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Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 21.10.13 20:55

@thetruthbeknown wrote:From any, mainly you could not be seen as 'libellous' if your theory is based around facts from an official source that has been publicised
Not according to the McCanns' high end hotshot lawyers in England/Wales and Portugal where, respectively, Tony Bennett has been and Dr Amaral is being sued for libel by the litigious pair.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by thetruthbeknown on 21.10.13 21:02

That is the law..if they could prove that they used publicised facts from official sources. i dont know much about past cases, but i have been following the recent case, and if Amaral can prove that most of what he has written is already on view in the publicised police files..then by rights, he should be cleared of libel.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 21.10.13 21:34

In the matter of Dr Armaral's ongoing trial, it may interest you to read the judgement of the Lisbon Appellate Court which was appealed by the McCanns and upheld by the Supreme Court of Portugal:  http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by thetruthbeknown on 21.10.13 22:13

Thank-you for that, interesting reading, the overturning of the book ban would go with the kind of judicial ruling on libel etc you would expect if basing a thesis on police files etc. I would say that it looks hopeful for this libel case too.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Casey5 on 21.10.13 22:35

I've read that you can say anything that's already been divulged in a court of law.
So anything that's been said in the Amaral trial can be stated without fear of being Carter Rucked.That's why, I read, the papers are being rather forward and mentioning things they have previously refrained from mentioning.big grin

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Truthandjustice on 21.10.13 22:54

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Truthandjustice wrote:When were the curtains washed? and how do we know that?
See here: http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/01/madeleine-mccann-facts-in-beginning.html

It's possible curtains/walls etc were washed as part of preparation for the holiday season prior to the McCanns' arrival but, as Hobs and tigger have frequently shown, linguistic analysis of the McCanns' statements reveal stories other than those which they want to be seen as being 'the truth'.

KM has made mention of workmen attending 5A on the morning of 3rd May to repair the shutters which 'Gerry's touch' had caused be inoperable and also fix a problem she had with the washing machine which, according to her account, was easily remedied as it consisted of being little more than her not understanding the control mechanism.

From this account one can deduce the the washing machine had not been used prior to the morning of 3rd May and it may be there was need of the machine on that date because Madeleine had died earlier leaving blood on the curtains, wall, and floor behind the sofa.

FTR, I again state that I will never buy into any theory that has the McCanns and/or their friends panicked into the rapid disposal of a body.
Thanks for that link.  I am thinking that perhaps the curtains being 'washed' as stated in police report could mean, just washing (sponging) the part that was 'dirty'.  I mean, taking down the curtains, washing them and rehanging them is a big job and they would probably still have been noticeably wet by the time the police arrived that evening (assuming that the washing machine had not been used before 3 May).

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 21.10.13 23:25

I've yet to master the art of sponging a stain without soaking the surrounding material and, as the temperature in Portugal in early May 2007 wasn't conducive for speedy drying, there would have been noticeable damp/wet areas on the curtains if they'd been sponged/washed within a couple of hours of the GNR's arrival at 5A.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 22.10.13 1:40

@Curioser wrote:Thanks everyone for answering and thank you admin. I will neaten it up some and PM them. Thanks for getting back to me. 

And to plebgate and aquila, no no. Someone suggested I might be scaremongering the last time I posted and it scared me off the forum! 

I tend to be a lurker more than anything and so putting my head above the parapet is very uncomfortable. On top of that I am scared of attracting their attention. They are quite brutal. I'm hoping I can live my life without reference to oncologists, police and lawyers. So far, so good :-)
Morning.

For those wondering why I originally singled out PM and TB it's because they have a reputation and history on the topic being respectively an ex-copper and sued by T M so I thought they would have a good idea of how T M work. Also I had read their posts and respected them. When I first posted, Admin told me that I should edit it and send it by PM to both men. I did that. 

For whatever reason they haven't got back to me. Reasons that spring to mind are: they're busy, it's a stupid theory with lots of newbie holes, it was too long to read, they didn't want to get unwanted attention by entering discussion, they thought I was a troll or a plant, they couldn't be bothered wading through the poor formatting caused by cutting and pasting from Word, they just didn't feel like it and they have more important things in their lives than me.

