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Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

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Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by russiandoll on 05.09.13 22:52

With thanks to Johanna,  great insights as always   :




The last time...

4078 "When did you last see Madeleine?”

Reply (Matthew Oldfield) "Err I’m not quite sure when I last saw her because it depending on whether we had lunch together as a group in David and Fiona’s, which err we may have done on the last day because it got more common as we went through the week but it was more common for the six in terms of the, David, Fiona, already in the apartment of course with Dianne and err Russ and Jane and G***e and Rachael and I to go up there and have lunch as a group than it was to have err the full complete group there at lunch time. Err but it would seem now, it probably wasn’t until the day previously because we’d seen them in the evening after their usual tea so I think on that day, on the final, on the Thursday when we came back up from tennis I’m not sure that Kate and the children err were there outside the tennis court when we arrived because we arrived late and it would have been about bedtime so I can’t specifically recall whether I saw Madeleine at that point, but we sort of arrived, err it wasn’t sort of big groups who were doing the usual sort of chasing games, they may have gone earlier because everybody else of course was still down with our wives, down in the err down at the restaurant on the beach so it would have been quite sort of the same sort of playgroup and they may have, I think they went back and they were gone by the time I got to the tennis courts.”
To be honest I have read it over and over again until I found this to be the essence of his waffling: "Err but it would seem now, it probably wasn’t until the day previously..." He wasn't sure if he saw her at lunchtime 3rd, which he didn't and he wasn't sure if he saw her at playtime 3rd, which he didn't so the last time he saw her was the day previously at playtime.


1578    “When was the last time you saw Madeleine”?

Reply (Russell O'Brien)  “Erm I certainly think I saw her at lunch time on the Thursday, erm when, when sort of Ella, when Ella and her would have come out the, the, the, the, the kids club, as I said earlier on, on, on Thursday afternoon, we did something slightly different and we were all down at, down at the beach front and were gonna eat there, my gut feeling is because I got there to pick Ella up before all of the children from the kids club were taken up to the, the Tapas that I did see Madeleine there, I have to say eleven months on, I, I can’t tell you that I had a picture of her definitely there, but unless Kate and Gerry picked her up separately, she, she would have been there and somewhere in the back of my mind I, I’ve got this picture of me taking Ella out and all the other children, including Madeleine were there but it’s too long after to, to, to really be honest on that and sort of say yes I definitely saw her, cos I, I don’t know I can now”.
Thursday lunchtime he, his wife, Matt and Rachael were having lunch in their apartment with their kids. Fiona allegedly accompanied Kate to the kids club to take their daughters out, not Jane or Russell. And he did not see Madeleine at the creche because in his heavily redacted statement he said: ", I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not". Ergo the last time he really saw her was the day previously at playtime.



1578    “When was the last time you saw Madeleine”?

Reply (Rachael Oldfield)   “Erm it was when she was having a tennis lesson, in the morning yeah, about probably between ten thirty and eleven on the morning of the third of May”.
 
Madeleine did not have a tennis lesson in the morning of the 3rd although everybody was allegedly watching intently the group of strange children, while their own were taking a sailing trip at the beach. So the last time she saw Madeleine must have been the day previously at playtime.



Reply (David Payne)  ”Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I said well crikey it’s early, early for them to be getting ready you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I’ve had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry’s just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn’t, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there’s, there’s you know nothing that normally…”

1485    ”Yeah. Was that the last time you saw Madeleine?”

Reply (David Payne)  ”It was.” 
Taking into account that it was Gerry and not David who mentioned this alleged checking of Kate and the kids for the first time during a certainly stressful interview by the PJ and taking also into account that David's and Fiona's versions changed and differed in important points, I assume that this is not a truthful statement and the chances are pretty high that he saw Madeleine for the last time the day previously at playtime.



1485    “When was the last time you saw Madeleine?”
Reply (Fiona Payne) “It was, it would be when we walked back with, erm, Scarlet and Kate from the, from picking them at the kids club in the af.., in the lunch time, that was the last time I saw them”. 
1485    “At lunch time?”
Reply    “Yeah”.
Was it the af....ternoon pickup or was it the lunch time pickup? And who is "them"? Can't refute it but don't believe a word...



