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Hillsborough probe finds more police statements changed

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Re: Hillsborough probe finds more police statements changed

Post by aiyoyo on 03.04.14 15:47

@PeterMac wrote:quite.
The Police had been given time to plan and the resources to organise a proper response.
The lack of a safety certificate, the failure of the council to prevent the venue's use and the decision of the FA to go ahead even though they know there had been crushes at previous similar events are a separate matter.
But post H, my local commander chose to "kettle" a whole train full of drunken fans in the station yard in Nottingham for the duration of the match,
and ended up being investigated over many years by hundreds of solicitors all acting for their [i]lovely peaceful sober fun-loving clients[i], for wrongful imprisonment, breach of Habeus Corpus, kidnap, etc etc

A policeman's lot is not a happy one.


The law is an arse; and men are worst a.h. for creating law and abusing it to suit his convenient.
The Police were in a lose lose situation regardless.  Allow them access and be damned, deny them access and be sued left right centre.
This world is full of insane idiots using the law willy nilly to vent their anger or fill their pocket.  

Why should council and FA be absolved of any responsibility the law regulates they must ensure safe venue and safety of the public when hosting public events; but somehow the spotlight is never on them in the H. saga. 
It is unfailingly the Police, being minders of the crowd, that get blamed irrespectively which isn't fair or just.  
But the law is not about fairness or justice.   

You wonder why police force still attracts takers, when it is such a tough, relatively dangerous job and unrewarding job.

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Re: Hillsborough probe finds more police statements changed

Post by PeterMac on 03.04.14 16:08

@aiyoyo wrote:. . .The Police were in a lose lose situation regardless.  Allow them access and be damned, deny them access and be sued left right centre.
. . .
You wonder why police force still attracts takers, when it is such a tough, relatively dangerous job and unrewarding job.
The police are usually in a lose : lose situation.
Try to prevent street crime and get accused of racism
Try to address child abuse and get accused of victimising the lower classes
Try to address the serious problems of terrorism and get accused of spying and dirty tricks

Actually it is not an "unrewarding job". For my last ten years I had 24 hour responsibility for nearly 200,000 people, on every day my boss was not on duty.
(Superintendent works 210 days, so the Chief Inspector does the other 155 as unpaid Super, and the other 55 as CI. !)
Then on promotion it changed round and I did the 210.
And it was 24 hours - I could be rung or called out, and sometimes was. Not frequently, since we had a good set of Inspectors, but there are some things which require
the Supt, either legally, or because the Insp cannot see how to get out of or close down a particular situation - guns being the classic example of this difficulty.

So not unrewarding. Knowing that all this is going on behind the scenes, and that the public are largely unaware of what is going on can fill one with a certain warmth.
For that the pay is reasonable, and the pension good (though we paid 11% for it) and retirement relatively early.

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Re: Hillsborough probe finds more police statements changed

Post by aiyoyo on 03.04.14 16:08

Châtelaine wrote:@ PeterMac
That reminds me of a case in NL some 25+ years ago, when a train with hooligans [sorry, football supporters] was on its way to an away match. They were very "fun-loving" and tearing the place apart. The engine-driver demanded several times, that they should stop and be quiet, with  adverse result. So he arranged for the train to go on a side-track, locked the doors and stayed there until the match was over ...  big grin 


I hate football not only because it's no longer a sport but a commercial product. The ridiculous wages footballers earn for something they enjoy doing it sinful.  They don't contribute meaningfully to the Community or Society in the same manner as teachers or police but they get paid indecent amount of money that they waste on drugs, womanizing,or whatever.  

Not only that, I hate the fans mentality and their yobbish culture of endless drinks screams and shouts when their team scored or curse when opposition scored.  It's the atrocious behavior of the fans which is off putting to me.  I don't mind people watching it for sports sake as a sport but not as fans.  Tennis is OK, Tennis is something you can be neutral about it even if you have favourite.