In retrospect, after other posters pointing it out to me, I realised it was silly to ask TB as it might get him into serious hot water. I've apologised for that and I won't do it again.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 22.10.13 1:43

@pulch wrote:Am I going mad but didn't you already post that theory up? Earlier or last night? It does sound plausible though!
Yes, sorry I did. The blue bag thread had some really similar stuff in it and it prompted me to actually post some of my thoughts. People have told me numerous times that Admin will delete anything libelous and they seem to be very on the ball so I decided just to post it. 

Then I thought, well it should really be on this thread because it's what this thread is about. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 22.10.13 2:02

@ultimaThule wrote:Yes, it would and, together with many other posters, I have put that very same reason forward as motive for concealing Madeleine's body on other threads dotdot.

The theory I've outlined on this thread is merely one of many I've come up with and it is, by far, the most optimistic explanation as to why/how Madeleine disappeared.  It was formulated after observing clan McCann and Uncle Brian Kennedy's remarkable cheerfulness in the days following Madeleine's disappearance - I didn't see any signs of grief on any of their faces and they gave every impression of the event being a cause for rejoicing rather than regretting.

A dog called Eddie shot this particular theory down in flames and those elements which appear to have been preplanned, such as the ready availability of postcard photos of Madeleine in the red dress and the fundraising website created in 2006, would seem to be nothing more than additions to the long list of coincidences which have been reported on this forum, but I must confess to continuing to being curious about why the Canadian nanny upped and left before the holiday and why it seems the press haven't tracked her down and offered shedloads of dosh for an 'exclusive' story of her life with the McCanns.     

If, as would seem to be the case, Madeleine died in Aparment 5A, curioser, her death may have occurred in the manner you have outlined.  However, taking into account the revised timeline established by SY last Monday night, Gerry McCann returned to the apartment c9.10-9.15pm and saw Madeleine alive in her bed.

Of course nothing the McCanns and the Tapas 7 say can be taken as gospel, but if GM found Madeleine dead c9.15pm  your theory hasn't as yet explained why the child's body should be moved around the apartment (Eddie scented cadaverine in the wardrobe area of the McCanns' bedroom), nor does it explain how the curtains came to be washed and dried and rehung and all traces of the child's presence in the apartment removed by the time the GNR arrived at 11.10pm, given that the McCanns' account has it that the alarm was raised by KM at 10pm after which 5A can be likened to Paddington Station with numerous individuals, including Mark Warner staff, going in and out.  

Given their natures,  it's highly unlikely either of the McCanns would be panicked into the speedy disposal of a body.  If you reset your theory to have taken place on Wednesday 2nd May it may grow legs but, unless the McCanns wholly embrace the Catholic concept of confession being good for the soul and make theirs outside of the confessional, it's unlikely we'll ever know the truth of how their eldest daughter came to die in Portugal.

I thought the same, pulch.  I'm sure I've seen 'make up sex while child meets with a fatal accident' on another thread but this case, and the McCanns in particular, is enough to make anyone doubt their sanity.
To get this far I have discounted almost everything that the Tapas 8 have said. I think Dianne Webster was probably in the dark at the time. I'm speculating that Gerry did not see her alive at 9.15. I'll post a bit more up about the aftermath.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 22.10.13 2:08

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Truthandjustice wrote:When were the curtains washed? and how do we know that?
See here: http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/01/madeleine-mccann-facts-in-beginning.html

It's possible curtains/walls etc were washed as part of preparation for the holiday season prior to the McCanns' arrival but, as Hobs and tigger have frequently shown, linguistic analysis of the McCanns' statements reveal stories other than those which they want to be seen as being 'the truth'.

KM has made mention of workmen attending 5A on the morning of 3rd May to repair the shutters which 'Gerry's touch' had caused be inoperable and also fix a problem she had with the washing machine which, according to her account, was easily remedied as it consisted of being little more than her not understanding the control mechanism.

From this account one can deduce the the washing machine had not been used prior to the morning of 3rd May and it may be there was need of the machine on that date because Madeleine had died earlier leaving blood on the curtains, wall, and floor behind the sofa.