Reply (Jane Tanner)  “Erm, and I think we played ‘til about, phew, half two, because I think, I’m not sure if this is going to be another question that you are going to ask, but I think that was the last time that I saw Madeleine, because Kate and Gerry brought the kids, all the kids down to the play area to, they would have their lunch before they took them back to the Kids Club, and I think that was about two, quarter past two’ish, and I can remember Madeleine shouting things to us on the tennis court, you know, and I can remember Gerry sort of going ‘Oh good shot’ or whatever.  And I think that would have been the last time that I personally, you know, I personally saw Madeleine. 

4078    “And the last time you saw Madeleine was on the afternoon you (inaudible)”?
Reply    “Yeah we were playing tennis yeah”.
So Jane saw her but Rachael didn't? Even though Madeleine was shouting things to them on the court? Doubt it very much.



4078    “When was the last time you saw Madeleine?”
Reply (Dianne Webster)   “(Sighs) You see I don’t remember seeing her on the Thursday because I didn’t go to the high tea, err but I was apparently in the play area afterwards but I can’t recall that.”
4078    “Okay.”
Reply    “Err so from what I can recall, the last time I would have seen Madeleine would have been the Wednesday at the high tea probably.”
 
 
One person really telling it how it was, almost straight forward. Wednesday was the last time Madeleine was seen, at the high tea or rather in the playground afterwards.

But why all this deflection? Why didn't they all say straight away that this was the last time they saw her? Because this would have alerted the PJ immediately. And to further support the alleged fact that she was alive and well plenty of aditional information was fed to the investigation afterwards, like the last photo, the check by David Payne during dinner on May 2nd, the story about Maddie's complaint being told on the morning of the 3rd, the story about her crying on the boat. 


    



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"If it won't we'll force it" Unterdenteppichgekehrt

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by whmon on 05.09.13 23:10

4078 "When did you last see Madeleine?”

Reply (Matthew Oldfield) "Err I’m not quite sure when I last saw her because it depending on whether we had lunch together as a group in David and Fiona’s, which err we may have done on the last day because it got more common as we went through the week but it was more common for the six in terms of the, David, Fiona, already in the apartment of course with Dianne and err Russ and Jane and G***e and Rachael and I to go up there and have lunch as a group than it was to have err the full complete group there at lunch time. Err but it would seem now, it probably wasn’t until the day previously because we’d seen them in the evening after their usual tea so I think on that day, on the final, on the Thursday when we came back up from tennis I’m not sure that Kate and the children err were there outside the tennis court when we arrived because we arrived late and it would have been about bedtime so I can’t specifically recall whether I saw Madeleine at that point, but we sort of arrived, err it wasn’t sort of big groups who were doing the usual sort of chasing games, they may have gone earlier because everybody else of course was still down with our wives, down in the err down at the restaurant on the beach so it would have been quite sort of the same sort of playgroup and they may have, I think they went back and they were gone by the time I got to the tennis courts.”

 
Err, yer but no but, yer but no but...

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by tigger on 06.09.13 6:45

It doesn't follow that because they are clearly unwilling to say they saw her on Thursday that therefore the last time they saw her must have been the Wednesday.

Diane Webster is particular in saying she probably saw her on Wednesday.  

It's also nonsense to claim it's hard to remember as it's such a long time ago when they must have been asked these questions by the PJ.  A fact like that isn't' going to slip your mind.

Ideally they should all have seen her at tea time and DP was recruited to fill the gap up tp 8.30.

When such an event happens you immediately recall when you last saw the child imo and having made statements to the police, a non-routine event, you'd have no trouble recalling  it a year later.
Unless your later statement is at variance with the earlier one. That's how it sounds to me. They're trying to leave it open, so that both statements - a year apart - do not contradict each other.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by marconi on 06.09.13 8:40

To my feeling, September is going backwards and July and August were too.

