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The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by littlepixie on 06.09.13 21:25

I don't know anything about the Court side of things but I presume the secrecy is to protect the child and other family members. No family member will EVER admit they neglected a child. They either don't know or don't want to know what neglect/abuse is. They stay in denial.
I tried to help a mother years ago whose children were being taken. She had mental health issues.  She had a solicitor to fight her case. She wasn't alone.  She asked me to write letters in support of her which I did. She kept them clean and fed them and they seemed nice well adjusted girls.
Imagine my horror years later when she told me they had taken them because she was interfering with them! She had been in trouble for performing naked in her bedroom window, she had told me that she just happened to forget to shut the curtains but I found out later it wasn't like that at all.
You never know what is inflicted on little children behind closed doors.

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Don't confuse !

Post by PeterMac on 06.09.13 22:42

BACK ON TRACK
We are beginning to conflate and confuse mental HEALTH with Intellectual ABILITY

Confusing Illness with intellect

They are two totally different things and must never be confused.
Steven Fry, on his own admission, is mentally ill. He is also, according to him and some others, relatively intelligent.

The lad who mops out the car park near me, is charming, polite and working at the very edge of his capacity.
He is not mentally ILL. His condition is not susceptible to cure by chemical, electrical, or talking therapies.
He is perfectly mentally sound. He is just not intelligent - as the rest of the world measure these things.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by Guest on 06.09.13 23:01

Yes it is easy for the two to be confused.
 
I learned a lot about the difference some years ago as a visitor to a lady with learning difficulties who, in the absence of anywhere more suitable, was in a psychiatric ward.
 
She had been married to a man who was mentally ill (bipolar disorder) but had refused to seek help. Sadly he committed suicide and his wife, totally unable to cope, was detained under the Mental Health Act.

One day I was helping my friend to buy things in the hospital shop and the assistant told me how nice it was to see me looking after my mother so well. There were only three years between us so I like to think that I looked spectacularly young for my age! In truth my friend looked old because of what she was going through.
 
I used to chat to one other patient in particular; a very intelligent young woman who believed that everyone was trying to poison her.
 
As for the couple in the original post, it's not easy to comment without knowing more about their capabilities.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by whmon on 06.09.13 23:32

My problem is with people commenting on the rights of others when the commentator is not in the same position as those they are commenting on. I once told a good friend that I had won 'reader's letter' in a newspaper because I had objected to a racist article and my friend took me for a bone telling me I had no right to comment on racist issues because I was white and had no knowledge of racism. I did not understand this until years later when I lived overseas in a country where I was one of only half a dozen whites and was racially abused on a daily basis. She, as a black woman did not take me for task on this again after she knew I had experienced it for myself.

As a female in my 50s, I have experienced sexism throughout my life and fought against it. When women by law were first allowed in men only bars the reality was that women were still not allowed to enter. I entered, had my drink removed and still sat in my seat. I did not particularly want to go into those places but felt it needed to be done so that others could comfortably go there if they wished. It worked because I made a fuss. Yet my husband, who I love dearly had no idea what my point was because he had not experienced sexism himself.

Black, white, male, female, gay, transgender, disabled, autistic, whatever - we are all people and we should not impose our own boundaries on people with whom we have no idea of what life throws at them.

Also, believing that mentally impaired people - or any other groups of people for that matter should not be able to have sexual relationships smacks of Nazism to me.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by Guest on 06.09.13 23:55

I think, correct me if 'm wrong, that it's not being opposed to sexual relationships - to the contrary. Anybody should be able to live a fulfilled life. It is, IMO again, that when reproducing, their children would not be served with "bad" genes and - maybe - parents, who are not capable of properly taking care of them. It is a delicate issue and I'm walking on eggs while writing this ...

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by whmon on 06.09.13 23:56

@whmon wrote:My problem is with people commenting on the rights of others when the commentator is not in the same position as those they are commenting on. I once told a good friend that I had won 'reader's letter' in a newspaper because I had objected to a racist article and my friend took me for a bone telling me I had no right to comment on racist issues because I was white and had no knowledge of racism. I did not understand this until years later when I lived overseas in a country where I was one of only half a dozen whites and was racially abused on a daily basis. She, as a black woman did not take me for task on this again after she knew I had experienced it for myself.

