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2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by jeanmonroe on 02.10.13 16:22

Mr Amaral, the detective who initially led the inquiry into her disappearance, was removed from the Portugese investigation in October 2007 after criticising the British police.

He has also applied to give evidence at the trial and is awaiting a decision.
______________________________________________________

I knew he wasn't on the witness list at the start, just as a defendant.

Maybe he'll get in the witness box, after all, and produce his 'ace'!

https://home.bt.com/news/uk/news/book-multiplied-mccanns-pain-11363838013842

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by jeanmonroe on 02.10.13 16:24

@russiandoll wrote:Courtesy of a joker on facebook . This court case is a serious business, but I am afraid I have an irreverent attitude to certain " personalities ", so copying it over.

Looks like Gerry has put his 'chariot before the horse'!

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by tiny on 02.10.13 16:25

@Angelique wrote:I agree - its media manipulation for UK. 

He has tried twice to be a witness - but still refused. 

I also think it is true that Susan Healy was not allowed to give evidence having been removed/replaced is the same tactic. No one can deny that she was there but who would know whether it was to be a witness or not. Entirely within the circle of TM what strategy they use.
Perhaps Anne Guedes  will be able to tell what went on at the courts,she is a star

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by tasprin on 02.10.13 16:28

@Angelique wrote:I agree - its media manipulation for UK. 

He has tried twice to be a witness - but still refused. 

I also think it is true that Susan Healy was not allowed to give evidence having been removed/replaced is the same tactic. No one can deny that she was there but who would know whether it was to be a witness or not. Entirely within the circle of TM what strategy they use.
Exactly. He knew precisely what would happen.

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by gbwales on 02.10.13 16:32

@tiny wrote:
@Angelique wrote:I agree - its media manipulation for UK. 

He has tried twice to be a witness - but still refused. 

I also think it is true that Susan Healy was not allowed to give evidence having been removed/replaced is the same tactic. No one can deny that she was there but who would know whether it was to be a witness or not. Entirely within the circle of TM what strategy they use.
Perhaps Anne Guedes  will be able to tell what went on at the courts,she is a star
This would help - I'd certainly like to correct any newspapers spinning against GA. If we have definitive info on what's been going on it'll be easier to do so.
Already contacted PA, Mail and Sky over their continued references to Pike as a psychologist in today's reports.

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by jeanmonroe on 02.10.13 16:34

Oh well, all that scribbled aide-memoire on hotel headed note paper Ma Healy might have done last night gone to waste!

I wanted her in the witness box to hear the judge ask her 'did you ask Kate if she was involved in your grandaughter's 'disappearance'?

And hearing her reply: "NO i did NOT, why would i?"

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by aiyoyo on 02.10.13 16:47



Madeleine's father says he and wife Kate were left in "purgatory" by claims they were involved in her disappearance.
Purgatory, one step short of Hell.

Sinners not purged of their sins, awaiting forgiveness to enter into the Kingdom of God.

Nail on the head Gerry!


 

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by jeanmonroe on 02.10.13 17:02

http://www.today.com/video/today/20737542#20737542

Sh: 'From all accounts they are doing tremendously well'
SH: 'I think they are coping very, very well'

notice the sideways 'glances' who at?

.".........but at anytime during the time you spent with them in Portugal did you look, did you sit down, and did you look them both in the eye and say kids tell me did you have anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance, point blank."

SH: "No i didn't, why would i.....the whole situation is bizarre and ludicrous.........erm, nobody would ask them that question........"
_________________________________________________

IF it was my grandchild that had gone 'missing' you can be assured that they would be the very first people i'd question remorselessly!

And i think that goes for all my fellow posters here!

BUT NOT TO ASK THEM DIRECTLY?

Ma Healy KNOWS!

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by MoonGoddess on 02.10.13 17:12

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/10/gerry-mccann-unable-to-testify-for.html

She [Trish Cameron] said the effects of the book were worse than when the McCanns were made arguidos, or formal suspects.

"This was a different thing. It was much more conclusive and demonising them, dehumanising them, saying they did not care for their children, that they were responsible.

"It makes it out that they weren't truthful and they have been villified and it's very hard to turn round opinion about them that has been so widely spread."


it is obvious that they are scrutinising the internet.... it worries me that they are being given the opportunity to answer possible 'defence' questions before they are even asked....

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by gbwales on 02.10.13 17:17

@MoonGoddess wrote:
it is obvious that they are scrutinising the internet.... it worries me that they are being given the opportunity to answer possible 'defence' questions before they are even asked....
Nonetheless, they must be made to QUANTIFY and prove with certainty the claims they make.
If the search has been damaged, what is the data that says so? What searches have been damaged, stopped etc. What do they actually mean by 'search'?
And as to all the depression and suicide claims, again they need to provide rock solid proof, not the hearsay and piffle that's been heard so far.
And - careful what you wish for - if GM & KM want to send someone into court to prove that they're as badly damaged as they're claiming then they risk sectioning or losing they remaining children.

