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New photos of the McCanns

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Tony Bennett on 17.03.14 12:54

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Tony, the photo doesn't even feature in the book!

In my opinion, there's no way that the pool photo and the tennis ball one can both be genuine in view of the differences in the age and appearance of the child.
Yes, it is a remarkable fact that though the 'Last Photo' and the 'tennis balls photo' are both given quite a bit of coverage in Kate's book, neither photograph appears there.

Not the least of the problems about the 'tennis balls' photo is that it seems that there is no agreement amongs the 'Tapas 9' on whose camera it was supposed to have been taken!  

The book says (p. 57, hardback): "Standing there listening intently to Cat's instructions, she looked so gorgeous in her little T-shirt and shorts, pink hat, ankle socks and new holiday sandals that I ran back to our apartment for my camera to record the occasion. One of my photographs is known around the world now: a smiling Madeleine clutching an armful of tennis balls...Gerry loves that picture..."

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by ultimaThule on 17.03.14 13:12

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Tony, the photo doesn't even feature in the book!

In my opinion, there's no way that the pool photo and the tennis ball one can both be genuine in view of the differences in the age and appearance of the child.
I share your opinion, NFWTD

As I'm not qualified to judge whether photographic images have been enhanced, altered, or modified in any way, all I can say is that if the pool photo was taken any time in April or May 2007, Madeleine, whose height 9 days before her 4th birthday was given as 90cm, was worryingly small for her age which can indicate an underlying physical or emotional condition that would explain her failure to achieve even the average height for a white British female child of her age.

In addition, to my eye, the development of her teeth and jaw woud appear to indicate that in the pool photo she is closer to 3 than 4 years old.

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by ultimaThule on 17.03.14 13:33

You have a hardback copy of the bewk, Tony?  < impressed emoticon >  If it's a signed first edition it'll soon be worth a fortune on eBay as collectors of black museum artefacts will be falling over themselves to acquire it.  yes 

If it's not signed perhaps Phil's snuff artist hubby can add an appropriate inscription after the event, so to speak, but, as it's probable the price of his photoshopped daubs will have greatly appreciated in value, he may have relocated from Ullapool to imposing premises which contain the artroom of his dreams  big grin

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Guest on 17.03.14 14:00

@ProfessorPPlum wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@ProfessorPPlum wrote:QUOTED: "Then we have number of photoshop 'experts' with x number of years of training who regularly appear on this forum to swear blind that, to their expert eye, it is impossible for that picture to have been manipulated in any way"

I am heartily sick of people referring to my and others' considered opinions (based on many years of day-to-day use of Photoshop) in this way. Unless you share a similar experience / expertise, all this demonstrates is that you don't like that our views on this matter interfere with your preferred theory. You are guilty of trying to change the evidence to fit your belief whereas the scientific method demands that you amend your belief to reflect the evidence. 

If I'm more "expert" in Photoshop than you, so what? Why is that so hard to accept?
ProfesssorPlum, that is quite a harsh comment, in tone, anyway, against what Poe has said.

Now, it would appear that you and I are on the same page in saying that there is no 'photoshopping' or alteration of the photograph itself. To put it another way, I think we both agree that it can be called a genuine, unmanipulated photograph.

However, could you please also give us the benefit of your opinion on whether (and if so how easily) the EXIF data (or whatever they are called) could have been altered so as to make it seem that this photograph was taken at 2.29pm on Thursday 3 May - when it could well have been taken some days earlier in the week?

I would be grateful.

Apologies if it is harsh in tone; at least I'm honest about it. I'm heartily sick of offering a view from a position of experience and having it marginalised by a group of people on this forum who insist that it is wrong. I've watched other contributors hounded off this forum as a result of the argument about this image and whether or not it has / hasn't been photoshopped. I can't help but think that the venon I've witnessed comes in part from the fact that, when you get down to it, what's really at issue here is what you want to believe vs. what the evidence suggests. And if that isn't what's exactly at the core of this 'abduction' story I don't know what is.

So Poe, I'm sorry if my reply was offensive in any way but the comment still stands: I am fed up of people with expertise in a certain area having that expertise dismissed by others who don't. When I (or others) have pointed out the folly of doing this, the response is to challenge or ridicule our 'expertise'. We are referred to as "experts" with inverted commas.

