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Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 05.11.13 18:28

dantezebu wrote:columbostogeys Today at 5:09 am wrote
"Did anyone see that photo of them on the bed with their bottoms up in the air like they were crying to Allah, and in the doorway was a GNR policemen looking shocked. I cant find it again, i wonder if it has been carter rucked. BUT for me make enough of a scene/crying/wailing, to ensure the police leave the bedroom area alone until they can move out"

My belief is that this performance was to steer the police away from the broken bed...

NSPCC 
Child homicides statistics: March 2013



On average, every week in England and Wales one child is killed at the hands of another person.



Over two thirds of children killed at the hands of another person in England and Wales are aged under five years.



Every ten days in England and Wales one child is killed at the hands of their parent. In over two thirds (67% on average) of all cases of children killed at the hands of another person, the parent is the principal suspect.
The stats you've given shine  a light on the elephant in the room, dantezebu. 

Other than fear that autopsy may establish physical and/or other abuse, there can be no reason for the body of a child who meets with accidental death to be concealed.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by tigger on 05.11.13 19:26

dantezebu wrote:columbostogeys Today at 5:09 am wrote
"Did anyone see that photo of them on the bed with their bottoms up in the air like they were crying to Allah, and in the doorway was a GNR policemen looking shocked. I cant find it again, i wonder if it has been carter rucked. BUT for me make enough of a scene/crying/wailing, to ensure the police leave the bedroom area alone until they can move out"

My belief is that this performance was to steer the police away from the broken bed...

NSPCC 
Child homicides statistics: March 2013



On average, every week in England and Wales one child is killed at the hands of another person.



Over two thirds of children killed at the hands of another person in England and Wales are aged under five years.



Every ten days in England and Wales one child is killed at the hands of their parent. In over two thirds (67% on average) of all cases of children killed at the hands of another person, the parent is the principal suspect.
@ ColumbocollyThere was no photograph such as you describe. Possibly a clip from the documentary 'truth of the lie'.

The GNR searched 5a that evening. Their dogs are pretty certain to have reacted to a fresh cadaver as the following  day they exhibited interest outside an apartment which had a fridge with rotting meat in it. 

Read the files is my advice. It's all in the reports, in English.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 05.11.13 19:51

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:-snip-
I could imagine that in a court of law with a top QC, the given story would unravel in layers at a touch.  That is my hope for Madeleine and for some justice.
As it's unlikely any competent defence lawyer would advise clients of uncertain temper and a propensity to tell porkies to take the stand, I suspect all that could be unravelled would take the form of one of the anondyne accounts purported here.

No parents, let alone those who are medical professionals, would seek to conceal the body of a child who met with a fatal accidental injury unless they had concern as to what would emerge on autopsy.
Point taken, ultimaThule; my knowledge of legal proceedings is very limited, but my understanding is that, if a prosecution lawyer calls a witness to attend court and to give evidence (subpoena?) then they have no option but to comply?  Whether or not a defence lawyer might try with all their might to avoid just that.  What do you fee
To "I suspect all that could be unravelled would take the form of one of the anondyne accounts purported here" I should have added "unless a full and frank confession is made by one or more parties to the event'.

Despite inclining to the view that questioning under caution may produce a stampede to give evidence for the prosecution, when giving consideration to the possibility of the McCanns standing trial on child neglect or more serious charges I've always envisaged a somewhat crowded dock. 

However, should one or more of the 7 recipients of Mr Desmond's £600,000 break rank, I imagine the prospect of being required to repay what is now, with legal fees, interest, etc, most probably in excess of a cool £100grand a head, may cause any dissenter(s) to not stray far from what, I believe, would have been collectively established some considerable time ago as the ultimate fall back position.

While both prosecution and defence are at liberty to subpoena witness(es) who express reluctance to testify on their behalf such a move can backfire and, given the McCanns together with some if not all of their pals are more slippery than a bucket full of eels, I would imagine both sides would seek to line their ducks up in places where they cannot easily be shot down.
Still have the feeling that these ducks may well be more vulnerable than they seem, and may yet see a day in court (or months).  Perhaps with a natty orange sauce even.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Hobs on 05.11.13 20:14

The problem with the theory they put her in the holdall and took her with them when they changed apartments is apartment 5a was the pnly apartment that the dogs indicated in. therefore they couldn't have transferred her when they moved.
The photos show the blue bag in the wardrobe, as it was present she would have been inside it, i would assume that they would have not only taken photos they would have been moving things as well as photographing things exactly as they were ( perhaps to reveal something concealed)

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 05.11.13 20:32

@columbostogeys wrote:
On another tact. Gerry went and checked his kids, maddy was asleep he then went out and and bumped into Jez. In the meantime the noise of him using toilet etc, woke the child up. She went into the sitting room and could hear her dad maybe and she got onto the settee to look out window, fell off feel behind the settee hitting her head very hard....

Mum comes in 10pm finds her missing, panic ensues....everyone looking cant find her outside etc, mum stays in apartment.