FTR, I again state that I will never buy into any theory that has the McCanns and/or their friends panicked into the rapid disposal of a body.
I'm guessing that there was at least three people helping Gerry clean up. One possibility is that they took the curtains down, took them away to be washed and swapped in curtains from another room. I haven't been there and maybe each apartment has different furnishings. Does anyone know? But cheap apartments like this often have the same colour scheme and furnishings. 

My current thought is that they did panic on the night of the 3rd but Candyfloss bumped a Theory from a German site that is swaying me to thinking it happened the previous day. I don't know. I'll have to look at it again and think about that. Whoever Johanna is, we've come to a lot of the same conclusions independently so that's really interesting. http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com.au/p/theory-english.html

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 22.10.13 3:02

Someone mentioned that they would have seen Madeleine behind the couch if they left their bedroom after making up and went to the bathroom to bath/shower/dry hair etc. 

I don't think they would have necessarily seen her. If the couch was out from the wall a bit - and it looks really bad with it pushed up against the wall - Madeleine could have been lying in the centre behind the couch there without being obvious at all. Here are photos and a map. 

The photos are one image. It's the bottom one mainly. If the couch was out from the wall I reckon you could easily walk past and not see her behind there. It would be embarrassing for them though I guess.

And the map of the apartment:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwtheflat.jpg&target=tlx_picoyc7

I've taken the map from the McCann files and adjusted it to be a bit more accurate. It was missing the dog-leg in the wall beside the couch where blood/fluids were found. I've marked it in red. 

You can see that the dog-leg return would serve to hide the back of the couch somewhat and the other couch hides it too. 


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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 22.10.13 3:58

So here's the next bit:

8.35          They arrive at the Tapas bar and talk to Stephen Carpenter.  Raj Balu and Neil Perry are waiting for their takeaway. The Oppenhiemer guy with his three kids tells Carpenter he is flying back to Switzerland in the morning. The others arrive. They have dinner, have a few drinks etc. Talk loudly, laugh and tell stories.
                Gerry alleges:
                21H05 MATHEW returned, the time at which the deponent left the table to go to check how his children were.
----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge, he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought strange, having then put together the thought of MADELEINE having got up to go to sleep in his bedroom so as to avoid the noise produced [created] by her siblings. In this way he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and is certain of this, that the three were sleeping deeply. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, [then] going to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the blinds, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the lounge.

9.05                  Gerry goes to check and can’t find Maddie. He quickly looks around the apartment and still can’t find her. He goes to find Jane who he knows is nearby checking her children. They both look without success.
9.10                  Executive Chef, Arlindo epifanio Goncalves Fernandes Pelega sees one table occupied by three couples. (ie. three men, three women. If one woman was Webster then two women and one man not at the table Gerry and Kate and Jane?) – Executive Chef is probably fairly reliable – he’s in charge of all the restaurants.
9.20                  Jane returns to tell the group Then they all rush to go and look, calling as they go because she might have wandered outside. They split up and search the apartments and gardens. Kate goes straight to the apartment.