Tony, I have no idea about 'faking EXIF' data. I'm pretty sure that I could take that 'last photo' (at least the one with a date stamp on it - I've not seen that version for years) and fake any date stamp you want if that's what you're asking.

ProfessorPPlum, I apologise for upsetting you. Normally when arguments start about photoshopping, I walk away because it's two opposing points of view with neither side willing to concede they may be wrong.

I understand why you find it frustrating to have your expertise questioned, although you are quite happy to assume that I have none, but the whole point of this forum is that everything about this case is questioned.

If we took everything at face value and believed the experts such as the doctors, the lawyers, the media etc. none of us would be here.

My opinion still stands - I can see photoshopping on this picture. If I'm wrong, so what? I'm just a nobody on a forum expressing an opinion. I'm sure the police both here and in Portugal have taken this image apart pixel by pixel and have seen it for what it is. So can we just agree to disagree?

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by PeterMac on 17.03.14 14:52

The first quote is from Professor of Digital photography, at a leading University in the US (private communication)
The second from a professional "photoshopper" who works on moving images for a leading advertising agency, removing items like cranes and gantries from the digital film

20.1 I have taken an initial look at the image. The artefacts alluded to in the pdf document that you sent are simply JPEG compression artefacts (as described here:  http://www.fourandsix.com/blog/2011/6/29/that-looks-fake.html ). If you magnify other parts of the image you will see similar artefacts. I also performed a forensic analysis to determine if the lighting and the shadows on the people and background are consistent -- they are. I see no other anomalies in the photo. So, at first glance, I see no evidence of photo tampering. 

I will add that it is fairly easy to change dates in an image's metadata or for these dates to be wrong. As such these dates should not be solely relied upon.
Regards,
Y Y Y Y

20.2 “From what I saw I couldn't see anything that would lead me to believe beyond reasonable doubt it had been doctored. The fringing mentioned can be caused by auto sharpening used in consumer digital cameras to make 'better' or 'sharper' images. These artefacts can often be made worse from image compression algorithms out of photoshop or other image manipulation software.”

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by ProfessorPPlum on 17.03.14 15:02

Of course we can agree to disagree, Poe - for sure. FWIW I assumed you didn't have any particular or relevant Photoshop expertise only because I don't recall you mentioning having any either in this or, from memory, the other debates about this picture. I could of course have missed it. However, I suspect that if you had such experience, you wouldn't have made reference to experts the way you did in this thread. Again, I could be wrong...just life experience talking :-)

But it does come down to something knowable: either you do or you don't have experience of manipulating images in Photoshop. I do and I don't see Photoshop manipulation in this image. You do or don't have Photoshop experience and you DO see Photoshop manipulation. I'm not asking whether you see yourself as an 'expert' or not (I don't personally), I'm just trying to establish the degree of experience you have working with images in this way.

I would be interested to know if you consider yourself as having none, a little or a lot of experience using Photoshop to manipulate and fake images.

You might think I'm being unnecessarily pedantic and I'm not trying to lord it over anyone but I assure you I'm not. I'm trying to establish the basis for your conclusion and - with no offence intended - assess the credibility of that conclusion. It has a bearing on your view just as 'expert witnesses' are used in our legal process for the exact same reason.

If you don't have experience in this 'dark art'  big grin then no problem; of course you're still entitled to a view. If you do then it gives us something more to talk about - we have a shared language to explore the picture further. You can tell me the artefacts in the picture in terms I can understand and I can explore / argue in terms you can understand. Other than that we will agree to disagree as you suggested.

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Mirage on 17.03.14 16:22

My starting point: I have no expertise in photography. I have just gleaned a few things along the way that sit uncomfortably with the pool and the tennis photographs.

1. I understand there are different types of bougainvillea  I think I have understood correctly that bougainvillea could technically be in bloom in PdL by the 28th April. I further gleaned  when researching a while back, that bougainvillea flowering is dependent on an optimum number of consecutive days of sunshine. I can't recall whether this is full, uninterrupted sunshine or not. It is apparently the trigger needed for the stuff to bloom. We know the weather for PdL wasn't too marvellous that week, Saturday being the best day before the 3rd by all accounts. What it was like prior to the 28th April? Let's assume say 10 days of sun is needed for blooming. Wasn't it the end of May before the weather finally settled and became very warm? I read that in a trip advisor comment I recall. That is a very usual pattern in the Algarve too. April can be perishing. I've experienced it. Then, overnight, summer is established like it had never been cold.