My opposite neighbour is a couple where one supports Man U and the other one supports Man City and each time we have them over for dinner and if convo. turns to football I just want to crawl under the table or go hide inside the toilet until the topic is changed. 
And, if pushed I can become not too restrained with remarks where manners go out the window. But luckily that does not deter my neighbour from recurring visits ......they keep coming back .....sometimes for more of the same......

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Re: Hillsborough probe finds more police statements changed

Post by Guest on 03.04.14 16:29

Thanks, Tigger. I hate it too and whenever conversation goes into that subject, I suddenly have all kinds of other things to attend to ... Only Maman is allowed to mention it. She loves watching soccer [and would have made an excellent referee ...], so she gets her 5 [five] minutes to talk about a match, she just saw on t.v.

When talking about money: the costs of NSY investigation so far, wouldn't have paid for the acquisition of half a soccer player  winkwink

Back O.T. I agree that the organisers of big events, as well as the control bodies, are basically responsible for a catastrophe to happen. Remember the disaster in Duisburg in 2010 [21 killed, 500+ injured] with a TUNNEL for entry AND exit of the festival terrain? Even if there wouldn't have been [much] more people than allowed, this also was a catastrophe waiting to happen  sad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Parade_disaster

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Re: Hillsborough probe finds more police statements changed

Post by aiyoyo on 03.04.14 16:38

@PeterMac wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:. . .The Police were in a lose lose situation regardless.  Allow them access and be damned, deny them access and be sued left right centre.
. . .
You wonder why police force still attracts takers, when it is such a tough, relatively dangerous job and unrewarding job.
The police are usually in a lose : lose situation.
Try to prevent street crime and get accused of racism
Try to address child abuse and get accused of victimising the lower classes
Try to address the serious problems of terrorism and get accused of spying and dirty tricks

Actually it is not an "unrewarding job".  For my last ten years I had 24 hour responsibility for nearly 200,000 people, on every day my boss was not on duty.
(Superintendent works 210 days, so the Chief Inspector does the other 155 as unpaid Super, and the other 55 as CI. !)
Then on promotion it changed round and I did the 210.
And it was 24 hours - I could be rung or called out, and sometimes was.  Not frequently, since we had a good set of Inspectors, but there are some things which require
the Supt, either legally, or because the Insp cannot see how to get out of or close down a particular situation - guns being the classic example of this difficulty.

So not unrewarding.  Knowing that all this is going on behind the scenes, and that the public are largely unaware of what is going on can fill one with a certain warmth.
For that the pay is reasonable, and the pension good (though we paid 11% for it) and retirement relatively early.


Police being accused of racism is classic for minority race offenders, wanting to use that excuse to get at the Police for having caught them out.  One casual remark if reacted to wrongly can be taken out of context and all hell will break lose.

That said, my friend's hubby is police vehicle driver whose best mate his opp. neighour is a copper who hates the minority (as in black or asian) and my friend's hubby told me his racist copper neighbour joined the Police Force just to get at pursue and get at those; so far he hasn't been caught in an-unable-to-disentangle situation yet,though all his colleagues know he's a racist.  He openly remarks negatively about the minority. 

It just goes to show offenders and police alike are equally capable of playing the racism card or using it to fit a purpose.
It is bigoted coppers like that spoil it for the good coppers. 
Racism accusation is rampant at every work place but more so in the Police force simply because people falling on the wrong side of the law don't like law enforcers naturally.

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Re: Hillsborough probe finds more police statements changed

Post by PeterMac on 03.04.14 16:50

The Met were deemed to be institutionalised racist - whatever that meant.

Now try being a friendly Dixon-of-Dock-Green neighbourhood cop in Broadwater Farm where one of your colleagues has just been beheaded by a mob of black men, and many others are in hospital.
Since Brixton, Broadwater Farm, and everywhere else the police know of what these mobs are capable.
Stand in the way of an organised drug cartel, where you know that they are all routinely carrying, and you may find yourself with a problem.
Execute a clinical operation to shut one down, and they will scream racism.
And the word "Phobia" does not mean hatred, it means fear
Why are the press not reporting the ongoing trial of another man accused of murdering the officer ?
Might this divert from Baroness Lawrence's message that black is good, white is bad ?

