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Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by tigger on 22.10.13 16:16

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Truthandjustice wrote:When were the curtains washed? and how do we know that?
See here: http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/01/madeleine-mccann-facts-in-beginning.html

It's possible curtains/walls etc were washed as part of preparation for the holiday season prior to the McCanns' arrival but, as Hobs and tigger have frequently shown, linguistic analysis of the McCanns' statements reveal stories other than those which they want to be seen as being 'the truth'.

KM has made mention of workmen attending 5A on the morning of 3rd May to repair the shutters which 'Gerry's touch' had caused be inoperable and also fix a problem she had with the washing machine which, according to her account, was easily remedied as it consisted of being little more than her not understanding the control mechanism.

From this account one can deduce the the washing machine had not been used prior to the morning of 3rd May and it may be there was need of the machine on that date because Madeleine had died earlier leaving blood on the curtains, wall, and floor behind the sofa.

FTR, I again state that I will never buy into any theory that has the McCanns and/or their friends panicked into the rapid disposal of a body.
Neither do I, an accident, panic, disposal just doesn't work. Neither psychologically or on the available evidence. 
It doesn't explain a large number of things, in particular 12voicemails sent to Gerry on the 2nd, the photoshopped photographs, in particular the iconic one, why Murat came back in such a hurry on the 1st, why the crèche records for the Lobster group  are such  a mess when all the other crèche sheets are neat. 
Why there are no family photographs from the holiday, no photographs of the group taken in the evenings (GA asked for these).
Why also there is no photograph of Maddie in PdL in the book, most of all, why the diplomatic help was on the spot in hours where consular help was already on the job. 
Imo that took some arranging and for me the performance of the 3rd was just that.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 23.10.13 0:57

@PeterMac wrote:
@Curioser wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:The diagram also does not show the garden area between the stairs and the alleyway.
Hi PeterMac. You're right. It's a pretty poor rendition of the flat. See above for an edited version. I'm only trying to show that they could easily have gone about their business on the way to dinner without seeing Madeleine behind the couch.
Agreed. Also the previous evening, Gerry went home and straight to bed, Kate went later and probably upset, threw herself into the spare bed in the children's room possibly without putting on the light, and cried herself to sleep.
In the morning - M cold and stiff behind the sofa, and they have one day to get everything right.
So you think it could have been the night of the 2nd? Interesting. That johanna link made a pretty strong case for changes of pattern on the day of the 3rd to conceal the missing Madeliene. I don't know. The staff during the day said that they noticed no change of demeanour at creche or at dinner. They were telling stories, laughing and drinking as usual. Would they be that good at acting? I guess to a casual observer, maybe.

I was thinking the night of the 3rd because this scenario gives enough time, just, for cadaverine to develop and allows for blood spatter high up on the wall as they rush to move her. I think the actions do smack of panic despite what many others here think. I respect their views, but I don't agree.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 23.10.13 0:58

@Woofer wrote:Blimey Curioser, you have really given some thought to a possible scenario - well done for that.

I`m sure it can be fine tuned with the help of the critical minds here.
Thanks Woofer. I have been working on it for a while. It still has holes but it doesn't seem too far fetched to me.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 23.10.13 0:59

candyfloss wrote:Curioser theory, both parts have now been added to 1st page of this thread, and the title changed from the 'Any advice etc' title.  
Thanks Candyfloss. I thought it had been deleted for a minute!

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 23.10.13 1:20

@Estelle wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Blimey Curioser, you have really given some thought to a possible scenario - well done for that.

I`m sure it can be fine tuned with the help of the critical minds here.
Bravo! I do not have the patience to do that.
Thanks Estelle. I've been a bit of a shut in for various reasons and I just got fascinated by the case.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Okeydokey on 23.10.13 21:17

I'd say one of the strongest justifications for a Curioser-style scenario are the two timelines written on Maddy's colouring book pages. Would they really have done that if they'd had time to prepare?  If they had had time to prepare, wouldn't they have made more of a show of looking for the child? Wouldn't they have dealt with the inconsistencies arising from the JT "sighting" (e.g. wouldn't they have made a show of searching in the direction of the sighting and wouldn't they have made it clear she immediately told the McCanns about the sighting?).

It's also in line broadly with what Amaral thought happened.

I think I am tilting towards the same day approach being the one that best fits the facts.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 27.10.13 11:53

@Okeydokey wrote:I'd say one of the strongest justifications for a Curioser-style scenario are the two timelines written on Maddy's colouring book pages. Would they really have done that if they'd had time to prepare?  If they had had time to prepare, wouldn't they have made more of a show of looking for the child? Wouldn't they have dealt with the inconsistencies arising from the JT "sighting" (e.g. wouldn't they have made a show of searching in the direction of the sighting and wouldn't they have made it clear she immediately told the McCanns about the sighting?).