Everything is going very slowly.

Every day checking on internet and things don't change. 

How long is it still going to take before we hear of arrests?

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by PeterMac on 06.09.13 11:41

@tigger wrote:
Ideally they should all have seen her at tea time and DP was recruited to fill the gap up tp 8.30.
Quite so.
But in the book Kate goes on, and on, and on, about why there was no one else around when they had tea.  Not simply "we had tea together". No, a detailed description of how everyone else was at the Paraiso and she jogged past and they saw her and called out and .. and . . and . .  
Establishing beyond a reasonable doubt that no one else can give evidence of Madeleine's continued existence.
Can't ask the twins.
Therefore you must rely on the uncorroborated evidence of the parents.
There is no one else.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by gbwales on 07.09.13 13:17


 
Err, yer but no but, yer but no but...
Quite!
And that goes for pretty much all of them. Never seen such a garbled mess of inarticulate drivel as all those statements.
Often wonder whether it's deliberate to sow confusion everywhere, or just what happens when you weave a tangled web.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by Seek truth on 07.09.13 13:28

@gbwales wrote:

 
Err, yer but no but, yer but no but...
Quite!
And that goes for pretty much all of them. Never seen such a garbled mess of inarticulate drivel as all those statements.
Often wonder whether it's deliberate to sow confusion everywhere, or just what happens when you weave a tangled web.
Of course thats why their statements, deliberately do not make sense.

In Their interviews, they also avoid answering.

I think Vicky looks more innocent than them!

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by aiyoyo on 07.09.13 15:23

@PeterMac wrote:
@tigger wrote:
Ideally they should all have seen her at tea time and DP was recruited to fill the gap up tp 8.30.
Quite so.
But in the book Kate goes on, and on, and on, about why there was no one else around when they had tea.  Not simply "we had tea together". No, a detailed description of how everyone else was at the Paraiso and she jogged past and they saw her and called out and .. and . . and . .  
Establishing beyond a reasonable doubt that no one else can give evidence of Madeleine's continued existence.
Can't ask the twins.
Therefore you must rely on the uncorroborated evidence of the parents.
There is no one else.
Ideally all the children should have had their tea at the Tapas Bar on the 3rd (as they always did priorly), then there would be no contention of when Madeleine was last seen alive and well.  

It's patently obvious that the separate activities on the 3rd were premeditated so that the Group won't have to explain Madeleine absence at Tea, which they otherwise would have to, had they kept the usual tea venue for the children.
It would mean Madeleine already met her fate and the group knew exactly what happened and aided in the scene setting to cover up.  Else there is no possible reason for the group to suddenly not include the mccanns' children in the children group activities, without telling the Mccanns.   It was a set up they pre-agreed and they got all sides covered.  Kate's run  and long winded over emphasis and over lamenting of being left out etc etc  and Payne's visit were all to show she was not alone with Madeleine for long spell.

It is my belief that Payne's visit was scripted in as of part of the charade but not physically carried out, ditto Matthew subsequent check,hence their hugh discrepancies  in recounting of the details.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by plebgate on 07.09.13 16:04

They did not reckon on a world full of armchair detectives willing to wade through the errs, umms and the unfinished sentences.    What a surprise it must have been when the transcripts of the interviews were made public.   What a surpise.

Edited to change wording lst sentence.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by Trainer on 07.09.13 17:27

Everyone else was at the Paraiso or to put another way,  every one else took their children to the only restaurant with CCTV so they had an alibi 

I think the garbled statements are all done on purpose to cover for the mccanns but not implicated themselves if it all goes wrong

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by Guest on 07.09.13 19:32

@Trainer wrote:Everyone else was at the Paraiso or to put another way,  every one else took their children to the only restaurant with CCTV so they had an alibi  [...]
***
Right.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by PeterMac on 07.09.13 19:38

And then she bangs on about it in the book, totally unnecessarily, since the evidence was available to any investigator.
But she cannot stop herself, and over-eggs the pudding.
As well as getting some of it totally wrong into the bargain (found them at tea / signed M out at 5:30) You choose.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by Woofer on 07.09.13 20:53

