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Snake deaths

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by Guest on 08.08.13 20:31

Peter, I've been a bit slow in commenting [4 weeks of visitors takes its toll. LOL] . But it seems we agree that they won't do anything unless they're hungry [or afraid].

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.08.13 20:34

@marconi wrote:
undefined wrote:Tony Bennett
Mr. Bennett, I didn't say what you wrote here.  And smell of food can remain long in the mouth, even after we brush our teeth.
But I didn't [word deleted] say it was the reason that the snake left the attack [sp].
I also believe in the scent of animals on the siblings' skin. And that it was an accident.
 Quote from marconi:

"Maybe the children ate meat that evening and they were breathing its scent too..."

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by Guest on 08.08.13 20:37

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@marconi wrote:
undefined wrote:Tony Bennett
Mr. Bennett, I didn't say what you wrote here.  And smell of food can remain long in the mouth, even after we brush our teeth.
But I didn't [word deleted] say it was the reason that the snake left the attack [sp].
I also believe in the scent of animals on the siblings' skin. And that it was an accident.
 Quote from marconi:

"Maybe the children ate meat that evening and they were breathing its scent too..."
***
Tony, with due respect and unless I misunderstood your comment: a snake will NOT attack unless it's hungry or in danger ...

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by Guest on 08.08.13 21:16

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/snake-escapes-pet-shop-strangles-two-boys-to-death/story-fndir2ev-1226691773995

It sounds like the ceiling collapsed Savoie says he thought they were sleeping until he saw the hole. Looking at the structure with a space between the roof and ceiling it wouldn't be designed to hold any weight. The snake would be startled and according to this piece both boys were sleeping on the floor. 

Surely there would have been a lot of noise, ceiling falls in and snake falls with a thud, why didn't it wake everyone including the boys, there would be debris and vibrations. Constrictors move slowly, surely enough time to raise an alarm. 

The press runs with the story, it makes headlines. But it doesn't sound convincing.

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by whmon on 09.08.13 0:18

Comments by a couple of experts:

Jay Brewer, who founded the Reptile Zoo in California and has worked with rock pythons, acknowledges that the rock python has an ornery disposition—”typically they lunge at you,” he says—but says he doesn’t believe the snake killed the Barth boys, an opinion echoed by ]several other snake experts.


“It doesn’t sound logical,” Brewer says. “It’s paranoid, so it will immediately go on the defensive, but it won’t wrap you up and kill you. They generally don’t want to constrict you. I would like to see absolute proof it was guilty. It just doesn’t jive. I don’t know how [the boys] wouldn’t have got up and run away. The dots don’t quite connect.”

“I’m totally skeptical,” Johan Marais, who runs the African Snakebite Institute in South Africa, told the National Post. “It just sounds very, very strange.” The snakes only eat a few times a year when in captivity, he added. “Snakes don’t kill for fun. It takes far too much energy.”

 “Snakes get a bad rap,” Brewer noted. “They get blamed for everything. The truth of the matter is a German shepherd is 100 times more likely to kill you.”

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by lj on 09.08.13 1:28

Oh God, now we are blaming dogs again. Are we to go down the list of breeds too? That shepherd thing is so past WW II

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by whmon on 09.08.13 1:32

@lj wrote:Oh God, now we are blaming dogs again. Are we to go down the list of breeds too? That shepherd thing is so past WW II
 I know ij! I get stupid comments all the time when I'm walking my rescue bull breeds. It really annoys me too.

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by Praiaaa on 09.08.13 8:53

@whmon wrote: I don’t know how [the boys] wouldn’t have got up and run away. The dots don’t quite connect.”

“”
indeed, or scream - at least one of them.

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by aiyoyo on 09.08.13 9:34

Mr Savoie described to Global News how he walked into the living room and found the two boys dead about 6.30am on Monday. He found the snake coiled nearby.
He said the snake had made its way upstairs into his apartment through ventilation ducts and then moved into the ceiling before dropping through a hole and attacking the sleeping boys


Read more: http://www.news.com.au/world-news/snake-escapes-pet-shop-strangles-two-boys-to-death/story-fndir2ev-1226691773995#ixzz2bSQ5UyAm
If Iunderstand this correctly the snake was in the living room (meaning ground floor) where the two boys were sleeping, made its way upstairs through ventilation ducts only to drop from a gaping hole in the ceiling. If the structure cannot support the weight of the snake then question has to be asked how it can support the other occupants in the upstairs apt ie owners and family.