2. I recall seeing a ghosting of another missing tennis ball under the chin. I could see this but am happy  to accept that the integrity of photographic images suffer in multiple reproductions.

3.I recall seeing the pool photograph minus MM and it showed various anomalies in the wall structure and the new position of a weed. Perhaps others recall this.

4. I am satisfied that the considered opinion of experts on the pool photo, notwithstanding some explanation of point 3, is one that should be accepted. Again, someone said the photos should be taken apart pixel by pixel if the investigations are conducted in seemly manner.

5. I am aware that the hiatus in producing the pool photograph (after Gerry McCann's return from the UK) is the understandable catalyst of all doubt. And a healthy attitude to maintain where this man is concerned. This is the last photograph and was not produced as a matter of urgency to assist police in finding their daughter, therefore it is right and proper to be sceptical. There was a reason for the delay and then the promotion of this image on tv sofas round the world. It may very well have been a manipulation of the date. I don't know why it would have taken so long to effect this operation though. McCann is focussed, knows what he wants and sets the world's press jangling in moments. What was so challenging to a man of this type with urgent reason to get that photo sorted out when you consider all the other astonishing rabbits he pulled from hats in mind-bogglingly short order?

6. Now the image of a child of 3 almost 4 (I think a little young looking for 4 personally) simply does not equate with the dexterous older child in the tennis ball photo. Nothing anyone can say will persuade me these images are contiguous with one another for reasons that have been thrashed out endlessly. Suffice to say, I can see component parts of different individuals of differing maturation in every part of this body, notwithstanding my ability to overlook a ghosting tennis ball.

7 Finally, the meteorological data for 28th April may give overhead sunshine and appropriate shadows falling, However, GM looks hot, sweating in fact. The water, even to have your feet in the pool, must have been cramp-inducing. This is an image to my eye of feeling welcome cool on the feet.

Here is what Matthew Oldfield has to say about the pool in his rog:

4078 "What was the weather like during the week?"

Reply "Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so we didn't, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for people to be in it.

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Guest on 17.03.14 16:43

@Mirage wrote:
4078 "What was the weather like during the week?"

Reply "Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so we didn't, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for people to be in it.

Previous (late) summer?

MM looks nothing like four on the pool photo, to me.

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Mirage on 17.03.14 16:45

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
4078 "What was the weather like during the week?"

Reply "Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so we didn't, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for people to be in it.

Previous (late) summer?

MM looks nothing like four on the pool photo, to me.

That would be more believable, Clay.Not sure about A age-wise though. Would need to look at that.

A bit of retro-fitting IMO came in the form of KM making a big deal in the bewk about the cold pool but how she and MM went in anyway and MM never batted an eyelid, although she herself shivered for ages afterwards. Translates into a bit of paddling wouldn't be questioned against the Amazonian stamina of swimming in the same freezing water. Those pools ARE freezing too in those circumstances I remember only too well. This vignette featured in CW too, IIRC.

Always a reason behind every utterance that spills  from that woman's mouth. A woman for all reasons.

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Guest on 17.03.14 17:00

@Mirage wrote:
Always a reason behind every utterance that spills  from that woman's mouth. A woman for all reasons.

There was the strange anecdote of Maddie diving straight into the freezing water not just in PdL but also in Donegal too. Perhaps the poor thing succumbed to hypothermia.


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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by PeterMac on 17.03.14 18:35

@Mirage wrote:
Here is what Matthew Oldfield has to say about the pool in his rog:
4078 "What was the weather like during the week?"
Reply "Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so we didn't, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for people to be in it.

But what he did NOT say is

Kate and Madeleine went in on the first day . .  they must have been mad, and Kate was shivering all the rest of the afternoon at the meeting.