It's also in line broadly with what Amaral thought happened.

I think I am tilting towards the same day approach being the one that best fits the facts.
Hey Okeydokey, I missed your post.

That was my thinking too. Despite what many people here say I think their actions smack of panic. The didn't have any paper - they were on holidays - why would they need paper? So they grabbed the first thing they could find and used it. All the stuff about "they should have treasured the book of their beloved Madeleine" doesn't take into account that you would use whatever came to hand if you were in a desperate rush. 

There were enough of them to clean up and cover up. They thought they were smarter than everyone around them and could get away with it.

Still PeterMac seems to think it was the night before and this theory which was posted ages ago makes a good case for them behaving differently on the third, perhaps to cover up Maddie's absence. 
http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com.au/p/theory-english.html

What do you think?

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 27.10.13 12:24

@jeanmonroe wrote:
@Curioser wrote:Oh well. I'm sorry I've upset some of you but I'm not putting myself at risk of being damned. Aquila, I'm not asking you to buy anything. Please ignore the thread if I offend you.

I did work on it. I simplified it, cleaned it up, took all the dialogue out and sent it off. It's probably just rehashed crapola anyway, ultimaThule. It's probably all been thought of before but I just haven't found it. The marble floor is absolutely a major character. 

But nevermind. I'm not asking permission to post. I asking for advice and I'm happy to wait for that advice.
Jeez!
SPIT IT OUT!

We've already said in this forum and elsewhere that Maddie may have been 'clunked' around the head and hit her head on a wall or floor when she tried to get between her arguing parents arguing about why did Gerry invite the buxom aerobics instructor to sit at their table after the quiz.

An accident........ NOT 'abduction'

We have all seen the McCanns in the 'second' apartment after 5A and the clothes left on the 'shiny floor' and possibly one of the twins slipping on those and cracking their head on the tiled floor.

We've all heard RO say about 'resuscitation and bumped her head'.

We've all heard S Healy's 'if accident to her'

Who are you at risk of being damned by?

ENOUGH BS!

You won't know if it's crapola until you post it.



Hey jeanmonroe, after the caps and PMs, you never told me what you thought now that the theory is out there. It's on page one of this thread. The first half is cleaned up. The second half is with imagined dialogue etc. There are plans on page 7.

 I'd be interested to hear your opinion.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Okeydokey on 27.10.13 13:28

@Curioser wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:I'd say one of the strongest justifications for a Curioser-style scenario are the two timelines written on Maddy's colouring book pages. Would they really have done that if they'd had time to prepare?  If they had had time to prepare, wouldn't they have made more of a show of looking for the child? Wouldn't they have dealt with the inconsistencies arising from the JT "sighting" (e.g. wouldn't they have made a show of searching in the direction of the sighting and wouldn't they have made it clear she immediately told the McCanns about the sighting?).

It's also in line broadly with what Amaral thought happened.

I think I am tilting towards the same day approach being the one that best fits the facts.
Hey Okeydokey, I missed your post.

That was my thinking too. Despite what many people here say I think their actions smack of panic. The didn't have any paper - they were on holidays - why would they need paper? So they grabbed the first thing they could find and used it. All the stuff about "they should have treasured the book of their beloved Madeleine" doesn't take into account that you would use whatever came to hand if you were in a desperate rush. 

There were enough of them to clean up and cover up. They thought they were smarter than everyone around them and could get away with it.

Still PeterMac seems to think it was the night before and this theory which was posted ages ago makes a good case for them behaving differently on the third, perhaps to cover up Maddie's absence. 
http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com.au/p/theory-english.html

What do you think?
I've had another thought - some might theorise that the writing of the timelines could have been required because the pre-planned timeline went awry owing to the unexpected presence of JW.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by pennylane on 27.10.13 13:33

@Okeydokey wrote:I'd say one of the strongest justifications for a Curioser-style scenario are the two timelines written on Maddy's colouring book pages. Would they really have done that if they'd had time to prepare?  If they had had time to prepare, wouldn't they have made more of a show of looking for the child? Wouldn't they have dealt with the inconsistencies arising from the JT "sighting" (e.g. wouldn't they have made a show of searching in the direction of the sighting and wouldn't they have made it clear she immediately told the McCanns about the sighting?).

It's also in line broadly with what Amaral thought happened.

I think I am tilting towards the same day approach being the one that best fits the facts.
Indeed, I agree. 