I'm still hopeful that none of this hogwash will be tolerated.

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by tasprin on 02.10.13 17:18

@MoonGoddess wrote:http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/10/gerry-mccann-unable-to-testify-for.html

She [Trish Cameron] said the effects of the book were worse than when the McCanns were made arguidos, or formal suspects.

"This was a different thing. It was much more conclusive and demonising them, dehumanising them, saying they did not care for their children, that they were responsible.

"It makes it out that they weren't truthful and they have been villified and it's very hard to turn round opinion about them that has been so widely spread."


it is obvious that they are scrutinising the internet.... it worries me that they are being given the opportunity to answer possible 'defence' questions before they are even asked....
Doesn't sound like she was talking about the book at all.

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by ShuBob on 02.10.13 17:19

The Mirror's take of today's proceedings:

Madeleine McCann parents' pain 'multiplied 100 times' by ex police chief's book, libel trial hears

2 Oct 2013 14:36

Trish Cameron, sister of Madeleine's father Gerry, said her family had been left in 'purgatory' by Madeleine's disappearance and claims they were somehow involved


The McCanns' pain over the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine was "multiplied 100 times" by a book by a former Portuguese police chief, a court has been told today.

Trish Cameron, sister of Gerry McCann, said her brother and his wife Kate had been left in "purgatory" by the disappearance of their daughter and claims that they were somehow involved.

Speaking at the libel trial of ex police chief Goncalo Amaral, Mrs Cameron said the publication of his book The Truth of The Lie in 2008 and a TV documentary based on it the following year had caused the family to be "vilified" and "demonised".

And she said Madeleine's twin siblings Sean and Amelie, now eight, told their parents that comments were made by fellow pupils at their school.

Mrs Cameron said: "My brother and sister-in-law live in purgatory because they have no end and they are looking for the truth.

"They would like an end but there is no end because they don't know what's happened."


The McCanns say the former detective's claims in his book, including suggestions that they hid their daughter's body after she died in an accident and faked an abduction, damaged the hunt for Madeleine and exacerbated her family's anguish.

The family stand to gain £1 million in damages if their legal action is successful.

Mrs Cameron, whose voice cracked as she described the effect Mr Amaro's book had had on her family, said: "They were vilified in this book so their distress was multiplied 100 times.

"This pain was felt by all of their family because we still have a missing child and we knew that what is in there is not true."

Mrs Cameron, from Glasgow, travelled to Lisbon with brother Gerry, who has also applied to give evidence in the case.

Mr McCann still does not know whether he will be able to give evidence at the trial, and no decision was taken today.

Other legal teams are thought to have until October 16 to make submissions on his application, ahead of the judge making her final decision.

As Mr McCann left court at lunchtime, he said: "Obviously it's disappointing, but we will just keep going."

In her evidence, Mrs Cameron told the court that she thought she was the first person in the UK Gerry had called after Madeleine's disappearance in May 2007.

She spent three months in Portugal with Kate and Gerry, and later returned, and continued to help the family in the aftermath of the tragedy.

Mrs Cameron, a nurse, described how the family drew up a rota to help Kate and Gerry when they first returned from Portugal, and had to put it back in place after the book was published in July 2008 as they struggled to cope with its effects.

"Kate was in a very low mood, she was not coping with daily things," she said.

"She was doing solitary things, almost like torturing herself, out running long, long distances by herself.

"She was going to church and praying on a daily basis, and she was sleeping for a long time too.

"She wouldn't go out socially at all, she would not go to a shop.

"We had to help with practical things like the shopping and cooking and looking after the children to help her."

She said the effects of the book were worse than when the McCanns were made arguidos, or formal suspects.

"This was a different thing. It was much more conclusive and demonising them, dehumanising them, saying they did not care for their children, that they were responsible.

"It makes it out that they weren't truthful and they have been villified and it's very hard to turn round opinion about them that has been so widely spread."

She told the court the Portuguese people had "turned against" the McCanns, adding: "Maybe people like a solution and an end to things, they were fed up with the McCanns, they wanted them to go away, but they weren't going away. They still had a missing child.

"This perhaps gave people a conclusion, but it's not the right conclusion, it's all lies."

Mrs Cameron said her brother had been jeered at in the street when he returned to Portugal in April 2009, and was advised to hire security.

He and wife Kate only started going out socialising in the last year or two, she said, but are more comfortable in people's houses "where they are not being watched or scrutinised".