The police were called and they came and took a statement and asked questions and a search team were outside looking. EVERYONE was outside looking for what they thought was just a missing child. The police hardly bothered with the inside of the apartment.....

What if the child wasnt found untli much later?

Perhaps the mother doing another look suddenly sees her behind the settee.....they were inside most of the night others were searching.

Is this far fetched NO.

So it could happen that the child lay where she fell and no one had noticed, as they were looking for her OUTSIDE.  IF this was the case the parents then had time to think about what to do. They knew that they would be in trouble with authorities, so continued with the abduction theme and actually fuelled it even more. I am not convinced their friends were involved to be honest.

Its so simple really. The child was put in a bag placed in the wardrobe and in the morning when the police had them moved out of the apartment to start forensics they took her with them. You have to remember we are dealing with two experienced doctors here who are not prone to panic.

So simple. The body could have been kept in a large suitcase wrapped in a pink blanket covered in sand and shut tight. This would mummify and dehydrate and the body would not leave an odour.

There was a case in Japan where the guy put the body in the bath he had on his verandah and it was filled with sand. Sand was used in Eygpt to mummify and preserve bodies.


"Its so simple really. The child was put in a bag placed in the wardrobe and in the morning when the police had them moved out of the apartment to start forensics they took her with them. You have to remember we are dealing with two experienced doctors here who are not prone to panic."


Within a short time of the PJ arriving on the scene, the sleeping twins and their parents were moved to the Paynes' apartment taking very little with them.  As the photographs taken by the CSO in the early hours of 4 May show,  the blue bag is clearly visible in the wardrobe and a neatly folded pink blanket is shown on the bed where Madeleine was alleged to have last been seen by her father.

While I will never buy into any theory that has GM/KM/and/or their pals panicking, it has amused me to conjure up thoroughly unpleasant visions of Gerry OnTheCan if he and his spouse had been escorted out of 5A while the body remained inside with the police crawling all over the apartment.  I reckon he would have thrown his toys out of one of the buggies they didn't take with them big grin 

Nor, incidentally, does your theory provide explanation of how the apartment came to be cleaned to an almost forensic standard removing all trace of Madeleine's existence when, as far as I'm aware, the McCanns and their pals were given no further access to it after they'd left.

So simple. The body could have been kept in a large suitcase wrapped in a pink blanket covered in sand and shut tight. This would mummify and dehydrate and the body would not leave an odour.

A very large suitcase would be needed to mummify a child's body in the manner you've suggested and the weight of the sand would render it extremely heavy to lift/manouevre. 

Much simpler to bury a lightly clad body to a depth of 4' on the beach where the sand would absorb the liquids and other proceeds of putrefacation, and where the odour would not be detectable to the average hound, pending its removal to a less public place as and when opportunity presented itself.

Fwiw, a protracted method of embalming using natron and oils was deployed to preserve the bodies of the Egyptian aristocracy and other exalted personages, while the hoi polloi took their chances in the desert or in earth which was not considered suitable for cultivation.  The fact that sand preserves flesh was as accidental to the ancient Egyptians as burial in the permafrost, where features can remain recognisable centuries after death, was to the inhabitants of the far northern regions.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 05.11.13 20:43

@Searcher wrote:Still have the feeling that these ducks may well be more vulnerable than they seem, and may yet see a day in court (or months).  Perhaps with a natty orange sauce even.
I live in hope the turkeys are ready to be plucked and it's merely a question of digging up the spuds and sorting out the trimmings before they're banged up bunged in the oven in time for Christmas. 

I can see those ducks paddling on a lake of very natty orange sauce while KM does her long suffering dying swan impression, Searcher.  I wonder if she'll buy a new pizza hat for her performance?  big grin

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 05.11.13 20:44

My own feeling fwiw is that Madeleine was gone from the apartment before 3 May. It needed time to clean up the apartment, and I still come back to the alleged cry "They've taken her".  If that is true then, at such a time of extremis, it is quite possible that a truthful roar just burst out. 

I am also interested in the cleaning cupboard, I think in the apt. block, which allegedly had the lock broken, and also why the OC cleaner was turned away on the morning of the 2nd, if I have that right. I can probably search for a thread here on both of these issues as I think they have been discussed before.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 05.11.13 20:49

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:Still have the feeling that these ducks may well be more vulnerable than they seem, and may yet see a day in court (or months).  Perhaps with a natty orange sauce even.
I live in hope the turkeys are ready to be plucked and it's merely a question of digging up the spuds and sorting out the trimmings before they're banged up bunged in the oven in time for Christmas. 

I can see those ducks paddling on a lake of very natty orange sauce while KM does her long suffering dying swan impression, Searcher.  I wonder if she'll buy a new pizza hat for her performance?  big grin
You have surely made me chuckle, ultimaThule:  a glorious menagerie of all sorts!  Turkeys, of course, do not vote for Christmas, and the dying swan is a protected bird that few are privileged to touch!   However, the one we haven't mentioned is the goose - Christmas is coming and the goose is getting fat.  Is there a penny for the poor man's hat?  It could be an interesting festive season; let's hope it brings some Peace for Madeleine as well.    Hmmm.  high5

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 05.11.13 20:53

.. the hat would be essential of course, to collect the pennies.  big grin

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 05.11.13 21:37

@Searcher wrote:.. the hat would be essential of course, to collect the pennies.  big grin
Oddly enough, I've written a little ditty to the tune of 'Christmas is coming' for the McCanns. 