It all depends whether the hole in the ceiling was an existing one and where exactly this hole was, or whether the ceiling collapsed under the weight of the snake. If the ceiling collapses it would leave plenty debris which should have woken up the household and the boys. The snake would have to have fallen from a hole directly above the boys to have landed on them.

If as the report says "that the owner found the two boys dead with the snake coiled nearby" how did the owner know the snake had made it way upstairs only to have fallen from a hole in the ceiling? Is it a case of - on seeing the hole in the ceiling he immediately knew the snake had fallen through it and thus the boys must have been killed from the landing snake.

Parallel to another case where the woman saw the open shutter/window and whooshing curtains and immediately concluded "they had taken her"?

An African Rock python (swarthy foreigner), a hole in the ceiling, two dead children and it's the snake's fault. Believable? Hmmmm......


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Re: Snake deaths

Post by russiandoll on 09.08.13 9:34

It would seem that this forum and people on twitter asking questions about this bizarre story owe an apology according to #McCann supporters. To whom people asking questions are meant to apologise is unclear.
  I do not see any offence caused  to anyone by not taking the tale as reported at face value. I would find it unusual if a person accepted it without asking a few questions.

 So here are my questions for which I make no apology.

1. Is it true as reported that the snake weighed 100 lb?
2. Was it housed securely?
3. Was it housed as reported in a vertical glass enclosure? If so, how did it move inside it?
4. Was its enclosure in the same area in which the 2 boys were sleeping?
5. If so, why were the boys sleeping in the same room as that used to house a huge snake?
6. Was the hole in the ceiling directly above the bed/mattress where the boys were asleep?
7. How plausible is it that the snake had enough of its weight in the exact position where damaging the ceiling enough to create a gap for it to fall through, so that it would fall directly on top of the boys, its weight preventing them from breathing?
8. Is it implausible that a snake could have constricted the boys while each had the entire length of his body, whether asleep on front/back/side firmly against a mattress /floor?
9. Has the autopsy on the snake shown any signs of hunger? Injury?
10. At what speed would a snake weighing 100 lb fall from ceiling height onto the floor of the room?
11.What injuries would it have suffered?
12. Would it have been in a state of fear?
13. What injuries would you expect to see on boys of that size, had a snake weighing 100lbs fallen on top of them?
13. If so, would it more likely lie still or constrict?
14. How would one man handle this snake and put it back in its enclosure, if it weighed 100lbs and was as described 15 feet long?

p.s. hope my change of avatar not a problem. I like to play on words and so have moved from being a "doll" [ glamorous woman] to a typical traditional wooden doll, then back again. 
 You know what they say, confusion is good !

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by russiandoll on 09.08.13 9:54

Updated late yesterday by CNN  :   [ BOLD MINE]


-- Noah and Connor Barthe, the two boys apparently killed by a 100-pound African rock python in Canada, died from asphyxiation, according to preliminary autopsy results.
"While we now have some preliminary information, investigators still have to wait for other test results to come back and for the final report," Sgt. Alain Tremblay of the New Brunswick Royal Canadian Mounted Police said Wednesday.
"We recognize that this has touched the hearts of people across the world and that people want to know how this could have happened. Our investigators are looking at all aspects of this tragic incident, and that will take some time," he said.