And she said the effects of the family's demonisation had continued, taking its toll on twins Sean and Amelie.

Asked if the twins knew about the book and the TV programme, she said: "Last week Amelie came in from school and said some people had been talking about it.

"She said that people were talking about them at school, and that it was not all good things that had been said.
wtf wtf wtf 
"In the past Sean has come in and said to Gerry, 'Daddy are you famous?'

"Gerry said, 'why are you asking that?', and he said because a boy at school had seen him on the television.

"Gerry continued doing what he was doing and said, 'no I'm not famous, it's because your sister is missing'.

Kate McCann's mother Susan Healy was also due to give evidence today but it emerged that the McCanns' lawyer Isabel Duarte had dismissed all of her English-speaking witnesses other than Mrs Cameron, but forgotten the request amidst the confusion of the case.

She asked today to call Ms Healy but the request was declined by judge Maria Emilia Melo e Castro.

Madeleine's mum Kate appeared at the court last month on the first day of the libel trial, saying she was trying to "stop the damage" she believes is being caused to the search for her daughter.

The court has been told how she had suicidal thoughts after Mr Amaral claimed she had covered up her daughter's death,and psychologist Alan Pike said that after the publication of the former police chief's book in July 2008, Mrs McCann "thought about not being around any more".

Three-year-old Madeleine disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in the Algarve on May 3 2007 as her parents dined at a nearby restaurant with friends.

Mr Amaral, who initially led the inquiry into Madeleine's disappearance, was removed from the case in October 2007 after criticising UK police.

British detectives launched a fresh investigation into the youngster's disappearance in July this year and believe she could still be alive.

The Portuguese investigation into Madeleine's disappearance is officially closed.

The case, in which Mr Amaral denies defamation, is expected to finish hearing evidence in November.

Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-parents-pain-multiplied-2330919#ixzz2ga9cdEsJ
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by MoonGoddess on 02.10.13 17:28

www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/16/vatican-indulgences-pope-francis-tweets

Vatican offers 'time off purgatory' to followers of Pope Francis tweets

The church's granted indulgences reduce the time Catholics believe they will have to spend in purgatory after they have confessed and been absolved of their sins.

I don't think the McCann's will be leaving purgatory anytime soon



@aiyoyo wrote:


Madeleine's father says he and wife Kate were left in "purgatory" by claims they were involved in her disappearance.
Purgatory, one step short of Hell.

Sinners not purged of their sins, awaiting forgiveness to enter into the Kingdom of God.  

Nail on the head Gerry!


 

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Not to help justice in her need would be an impiety ~Plato~

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by aiyoyo on 02.10.13 17:34

She [Trish Cameron] said the effects of the book were worse than when the McCanns were made arguidos, or formal suspects.
Her brother will be furious she gave him that label.
Didn't he tell Leveson "arguido" means Person of Interest? And, did he not tell her that?

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by russiandoll on 02.10.13 17:34

from a blog, partly in French, dated 2 October approx. 4.45 pm.  Have done a quick translation.








.... " Sortant de sa réserve habituelle, M. Amaral, sac à dos à l'épaule, a répondu brièvement aux journalistes pour leur dire qu'il souhaitait beaucoup s'exprimer dans ce procès. J'espère que le tribunal acceptera. J'assiste à toutes les audiences, a-t-il indiqué."......... "


  Leaving behind his usual reserve, Mr Amaral, rucksack over his shoulder, replied briefly to journalists to tell them of his great desire to speak during this trial.  I hope that the court will accept that, I have attended every session, he said.









..... " Je comprends que ce livre ait pu perturber la vie des McCann ... Mais il ne contient rien de nouveau, rien qui n'ait été déjà publié avant. Pourquoi les médias persistent-ils à donner une seule version des faits?, s'est insurgé devant la presse Vitor Santos Oliveira, l'avocat de Gonçalo Amaral.

 I understand that this book might have been troubling for the McCanns,  but there is nothing new in it, nothing not previously made public.
 Why do the media carry on reporting just one version of events?  Goncalo Amaral's lawyer, VSO, came forward to speak to reporters.

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by tasprin on 02.10.13 17:41

Kate McCann's Expresso interview September 2008, after the publication of GA's book, looking cheerful and in control



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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by plebgate on 02.10.13 17:53

@russiandoll wrote:@ plebgate  : seems we have crossed wires, please don't think that I sympathise with Mr Mc having had to travel twice for nothing. I do not believe for a minute that the court would waste his time. It is my belief that he was advised of court procedures by his lawyer and if not he should be very angry with her.

  Once again I think this is media management.

 re hearsay I was trying to differentiate between this and opinion, both a problem in a courtroom.

@Russian Doll.
i know what you mean about wires crossed as sometimes it is hard from just reading a post to get across what you are actually trying to say.