The open window also smacks of last minute desperation, and that too failed miserably.  They quickly put the word out, and then had to eat it.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 27.10.13 13:52

@Okeydokey wrote:I've had another thought - some might theorise that the writing of the timelines could have been required because the pre-planned timeline went awry owing to the unexpected presence of JW.
You mean perhaps it happened on the 2nd, they had a plan, then he was seen by JW and then by the Smiths so they had to quickly re-plan? Possibly. Interesting.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 27.10.13 13:59

@pennylane wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:I'd say one of the strongest justifications for a Curioser-style scenario are the two timelines written on Maddy's colouring book pages. Would they really have done that if they'd had time to prepare?  If they had had time to prepare, wouldn't they have made more of a show of looking for the child? Wouldn't they have dealt with the inconsistencies arising from the JT "sighting" (e.g. wouldn't they have made a show of searching in the direction of the sighting and wouldn't they have made it clear she immediately told the McCanns about the sighting?).

It's also in line broadly with what Amaral thought happened.

I think I am tilting towards the same day approach being the one that best fits the facts.
Indeed, I agree. 

The open window also smacks of last minute desperation, and that too failed miserably.  They quickly put the word out, and then had to eat it.
And they had to keep going because they couldn't back down. Not with all the publicity and attention. If this scenario is close then they lied to the Pope! and the PM.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Okeydokey on 27.10.13 14:42

@Curioser wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:I've had another thought - some might theorise that the writing of the timelines could have been required because the pre-planned timeline went awry owing to the unexpected presence of JW.
You mean perhaps it happened on the 2nd, they had a plan, then he was seen by JW and then by the Smiths so they had to quickly re-plan? Possibly. Interesting.
That's a hypothesis that also fits the facts and the scenario of panicked timeline writing...

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by PeterMac on 27.10.13 14:49

@Okeydokey wrote:
@Curioser wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:I've had another thought - some might theorise that the writing of the timelines could have been required because the pre-planned timeline went awry owing to the unexpected presence of JW.
You mean perhaps it happened on the 2nd, they had a plan, then he was seen by JW and then by the Smiths so they had to quickly re-plan? Possibly. Interesting.
That's a hypothesis that also fits the facts and the scenario of panicked timeline writing...
Exaclty
JW is in the wrong place at the wrong time,
and JT gets her timing wrong as well. She was supposed to wait longer, but certainly NOT to se GM and JW on the street.
But she was anxious to help, so left too early.

It all falls apart.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 27.10.13 22:40

So GM was supposed to be gone by the time JT did her check, but he got held up by JW. She saw them, assumed JW had seen her and so thought she had to report that she saw them? 


What would she have been on her way to do?

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 27.10.13 23:11

@Okeydokey wrote:
@Curioser wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:I've had another thought - some might theorise that the writing of the timelines could have been required because the pre-planned timeline went awry owing to the unexpected presence of JW.
You mean perhaps it happened on the 2nd, they had a plan, then he was seen by JW and then by the Smiths so they had to quickly re-plan? Possibly. Interesting.
That's a hypothesis that also fits the facts and the scenario of panicked timeline writing...
It does fit OkeyDokey. I just have a hard time believing they could be so cold-blooded. All of them.

I can see: find her on Thursday night, panic, have a quick conference with friends who are already in the apartment because they've been looking for her, on the spur of the moment they agree to a (bad) plan, they agree to a pact of silence, no time for second-thoughts or finesse.

But for them to find her Thursday morning, get everyone together, sit down and nut out a (bad) plan together, make a pact, then go and play tennis, go and sail, go to the beach, play tennis again, go to dinner and laugh as normal and tell stories without anyone noticing anything different about any of them? That seems so cold. And yet there are good arguments for this to be the case. Changed patterns etc.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Okeydokey on 27.10.13 23:31

@Curioser wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:
@Curioser wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:I've had another thought - some might theorise that the writing of the timelines could have been required because the pre-planned timeline went awry owing to the unexpected presence of JW.
You mean perhaps it happened on the 2nd, they had a plan, then he was seen by JW and then by the Smiths so they had to quickly re-plan? Possibly. Interesting.
That's a hypothesis that also fits the facts and the scenario of panicked timeline writing...
It does fit OkeyDokey. I just have a hard time believing they could be so cold-blooded. All of them.

I can see: find her on Thursday night, panic, have a quick conference with friends who are already in the apartment because they've been looking for her, on the spur of the moment they agree to a (bad) plan, they agree to a pact of silence, no time for second-thoughts or finesse.

But for them to find her Thursday morning, get everyone together, sit down and nut out a (bad) plan together, make a pact, then go and play tennis, go and sail, go to the beach, play tennis again, go to dinner and laugh as normal and tell stories without anyone noticing anything different about any of them? That seems so cold. And yet there are good arguments for this to be the case. Changed patterns etc.
I think we have to accept that none of the theories seem to fit perfectly the available  (and that includes the Team McCann narrative of course).