Noah, 4, and Connor, 6, were found dead Monday morning. Sometime before dawn, the snake came crashing through the ceiling of the apartment where they were spending the night.
The apartment was the home of Jean-Claude Savoie, a family friend whose Campbellton, New Brunswick pet store was downstairs. Tremblay said the python was kept upstairs in a custom-built glass enclosure similar to an aquarium.
The cage reached the ceiling, and the snake was somehow able to crawl through a vent into the building's ductwork. It was above the living room, where the boys were sleeping, when the ceiling fell in.
The snake was found in the same room as the boys, Tremblay said. He would provide no further details. He said the RCMP is conducting a criminal investigation but wouldn't discuss possible charges.
"Obviously, it's not a standard or regular case," he said. "It's very traumatic for the family that this happened. But for the police, this is an investigation where there's a loss of life, and our approach to analyze a scene is almost identical, although here we're dealing with a reptile."
Canadian broadcaster CBC reported that the python was between 11 and nearly 15 feet long and weighed more than 99 pounds.
It was euthanized. The necropsy showed the snake was in good overall health, Tremblay said.
Deaths caused by large constrictor snakes like pythons are fairly rare.
The Humane Society documents 17 people who have died in incidents in the United States related to the snakes since 1978, 12 of them since 1990.

CNN's Matt Smith, Jethro Mullen, Dana Ford and Kevin Conlon contributed to this report.

 NOTE : NOT  "GOOD OVERALL HEALTH APART FROM INJURIES SUSTAINED WHEN AT 100LBS AND FALLING FROM SOME HEIGHT AND AT SOME SPEED, IT INJURIED ITSELF " IT IS STATED THAT IT CAME CRASHING THROUGH THE CEILING.

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 09.08.13 9:56

@russiandoll wrote:It would seem that this forum and people on twitter asking questions about this bizarre story owe an apology according to #McCann supporters. To whom people asking questions are meant to apologise is unclear.
  I do not see any offence caused  to anyone by not taking the tale as reported at face value. I would find it unusual if a person accepted it without asking a few questions.

  
In a nutshell, people who accept without question are fearful of life itself, and therefore cannot look at it with intelligence for fear of what they might see.

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by aiyoyo on 09.08.13 9:56

@whmon wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Has it been clarified on which floor the boys were sleeping? Reports say that the snake was on the second floor, the North American meaning; the first floor by U K standards.

The boys were in the living room which I would have thought was unlikely to be on the ground floor with the shop (though it's possible of course) and, if it was on the upper level, how did the snake fall through the ceiling onto them?
 I believe the snake was in its floor to ceiling enclosure in the living room and got out via a ventilation shaft on the ceiling of its enclosure. It must have fallen through the ceiling back into the living room. The children as we know were asleep in the living room.

A very sad and tragic accident. Still - it would make a feasible plot for a crime movie: snake expert ensures that two children are covered in animal scent before putting them down to sleep by the ventilated enclosure of a large snake before going to bed and not hearing a ceiling falling in or children screaming.
It would make one hell of a movie too.
If the snake was attracted to any scent at all, be it scent of animal or meat the children ingested earlier, or come to think of it even the children are meat to the snake if it was really hungry and a gaping hole in its enclosure enables it to slither out ,you would think the snake would slither straight to its prey.

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.08.13 9:57

@russiandoll wrote:p.s. hope my change of avatar not a problem. I like to play on words and so have moved from being a "doll" [ glamorous woman] to a typical traditional wooden doll, then back again.  You know what they say, confusion is good !
The 'Russian Doll' avatar was clearly meant to symbolise a woman of depth, whom one could only really understand by taking apart the outer 'layer', so to speak, and then looking behind that to discover the 'real' russiandoll underneath the exterior appearance. But it seems that we are back to a traditional Russian woman of the steppes or the Siberian tundra (I can't really tell from the photo). The woman pictured seems to represent a traditional Russian woman (fur hat and top) but who has come fully into the modern age (networking on a mobile 'phone).

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.08.13 10:06

@russiandoll wrote:So here are my questions for which I make no apology.

