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stephen birch

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Re: stephen birch

Post by tigger on 22.10.13 8:14

T
@dotdot wrote:ive now found this thread which sheds some light on the questions people have for Stephen Birch, so reading through it is answering my question as to where the skepticism is coming from.....  http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5264p40-questions-to-mr-stephen-birch

my personal standpoint when reviving this current post was that, even totally disregarding any words Stephen Birch has uttered, if he has hardcore proof that something is buried there (which I was under the impression that he has?), then it is worth digging.  he allegedly has these scans which have been reviewed by experts, so I could not understand why people would not take this as a serious possibility.

i guess its when he started purporting theories involving planting of DNA by the Portugese police in the hire car, then yes i can now see why people might discredit his claims...
I have asked him a few technical questions once and got no replies. His technical information is rubbish, the pictures he's provided could be from his own backyard and he's never named these experts nor provided their reports. 
All GPR does is to record sub-surface changes. Interpretation of these changes will only reveal 'features' or anomalies. It will not reveal 'something buried there' or reveal skeletal remains. That's X-ray. 
Birch is counting on an audience that will believe anything after ten years of  CSI....

Murat's garden was checked several times. The  last time I believe, the surface was 'perforated' with rods and the CSI dogs went over it. Nothing. 

Birch wants money and fame, truth has nothing to do with it. The public wants a good story, the press wants to sell a few million copies more newspapers.
Truth never even had a walk-on part in this whole saga.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by dotdot on 22.10.13 14:46


StraightThinking
But I don't see why. Every possibility has to be looked at and it's unanalytical to ignore one of them because you've already made your mind up
 I agree!  I think they should dig it up !  Pronto!


plebgate
I thought the police had already dug or scanned the driveway?

‘Digging for Madeleine’ facebook (and someone who appears to be Stephen Birch running that) says that they could not scan that particular area because it was covered in debris, the burial site he marks has a load of concrete wedges and things stacked over it.  Impossible to scan, so it became possible after RM paved over it nd the surface became flat.  That’s when Mr Birch broke in and scanned.  
 
Dotdot's post said that Birch had purported that the police had planted DNA evidence in the hire car, I may be wrong, but didn't this originally arise from the family?

‘Digging for Madeleine’ facebook says this last week:
 
Kate McCann's father, Brian Healy said the dna was planted in the McCann's hire car. Could the dna have been removed off the corpse in the Murat garden. Robert, was pleading that he'd been framed by the TAPPAS 9 to Martin Brunt from SKY NEWS in a documented and recorded telephone call. Did Robert find the corpse and plant the dna in the McCann hire car then inform his police friends to search a car that had been hired 25 days after Maddie went missing, or did someone else plant the dna.........? THE DRIVEWAY NEEDS TO BE DUG UP> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4bXgpVxm3g
 
The whole DNA planting thing sounds a little (alot) far out to me, but that’s just my instinct.

We never did hear anything further about the dig which was going to be seen by a billion people back in the summer.   Helicopters up in the sky etc.  Wonder why?

He appears to be trying (successfully) to gain public and media support and create pressure to make it happen.  As recently as 2 weeks ago he said he had been given permission by RM, but that seems to have gone all quiet...


tigger

Murat's garden was checked several times. The  last time I believe, the surface was 'perforated' with rods and the CSI dogs went over it. Nothing.

Birch wants money and fame, truth has nothing to do with it. The public wants a good story, the press wants to sell a few million copies more newspapers.
Truth never even had a walk-on part in this whole saga.

 
He is reiterating on facebook page that he does not actually want any money whatsoever.  ALL he wants is the driveway dug up.  Surely money and fame cannot be his motive as he has already spent more than he will ever earn from doing this, has said [to paraphrase as i cannot find the exact quote) he knows he will be made a fool of for the rest of his life if nothing is there, etc.  He did not intend this to drag on and on and become a media spectacle (or maybe you are right and he did?), but either way it could have easily been resolved a long time ago without that, however now he courts the media because its the only way he will get to dig!. 

A small portion of the driveway could easily be excavated and replaced with little or no trouble to RM, so WHY hasn’t it happened?  I really think they need to check it out!

is there any further info about the driveway being drilled and checked out by the dogs?  This is the first Ive heard of that.  But if they went that far, why not go the whole hog and just dig a little deeper if it were these particular claims which made them search RMs driveway in 2008, long after Madeleine went 'missing'.  what reason would they have to search RMs driveway that long after the fact.
 