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Re: Hillsborough probe finds more police statements changed

Post by aiyoyo on 03.04.14 18:04

@PeterMac wrote:The Met were deemed to be institutionalised racist - whatever that meant.

Whatever that meant it is only subjective.
Some believe it to be true, some don't !
I don't believe it to be a blanket case.
Every institution has some of those, comes with the dynamics of a mixed society, you can't avoid it.

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Re: Hillsborough probe finds more police statements changed

Post by russiandoll on 24.04.14 22:18

Broke on BBC news about an hour ago, the latest in the disgusting saga  :


Exclusive: Shocking Hillsborough insults added on Wikipedia from Government computers










Families shock and anger over revisions including "Blame Liverpool fans" and "You'll Never Walk Again" made from machines in Treasury and Department for Culture, Media and Sport


Fans of Liverpool hold scarves aloft
Government computers have been used to insert insulting references into Wikipedia entries for the Hillsborough disaster, the ECHO can reveal.
A series of sickening revisions to the site began on the 20th anniversary of the 1989 tragedy, when “Blame Liverpool fans” was anonymously added to the Hillsborough section of the encyclopedia site.
Computers on Whitehall’s secure intranet were used again in 2012 to change the phrase “You’ll never walk alone” to “You’ll never walk again” and later “You’ll never w*** alone.”






 
A further amendment from a government machine includes changes to the phrase “This is Anfield”, which appears above the players’ tunnel at the club's ground, to “This is a S***hole.”
* Click here to see our full archive of Hillsborough stories and more
The words “nothing for the victims of the Heysel stadium disaster” were also added to a description of the Hillsborough memorial at the Reds’ stadium.
On another occasion, the description of a Bill Shankly statue on the Anfield Wikipedia page was revised to change the well-known quote “He made the people happy” to “He made a wonderful lemon drizzle cake.”
The entries were posted from IP addresses used by computers based in government departments including the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, Her Majesty's Treasury and the Office of the Solicitor General.
Sheila Coleman of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign described the edits as “absolutely disgusting” and said the families of the victims would demand a formal inquiry.
She told the ECHO: “We’re still in the inquests and we’ve sat listening to the most heart-breaking accounts of that day, and then you hear about things like this. It’s absolutely appalling, disgraceful.
“I’m just completely appalled, my God. It’s shocking that these comments came from within the government, no matter how spurious.
“The fact is that these changes came from within the government and that’s very saddening. It warrants an investigation and we will be seeking formal advice from our legal team.”
The Cabinet Office yesterday pledged to make “urgent inquiries” into the incident.
A spokeswoman said: “We thank the Liverpool ECHO for bringing this to our attention. This is a matter that we will treat with the utmost seriousness and are making urgent inquiries.
“No one should be in any doubt of the government’s position regarding the Hillsborough disaster and its support for the families of the 96 victims and all those affected by the tragedy.”
Margaret Aspinall of the Hillsborough Family Support Group said she was “saddened” and “frightened” by the news.
She said: “I don’t even know how to react, it’s just so sad.
“I hear something like that and it upsets me a great deal, it makes me incredibly sad. I’m glad somebody has found out about it but I’m frightened to be honest that we haven’t known until now.”
How the changes came to light
The vandalism posted by people with access to government computers on Hillsborough Wikipedia pages was traced through a series of IP addresses.
Computers on the Whitehall estate are linked by the Government Secure Intranet GSI), a service that allows different departments to share sensitive data securely.
The web of computers is tracked online by a handful of IP addresses, the details of which were released by Wallasey MP Angela Eagle following a parliamentary question in 2008, when she was a Treasury minister.
Analysis of Wikipedia’s revision history revealed the same unique ID codes were used to amend the Hillsborough and Anfield pages with a series of sick jokes.
Of the 34 government IP addresses known to the public, at least two were used over a three-year period to insert the phrases “Blame Liverpool fans” and “You’ll never walk again.”
However, an official inquiry is necessary to establish exactly which department and which people are responsible for the changes as the IP addresses cover thousands of Whitehall computers.