Kate says
"After reorganizing the sleeping arrangements and unpacking some essentials, we went down to the pool area at the back of the apartment to join the rest of the holiday group – Jane, Russell, Rachael and Matt and their kids had arrived a few hours ahead of us. . . .
The weather was pleasant enough, although there was a cool breeze. It was still April, after all. As I am one of those people who really feel the cold (‘Get a bit of meat on yerself!’ my hardy Scottish in-laws are always telling me), when Madeleine immediately wanted me to go swimming with her, I was not exactly keen. But she was so excited about the pool. I took one look at her eager little face and went off to put on my costume. The water was absolutely freezing, but Madeleine was straight in there, even if her voice disappeared for a second or two with the shock of it. ‘Come on, Mummy!’ she called when she’d got her breath back. I tentatively inched my way in. ‘The things you do for your kids!’ I remember commenting to a dad lying on a sun-lounger with his two sons nearby, watching us. I told Madeleine to count to three and steeled myself. It was worth it – it will always be worth it – just to see her delight. Even if it did take us both the best part of three hours to warm up afterwards."

So Kate and Madeleine had MET the rest of the group, and even names them
They therefore must have witnessed this incredible act of Madeleine hurling herself, aged three, into freezing water, Kate rushing back to the apartment to change, then rushing back again and in turn hurling herself into the freezing water, and both sufering hypothermia which lasted three HOURS for the adult - how long for the child ?

Why do I think we cannot believe a single word of this anecdote ?

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by aiyoyo on 17.03.14 18:50

‘The things you do for your kids!’ I remember commenting to a dad lying on a sun-lounger with his two sons nearby, watching us.

Why is it important for readers to know she talked to a stranger-guy at the pool ? Unnecessary detail always indicate lying.
She's trying too hard for people to believe this incident took place.

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Guest on 17.03.14 18:58

If that person actually existed, he would surely have rushed to give interviews about his encounter with the McCanns after Madeleine was reported missing.

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by canada12 on 17.03.14 19:35

@aiyoyo wrote:
‘The things you do for your kids!’ I remember commenting to a dad lying on a sun-lounger with his two sons nearby, watching us.

Why is it important for readers to know she talked to a stranger-guy at the pool ?   Unnecessary detail always indicate lying.
She's trying too hard for people to believe this incident took place.

I'd say Kate was quite aware, by the time she wrote the bewk, that people were querying The Last Photo. I think she was quite aware that the belief was that the picture was taken on the first day of the holiday, rather than the day Madeleine disappeared. And you'll note that the area behind Gerry, Amelie and Madeleine is deserted - no one on the sun loungers, no one mingling about.

So just to put our minds at rest, Kate has assured us that the area around the pool on that first day was positively bustling with holidaymakers. Including stranger-guy on a sun lounger. Therefore The Last Photo couldn't possibly have been taken on that day. On top of everything else it was freezing cold!

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by aiyoyo on 17.03.14 19:50

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
4078 "What was the weather like during the week?"

Reply "Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so we didn't, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for people to be in it.

Previous (late) summer?

MM looks nothing like four on the pool photo, to me.

Me too, I find she looks younger than four in that photo. I'd have thought the picture was taken a year earlier.
But since they'd never been to PDL priorly and photo's proven not to be photo-shopped, what explanation can there be ?


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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Guest on 17.03.14 19:59

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:If that person actually existed, he would surely have rushed to give interviews about his encounter with the McCanns after Madeleine was reported missing.
Could this have been mr. Edmonds with two of his sons?

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Tony Bennett on 17.03.14 20:40

@Mirage wrote:My starting point: I have no expertise in photography. I have just gleaned a few things along the way that sit uncomfortably with the pool and the tennis photographs.

1. I understand there are different types of bougainvillea  I think I have understood correctly that bougainvillea could technically be in bloom in PdL by the 28th April. I further gleaned  when researching a while back, that bougainvillea flowering is dependent on an optimum number of consecutive days of sunshine. I can't recall whether this is full, uninterrupted sunshine or not. It is apparently the trigger needed for the stuff to bloom. We know the weather for PdL wasn't too marvellous that week, Saturday being the best day before the 3rd by all accounts. What it was like prior to the 28th April?  Let's assume say 10 days of sun is needed for blooming. Wasn't it the end of May before the weather finally settled and became very warm? I read that in a trip advisor comment I recall. That is a very usual pattern in the Algarve too. April can be perishing. I've experienced it. Then, overnight, summer is established like it had never been cold.

REPLY: I think you are saying that the bougainvillea point is not a strong one. If  so, I agree  

2. I recall seeing a ghosting of another missing tennis ball under the chin. I could see this but am happy to accept that the integrity of photographic images suffer in multiple reproductions.