I am skeptical too, but I think it could be possible?  How will we know?  Dig it up !

But I do wonder how Mr Birch initially came to believe a body is buried there. 

What harm would there be to just dig it up?  Why the resistance?






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Re: stephen birch

Post by plebgate on 22.10.13 15:01

digging for Maddie run by Mr. Birch - well he would say that wouldn't he!

The whole DNA planting story sounds absolutely wacky to me.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by dotdot on 22.10.13 15:05

@plebgate wrote:digging for Maddie run by Mr. Birch - well he would say that wouldn't he!

The whole DNA planting story sounds absolutely wacky to me.
that part sounds totally wacky to me too.  i admit, the whole thing sounds wacky, but i am trying to see his side of things because i cant see why it is being dismissed when it would just be easier to definitely rule it out.  maybe i am so interested in it because deep down i want her to be there, just because it means she will be found and the truth will come out.  this whole case is so crazy i just feel anything is a possibility...  i dont know whether he is on to something or not... but i wish they will just dig !!!

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Re: stephen birch

Post by plebgate on 22.10.13 15:09

What I cannot understand is why he would want helicopters in the air and throngs of media people watching, plus 1 billilon worldwide watching (that in itself I think is way off the mark).

It is reckoned it's not being done for money?    hmmmmmmm.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by dotdot on 22.10.13 15:14

haha, well yeah.... i dont know!  how will he get any money if she is not found there??

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Re: stephen birch

Post by plebgate on 22.10.13 15:18

Spivey did a piece on it a couple weeks back where he mentioned the deal struck between Murat and Birch.   Can't quite remember the detail but if you haven't seen it  is worth a look.  

If you haven't visited the site before have to say the language is pretty bad. 

I imagine the money side and contracts signed will be done with the tv companies before any dig is carried out?

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Re: stephen birch

Post by dotdot on 22.10.13 15:25

@plebgate wrote:Spivey did a piece on it a couple weeks back where he mentioned the deal struck between Murat and Birch.   Can't quite remember the detail but if you haven't seen it  is worth a look.  

If you haven't visited the site before have to say the language is pretty bad. 

I imagine the money side and contracts signed will be done with the tv companies before any dig is carried out?

smilie
yep im aware of that spivey piece, but it was my impression that it was RM who wanted money to allow Stephen Birch to dig, not that Birch would receive any financial gain from doing so?  & yeh that is what i read, that they were ironing out the legal details before the dig could proceed.  it seems weird to me that Birch is still drumming on about his petition to dig, etc, if he knows that he has been granted permission to do so in the near future....  maybe he has caught a little taste of fame and wants to bring this attention to himself, because he passionately believes he is onto something and he is 'shouting from the rooftops' in some respect.... dunno.... guess we will see what happens in time!

i still think its weird in that video when GM is asked whether he knows RM and he gets all annoyed and refuses to answer.  do you know the one I mean?  if they knew each other prior, then it is within reason that GM may have called on RMs help during the 'crisis'.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by plebgate on 22.10.13 15:28

It takes all sorts I suppose and as you say we shall have to wait and see.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by TMH on 22.10.13 16:33

@dotdot wrote:haha, well yeah.... i dont know!  how will he get any money if she is not found there??
 He said he will give exclusive rights to a TV company so I should think he'd make money from it. Why anyone in their right mind would want to dig up a rotting corpse (IF it is there) Is beyond me! And why would he think that people would want to watch it?? 

I think he wants 5 minutes of fame. I don't think he knows for sure that there is anything there or why would he say that he's got another spot to try??

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Re: stephen birch

Post by Ho Lee Fuq on 22.10.13 16:36

@TMH wrote:
@dotdot wrote:haha, well yeah.... i dont know!  how will he get any money if she is not found there??
 He said he will give exclusive rights to a TV company so I should think he'd make money from it. Why anyone in their right mind would want to dig up a rotting corpse (IF it is there) Is beyond me! And why would he think that people would want to watch it?? 

