lost for words.
40 plus detectives earning around EUR/Lb 6000 per diem equals what per detective per diem? 

Lb 125 per diem?

Equals EUR/Lb 16,00 per hour?

Is that very much, by British standards?

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by nobodythereeither on 08.10.13 23:49

@Woofer wrote: I`d like to know exactly who made the decision to proceed "as if the abduction occurred in the UK" and not "as if the disappearance occurred in the UK".
Yes. So would I. A bit basic to the investigation, isn't it.

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by nobodythereeither on 08.10.13 23:55

@Shrike wrote:Portuguese seem no closer to re-opening the case and a long way from a close working relationship between the forces. If true that this is the Met's remit I find it stunningly shocking:
 

Jerry Lawton@JerryLawton 36m
Flores says `prophetic and dogmatic vision' behind current SY #McCann probe. UK cops `only putting forward the hypothesis of abduction'
I find it not only stunningly shocking, but completely incomprehensible from any logical standpoint and from what we know from what has been released into the public domain.

If there is a lot of unreleased information, then fair enough .... but then - the dogs .....

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£25.75 per hour

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.10.13 0:12

@Portia wrote:]40 plus detectives earning around EUR/Lb 6000 per diem equals what per detective per diem? 

Lb 125 per diem?

Equals EUR/Lb 16,00 per hour?

Is that very much, by British standards?
Mea culpa. In calculating the average cost of the SY investigation so far at around £6,000 per day (just over that IIRC), I was including all calendar days throughout the year, i.e. 365.

So, deduct from that 52 Saturdays: 365 - 52 = 313.

Deduct from that another 52 Sundays: 313 - 52 = 261.

Deduct from that an average 5 weeks' holiday (probably more): 261 - 25 = 236.

Deduct from that at least 9 Bank Holidays a year (it's been more than that with various Royal events in recent years): 236 - 9 = 227.

£16 per horam x 365 divided by 227 will then give the correct hourly rate: around £25.75 per hour.

(Assuming your calculation of £16 per horam pro rata is correct).

That's 30 euros 75 cents per horam at the current rate of exchange of pounds sterling ad euros.

Quod erat demnstrandum

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by ultimaThule on 09.10.13 1:36

@tasprin wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:It would appear that DCI Redwood was handed a poisoned chalice, without the command from on high SY would not have taken the step to review the case.
No wonder he always looks shell-shocked.
Wouldn't you be if you were forced to look at K&G klinging on to each other and grinning like loons on a regular basis, tasprin?  

I'd have to have a constant supply of eyeball and brain bleach to hand - speaking of which, why is her hand always superglued to her spouse's inner thigh with one carefully manicured finger pointing in the direction of  his front bottom? 

Does K8 secretly want to give Gez the finger, or is she telling us he's a big prick got a sock stuffed in his budgie pouch?  As the interpretation of mime never been my strong suit, I wish she'd spit it out smilie

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by russiandoll on 09.10.13 8:26

The bags under Andy Redwood's eyes are bigger every time he appears on t v. I feel sorry for the man, imagining the pressure he is under and IF he has been ordered from on high  " we have been told to make it go this way", against every principle of crime investigation, he must be suffering severe stress.

 It might be romantic to want him to be the hero, he and his team finally revealing the truth of this matter, but in reality....would you want to be him, knowing the obstacles in his way?

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~John F. Kennedy


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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 8:53

@russiandoll wrote:The bags under Andy Redwood's eyes are bigger every time he appears on t v. I feel sorry for the man, imagining the pressure he is under and IF he has been ordered from on high  " we have been told to make it go this way", against every principle of crime investigation, he must be suffering severe stress.

 It might be romantic to want him to be the hero, he and his team finally revealing the truth of this matter, but in reality....would you want to be him, knowing the obstacles in his way?
He should be like Amaral and quit the situation he finds himself in then so he can tell the truth. Maddie: The truth of the lie Part II

If he's taking orders from up high, knowing they are wrong, then I have no sympathy for him and he deserves his eye bags and severe stress, after all if Maddie is being held in a hellish lair in the lawless hills then no doubt she is feeling severe stress too and she'd only be 10 years old right now. And if she did die in the apartment aged just 3, spraying blood up the walls and under the floor tiles, then no doubt that wasn't a barrel of laughs for her either.

Come on DCI Redwood, grow some balls and a conscience.

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by russiandoll on 09.10.13 9:11

My comment about feeling sorry for him due to the stress he must be under was based on just that......the stress. I have no sympathy for anyone weak enough to take part in a cover up, or for putting career before justice. I would hope that despite the stress that he is a man of integrity like Amaral.

  We have not had any proof yet that Redwood is taking part in a whitewash, so until we do I will continue to feel some sympathy for a man who did not choose to be put in charge of this case, but was handed it and ordered to deal with it by the Home Secretary.