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Re: Hillsborough probe finds more police statements changed

Post by plebgate on 25.04.14 8:59

Disgusting behaviour.

The people of Liverpool will not rest until an inquiry is held into this disgusting behaviour and rightly so.  

We read last year about the thousands and thousands of hits to porn sites from government computers, what the heck is going on in this country and why can't decent behaviour be brought back into government and our society.

Lies, filth and anti social behaviour has become the norm in this country - not heard one politican vow to tackle it and MEAN it.

Shame on the lot of them I say.

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Inquest still grinding along. Freemasonry now being discussed

Post by PeterMac on 09.09.14 14:29

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/sep/05/hillsborough-inquest-officer-report-suppressed?CMP=twt_gu
Hillsborough officer: report 'suppressed' by bosses
Frank Brayford tells new inquest into 1989 disaster he had concerns about staffing and wrote a report

David Conn
theguardian.com, Friday 5 September 2014 16.25 BST

A former senior policeman said a report of his concerns about the policing of the fateful FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough was "suppressed" by his bosses, the inquest into the deaths of 96 Liverpool fans has heard.

Frank Brayford said that following the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest on 15 April 1989, a senior officer told him it "was not in his interests" to become involved in giving evidence. Brayford said that "was like confirming suspicions that there was something sinister" going on within the South Yorkshire police in the days following the disaster.
Brayford, who had been involved in the previous year's semi-final at Hillsborough between the same clubs under the former Ch Supt, Brian Mole, said he had concerns about the staffing and operational policing at Hillsborough in 1989, and did write a report, which he sent to South Yorkshire police. Subsequently, he said, he was called by a Supt, Ian Mountain and told: "My office now."
Brayford said that Mountain then told him: "Stop putting reports in about Hillsborough. You're not a witness, you weren't there. It's nowt to do with you."
He was then visited in his office by a police constable, Greenway, [who brought with him an officer] who "purported" to be from West Midlands police. Brayford said that [the officer] stood at his office door and said: "You will never give evidence to Lord Justice Taylor's [public inquiry]."

Brayford told the inquest he was "incensed" by that and ran after Greenway, but could not find him. He said he did make his concerns known to two MPs, but was not satisfied by their response, and heard no more about it until he was contacted this year by Operation Resolve, the police investigation for this new inquest, 25 years after the disaster.
Until shortly before the disaster, Brayford served as the staff officer for Ch Supt Mole in South Yorkshire police's F division, which covered Hillsborough. Mole, who was experienced at policing matches at Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough ground, was moved from that division to Barnsley on 27 March 1989, 19 days before the semi-final. Brayford said Mole told him he had been moved not for "career development," as the force said officially, but to make him take responsibility for a brutal prank played on a probationary constable involving a gun, for which several officers were disciplined.

Brayford was also moved; he said an assistant chief constable, Stuart Anderson, told him, because Brayford had "usurped the authority" of another officer, Supt Roger Marshall, which he said was untrue.

Fiona Barton, representing South Yorkshire Police, asked Brayford: "The evidence that you are giving now is that there was some sort of concerted effort on the part of a number of officers of South Yorkshire Police at the time to suppress your reports, that is your account?"
He replied: "That is the strength of it.
He agreed with Barton that he had not shown his reports to the then Police Complaints Authority or the Home Office at the time.
Barton asked him why he did not pass on his report to the Taylor inquiry or attend the public hearing.
He said: "I would not be allowed in there and you know it too."

Barton continued: "This account about the concealment of your reports is a complete fabrication and these reports were never written, were they?"
Brayford replied: "I am not lying today and I were not lying when I wrote that statement
"I have come here to tell the truth.
"It has been very, very difficult.
"I must tell you I did speak to two members of Parliament about it but the answers were not satisfactory, they didn't throw any light on it all.
"Wherever I went I got the impression 'you have no chance'. I know I have no chance here this morning telling you this.