9.15 – 9.30        Steven Carpenter’s wife hears someone calling Madeleine
9.20                  Executive Chef heard clamour – was told a child was missing
9.20                  Meanwhile, Kate finds Madeliene behind the couch, dead and cooling. Kate calls for Gerry.
                        They pull the sofa out and Madeleine rolls away from the wall revealing her pink pencil case underneath her. She’s still warm, although cooler than normal and she flops in his arms.
                Gerry picks her up, swings around anti-clockwise and rushes into the bedroom, past the cots, to put her on the bed near the door. That’s why there is blood spatter high up on the north wall next to the sofa. As he held her in his arms and spun around the blood was thrown off onto the wall.  They try to revive her.  Amelie wakes up and starts to whimper.  Perhaps they give the twins something to sleep at this point or a bit later to prevent them saying something revealing to the wrong person.
9.25                  The other members of the group rush into the apartment when they fail to find Madeleine outside. They find Gerry and Kate distraught in the bedroom trying to revive Maddie but it quickly becomes clear to everyone that she is gone.
                          They are all in shock. Kate is crying, “Oh Madeleine. My beautiful little girl.” After a few minutes Gerry, the cool cardiologist that he is, says, “It’s a tragedy, but it’s happened. Madeleine wouldn’t want us to suffer because of it. What about the twins? We owe it to them. We need to make this go away.”  The others protest. “How?” “What do you mean?” “We can’t do that.” “That would be wrong.” “What if we’re found out?” “We’ll all go to jail.”
                          The tapas 9 come to grips with what has happened. They know that there are child neglect laws in Portugal and are unaware that there has to be intent to harm and/or they can’t afford for there to be an autopsy because the children are sedated and they have used inappropriate medication on their kids, there would be evidence of child abuse or something else. This would result in them losing their license to practice – possibly all the doctors. At any rate it would be a huge scandal. (David Payne was worried enough to call Child Services at 11.30 the following night. God knows why he would call them so late, unless it was a mistake and he used redial or something – no that can’t be it. They had other phones by this time. )
                          They quickly talk about the necessity of covering up the death.
                          They decide on abduction as this removes Madeleine and the evidence she could provide. They realize they will have to remove the body. They discuss the best way to do this and decide to quickly wash her, change her pajamas and carry her as though she is asleep. They have to get her out of the apartment as quickly as they can. Time is getting away from them. Fiona reminds them that Diane Webster will wonder what’s happening and come up to the apartment soon and they’re not sure she will co-operate.
9.30                  Gerry carries Madeleine down the stairs and notices Jez coming up the hill. He quickly places the body in the bushes and goes out on the street to talk to Jez. He waits until Jez is gone, picks up Madeleine and carries her towards the beach being careful to check for people as he goes. He starts to walk down the hill on the empty Rua da Escola Primaria, when a group of people appear from nowhere. He forgot or didn’t know about the stairs up from the bar to the street.
                
                The rest of the group have a big clean up to do. They will have to clean the floor and walls, wash the sheets from the bed.  They might even need to swap over the mattress. They have to take the sheets off the cots because they have blood dropped or smeared on them. Kate is covered in blood. A couple of people clean up the blood. Kate goes to wash and change into clean clothes. Matt takes down the curtain and goes to their apartment. He throws the curtain in the wash, takes down their identical curtain and puts the clean curtain up back in the McCann’s apartment. They push the couch against the wall to cover any blood they've missed (or it's the same curtain sponged and damp). Russell takes the sheets over to his apartment and puts the bloodied sheets in the wash. He collects sheets from one of their beds to take back.  He takes the clean sheets back to the McCann’s apartment. He makes up the bed and, not knowing where Madeleine slept, he assumes the bed by the door was Madeleine’s. He turns the sheets down and place the cat and blanket on the bed in an effort to make it look slept in. Perhaps he was asked to put them “on Madeleine’s bed” but didn’t know that she slept by the window (if she did). He had never been in the apartment before and had only seen Madeleine's body on the bed by the door. Maybe no-one noticed until it was too late.


9.40                  Diane Webster comes up from the Tapas. They tell her that Madeleine is missing and ask her to go up to the Payne apartment to get her out of the way. She notes that GM was not there.
9.45                  The rest of the group desperately create a coherent story with a timeline they can all stick to. 
10.00                 Gerry is seen by all the Smiths at around 10. He finds a place to leave Maddie on the beach (or near the church?) and then rushes back to the apartment.     

 10.00               MMMdS saw no movement of people on the street near the apartment.

10.20               When Gerry has hidden the body he returns to the apartment. He tells them he was seen by a group of people. They panic. Jane agrees to say she saw Gerry, Jez and the abductor at 9.15 providing Gerry with an alibi. They write  and rewrite the timeline so they can get it straight. Kate opens the window and the shutters. Gerry changes out of his light coloured buttoned jeans and throws them on the bed. His fleece and shirt have blood and fluids on them so he shoves them his tennis bag in the cupboard in the bedroom.