As for the Truth of the Lie part 2, a good idea indeed, and I hope that if he finds that he is being told to manipulate evidence to suit a government agenda, he will do the right thing. I do not understand why he is being criticised before anyone knows for sure what his team are doing and what their new theory is.

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             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by Woofer on 09.10.13 9:15

I wonder if there is a Mrs Redwood?  And one assumes that the 37 other detectives all have partners and families and you can`t tell me they are unaware of the cover-up.  Someone in that group must have a conscience.

Someone will blab just like the in-laws of the SAS soldier have with the MI5 involvement in Diana`s murder.

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by Guest on 09.10.13 9:23

@russiandoll wrote:My comment about feeling sorry for him due to the stress he must be under was based on just that......the stress. I have no sympathy for anyone weak enough to take part in a cover up, or for putting career before justice. I would hope that despite the stress that he is a man of integrity like Amaral.

  We have not had any proof yet that Redwood is taking part in a whitewash, so until we do I will continue to feel some sympathy for a man who did not choose to be put in charge of this case, but was handed it and ordered to deal with it by the Home Secretary.

As for the Truth of the Lie part 2, a good idea indeed, and I hope that if he finds that he is being told to manipulate evidence to suit a government agenda, he will do the right thing. I do not understand why he is being criticised before anyone knows for sure what his team are doing and what their new theory is.
For me, if he had any integrity, he wouldn't have gone on national TV, after however long it was in to the review, with a McCann approved age-progressed image of Maddie aged 9, just in time for Maddie's anniversary, saying she could be alive or sadly dead. To date, imo, he's done nothing worthy of deserving the benefit of the doubt....just as his fellow police colleagues, Call Me Stu Prior, Matt Baggott, and the balloons-letter-offerer BH-H, Jim Gamble, M W-T, Dave Edgar, and whoever it was who authorised the McCann fund should be linked to the police website etc....

I wish PeterMac was in charge of the investigation.

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by russiandoll on 09.10.13 9:32

This is a 3 year old child, who had choices made for her by adults which resulted in her coming to harm.
  She did not decide to go abroad.
  She did not decide on the childcare arrangements.
  She has vanished. Gone.

   Even if this is a scam and there is the unlikely scenario that Madeleine is alive and with others being cared for, ready to be returned at an opportune moment for the masses to celebrate a near-miracle SHE HAS BEEN AWAY FROM HER PARENTS AND SIBLINGS FOR YEARS AND WILL HAVE HAD A SOLITARY LIFE WITH LITTLE HUMAN CONTACT OR EDUCATION PRESUMABLY. SO SHE HAS BEEN HARMED.

 There is bound to be at least one person who knows how this SY investigation has been handled , who once retired [ and some of the team ARE nearing retirement age] who will leak the truth to the media.

Maddie was 3. There are parents and grandparents on this team.

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by russiandoll on 09.10.13 9:41

quote  :  "  For me, if he had any integrity, he wouldn't have gone on national TV, after however long it was in to the review, with a McCann approved age-progressed image of Maddie aged 9, just in time for Maddie's anniversary, saying she could be alive or sadly dead. To date, imo, he's done nothing worthy of deserving the benefit of the doubt....just as his fellow police colleagues, Call Me Stu Prior, Matt Baggott, and the balloons-letter-offerer BH-H, Jim Gamble, M W-T, and whoever it was who authorised the McCann fund should be linked to the police website etc....

I wish PeterMac was in charge of the investigation "

 I understand what you are saying, but if his hand is being forced, what can he do IF he is having to try and get to the truth whilst appearing to go along with a whitewash? I don't think he could say no to appearing on the programme with the parents, he is the DCI, reporting to his boss.

He can't imo possibly believe in a live findable child and wait to show an age progressed picture for months. He is duty bound to commission such an item and show it to the public as soon as he decides it will help discover the child.

 Anyway, we will have to agree to differ at this stage. You will soon read what I think of Redwood and his team if facts are altered to suit an agenda.

 I still don't understand how that can be allowed to happen unless he tells us the statements in the files were riddled with errors due to lousy translations :  that is something I find hard to believe in a case of a missing 3 year old.

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contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
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~John F. Kennedy


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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by Cristobell on 09.10.13 10:12

I agree Tony that trawling through all those phone records is above and beyond the call of duty and could potentially take many years - in fact it could be a 'holding' excuse for this case never reaching a conclusion and the secrets remaining carefully tucked away forever more.

However, it could have the effect of prompting those on the receiving end of those calls to do the right thing. Scotland Yard are kind of saying 'we will find you' - and that message is generic, it applies to anyone involved in an abduction or indeed, a cover up. I would imagine there are some very nervous people out there, some who may even be considering plea bargains.  

I think we will know definitively once the Crimewatch programme has been broadcast.