"People that's concerned are not going to change their evidence. I don't want them to, They can't. They'll go straight to prison but that doesn't mean that it's not true."
Mole was replaced by Ch Supt David Duckenfield, who the jury has heard had never policed a match at the Hillsborough football ground before. Brayford said their only previous contact had been at a football match, when Duckenfield had given him a masonic handshake. He told Duckenfield he was not involved with the freemasons, and Duckenfield, he said, had replied: "Well, you ought to be."

Brayford said that after Mole was told he would be transferred, they invited Duckenfield to a semi-final planning meeting on 22 March 1989, but Duckenfield refused because he had not yet had his promotion to chief superintendent confirmed.
"He said: 'Look Frank, I've got a crown on my shoulder, and when I've got a crown and a pip I'll be a chief superintendent. Then I'll come into your police station, and not before.'"
Brayford said that Mole had called Duckenfield, who had refused again to come to the planning meeting. "It was like a punch, like a kick in the nuts; Mole took it badly," Brayford said.

The day before the semi-final, Mole had come to his home, Brayford said, had a gin and tonic, and told him he was "worried" about the handling of the match by Duckenfield, who had reduced the staffing by 10%, 1100 officers, leaving him "short of men." He said that after the 96 Liverpool supporters died at the match, Mole had said that in his evidence he was going to be "loyal" to South Yorkshire police. Brayford said a sergeant, William Crawford, told him after the match he had been on duty outside the tunnel leading to the central "pens" of the Leppings Lane terrace where the disaster happened, but Crawford had not known that barriers left there were for closing off the tunnel when the "pens" were full. The jury has been told that the tunnel was never closed off.
Brayford said Crawford told him that officers had been told not to record evidence about the disaster in their official police notebooks, but on slips of paper. Brayford said that was the first time he had ever known that to happen in the service, which he joined in 1967. He said he told Crawford he would be "mad" to agree not to write in his notebook.
Brayford rejected the suggestion from John Beggs QC, representing Duckenfield and the former superintendents Roger Marshall and Roger Greenwood, that he was "embittered" and was giving untrue evidence out of "spite" because he had never forgiven Duckenfield and Marshall for moving him out of F Division.
Beggs pointed to the evidence Mole and four other officers had given in statements, that Duckenfield was at the 22 March planning meeting. Brayford replied that this was the "closing of ranks," and part of the "dirty tricks brigade." He said it was part of the culture to tell lies out of "loyalty" to the force, and that the chief constable, Peter Wright, had told Brayford he had been disloyal for refusing to tell lies on occasions.
The jury had already been told that no minutes of that meeting or list of attendees recorded by South Yorkshire police have ever been found. Patrick Roche, representing 75 families who lost relatives in the disaster, showed Brayford an internal South Yorkshire police memo which showed that notes of the meeting had been typed up and were last known to have been given to Duckenfield.
Brayford said of that: "I don't know what he did with them."
Beggs took Brayford through three internal South Yorkshire police reports, dated 31 March 1989, which referred to him kissing or embracing the female administrator within the police offices, and a memo of the same date, in which Duckenfield was recommending Brayford be moved for his "inappropriate" behaviour.
Brayford said he had been having an affair with the woman, but it was untrue that he had been behaving improperly with her at work. "We used to call it a fit up," he said.
He said he blamed ex assistant chief constable Anderson, and "his mate, Duckenfield," for then leaking a story about Brayford's alleged "frolicking" to the Yorkshire Post.
The inquest continues.

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Freemason police officers tried to 'shift blame' after Hillsborough disaster, inquest told

Post by Guest on 17.12.14 19:58

Freemason police officers tried to ‘shift blame’ after Hillsborough disaster, inquest told
Police constable tells inquest representing 75 victims’ families he did not come forward about masonic meeting earlier for fears over his job