                          They agree that they have a pact. Rachael, the lawyer, recommends no-one says anything very definite, to say they didn’t take their phones to the Tapas so they can’t be precise with time, that they can’t remember details. They just need to create uncertainty and doubt. If they stick pretty much to the truth but add some details and change some times around it will create a confusing mess. If they all stick to the story they will be alright.
                          They discuss the “abduction” and decide to get the press involved to put out their version of events as quickly as possible. They call their relatives to let them know the story. They call any contacts they have in the media. Others get in touch with government contacts and ask for consular assistance. They print up photos and posters.
9.30                  Meanwhile the Warner and Ocean Club staff have mobilized to look for a missing child.
9.30-10.00         Helder Jorge Samaio Luis was notified at reception of the missing child and contacted GNR in Lagos immediately (or at 10.50 when the police have a call recorded?)
10.28               John Hill, Manager of the Ocean Club, is notified that a child is missing.
10.30               Mrs Fenn hears “We’ve let her down.” etc.
10.45               John Hill goes to the apartment. Gerry and Kate are there.
10.55               Helder Luis rang again when John Hill and Gerry arrived at reception. (Hmm)
                         
11.00               Silvia Batista, manager of the Ocean Club, arrives at the apartment. She is informed that the     GNR at reception so she goes there. Gerry and Russell follow her to reception to see the GNR.
11.00               GNR arrive at the main reception. Gerry rages and does his bowing piece.
11.14               Gerry calls Kate (8 seconds)
11.15               The GNR take Silvia, Gerry and Russell back to the apartment.
11.17               Gerry calls Kate (31 seconds)
11.20               Silvia notes that there are lots of people inside and none of them are searching.
11.20+             Much phone calling and gnashing of teeth. I think they probably were genuinely distraught but they were also laying groundwork for their story. The apartment is finally cleared and photographed and the McCanns are moved to another apartment. People search most of the night.
4th May
                          The next day they decide to confuse things even more by dragging Robert Murat into the story. Again they muddy the waters. Perhaps they thought they could really frame him. Perhaps they did bring the body back up and bury it in his garden. Or did they put it in a barn wrapped in an Aztec rug as one report would have it?
 
 
 


 
Discrepancies:
I’ve tried to work everything in but there are some things I can’t fit into my theory.
For example, a waiter remembers that Jane came back from “checking the children”, Russell left and when Russell returned his steak was reheated or they cooked another one, depending on who you believe. So the waiter is an independent witness. Does that mean that Jane knew what had happened, or even just that Maddie was missing, and sent Russell to help Gerry. Kate was “moaning” that Gerry had been away from the table for a long time. Did Gerry not want to panic Kate? Was he guilty that he hadn’t checked on the children before he went to dinner? There is still something rubbery about this but I need to think about it.
Another  example. Jez says he thinks he saw Gerry sometime between 8.45 and 9.15 but he wasn’t particularly sure.  I’ve stretched it to somewhere around 9.35. (Unless Gerry, Matt and Russell decided it would be better to take the body out as quickly as possible, and before telling Kate. That would explain Kate crying, “They’ve taken her!”.)
Another example. Raj Balu, his wife, Neil Berry and his wife were sitting on the veranda and heard Gerry calling Madeleine loudly they think at about ten. This doesn’t quite fit my timeline.
I’ve tried a lot of scenarios. Perhaps it was more like this:
7.15                  Kids in bed
7.25                  Sex
7.30                  Maddie falls
8.30ish            Jeremy Wilkins sees Jane Tanner on ‘the street’ in front of the apartments, probably on the way to dinner.
8.30                  KH and GM arrive at Tapas and chat to Carpenters
9.05                  Gerry goes to check – can’t find Madeleine
                          He looks in the apartment then out on the balcony. He sees Jane going back to the table. He calls out to her. Jane, I can’t find Maddie. She’s not here.
                          They go into the apartment.  “Have you looked in the cupboards? She might be hiding.” “No. No I haven’t. Good idea.” Gerry looks in the cupboards while Jane looks in the bathroom and then she finds her behind the couch. “Oh no. Gerry. Oh no. Here she is.” (then as above) until…
                          Jane goes back to the table and tells Russell and Matt that Gerry needs a hand. They go and help Gerry. They clean up, wash Maddie, and decide on the cover up. They swap the curtains. Matt goes back to the table. Russell strips the bed and cots (as above) and throws them in the wash. Russell goes back to the table, tells Jane to go back, eats his reheated steak. Maybe Jane takes Kate back. When the Executive Chef walks by he sees three couples so one man and two women are missing. Gerry breaks the news. Kate  or Jane return and tell the others that Madeleine is missing.
                          All except Diane Webster go to help. She’s pretty sanguine. Kids wander off and turn up all the time. “I’ll wait here in case Maddie comes here looking for Kate.”
                          They rest of the group head back to the apartment calling for Madeleine ( are heard by independent witness), either because they think she is really missing or because they are aware of the abduction story.
                          OR
                          Gerry and Jane know and Gerry stays for a while cleaning up. (Kate was moaning that he was away for a long time).  Jane returns and sends Russell and Matt down to help. Gerry cleans (maybe bathes) Madeleine and puts her in his sports bag in the cupboard. They discuss a cover story. Gerry goes back to the table and pretends all is ok. Matt cleans up the floor behind the sofa and the specks of blood and fluid he can see. Then he pushes the sofa up against the wall to hide the blood at the base of the curtain and returns to the table. Russell takes the bloody clothes and washes them at his apartment. Russell returns. Jane goes back to the apartment. and waits for Kate? Russell’s steak is warmed up for him or they cooked a new one depending on who you listen to. Kate goes to make her check and Madeleine has vanished. Perhaps her real reaction? Then they tell her later and she cradles her child’s (cleaned) body.