I think he wants 5 minutes of fame. I don't think he knows for sure that there is anything there or why would he say that he's got another spot to try??
If there is a rotting corpse there, of course it would have to be dug up to ascertain who it was and the cause of death.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by bristow on 22.10.13 16:38

Must say I do agree with dotdot why not just dig the drive, not worth having all this speculation.
If it was my drive I would want it done even if the guy who said a body might be there was a bit of a loon.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by dotdot on 22.10.13 16:52

@TMH wrote:
@dotdot wrote:haha, well yeah.... i dont know!  how will he get any money if she is not found there??
 He said he will give exclusive rights to a TV company so I should think he'd make money from it. Why anyone in their right mind would want to dig up a rotting corpse (IF it is there) Is beyond me! And why would he think that people would want to watch it?? 

I think he wants 5 minutes of fame. I don't think he knows for sure that there is anything there or why would he say that he's got another spot to try??
if he truly believes that she is there, he will of course want as much record of the actual recovery as possible, a media presence to document the whole thing.  if she is in there, it will be quite an historic event to be honest.  and there would be less room to dispute the facts surrounding her recovery if it is all closely recorded, so the offer to a TV company is not so out of bounds.  He has allegedly funded everything so far with his own money, and again, IF she is there, he deserves to recoup some of his cost.  If she isnt there, he will certainly be out of pocket and ridiculed for a long time to come, so what is in his interest to continue to make his claims?  he must believe he is telling the truth.

as for why anyone in their right mind would want to dig up a corpse?  well gosh, no one probably wants to at all!  but sometimes it is necessary in order for justice to be served.

i just think his claims need to be fully investigated.  not like he is asking alot.  the driveway could be again like new within 24h.  If anyone in this scenario is trying to make money it is RM, if what Stephen Birch is saying is true that RM is demanding money to allow excavation.

who knows.

one way to find out !

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Re: stephen birch

Post by Guest on 22.10.13 17:34

There's another way out. A dog, who will within seconds indicate whether there is or has been a cadaver there. Who knows whether that hasn't been done already?
Birch put me off, when he "suggested" that the PJ had found the body, took DNA to plant in the rental car and ... re-buried it again. Jeez ...

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Re: stephen birch

Post by Guest on 22.10.13 17:40

Yes, some people may not be aware that Mr Birch was a member here. Check out his postings in his own name and that of LEACHATE and see if you can still take him seriously!

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Re: stephen birch

Post by dotdot on 22.10.13 17:56

Châtelaine wrote:There's another way out. A dog, who will within seconds indicate whether there is or has been a cadaver there. Who knows whether that hasn't been done already?
Birch put me off, when he "suggested" that the PJ had found the body, took DNA to plant in the rental car and ... re-buried it again. Jeez ...
tigger had mentioned that they brought the dogs there and drilled holes in the driveway to allow easier dog sniffing, and that it yielded nothing from the dogs.  i would really like to know more about this if there is any source of that info - because then I would be able to put this 'she is buried under the driveway' stuff out of my mind once and for all. I have complete faith in the dogs, so if they have brought the dogs to the driveway to investigate then that is good enough for me.  I just didnt know it had really been investigated as yet and still havent seen anything to back that up.  did this really happen?

on that Digging for Madeleine facebook page , SB has photos which appear to show that the burial site (covered in bits of building debris) remains undisturbed over different periods of time until the time when the driveway is paved.

I try to disregard a lot of what comes out of Stephen Birch's mouth as far as his theories as to what happened, I think it certainly scares people away from listening to him. my curiousity and interest is solely based in the fact that he claims to have hard evidence something is buried there.  the rest, yeah, its cuckoo in my opinion.  but even if he is an eccentric with a bunch of conspiracy theories, if he has evidence something is buried there, it needs to be thoroughly investigated.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by Guest on 22.10.13 18:35

He doesn't have "hard" evidence. At best he has GPR pictures, which show that the ground there [if it/he was there] has been disturbed. Those pictures indicate a disturbance at 45-60 cm. That is shallow. No cadaver dog, earning his name, would have missed that even if there were a pile of rubbish on top. There are quite a couple of well documented cases, where those dogs smelled straight through meters of material, concrete and even decaying animal waist.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by notlongnow on 22.10.13 18:37

If it is a new drive the soil/rubble will be disturbed.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by Guest on 22.10.13 18:40

@notlongnow wrote:If it is a new drive the soil/rubble will be disturbed.
***
Of course. And may contain cavities from old [draining] pipes, whatever.
It's total BS to me, even without the "suggestion" that PJ would have taken DNA to frame the parents ...
For Pete's sake!