As a female in my 50s, I have experienced sexism throughout my life and fought against it. When women by law were first allowed in men only bars the reality was that women were still not allowed to enter. I entered, had my drink removed and still sat in my seat. I did not particularly want to go into those places but felt it needed to be done so that others could comfortably go there if they wished. It worked because I made a fuss. Yet my husband, who I love dearly had no idea what my point was because he had not experienced sexism himself.

Black, white, male, female, gay, transgender, disabled, autistic, whatever - we are all people and we should not impose our own boundaries on people with whom we have no idea of what life throws at them.

Also, believing that mentally impaired people - or any other groups of people for that matter should not be able to have sexual relationships smacks of Nazism to me.
And another thing while I am on my high horse - Bull breeds! I am a middle aged, highly educated woman who is a local employer and who rescues bull breeds. If I hear one more comment that bull breed owners are thick, chav thugs I am going to go into meltdown.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by aquila on 07.09.13 0:31

The article says that the baby was only 6 hours old. The video shows the child being taken by Social Services from the family home. I don't understand why this mother had her baby at home, especially if she were on Social Services' radar. She couldn't have had the baby in a hospital, arrived home and within six hours of giving birth Social Services and the police bang on her door to take the baby into care.

It doesn't make sense to me.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by Penfold on 07.09.13 0:50

@whmon wrote:My problem is with people commenting on the rights of others when the commentator is not in the same position as those they are commenting on. I once told a good friend that I had won 'reader's letter' in a newspaper because I had objected to a racist article and my friend took me for a bone telling me I had no right to comment on racist issues because I was white and had no knowledge of racism. I did not understand this until years later when I lived overseas in a country where I was one of only half a dozen whites and was racially abused on a daily basis. She, as a black woman did not take me for task on this again after she knew I had experienced it for myself.

As a female in my 50s, I have experienced sexism throughout my life and fought against it. When women by law were first allowed in men only bars the reality was that women were still not allowed to enter. I entered, had my drink removed and still sat in my seat. I did not particularly want to go into those places but felt it needed to be done so that others could comfortably go there if they wished. It worked because I made a fuss. Yet my husband, who I love dearly had no idea what my point was because he had not experienced sexism himself.

Black, white, male, female, gay, transgender, disabled, autistic, whatever - we are all people and we should not impose our own boundaries on people with whom we have no idea of what life throws at them.

Also, believing that mentally impaired people - or any other groups of people for that matter should not be able to have sexual relationships smacks of Nazism to me.
...which is exactly the opinion I was expressing in my much earlier post.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 07.09.13 6:39

@Penfold wrote:
@whmon wrote:My problem is with people commenting on the rights of others when the commentator is not in the same position as those they are commenting on. I once told a good friend that I had won 'reader's letter' in a newspaper because I had objected to a racist article and my friend took me for a bone telling me I had no right to comment on racist issues because I was white and had no knowledge of racism. I did not understand this until years later when I lived overseas in a country where I was one of only half a dozen whites and was racially abused on a daily basis. She, as a black woman did not take me for task on this again after she knew I had experienced it for myself.

As a female in my 50s, I have experienced sexism throughout my life and fought against it. When women by law were first allowed in men only bars the reality was that women were still not allowed to enter. I entered, had my drink removed and still sat in my seat. I did not particularly want to go into those places but felt it needed to be done so that others could comfortably go there if they wished. It worked because I made a fuss. Yet my husband, who I love dearly had no idea what my point was because he had not experienced sexism himself.

Black, white, male, female, gay, transgender, disabled, autistic, whatever - we are all people and we should not impose our own boundaries on people with whom we have no idea of what life throws at them.

Also, believing that mentally impaired people - or any other groups of people for that matter should not be able to have sexual relationships smacks of Nazism to me.
...which is exactly the opinion I was expressing in my much earlier post.
I fully expected that my comments would cause some controversy, and I welcome it in a discussion. However, I would still like to hear an opinion as to whether somebody with a definite lack of mental capacity, i.e. mental capabilities of a child can be compared to a physically mature under age person, i.e. 14 who wishes to have sex.

I don't know the particulars of the lady in this case, but this is not the first time such an issue has arisen in the press. 