REPLY: We can probably agree then that this is not a strong indicator of anything wrong with the 'Last Photo'

3.I recall seeing the pool photograph minus MM and it showed various anomalies in the wall structure and the new position of a weed. Perhaps others recall this.

REPLY: That MIGHT be evidence of photoshopping. I have not personally seen either evidence of (a) anomlaies in the wall structure or (b) the new position of a weed. Are you able to retrieve this evidence and let us see it again on this thread?

4. I am satisfied that the considered opinion of experts on the pool photo, notwithstanding some explanation of point 3, is one that should be accepted. Again, someone said the photos should be taken apart pixel by pixel if the investigations are conducted in seemly manner.

REPLY: PeterMac has supplied as  much a she can about the two experts who pronounced this 'Last Photo' 'not photoshopped'. It would require a strong opinion from an acknowledged photoshop expert to successfully contradict those two opinions  

5. I am aware that the hiatus in producing the pool photograph (after Gerry McCann's return from the UK) is the understandable catalyst of all doubt. And a healthy attitude to maintain where this man is concerned. This is the last photograph and was not produced as a matter of urgency to assist police in finding their daughter, therefore it is right and proper to be sceptical. There was a reason for the delay and then the promotion of this image on tv sofas round the world. It may very well have been a manipulation of the date. I don't know why it would have taken so long to effect this operation though. McCann is focussed, knows what he wants and sets the world's press jangling in moments. What was so challenging to a man of this type with urgent reason to get that photo sorted out when you consider all the other astonishing rabbits he pulled from hats in mind-bogglingly short order?

REPLY: It has been pointed out that 99% or more of camera users would have no possible reasons for changing a time and date 'stamp' and therefore would not know how to do it. I am advised by several people that it is a relatively simple procedure. What is certain is that if the photograph was taken, say, on Sunday 29 April, but the date stamp of it altered to Thursday 3 May (4 days later), that would amount to a very significant and sinister deception. If someone wanted to change the date stamp but didn't know how to do it, they would have to approach a camera expert 

6. Now the image of a child of 3 almost 4 (I think a little young looking for 4 personally) simply does not equate with the dexterous older child in the tennis ball photo. Nothing anyone can say will persuade me these images are contiguous with one another for reasons that have been thrashed out endlessly. Suffice to say, I can see component parts of different individuals of differing maturation in every part of this body, notwithstanding my ability to overlook a ghosting tennis ball.

REPLY: In reply to others, I maintain that Madeleine does look 3, nearly 4, in the photo, and that Amelie looks around two. People who are suggesting that this photo was taken the previous summer somewhere or other would have to sugges that, when it was taken, Amelie was no more than 16-18 months old. That IMO is clearly not the case with this photo. The height of the sun in Portugal in late April easily accounts for the shortness of the shadows. A bit too much IMO has been made of Gerry looking 'hit' in this photo. If the temperature when it was taken was 20C (68F) in the shade (which it was on the Sunday and Monday), the equivalent sun temperature would be about40C (104F). It would be hot for anyone one to sit in continuous sun at these temperatures around 1pm to 3pm that time of year. As regards the 'tennis balls photo', I fully agree that they hardly look like the same child. Having said that the 'Last Photo' is definitely of Madeleine on that holiday, I can't be so sure about the 'tennis balls photo'    

7 Finally, the meteorological data for 28th April may give overhead sunshine and appropriate shadows falling, However, GM looks hot, sweating in fact. The water, even to have your feet in the pool, must have been cramp-inducing. This is an image to my eye of feeling welcome cool on the feet.

Here is what Matthew Oldfield has to say about the pool in his rog:

4078 "What was the weather like during the week?"

Reply "Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so we didn't, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for people to be in it.

REPLY: It would be common on a very warm day, when the pool itself is cold, to sit around dipping your feet, but no more, in the water

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Tony Bennett on 17.03.14 20:44

@aiyoyo wrote:
Me too, I find she looks younger than four in that photo.  I'd have thought the picture was taken a year earlier.  
But in that case, in April 2006, Amelie would be just 1 year and 2 months.

She clearly looks like a 2-year-ol IMO in the 'Last Photo'

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Hobs on 17.03.14 21:14

@PeterMac wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
Here is what Matthew Oldfield has to say about the pool in his rog:
4078 "What was the weather like during the week?"
Reply "Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so we didn't, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for people to be in it.