1. Is it true as reported that the snake weighed 100 lb? That's jujst over 7 stone in English, or 45kg
2. Was it housed securely?
3. Was it housed as reported in a vertical glass enclosure? If so, how did it move inside it?
4. Was its enclosure in the same area in which the 2 boys were sleeping? One would sincerely hope not
5. If so, why were the boys sleeping in the same room as that used to house a huge snake? Surely not. The snake is said to have come through the roof/ceiling
6. Was the hole in the ceiling directly above the bed/mattress where the boys were asleep? More to the point, WHEN was the hole created, and by whom/what?
7. How plausible is it that the snake had enough of its weight in the exact position where damaging the ceiling enough to create a gap for it to fall through, so that it would fall directly on top of the boys, its weight preventing them from breathing? None whatsoever
8. Is it implausible that a snake could have constricted the boys while each had the entire length of his body, whether asleep on front/back/side firmly against a mattress /floor?
9. Has the autopsy on the snake shown any signs of hunger? Injury?
10. At what speed would a snake weighing 100 lb fall from ceiling height onto the floor of the room? Objects fall at 32 feet per second - but of course a long snake couldn't exactly 'fall' all at one go
11.What injuries would it have suffered?
12. Would it have been in a state of fear?
13. What injuries would you expect to see on boys of that size, had a snake weighing 100lbs fallen on top of them?
13. If so, would it more likely lie still or constrict?
14. How would one man handle this snake and put it back in its enclosure, if it weighed 100lbs and was as described 15 feet long? Very carefully

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by russiandoll on 09.08.13 10:14

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:p.s. hope my change of avatar not a problem. I like to play on words and so have moved from being a "doll" [ glamorous woman] to a typical traditional wooden doll, then back again.  You know what they say, confusion is good !
The 'Russian Doll' avatar was clearly meant to symbolise a woman of depth, whom one could only really understand by taking apart the outer 'layer', so to speak, and then looking behind that to discover the 'real' russiandoll underneath the exterior appearance. But it seems that we are back to a traditional Russian woman of the steppes or the Siberian tundra (I can't really tell from the photo). The woman pictured seems to represent a traditional Russian woman (fur hat and top) but who has come fully into the modern age (networking on a mobile 'phone).
    
  Tony.....in answer to my question you replied :

 If so, why were the boys sleeping in the same room as that used to house a huge snake? Surely not. The snake is said to have come through the roof/ceiling

BUT THE REPORTS I READ YESTERDAY STATED THAT THE SNAKE GOT UP TO CEILING HEIGHT VIA ITS ENCLOSURE, MOVED UPWARDS, GOT THROUGH A GAP INTO VENTILATION SYSTEM AND THEN INTO CEILING SPACE, SO I READ THAT AS MEANING IT WAS ON SAME FLOOR AS SLEEPING BOYS, I AM SURE I READ THAT THEY WERE SLEEPING IN THE LIVING AREA AND THAT IS WHERE SNAKE WAS HOUSED.
I FIND A FLOOR TO CEILING GLASS HOUSING INTRUIGING. HOW DID THE SNAKE MOVE FROM FLOOR LEVEL TO CEILING LEVEL?



 I called myself Russiandoll when I joined because of the nature of the case, similar to peeling an onion, multi-layered and the more you take it apart the more complex it seems.
 I also speak some Russian,[ love the language, the literature, the MUSIC  [ hate the politics and corruption].
 And as a linguist I love words, hence the move between doll and " doll"


 I am trying to remember which American actor called an attractive woman " dollface" in a film. I find it very sexist, but memorable!
 Was it Bogart? Cagney? I remember in one movie Cagney got half a grapefruit in his face, but I think he had said something more offensive to a woman then dollface!
 As long as the changing avatars do not inconvenience admin....


p.s. am sorry the photos were posted on the CNN news report I copied over, I thought I had successfully deleted them. If admin can do so, please do, the snake photo will be repellent to some members ]

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by aiyoyo on 09.08.13 11:59

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:So here are my questions for which I make no apology.