Re.hearsay and opinion - IMO once you go in a witness box you are there to say what you have personally seen not what someone else has told you or to give an opinion.

in the Daily Mirror reporting of Trish Cameron's evidence it says something like - the twins went home and told their parents that other children were making comments.

Third hand info imo and other childrens' comments may have been sympathetic comments or the comments may have been about the children having been left alone in a hotel room.
at the moment we do not know what the defence team said, but to me this is an example of hearsay which should not have been allowed without further questioning.

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by Woofer on 02.10.13 18:04

Trish Cameron testifying that GAs book was all lies should have raised an objection from the defence or the Judge as Trish Cameron does not know whether GAs book was all lies.

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by tiny on 02.10.13 18:08

@Woofer wrote:Trish Cameron testifying that GAs book was all lies should have raised an objection from the defence or the Judge as Trish Cameron does not know whether GAs book was all lies.
Has trish Cameron read the book or is it on the say so of the mccanns

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by gbwales on 02.10.13 18:09

@Woofer wrote:Trish Cameron testifying that GAs book was all lies should have raised an objection from the defence or the Judge as Trish Cameron does not know whether GAs book was all lies.
Yes - it'll be interesting to see the full transcripts rather than what may be a sanitised / skewed news report that conveniently misses out any inconvenient objections....

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by Cristobell on 02.10.13 18:25

@russiandoll wrote:@ plebgate  : seems we have crossed wires, please don't think that I sympathise with Mr Mc having had to travel twice for nothing. I do not believe for a minute that the court would waste his time. It is my belief that he was advised of court procedures by his lawyer and if not he should be very angry with her.

  Once again I think this is media management.

 re hearsay I was trying to differentiate between this and opinion, both a problem in a courtroom.
One thing we do know about Team McCann and the formidable 'G' (now being used to threaten people with on twitter), is that they constantly spin the news.

There is absolutely no way they can win this trial, and they are probably already making moves towards blaming Portugal for treating them so badly (again).  Isabel should probably protect herself as no doubt she will be included in the next round of legal proceedings.

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by gbwales on 02.10.13 18:27

@Cristobell wrote:Isabel should probably protect herself as no doubt she will be included in the next round of legal proceedings.
The next addition to Gerry's daily "To sue" list...

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by Cristobell on 02.10.13 18:44

@plebgate wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:@ plebgate  : seems we have crossed wires, please don't think that I sympathise with Mr Mc having had to travel twice for nothing. I do not believe for a minute that the court would waste his time. It is my belief that he was advised of court procedures by his lawyer and if not he should be very angry with her.

  Once again I think this is media management.

 re hearsay I was trying to differentiate between this and opinion, both a problem in a courtroom.
@Russian Doll.    
i know what you mean about wires crossed as sometimes it is hard from just reading a post to get across what you are actually trying to say.  

Re.hearsay and opinion - IMO once you go in a witness box you are there to say what you have personally seen not what someone else has told you or to give an opinion.  

in the Daily Mirror reporting of Trish Cameron's evidence it says something like - the twins went home and told their parents that other children were making comments.

Third hand info imo and other childrens' comments may have been sympathetic comments or the comments may have been about the children having been left alone in a hotel room.
at the moment we do not know what the defence team said, but to me this is an example of hearsay which should  not have been allowed without further questioning.
The kids picked up that Gerry was on the telly, not the intricacies of the case or the thesis of Goncalo Amaral.  Mummy and Daddy on the telly whenever they get the chance, is far more in your face (day after day) damaging than a book they may or may not stumble across when they are old enough to use the internet without parental controls.

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by Cristobell on 02.10.13 18:47

@gbwales wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:Isabel should probably protect herself as no doubt she will be included in the next round of legal proceedings.
The next addition to Gerry's daily "To sue" list...
I think so. The sidewards glance he is giving her in today's pics, show a hint of a snarl.

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Re: 2nd October - Libel trial reports and discussion *UPDATE* Gerry McCann unable to testify, must wait for Judge decision by 10th

Post by windchime on 02.10.13 18:55

Regarding the twins and what they will eventually find on the internet and bookshelves around the world; how about
'Mum, Dad, why did you say you would do a lie detector test and then refuse to?'
'Mum, Dad, why did you put us into the crèche the very next day after M was abducted, were you not worried about us?'
'Mum, Dad, why didn't you ask for the investigation to be re-opened?'
'Mum, Dad, why didn't you and the people you were on holiday with go back and do a reconstruction to help the police find out what happened to M?'
'Mum, Dad, who were those people you went on holiday with and why don't you see them anymore?'
'Mum, why wouldn't you answer the nice policeman's questions about M?'
'Dad, what is the wider agenda and why is confusion good?'

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