I would just like to clarify, my point is not because I believe people with physical or psychiatric different should not be honoured as full and valued members of society. But I do believe they need protection and nurturing in line with who they are and the circumstances they are in. I don't see, from the little info in this case that this woman is in a safe situation on a daily basis. It would seem to me she is in danger, and that is tragic.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by tigger on 07.09.13 7:29

@aquila wrote:The article says that the baby was only 6 hours old. The video shows the child being taken by Social Services from the family home. I don't understand why this mother had her baby at home, especially if she were on Social Services' radar. She couldn't have had the baby in a hospital, arrived home and within six hours of giving birth Social Services and the police bang on her door to take the baby into care.

It doesn't make sense to me.
This whole discussion appears to be about the parents, not about the baby.
Questions: how did a 6 hour old baby come to be there?  Why is this video billed as one you were not allowed to see? So how come we're looking at it  now? The judge had no problem with it and that is all that matters.

The webcam was rigged in advance and so both parents knew they were being recorded. It follows that their reactions may not be as spontaneous as we are led to believe.

As for anyone whatever their mental or physical incapacity having the right to have children - I'm afraid I don't agree. For a start it's not fair on the child. Imo they can have sex as much as they like but children born to those incapable of rearing them  are at a disadvantage which may continue all their lives.

What about the people who have a fatal genetic flaw, yet are 'normal'  people? I have friends who chose not to have children for such a reason, they are highly qualified -a doctor and a historian. Instead they interact with children in sport clubs and help disadvantaged ones.


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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by PeterMac on 07.09.13 8:27

It is interesting how this discussion is struggling with the two concepts.
A 15 year old with the mind and body of an 18 year old -
- v -
an 18 year old with the mind of a 4 year old.

Are we saying that it is the chronological age of the body which is the defining factor.
Or does "informed consent" mean anything ?

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 07.09.13 8:41

@PeterMac wrote:It is interesting how this discussion is struggling with the two concepts.
A 15 year old with the mind and body of an 18 year old -
- v -
an 18 year old with the mind of a 4 year old.

Are we saying that it is the chronological age of the body which is the defining factor.
Or does "informed consent" mean anything ?
This is what I'm trying to drive at in this issue. 

I am genuinely struggling to reconcile here, this issue. We have ages of consent to protect individuals for a whole raft of reasons. To my mind, the issue of mental capacity is central to the debate of when and if a society should step in for reasons of protecting an individual from harm.

Jeremy Forrest is currently languishing in jail while his VERY WILLING 15 yr old "girlfriend" is weeping into her One Direction pillow at night over the injustice of it all. The Courts threw the flu weight of the Law at Mr FOrrest.

Yet on the other side of the coin, here we appear to have a couple where the husband is a carer due to lack of mental capacity, who has repeatedly impregnated his wife, in the full knowledge that social services will not let her keep her baby, presumably because the child would not have any chance of a sensible life regardless of how much love the mother will give it, thus not only WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY causing the physical strain of pregnancy onto his wife, but also being complicit in her devastation at losing the babies to SS. Has he even got any mental capacity if this is the choice he is making, for someone he presumably loves?

In allowing this situation to continue, this poor woman is being failed and dare I say it abused by everyone.

ETA: This is simply not a case of whether someone with a mental capacity should be having a sexual relationship, it has much deeper far reaching implications. So far there are 4 or 5 children who will now grow up without their birth parents, and although they might have a loving and opportunity filled life, it is well documented how many adopted people have emotional issues throughout their lives and a sense of incompleteness. You also have grandparents who will never get the opportunity to know these children. You also have the wider implications of cost and resources for extended periods of time in such cases, and you also have the agencies involved, often having to make decisions they would rather not have to, and it would be naive to think that those involved in the decision making process do not have compassion, a conscience and possible fears and regrets that these things bring.

It's about looking at the whole picture of cause and effect, and the outward flow of very serious issues and problems for a great many individuals. And for what? Sex isn't just about whether someone has the right or not to enjoy themselves, it's not compulsory. But in stripping away common sense for the sake of quasi non-judgmentalism a great many lives are being irreparably damaged. 

It would be lovely to live in a world where everything was perfect and fair, but the reality of it is there are thousands of people employed and billions spent mopping up the mess made by the consequences of poor decisions and inappropriate behaviours.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by uppatoffee on 07.09.13 9:05

Upon her midwife/GP booking appointment when she realised she was pregnant she would have been referred to Social Services for a prebirth assessment. SS would have undertaken a detailed assessment looking at the history of involvement with the family, agency checks to determine current level of involvement with the family from the different organisations involved. A decision would have been made before the birth that removal would happen at birth. However sometimes, if the baby is early or it is unclear where the birth has taken place, then it is not always possible for that to happen immediately. 