                         
Comment:    Maybe the McCanns are adamant that Madeleine didn’t die because they were absent, because they were there. And all the fuss about the child checking seems irrelevant to them because they still believe that that wasn’t the problem. They weren’t there at that moment – very precise – so they weren’t with Madeleine when she fell, but they were actually in the apartment so whether they did child checking or not wouldn’t have helped. However if they had been in the apartment for the evening they probably would have smelt, heard, noticed something wrong or maybe popped their head in to the bedroom to check the kids or maybe one of the twins would have stirred and they would have gone into the room to check on them and found Madeleine out of bed. So it could have been a contributing factor. 


If you've read this far, congratulations :-) It's still very rubbery and obviously I've tried to stick to facts from the files with wild speculation filling in the gaps. I do not say that this is what happened. I'm just exploring possibilities. 

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by russiandoll on 22.10.13 9:09

truthandjustice  : re your statement about 3rd May and Kate referring to a washing machine repair on this day, it is incorrect. These repairs to blind and machine were Tuesday May 1st.

The dockets signature shows it was returned to admin with the work completed. It was signed by the operative. The signature confirms that the repairman attended at apartment G5A of the Ocean Club, Waterside Gardens, on Tuesday 1st of May 2007. There the maintenance man instructed Kate McCann in the use of her automatic washing machine and he also effected a repair to one set of window blinds at the apartment.

In the police files and Kate's book, the washing machine repair and repair to blinds in their room [ heavy- handed Gerry gets the blame for the problem!] date is May 1st.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Truthandjustice on 22.10.13 9:16

@russiandoll wrote:truthandjustice  : re your statement about 3rd May and Kate referring to a washing machine repair on this day, it is incorrect. These repairs to blind and machine were Tuesday May 1st.

The dockets signature shows it was returned to admin with the work completed. It was signed by the operative. The signature confirms that the repairman attended at apartment G5A of the Ocean Club, Waterside Gardens, on Tuesday 1st of May 2007. There the maintenance man instructed Kate McCann in the use of her automatic washing machine and he also effected a repair to one set of window blinds at the apartment.

In the police files and Kate's book, the washing machine repair and repair to blinds in their room [ heavy- handed Gerry gets the blame for the problem!] date is May 1st.
Thank you for that correction.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by sami on 22.10.13 9:33

@Curioser wrote:Someone mentioned that they would have seen Madeleine behind the couch if they left their bedroom after making up and went to the bathroom to bath/shower/dry hair etc. 

I don't think they would have necessarily seen her. If the couch was out from the wall a bit - and it looks really bad with it pushed up against the wall - Madeleine could have been lying in the centre behind the couch there without being obvious at all. Here are photos and a map. 

The photos are one image. It's the bottom one mainly. If the couch was out from the wall I reckon you could easily walk past and not see her behind there. It would be embarrassing for them though I guess.

And the map of the apartment:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwtheflat.jpg&target=tlx_picoyc7

I've taken the map from the McCann files and adjusted it to be a bit more accurate. It was missing the dog-leg in the wall beside the couch where blood/fluids were found. I've marked it in red. 

You can see that the dog-leg return would serve to hide the back of the couch somewhat and the other couch hides it too. 