Whilst it is true it is difficult to conceive of people behaving like that it is also difficult to conceive of parents blithely talking about arranging a one year's anniversary of the abduction 10 months' time, or saying they didn't feel they were on an emotional roller coaster when news came in of a sighting, or not being able to remember where sightings had come in from...and that's just a start as you probably well know.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 27.10.13 23:34

That's true. It's just so alien.

So if we're going to believe that they can all be that cold how about this?

Mrs Fenn hears a child crying and calling daddie on the 1st.
What if Madeleine fell, hit her head and lay bleeding behind the sofa. Amelie wakes and climbs off the bed where the twins were sleeping, goes out to the lounge, finds Madeleine and cries, "Maddie, Maddie"? Explains why they didn't want to admit to calling her Maddie... And why they brought cots in for the twins... But that's two days of pretending everything is ok. 

Arrgh. I don't know.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Okeydokey on 27.10.13 23:38

@pennylane wrote:
@Okeydokey wrote:I'd say one of the strongest justifications for a Curioser-style scenario are the two timelines written on Maddy's colouring book pages. Would they really have done that if they'd had time to prepare?  If they had had time to prepare, wouldn't they have made more of a show of looking for the child? Wouldn't they have dealt with the inconsistencies arising from the JT "sighting" (e.g. wouldn't they have made a show of searching in the direction of the sighting and wouldn't they have made it clear she immediately told the McCanns about the sighting?).

It's also in line broadly with what Amaral thought happened.

I think I am tilting towards the same day approach being the one that best fits the facts.
Indeed, I agree. 

The open window also smacks of last minute desperation, and that too failed miserably.  They quickly put the word out, and then had to eat it.
Yes, hypothetically, if a group of intelligent professionals, well used to dealing with complex problems, were to have time to discuss how to stage an abduction, surely one of them would have said - well we need to scuff up the lichen to show someone put pressure there...people don't just float through windows. And another one would say, we need to get some forensics for them to find...let's see if we can't pick up a few fibres or hairs from somewhere around the resort to place at the scene...

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Okeydokey on 27.10.13 23:39

@Curioser wrote:That's true. It's just so alien.

So if we're going to believe that they can all be that cold how about this?

Mrs Fenn hears a child crying and calling daddie on the 1st.
What if Madeleine fell, hit her head and lay bleeding behind the sofa. Amelie wakes and climbs off the bed where the twins were sleeping, goes out to the lounge, finds Madeleine and cries, "Maddie, Maddie"? Explains why they didn't want to admit to calling her Maddie... And why they brought cots in for the twins... But that's two days of pretending everything is ok. 

Arrgh. I don't know.
In some ways, looking at it theoretically, two days is easier to conceive than one...

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 27.10.13 23:46

Exactly. A group of people like that you would think that if they had time to plan, and if they went to the trouble of writing out a plan, that they would have included opening shutters and windows at appropriate times as well. They'd make the room look right with bedclothes on the cots, make the bed by the window, or if that bed was Madeleine's, not make the bed by the door. It just doesn't make sense. They would have cleaned the curtains and have them back up and the sofa in it's usual place out from the wall a bit. 

If it happened on the 1st or 2nd, then they had the time. Someone could have missed out on sailing etc to get these things right.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 27.10.13 23:50

The phone deletions tend to suggest (to me) that events may have happened earlier than 3 May.  I have never understood how any parent in such a situation would even begin to turn attention to clearing the memory records of their phones?  It just wouldn't happen that way. 

I also come back to the alleged "They've taken her" which has always struck me so forcibly as a known truth.  But if so who were "they"?

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 27.10.13 23:59

Perhaps, but never ascribe to malice what can adequately be ascribed to stupidity. 

My mother in law was dying, RIP, and I was recording her stories in the hospital. I accidentally deleted all her texts. I have no idea how it happened except that I wasn't looking at the phone.

Some people delete texts as they get them, except special ones they want to keep. 

I don't know. What did the text say anyway between Gerry and Kate that night, or was it a phone call?

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 28.10.13 0:11

I don't know the motive, only that it would seem the last thing a parent would do (and we understand it was a conscious choice) at such a time?  Accidentally, yes, but deliberately?  In those circumstances?  Doesn't add up.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Okeydokey on 28.10.13 1:09

@Searcher wrote:I don't know the motive, only that it would seem the last thing a parent would do (and we understand it was a conscious choice) at such a time?  Accidentally, yes, but deliberately?  In those circumstances?  Doesn't add up.
I am more with Curioser - if something awful has happened, you don't want it to be found out, you think of the most obvious way you might be detected and - this being the modern world - detection via phone messages might well be one of the first things that comes to mind (especially if you were a practised at infidelity say).

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