If there is a chance that the mother/couple do have the capacity to look after the child then a foster placement may be arranged to allow them to demonstrate this through supervised contact, or perhaps a supervised placement, such as in the Irish example.

I agree with smokeandmirrors. The boyfriend knew what was going to happen yet chose to get her pregnant. So his capacity for care is questionable.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by Woofer on 07.09.13 9:07

How social services got involved in the first place - seems to be because of a change of social worker. Anyway - father`s side of things here :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N56Iug14GGU

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by Guest on 07.09.13 9:16

I'll watch this later and will try not to be influenced that Brian Gerrish (the interviewer) remains one of Anne Greig's supporters!

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by Woofer on 07.09.13 9:31

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I'll watch this later and will try not to be influenced that Brian Gerrish (the interviewer) remains one of Anne Greig's supporters!
Brian`s ok - maybe not always totally discerning tho` - he`s done some good works.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by jozi on 07.09.13 9:42

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:It is interesting how this discussion is struggling with the two concepts.
A 15 year old with the mind and body of an 18 year old -
- v -
an 18 year old with the mind of a 4 year old.

Are we saying that it is the chronological age of the body which is the defining factor.
Or does "informed consent" mean anything ?
This is what I'm trying to drive at in this issue. 

I am genuinely struggling to reconcile here, this issue. We have ages of consent to protect individuals for a whole raft of reasons. To my mind, the issue of mental capacity is central to the debate of when and if a society should step in for reasons of protecting an individual from harm.

Jeremy Forrest is currently languishing in jail while his VERY WILLING 15 yr old "girlfriend" is weeping into her One Direction pillow at night over the injustice of it all. The Courts threw the flu weight of the Law at Mr FOrrest.

Yet on the other side of the coin, here we appear to have a couple where the husband is a carer due to lack of mental capacity, who has repeatedly impregnated his wife, in the full knowledge that social services will not let her keep her baby, presumably because the child would not have any chance of a sensible life regardless of how much love the mother will give it, thus not only WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY causing the physical strain of pregnancy onto his wife, but also being complicit in her devastation at losing the babies to SS. Has he even got any mental capacity if this is the choice he is making, for someone he presumably loves?

In allowing this situation to continue, this poor woman is being failed and dare I say it abused by everyone.

ETA: This is simply not a case of whether someone with a mental capacity should be having a sexual relationship, it has much deeper far reaching implications. So far there are 4 or 5 children who will now grow up without their birth parents, and although they might have a loving and opportunity filled life, it is well documented how many adopted people have emotional issues throughout their lives and a sense of incompleteness. You also have grandparents who will never get the opportunity to know these children. You also have the wider implications of cost and resources for extended periods of time in such cases, and you also have the agencies involved, often having to make decisions they would rather not have to, and it would be naive to think that those involved in the decision making process do not have compassion, a conscience and possible fears and regrets that these things bring.

It's about looking at the whole picture of cause and effect, and the outward flow of very serious issues and problems for a great many individuals. And for what? Sex isn't just about whether someone has the right or not to enjoy themselves, it's not compulsory. But in stripping away common sense for the sake of quasi non-judgmentalism a great many lives are being irreparably damaged. 

It would be lovely to live in a world where everything was perfect and fair, but the reality of it is there are thousands of people employed and billions spent mopping up the mess made by the consequences of poor decisions and inappropriate behaviours.
Excellent post S&M

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by aquila on 07.09.13 9:45

@Woofer wrote:How social services got involved in the first place - seems to be because of a change of social worker. Anyway - father`s side of things here :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N56Iug14GGU
I am listening to this video right now but what I am struggling to understand in this particular case is why a man, married to a woman with learning difficulties he 'rescued' from a care institution as a friend, has become her carer, doesn't work, has no means to financially support himself, his wife or a child other than state help I should think and yet he still chooses to have two more children after the first was removed and taken into care. I'm really struggling with the personal responsibility of a husband and father in this.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by aquila on 07.09.13 9:54

I'm adding to my previous post as I am much further into the video now and I have lost all patience with this man. He his spouting human rights and talking of breast feeding and his wife's discomfort at having milk. He seems to know an awful lot about the law and bleets on about anything other than his personal responsibility.