All I need is a picture of the happy couple wearing broad grins and santa hats and I will publish and be damned if I don't yes

Unfortunately, my photoshopping skills are non-existent but if someone can do the necessary for me I'll be much obliged and will credit them accordingly.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 05.11.13 21:59

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:.. the hat would be essential of course, to collect the pennies.  big grin
Oddly enough, I've written a little ditty to the tune of 'Christmas is coming' for the McCanns. 

All I need is a picture of the happy couple wearing broad grins and santa hats and I will publish and be damned if I don't yes

Unfortunately, my photoshopping skills are non-existent but if someone can do the necessary for me I'll be much obliged and will credit them accordingly.
I am quietly hopeful that Christmas may be joyful and interesting, with a little musical embellishment to boot.  If santa hats are included, all the merrier.  thumbsup

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 05.11.13 23:10

@Searcher wrote:My own feeling fwiw is that Madeleine was gone from the apartment before 3 May. It needed time to clean up the apartment, and I still come back to the alleged cry "They've taken her".  If that is true then, at such a time of extremis, it is quite possible that a truthful roar just burst out. 

I am also interested in the cleaning cupboard, I think in the apt. block, which allegedly had the lock broken, and also why the OC cleaner was turned away on the morning of the 2nd, if I have that right. I can probably search for a thread here on both of these issues as I think they have been discussed before
From the accounts of independent witnesses, we can be reasonably certain that KM paid a visit to 5A some considerable time before 10pm, in which case the alleged cry of 'They've taken her' could be words relevant to discovery that the body had been removed by those tasked with the chore prior to the appointed time and before a final goodbye could be said.

It's improbable the brusing which was apparent on KM's inner wrists on Sunday 6 May was incurred by banging her hands/arms in the manner she described and I would hazard a guess that, at some point, she was forcibly restrained - perhaps from chasing after the corpse.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Sockpuppet on 05.11.13 23:14

@ultimaThule wrote:From the accounts of independent witnesses, we can be reasonably certain that KM paid a visit to 5A some considerable time before 10pm, in which case the alleged cry of 'They've taken her' could be words relevant to discovery that the body had been removed by those tasked with the chore prior to the appointed time and before a final goodbye could be said.

It's improbable the brusing which was apparent on KM's inner wrists on Sunday 6 May was incurred by banging her hands/arms in the manner she described and I would hazard a guess that, at some point, she was forcibly restrained - perhaps from chasing after the corpse.
Alternatively, the scream that was heard that night could have been KM discovering the body while the Tapas group were searching for her.  'They've taken her' can just as much be attributed to KM lashing out because others in the group have decided to dispose of the body.  I agree that Kate's bruises may well have been the result of being restrained at this time.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 06.11.13 0:22

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:My own feeling fwiw is that Madeleine was gone from the apartment before 3 May. It needed time to clean up the apartment, and I still come back to the alleged cry "They've taken her".  If that is true then, at such a time of extremis, it is quite possible that a truthful roar just burst out. 

I am also interested in the cleaning cupboard, I think in the apt. block, which allegedly had the lock broken, and also why the OC cleaner was turned away on the morning of the 2nd, if I have that right. I can probably search for a thread here on both of these issues as I think they have been discussed before
From the accounts of independent witnesses, we can be reasonably certain that KM paid a visit to 5A some considerable time before 10pm, in which case the alleged cry of 'They've taken her' could be words relevant to discovery that the body had been removed by those tasked with the chore prior to the appointed time and before a final goodbye could be said.

It's improbable the brusing which was apparent on KM's inner wrists on Sunday 6 May was incurred by banging her hands/arms in the manner she described and I would hazard a guess that, at some point, she was forcibly restrained - perhaps from chasing after the corpse.
It sounds to me as though something took place which involved a "They" and that it was in some sense expected.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 16.11.13 0:03

Interesting that this is very similar to Nightfly's "Distractions" http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8417-distractions?highlight=distractions and RIPM's http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8463-why-the-mccanns-and-the-tapas-7-were-relaxed-at-dinner-on-3rd-may and I'm sure many others over the years before I was here. 

We're closing in I reckon on something that could be a workable theory, imho of course.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 16.11.13 0:57

@Curioser wrote:
We're closing in I reckon on something that could be a workable theory, imho of course.
It's not about 'closing in' on something that could be a workable theory; it's about giving full consideration to what worked for the McCanns and their friends.

To do this we need to explore their mindset which is far removed from that of rightminded people, but to do anything less is to deny justice for a 3 year old child who, in all probability, lost her life due to the actions of her parents.

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