But what he did NOT say is

Kate and Madeleine went in on the first day . .  they must have been mad, and Kate was shivering all the rest of the afternoon at the meeting.

Kate says
"After reorganizing the sleeping arrangements and unpacking some essentials, we went down to the pool area at the back of the apartment to join the rest of the holiday group – Jane, Russell, Rachael and Matt and their kids had arrived a few hours ahead of us. . . .
The weather was pleasant enough, although there was a cool breeze. It was still April, after all. As I am one of those people who really feel the cold (‘Get a bit of meat on yerself!’ my hardy Scottish in-laws are always telling me), when Madeleine immediately wanted me to go swimming with her, I was not exactly keen. But she was so excited about the pool. I took one look at her eager little face and went off to put on my costume. The water was absolutely freezing, but Madeleine was straight in there, even if her voice disappeared for a second or two with the shock of it. ‘Come on, Mummy!’ she called when she’d got her breath back. I tentatively inched my way in. ‘The things you do for your kids!’ I remember commenting to a dad lying on a sun-lounger with his two sons nearby, watching us. I told Madeleine to count to three and steeled myself. It was worth it – it will always be worth it – just to see her delight. Even if it did take us both the best part of three hours to warm up afterwards."

So Kate and Madeleine had MET the rest of the group, and even names them
They therefore must have witnessed this incredible act of Madeleine hurling herself, aged three, into freezing water, Kate rushing back to the apartment to change, then rushing back again and in turn hurling herself into the freezing water, and both sufering hypothermia which lasted three HOURS for the adult - how long for the child ?

Why do I think we cannot believe a single word of this anecdote ?
There we have the magic number three (the liars number Mark McClish) rearing its ugly head again liar

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by petunia on 17.03.14 21:21

@PeterMac wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
Here is what Matthew Oldfield has to say about the pool in his rog:
4078 "What was the weather like during the week?"
Reply "Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so we didn't, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for people to be in it.

But what he did NOT say is

Kate and Madeleine went in on the first day . .  they must have been mad, and Kate was shivering all the rest of the afternoon at the meeting.

Kate says
"After reorganizing the sleeping arrangements and unpacking some essentials, we went down to the pool area at the back of the apartment to join the rest of the holiday group – Jane, Russell, Rachael and Matt and their kids had arrived a few hours ahead of us. . . .
The weather was pleasant enough, although there was a cool breeze. It was still April, after all. As I am one of those people who really feel the cold (‘Get a bit of meat on yerself!’ my hardy Scottish in-laws are always telling me), when Madeleine immediately wanted me to go swimming with her, I was not exactly keen. But she was so excited about the pool. I took one look at her eager little face and went off to put on my costume. The water was absolutely freezing, but Madeleine was straight in there, even if her voice disappeared for a second or two with the shock of it. ‘Come on, Mummy!’ she called when she’d got her breath back. I tentatively inched my way in. ‘The things you do for your kids!’ I remember commenting to a dad lying on a sun-lounger with his two sons nearby, watching us. I told Madeleine to count to three and steeled myself. It was worth it – it will always be worth it – just to see her delight. Even if it did take us both the best part of three hours to warm up afterwards."

So Kate and Madeleine had MET the rest of the group, and even names them
They therefore must have witnessed this incredible act of Madeleine hurling herself, aged three, into freezing water, Kate rushing back to the apartment to change, then rushing back again and in turn hurling herself into the freezing water, and both sufering hypothermia which lasted three HOURS for the adult - how long for the child ?

Why do I think we cannot believe a single word of this anecdote ?
Madeleine was so keen that Kate immediately went to put on her costume,not we went to put on our costumes?so Madeleine must have already been wearing her costume..

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by canada12 on 17.03.14 21:48

And here we have the conundrum.

1. The Last Photo is not photoshopped
2. The Last Photo was taken earlier on the same holiday
3. Amelie looks to be the correct age.
4. Madeleine looks too young to be nearly 4.
5. The family has not been to this resort before.

What can we possibly conclude from this?

Madeleine, aged nearly 4, is the girl in The Last Photo, and The Last Photo was taken earlier in the holiday. She does not look as old as any of the other "Madeleine's" in any of the other photos from that holiday. Therefore, Madeleine, aged nearly 4, does indeed look very young for her age and none of the other "Madeleine's" in any of the photos from that holiday are actually the same girl as the one in The Last Photo.

or ...