Yes, KM always over-eggs the pudding - I find that weird.  Its as if she`s explaining something to stupid people or embroidering a story for a child.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by Guest on 07.09.13 21:01

@Trainer wrote:Everyone else was at the Paraiso or to put another way,  every one else took their children to the only restaurant with CCTV so they had an alibi 

I think the garbled statements are all done on purpose to cover for the mccanns but not implicated themselves if it all goes wrong
When

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by aiyoyo on 08.09.13 7:21

@Trainer wrote:Everyone else was at the Paraiso or to put another way,  every one else took their children to the only restaurant with CCTV so they had an alibi 

I think the garbled statements are all done on purpose to cover for the mccanns but not implicated themselves if it all goes wrong
What was the reason for them to go outside of the resort to make sure they had alibi?
More pertinently, why did they need an alibi away from the Mccanns?
 For what eventuality were they anticipating? For the want to create an alibi would mean they must already knew they'll need it.
What possibly happened that precipitates a change of schedule on the 3rd.  Logic tells us whatever it was that happened must have must happened day before the 3rd.  That *something* (whatever it was) they knew breaks the law that would require the involvement of the Police, hence the anticipated inevitable eventuality.

Was Kate's jog (whether it actually took place or not) also to give herself and the group an alibi?
It's impossible for her to have been at the beach (and the Creche) at parallel time at 5.30pm.  
Why 5.30?  Was it pre-knowledge that the group had already gone to the beach?

According to Lobsters' Record for the 3rd, Elle O'Brien (only one in the same Creche as Madeleine) wasn't taken to the Creche in the afternoon. Where was she?






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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by russiandoll on 08.09.13 14:23

quote    "According to Lobsters' Record for the 3rd, Elle O'Brien (only one in the same Creche as Madeleine) wasn't taken to the Creche in the afternoon. Where was she?  "

 The record shows that Ella was at crèche for a couple of hours in the afternoon, corresponding with her parents' RI when it was stated that Russell picked her up at 4.30 so that she could spend some time at the beach with the others families and children [ McCanns excepted ].
 Remember Kate wondering if Maddie was ok seeing Ella being picked up by her father when she remained in crèche for another hour?

 Very odd , Ella the only  non- McCann child not taken straight to the beach with the other children and being in crèche for most of her afternoon. Her younger sister went to the beach at the start however.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by aiyoyo on 08.09.13 14:57



No wonder I missed it.  Cat Nanny signed her out -- so how strange.
If her parent came for her why did they not sign her out?
It raises the question under what circumstance did Cat Nanny end up having to sign her out?

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by Trainer on 08.09.13 15:09

So why did the mccanns not take the children to the beach with the rest of the group?
What were they doing ? All your mates off down the beach , they must have had a good reason not to do the same........... What do they tell us they were doing?

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by whmon on 08.09.13 16:21

@aiyoyo wrote:

No wonder I missed it.  Cat Nanny signed her out -- so how strange.
If her parent came for her why did they not sign her out?
It raises the question under what circumstance did Cat Nanny end up having to sign her out?
In my nursery, the parents sometimes forget to sign the register when they pick their children up and when this happens the staff sign the register for them. It happens quite a lot.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by russiandoll on 08.09.13 16:40

Imo late afternoon and early evening was when the prep for the cover up was taking place. Also see earlier crèche entries for Ella when her father forgets her name and the apartment they were staying in. See photo of JT with Ella, same age and fair like Maddie. Easily mistaken for M by people not familiar with her ?

Dianne Webster appears to be the only truthful person in that group and it was imperative that she was kept out of the way when certain things were going on 3rd May.

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Re: Unterdenteppichgekehrt. 5.9.2013.

Post by russiandoll on 08.09.13 17:47

Re -reading Dan Stuk statement and McCann and co. statements, I see no clear idea of Gerry's whereabouts for the 2 hours between 4 and 6 pm May 3rd.

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