The twins cots are not in the correct position in that diagram.  I am not trying to split hairs but their position is important not least for giving easy access from the door to the window and also for determining whether or not the children were visible from the door during visual checks, in particular the cot with the solid end panel.  Just my opinion.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 22.10.13 10:01

@Truthandjustice wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:truthandjustice  : re your statement about 3rd May and Kate referring to a washing machine repair on this day, it is incorrect. These repairs to blind and machine were Tuesday May 1st.

The dockets signature shows it was returned to admin with the work completed. It was signed by the operative. The signature confirms that the repairman attended at apartment G5A of the Ocean Club, Waterside Gardens, on Tuesday 1st of May 2007. There the maintenance man instructed Kate McCann in the use of her automatic washing machine and he also effected a repair to one set of window blinds at the apartment.

In the police files and Kate's book, the washing machine repair and repair to blinds in their room [ heavy- handed Gerry gets the blame for the problem!] date is May 1st.
Thank you for that correction.
I'm the one in error, rd, and I apologise to Tandj for misleading them in respect of the date of the window blinds and  washing machine repairs.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by PeterMac on 22.10.13 10:05

The diagram also does not show the garden area between the stairs and the alleyway.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 22.10.13 11:16

@sami wrote:
@Curioser wrote:Someone mentioned that they would have seen Madeleine behind the couch if they left their bedroom after making up and went to the bathroom to bath/shower/dry hair etc. 

I don't think they would have necessarily seen her. If the couch was out from the wall a bit - and it looks really bad with it pushed up against the wall - Madeleine could have been lying in the centre behind the couch there without being obvious at all. Here are photos and a map. 

The photos are one image. It's the bottom one mainly. If the couch was out from the wall I reckon you could easily walk past and not see her behind there. It would be embarrassing for them though I guess.

And the map of the apartment:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwtheflat.jpg&target=tlx_picoyc7

I've taken the map from the McCann files and adjusted it to be a bit more accurate. It was missing the dog-leg in the wall beside the couch where blood/fluids were found. I've marked it in red. 

You can see that the dog-leg return would serve to hide the back of the couch somewhat and the other couch hides it too. 

The twins cots are not in the correct position in that diagram.  I am not trying to split hairs but their position is important not least for giving easy access from the door to the window and also for determining whether or not the children were visible from the door during visual checks, in particular the cot with the solid end panel.  Just my opinion.
Yes, you're right. At best it's a diagram. I got it from the McCann files site. It was the best plan I could find at the time.  I only adjusted the bit I was interested in and I should have cropped it and made it more appropriate. It's not to scale I think either. Here we go. 


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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 22.10.13 11:18

@PeterMac wrote:The diagram also does not show the garden area between the stairs and the alleyway.
Hi PeterMac. You're right. It's a pretty poor rendition of the flat. See above for an edited version. I'm only trying to show that they could easily have gone about their business on the way to dinner without seeing Madeleine behind the couch.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Woofer on 22.10.13 12:43

Blimey Curioser, you have really given some thought to a possible scenario - well done for that.

I`m sure it can be fine tuned with the help of the critical minds here.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Estelle on 22.10.13 14:51

@Woofer wrote:Blimey Curioser, you have really given some thought to a possible scenario - well done for that.

I`m sure it can be fine tuned with the help of the critical minds here.
Bravo! I do not have the patience to do that.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by PeterMac on 22.10.13 15:44

@Curioser wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:The diagram also does not show the garden area between the stairs and the alleyway.
Hi PeterMac. You're right. It's a pretty poor rendition of the flat. See above for an edited version. I'm only trying to show that they could easily have gone about their business on the way to dinner without seeing Madeleine behind the couch.
Agreed. Also the previous evening, Gerry went home and straight to bed, Kate went later and probably upset, threw herself into the spare bed in the children's room possibly without putting on the light, and cried herself to sleep.
In the morning - M cold and stiff behind the sofa, and they have one day to get everything right.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Guest on 22.10.13 15:44

Curioser theory, both parts have now been added to 1st page of this thread, and the title changed from the 'Any advice etc' title.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Guest on 22.10.13 15:59

candyfloss wrote:Curioser theory, both parts have now been added to 1st page of this thread, and the title changed from the 'Any advice etc' title.  
Thank you...that's better thumbsup

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