?

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by juliet on 17.03.14 22:42

I agree with Canada12. If the Maddie in the pool photo is genuine then a completely different and older child featured in all the other PdL pictures - not to mention the Everton shirt pix.

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by ultimaThule on 17.03.14 22:46

@Hobs wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
Here is what Matthew Oldfield has to say about the pool in his rog:
4078 "What was the weather like during the week?"
Reply "Erm, it was sunny but cold, the pools were freezing, so we didn't, even though the pool was there, it was unusual for people to be in it.

But what he did NOT say is

Kate and Madeleine went in on the first day . .  they must have been mad, and Kate was shivering all the rest of the afternoon at the meeting.

Kate says
"After reorganizing the sleeping arrangements and unpacking some essentials, we went down to the pool area at the back of the apartment to join the rest of the holiday group – Jane, Russell, Rachael and Matt and their kids had arrived a few hours ahead of us. . . .
The weather was pleasant enough, although there was a cool breeze. It was still April, after all. As I am one of those people who really feel the cold (‘Get a bit of meat on yerself!’ my hardy Scottish in-laws are always telling me), when Madeleine immediately wanted me to go swimming with her, I was not exactly keen. But she was so excited about the pool. I took one look at her eager little face and went off to put on my costume. The water was absolutely freezing, but Madeleine was straight in there, even if her voice disappeared for a second or two with the shock of it. ‘Come on, Mummy!’ she called when she’d got her breath back. I tentatively inched my way in. ‘The things you do for your kids!’ I remember commenting to a dad lying on a sun-lounger with his two sons nearby, watching us. I told Madeleine to count to three and steeled myself. It was worth it – it will always be worth it – just to see her delight. Even if it did take us both the best part of three hours to warm up afterwards."

So Kate and Madeleine had MET the rest of the group, and even names them
They therefore must have witnessed this incredible act of Madeleine hurling herself, aged three, into freezing water, Kate rushing back to the apartment to change, then rushing back again and in turn hurling herself into the freezing water, and both sufering hypothermia which lasted three HOURS for the adult - how long for the child ?

Why do I think we cannot believe a single word of this anecdote ?
There we have the magic number three (the liars number Mark McClish) rearing its ugly head again liar
After leaving Rothley Towers with the Payne/Webster family c7am on Saturday 28 April 2007 to travel to East Midlands Airport to catch their flight to Faro,  the McCanns and their children eventually arrived at 5A shortly after 3pm where Kate and Gerry set about moving 4 beds, 2 bedside tables, 2 cots, and 1 chest of drawers, before unpacking a few bits and setting off to rendezvous with their chums at the Tapas Bar/pool area.

According to Matt Oldfield's rog, at 4pm MW's nannies came to the Tapas Bar/pool area for the arriving holidaymakers' children to meet them (and presumably hear about the fun they were going to have) before the kids clubs opened the following day.  At 5pm the group 'packed up' and went to the MW adult welcome meeting (at the Millenium?) where they signed their children up for various kids club sessions and signed themselves up for various sporting activities, after which they ate dinner at the Millenium with their children before returning to their respective apartments for the remainder of the evening.

It seems that had Gerry's plan to turn a bikini clad Kate into the nation's favourite p3 girl sweetheart come to fruition, she may have made as much of a splash impression as she did on Matt Oldfield's phwoar scale on the first day of their holiday.

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Woofer on 17.03.14 22:56

Just realised what author Kate reminds me of ......  its Enid Blyton.  Doesn`t it just remind you of reading those Famous Five books when you were little.

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Re: New photos of the McCanns

Post by Mirage on 17.03.14 23:41

@Woofer wrote:Just realised what author Kate reminds me of ......  its Enid Blyton.  Doesn`t it just remind you of reading those Famous Five books when you were little.

Quaffing oodles of ginger beer and tucking into Aunt Fanny's delicious scones at the tapas bar. The children off all day long with Aunt Fanny oblivious to their being in mortal danger. In the re-make KM would probably want old Timmy written out. Understandable, because that dog helped solve far too many mysteries. Then there was the inscrutable Uncle Quentin who worked for some secret government science agency ..........

Hmm, possibilities Woofer, possibilities.

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