My patience has come to an end in this case.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by Guest on 07.09.13 9:56

I admit I haven't seen the video yet but this does seem to be a case of someone who knows all about his rights but nothing about his responsibilities.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by Woofer on 07.09.13 10:13

Yes, he does come across as being a saviour/victim mentality, trying to do the right thing, saving someone from a bad situation, falling in love, getting married to her and starting a family - nothing seemingly wrong in that apart from where`s the sense of responsibility in providing for them?  What I can`t understand is social services initial decision to take action when their eldest was 7 - seems there was a change of social worker who raised concerns - just wondering what those concerns were - we don`t know the whole story.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by lj on 07.09.13 10:14

@whmon wrote:
@whmon wrote:My problem is with people commenting on the rights of others when the commentator is not in the same position as those they are commenting on. I once told a good friend that I had won 'reader's letter' in a newspaper because I had objected to a racist article and my friend took me for a bone telling me I had no right to comment on racist issues because I was white and had no knowledge of racism. I did not understand this until years later when I lived overseas in a country where I was one of only half a dozen whites and was racially abused on a daily basis. She, as a black woman did not take me for task on this again after she knew I had experienced it for myself.

As a female in my 50s, I have experienced sexism throughout my life and fought against it. When women by law were first allowed in men only bars the reality was that women were still not allowed to enter. I entered, had my drink removed and still sat in my seat. I did not particularly want to go into those places but felt it needed to be done so that others could comfortably go there if they wished. It worked because I made a fuss. Yet my husband, who I love dearly had no idea what my point was because he had not experienced sexism himself.

Black, white, male, female, gay, transgender, disabled, autistic, whatever - we are all people and we should not impose our own boundaries on people with whom we have no idea of what life throws at them.

Also, believing that mentally impaired people - or any other groups of people for that matter should not be able to have sexual relationships smacks of Nazism to me.
And another thing while I am on my high horse - Bull breeds! I am a middle aged, highly educated woman who is a local employer and who rescues bull breeds. If I hear one more comment that bull breed owners are thick, chav thugs I am going to go into meltdown.
Yeah!!!! roses  airkiss , not only from me, but also from my 3 rescued pitbulls, and the 3 rescued other mutts.

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by PeterMac on 07.09.13 10:21

"a man, married to a woman with learning difficulties he 'rescued' from a care institution as a friend, has become her carer, doesn't work, has no means to financially support himself, his wife or a child other than state help I should think and yet he still chooses to have two more children after the first was removed and taken into care. I'm really struggling with the personal responsibility of a husband and father in this."

Why was this not seen as a case of grooming ?
If we considered her mental age we might think so.

Is he in fact a very twisted pervert ?

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by littlepixie on 07.09.13 15:04

" Sex isn't just about whether someone has the right or not to enjoy themselves, it's not compulsory."


Going O/T But Amen to this. Society today thinks we are all like animals with no self-control. They inflict that thought on everyone making them feel as if there is something wrong with them if they are not hampering after sex all the time.


I was flabbergasted to hear that a social worker had paid for a young person to have sex with a prostitute so he would "know the difference between a girl and a woman" This young person had committed offences against children, being little more than a child themselves. The authorities answer wasn't to teach him self-control and self-discipline, it was to show him a naked woman & let him have sex with her!!

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Re: The video judges tried to block: Father secretly records harrowing moment six-hour-old baby is taken away by social services

Post by aiyoyo on 07.09.13 15:36

@PeterMac wrote:"a man, married to a woman with learning difficulties he 'rescued' from a care institution as a friend, has become her carer, doesn't work, has no means to financially support himself, his wife or a child other than state help I should think and yet he still chooses to have two more children after the first was removed and taken into care. I'm really struggling with the personal responsibility of a husband and father in this."

Why was this not seen as a case of grooming ?
If we considered her mental age we might think so.

Is he in fact a very twisted pervert ?
Sadly, there's quite a fair nr. of that kind in UK, setting themselves up with handicap so that they can claim carer's allowance, then have children to get more benefits. It's never about responsibility of a man or father but how to milk the system using a self create situation.

Not sure this should be termed *grooming* or exploiting.

aiyoyo

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