1. Is it true as reported that the snake weighed 100 lb? That's jujst over 7 stone in English, or 45kg
2. Was it housed securely?
3. Was it housed as reported in a vertical glass enclosure? If so, how did it move inside it?
4. Was its enclosure in the same area in which the 2 boys were sleeping? One would sincerely hope not
5. If so, why were the boys sleeping in the same room as that used to house a huge snake? Surely not. The snake is said to have come through the roof/ceiling
Mr Savoie described to Global News how he walked into the living room and found the two boys dead about 6.30am on Monday. He found the snake coiled nearby.
He said the snake had made its way upstairs into his apartment through ventilation ducts and then moved into the ceiling before dropping through a hole and attacking the sleeping boys


Read more: http://www.news.com.au/world-news/snake-escapes-pet-shop-strangles-two-boys-to-death/story-fndir2ev-1226691773995#ixzz2bSQ5UyAm2
According to this report, the snake was not upstairs to start with.  It was downstair (presumably living room) with the children since the house is only two levels.I am sure attacking isn't exactly correct description since the snake was supposed to have inadvertently fallen onto the boys.


6. Was the hole in the ceiling directly above the bed/mattress where the boys were asleep? More to the point, WHEN was the hole created, and by whom/what?  

7. How plausible is it that the snake had enough of its weight in the exact position where damaging the ceiling enough to create a gap for it to fall through, so that it would fall directly on top of the boys, its weight preventing them from breathing? None whatsoever
8. Is it implausible that a snake could have constricted the boys while each had the entire length of his body, whether asleep on front/back/side firmly against a mattress /floor?
9. Has the autopsy on the snake shown any signs of hunger? Injury?
10. At what speed would a snake weighing 100 lb fall from ceiling height onto the floor of the room? Objects fall at 32 feet per second - but of course a long snake couldn't exactly 'fall' all at one go
11.What injuries would it have suffered?
12. Would it have been in a state of fear?
13. What injuries would you expect to see on boys of that size, had a snake weighing 100lbs fallen on top of them?
13. If so, would it more likely lie still or constrict?
14. How would one man handle this snake and put it back in its enclosure, if it weighed 100lbs and was as described 15 feet long? Very carefully

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by aquila on 09.08.13 13:35

I'm not good at physics and I'm hoping someone who is can explain this properly.

A 100lb snake is only 100lbs of stress on a ceiling if it's curled up and it's weight is concentrated.

If a snake is uncurled it's body weight is distributed. It would have to be one hell of a flimsy/flawed ceiling to cave in to such minimal weight.

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by PeterMac on 09.08.13 14:40

And the area of ceiling which fell down would also be considerable.

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by whmon on 09.08.13 14:50

Maybe the jemmied ceiling was a 'red herring'

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by aiyoyo on 09.08.13 15:31

@PeterMac wrote:And the area of ceiling which fell down would also be considerable.
Not a hole then?  Half the ceiling must have collapsed, yet every one slept through it and no one heard it.  
What puzzles me is -  how come the snake had remained coiled nearby the boy.  

What would interesting to know is who in particular authorised to euthanise it?

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by russiandoll on 09.08.13 15:37

What puzzles me is the theory that the snake caused death by constriction. If the boys were both lying flat as they likely were while asleep, how did a snake manage to wrap itself around their bodies?

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by Praiaaa on 09.08.13 16:35

@russiandoll wrote:What puzzles me is the theory that the snake caused death by constriction. If the boys were both lying flat as they likely were while asleep, how did a snake manage to wrap itself around their bodies?
indeed - all very puzzling.
If it turns out the snake was not the culprit, I hope it shine a big light on perps who get in quick with a big lie that becomes the accepted truth.



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Re: Snake deaths

Post by russiandoll on 09.08.13 21:11

Update from CBC New Brunswick  :


      updated Python pet shop tied to boys' deaths had 27 illegal animals


Twenty-seven illegal animals have been removed from the building in Campbellton, N.B., where two boys were killed by an African rock python, including four American alligators kept in the main-floor exotic pet store that had to be euthanized on site


 so more animals die because of human stupidity...what WAS this man thinking ?

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Re: Snake deaths

Post by stumo on 09.08.13 22:41

@russiandoll wrote:What puzzles me is the theory that the snake caused death by constriction. If the boys were both lying flat as they likely were while asleep, how did a snake manage to wrap itself around their bodies?
   The same way you would be able to put your arms under a sleeping child and pick it up.....

Apparently Rock Pythons can eat prey up to 60KG !!!


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