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Re: stephen birch

Post by StraightThinking on 22.10.13 21:05

Châtelaine wrote:
It's total BS to me, even without the "suggestion" that PJ would have taken DNA to frame the parents ...
On this excellent forum, and all its predecessors, we have seen suggestions that the mother and father of a young girl may have put her in a fridge, buried her in the beach, used another young kid as a decoy run to fake an abduction, accuse five members of a passing family of conspiring to give false witness reports, claim that photoshopped pictures were produced to timeshift events, there are accusations of malpractice and evidence manipulation from UK police forces and government involving masonic rituals and other secret links, theories about journalists and TV reporters covering up the truth

So why dismiss the idea that police may have planted evidence to obtain a confession?

It's been done before

If this case is going to be solved, every possibility must be looked at thoroughly and eliminated if necessary

That's how you get a watertight case that will win in court

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Re: stephen birch

Post by tigger on 22.10.13 21:23

Châtelaine wrote:He doesn't have "hard" evidence. At best he has GPR pictures, which show that the ground there [if it/he was there] has been disturbed. Those pictures indicate a disturbance at 45-60 cm. That is shallow. No cadaver dog, earning his name, would have missed that even if there were a pile of rubbish on top. There are quite a couple of well documented cases, where those dogs smelled straight through meters of material, concrete and even decaying animal waist.
The images  can be from just about anywhere. To believe they're from Murat's garden would mean also to believe that Birch took a machine the size of a small lawn mower through customs, managed to take it over the wall, unnoticed by Murat's dogs and did a survey in the dark. 
Then had these images viewed by six experts (in what he doesn't state) who are too shy to write and sign a report. 

I've been spotting more and more flying pigs in every topic so far.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by Beanie on 22.10.13 22:37

As far as I remember Roberts mother owned dogs. Therefore I would say if Madeleine was buried, and not deeply as is mentioned, under the drive I believe their own dogs would have dug the site up. Dogs will not give up on any scent.

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Re: stephen birch

Post by Guest on 22.10.13 22:39

@StraightThinking wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
It's total BS to me, even without the "suggestion" that PJ would have taken DNA to frame the parents ...
On this excellent forum, and all its predecessors, we have seen suggestions that the mother and father of a young girl may have put her in a fridge, buried her in the beach, used another young kid as a decoy run to fake an abduction, accuse five members of a passing family of conspiring to give false witness reports, claim that photoshopped pictures were produced to timeshift events, there are accusations of malpractice and evidence manipulation from UK police forces and government involving masonic rituals and other secret links, theories about journalists and TV reporters covering up the truth

So why dismiss the idea that police may have planted evidence to obtain a confession?

It's been done before

If this case is going to be solved, every possibility must be looked at thoroughly and eliminated if necessary

That's how you get a watertight case that will win in court
***
You're putting a lot on one big heap ...

I do agree, though, that it's essential not only to look at possibilities, but also to eliminate the impossible.
And that is, IMO, the wonders of internet fora yes  which is probably why I'm still here [and there] ...

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if anything

Post by dotdot on 23.10.13 15:55

i think, if anything, at least his very public pursuit of the dig (which is being covered heavily), (not in UK though!), if anything, at least it is introduces the idea to the public the possibility that Madeleine is really dead, rather than 'abducted'.  It appears that he is rapidly garnering a lot of support (that 'Digging for Madeleine' facebook page has gained 1000 more followers in the last 24h alone! ))  -- hopefully will reach far and wide it will pique people's curiousities in order that they end up reading deeper into the case , deeper than what is spoon-fed in the media.  in fact, that is exactly what made me find this place (and subsequently, the truth, (in my opinion), that Madeleine was not abducted.  It introduced the idea to me that perhaps she wasnt missing and made me read up on the whole thing. 

so, even if he is full of baloney, i think there is still a positive side to it . 

and i hope they just dig !!  why not?!  only take a few hours.... and just to rule it out completely...  

anyway....  all my opinion and thoughts...

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Re: stephen birch

Post by plebgate on 23.10.13 17:18

With the police investigation ongoing, would they be allowed to dig now?

I know it's private land, but turning the event into a media circus when the police are investigating doesn't sound right especially as it is a little girl's remains he says he can find.

I hope he is not allowed to do it, if it is to be done it should be done by the police with a tent put up and media not allowed within a mile radius.

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