Commemoration at Anfield stadium marking 25 years since the Hillsborough disaster, in which 96 people died. Photograph: Christopher Thomond for the Guardian
Senior South Yorkshire police officers who were freemasons orchestrated a “masonic conspiracy” to “shift the blame” after the Hillsborough disaster in 1989, the inquests into the deaths of the 96 victims have been told.
Maxwell Groome, a police constable at the time, said that after the disaster, at the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at Sheffield Wednesday’s football ground, “the word” inside the force was that freemason officers held a meeting to blame superintendent Roger Marshall. Groome said he heard that the meeting took place in portable cabins at South Yorkshire police’s area office, and was attended by Chief superintendent David Duckenfield, who had commanded the match.
Questioned by Michael Mansfield QC, representing 75 families whose relatives were killed at Hillsborough, Groome said he believed Duckenfield was “a grandmaster of a particularly influential lodge” – the Dore lodge in Sheffield.
Groome also told the inquest that senior officers pressurised junior officers to change their statements after the disaster, because they were “terrified” of criticism of the force’s command. He said he was “duped” into agreeing to the changes, because he believed if he did not, he would never be called to give evidence to Lord Justice Taylor’s official inquiry or to the first inquest, and his statement would be “magicked away, dumped in a box, never to see the light of day again.”
A colleague, PC Brookes – whose first name was not given in court – called the inquiry team at West Midlands police, Groome said, to complain it was “a masonic conspiracy”.
Groome said that Brookes told him West Midlands police asked if he could prove the conspiracy. Brookes told them he couldn’t, and Groome said they concluded that it would not be investigated. Asked why in his earlier accounts about the events of the day he did not include the rumoured meeting of freemason officers, Groome replied: “Basically, I’d have been committing professional suicide.”
Marshall, who was in command outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles at Hillsborough, had requested a large exit gate to be opened, to alleviate a crush of Liverpool supporters outside the ground, and allow a large number in. The jury has heard that police did not close off a tunnel inside, which led to the Leppings Lane terrace’s crowded central “pens”. that many of the incoming fans headed down it, and the lethal crush happened in those pens.
Groome said he subsequently heard of the meeting between senior officers, said to have included Duckenfield, superintendents Roger Greenwood and Bernard Murray, Inspector Steven Sewell and Chief inspector David Beal.
“Being unable to prove it, I believe that most of them were masons,” he said.
The coroner, Lord Justice Goldring, sent out the jury of seven women and four men to allow legal discussions after Groome gave his evidence about the freemasons’ meeting. At the end of the day, the coroner referred the jury to “evidence of a meeting said by Mr Groome, on the basis of rumour, to have taken place on the morning of April 16”.
Goldring told them: “I should say this quite clearly to you: we have no other evidence than this rumour, said to emanate from the [South Yorkshire police] area office. It amounts to no more than what the witness described as ‘scuttlebutt’.’”
Groome, who on the day helped other Liverpool supporters carry one of the 96 victims, Colin Wafer, 19, on an advertising hoarding being used as a makeshift stretcher, said the police operation as the disaster unfolded was “chaotic”. The inquest was shown Groome’s original statement – typed “recollections” made on plain paper after the event. He said officers were told not to write their accounts in their official police pocketbooks. Groome’s criticisms, which were removed in handwritten amendments after he submitted the statement, included a comment that “certain supervisory officers were conspicuous by their absence”.
Asked by Jonathan Hough, counsel for the coroner, to whom that comment was referring, Groome replied: “Duckenfield”.
Groome had also written: “The control room [where Duckenfield was in command] seemed to have been hit by some sort of paralysis.”
Other criticisms he made in his statement, which were also deleted, included the decision not to delay the match’s 3pm kick-off; reductions in police manpower; staffing of the control room; that “too many officers were sitting around in the gymnasium” and pointed to the removal from command at Hillsborough of the experienced officer, Chief superintendant Brian Mole. The jury has heard that Mole was replaced on March 27 1989, 19 days before the semi-final which 54,000 people would attend, by Duckenfield, who had never commanded a match at Hillsborough before.
Groome subsequently signed a typed up version of his amended statement, he says, because he feared that it would not see the light of day otherwise.
The “main thrust” of the pressure to change his statement was, Groome said: “They were terrified of junior officers criticising senior officers and therefore, in their eyes, undermining the command structure of South Yorkshire police.”
The inquests continue.

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