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Gary Hagland

Post by Shrike on 09.10.13 11:17

I saw this in an earlier topic on this forum from back in June:
 
Quote:
"Since then, I have spoken to Gary Hagland a number of times. In our most recent conversation, he confirmed to me once again that he had retained extensive notes on his period with the McCann Team and was writing a book about his experiences with the McCann Team. He has even sent me extracts of his book.

In 2011, he disclosed to me that he had spoken to a senior member of the Scotland Yard Review Team, Operation Grange, and was prerpared to make a full sttaemnt to them. I have no doubt in my mind that DCI Andy Redwood would have seized the opportunity to talk to him in depth and make a full witness statement."

Does anybody know if anything might have come out of this and if this could have anything to do with new evidence?

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by nobodythereeither on 09.10.13 11:20

@Shrike wrote:I saw this in an earlier topic on this forum from back in June:
 
Quote:
"Since then, I have spoken to Gary Hagland a number of times. In our most recent conversation, he confirmed to me once again that he had retained extensive notes on his period with the McCann Team and was writing a book about his experiences with the McCann Team. He has even sent me extracts of his book.

In 2011, he disclosed to me that he had spoken to a senior member of the Scotland Yard Review Team, Operation Grange, and was prerpared to make a full sttaemnt to them. I have no doubt in my mind that DCI Andy Redwood would have seized the opportunity to talk to him in depth and make a full witness statement."

Does anybody know if anything might have come out of this and if this could have anything to do with new evidence?
Sorry for my ignorance, but who is Gary Hagland? One of their PIs?

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by Shrike on 09.10.13 11:29

@nobodythereeither wrote:
@Shrike wrote:I saw this in an earlier topic on this forum from back in June:
 
Quote:
"Since then, I have spoken to Gary Hagland a number of times. In our most recent conversation, he confirmed to me once again that he had retained extensive notes on his period with the McCann Team and was writing a book about his experiences with the McCann Team. He has even sent me extracts of his book.

In 2011, he disclosed to me that he had spoken to a senior member of the Scotland Yard Review Team, Operation Grange, and was prerpared to make a full sttaemnt to them. I have no doubt in my mind that DCI Andy Redwood would have seized the opportunity to talk to him in depth and make a full witness statement."

Does anybody know if anything might have come out of this and if this could have anything to do with new evidence?
Sorry for my ignorance, but who is Gary Hagland? One of their PIs?
Yes, I believe he was identified as a member of the PI team under the "control" of the Kennedy clan. Here is a link to the forum topic that makes for some interesting reading:

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t7311-gary-hagland-the-mysterious-seventh-man-in-the-mccann-team-private-investigations?highlight=gary+hagland

If you search "Gary Hagland" on the forum you get other topics on hi,=m.

As the Met stated they had been working with information obtained from the McCanns' PI team I was wondering if something might have happened here as the topic I quoted from was suggestive that it could be?

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by marconi on 09.10.13 16:14

somebody asked a question and I lost it. I am replying here.
it is about an article, 2007, I think November, where an English lawyer tells a Spanish paper that one of the Tapas wanted to change his/her statement but was fearing the political lobby around the McCanns.
It seems to have been Jane Tanner, who denied it on the first BBC Panorama november 2007.

the article is to be found on The Maddy Case files something "tapas under pressure of the McCanns".

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Re: OPERATION GRANGE - Independent 4/10/13 SY Review Team says there's now *41* persons of interest, and they're trying with the help of Interpol to track mobile 'phones linked to 31 countries worldwide... *PLUS* A new Crimewatch TV appeal in FOUR countries

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.10.13 18:46

@Shrike wrote:I saw this in an earlier topic on this forum from back in June:
 
Quote:
"Since then, I have spoken to Gary Hagland a number of times. In our most recent conversation, he confirmed to me once again that he had retained extensive notes on his period with the McCann Team and was writing a book about his experiences with the McCann Team. He has even sent me extracts of his book.

In 2011, he disclosed to me that he had spoken to a senior member of the Scotland Yard Review Team, Operation Grange, and was prerpared to make a full sttaemnt to them. I have no doubt in my mind that DCI Andy Redwood would have seized the opportunity to talk to him in depth and make a full witness statement."

Does anybody know if anything might have come out of this and if this could have anything to do with new evidence?
Hagland worked for the McCann Team under Brian Kennedy's direction from the beginning (September 2007) through to about April 2008, when he said he resigned from the Team.

Without a shdow of a doubt, since he was immersed in what might be called 'the McCanns' Moroccan campaign, met with Metodo 3 operatives, went to Praia da Luz with Patrick Kennedy, visited Metodo 3's headquarters in Barcleona and lots more, he would have an awful lot to say.

He told me back in 2011 that he had spoken to the Scotland Yard Team and offered to help them.

I doubt from my dealings with him that he has anything to do with this latest stunt...

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