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'And then she moved on..'

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by russiandoll on 12.07.13 17:44

@AndyB wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:Remember "Our lives are over". Why ? They still have two thirds of their children.
That, to me, means Professional lives. Something had happened so serious, or involving such a degree of negligence, or so unutterable dreadful, or illegal (!) that their professional lives would have been finished.
And that is not merely failing to notice a bump on the head.

I agree but what could be so serious for them to make that decision, yet not so serious that the other 7 agree a pact of silence and stick to it?

  Don't get your point here, AndyB . The other 7 might have had little or no choice but to agree if it was a thing common to the group and were told by the McCanns  that they needed to close ranks because the whole group had been doing the same thing.
 If we go down, you go down with us, remember guys...

 All for one and one for all. The 9 Musketeers.
 btw I doubt DW was involved but maybe she toed the line eventually, to protect her daughter.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by guest. on 12.07.13 18:32

@russiandoll wrote:
@AndyB wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:Remember "Our lives are over". Why ? They still have two thirds of their children.
That, to me, means Professional lives. Something had happened so serious, or involving such a degree of negligence, or so unutterable dreadful, or illegal (!) that their professional lives would have been finished.
And that is not merely failing to notice a bump on the head.

I agree but what could be so serious for them to make that decision, yet not so serious that the other 7 agree a pact of silence and stick to it?

  Don't get your point here, AndyB . The other 7 might have had little or no choice but to agree if it was a thing common to the group and were told by the McCanns  that they needed to close ranks because the whole group had been doing the same thing.
 If we go down, you go down with us, remember guys...

 All for one and one for all. The 9 Musketeers.
 btw I doubt DW was involved but maybe she toed the line eventually, to protect her daughter.

That's what I think too Russiandoll

I also think there is extra pressure from somewhere

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by suzyjohnson on 12.07.13 22:31

@Monty Heck wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:One of the things I find strange about this incident is the answer to the question, why didn't they come while MM and SM were crying?

Was it while they were in the bath?

Would anyone leave a 3 yr old and two toddlers in the bath without adult supervision?

I can't understand how KM could have taken a shower (at 6.30pm May 3rd) and left the three in the lounge at this time either, it's just asking for trouble.

But then I wouldn't go out for the night and leave them alone. These parents seem to think all of this is acceptable.

It isn't really surprising something happened to MM is it?

 Sorry to go back a bit in the discussion - just catching up.  I also find it hard to accept this claim by a GP that she went for a shower leaving three children of that age unsupervised when she was perfectly aware she had two hours to spare before the meet up for dinner and that her partner would be back in time to assist with the children.  She has explained how she had time to apply make up and spend an hour drinking wine prior to going out, so time was not an issue.  This story is simply not credible unless KMcC is a complete dunce.

 Monty Heck, don't forget KM's evidence that she went for a bath as well, when GM got back and before they went to the Tapas.

I don't find it too surprising that MM asked her parents where they were and then 'moved on' She was probably well used to life without her parents around.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by Hobs on 13.07.13 0:01

When water, opening/closong doors, lights on or off are introduced into the statement, it can be an indication of some form of sexual abuse.

Why the obsession over the door position with it being said it wasn't  the same as when we left it , given that oldfield had supposedly checked on the children?
If he had done the check then it is highly likely the door wouldn't be in the exact position the parents left it, unless he was there with a protractor and strict instructions.

Also kate tells us in her statements she had a shower and and answered the door to payne wrapped in a towel and then later on she has a bath.

Why the need to have both a shower and a bath?

Why the discrepancy over how long payne was there, a minute or so can in no way be compared to half an hour or so.

Again i come back to her comment about Maddie crying and wondering if it was when they were being bathed?

If the mccanns were bathing the children and putting them to bed then the comment would never have arisen.

Therefore who was bathing the children and where?

If the children were being bathed in apt 5a and the parents were also there, why would thery have not checked to see why they were crying and reassured them?

Since they didn't where were kate and gerry if not in 5a and who was bathing them?

If kate and gerry were in 5a where were the children being bathed since clearly the parents never heard them crying and who was bathing them?

 Ditto for being put to bed, if they were in 5a the comment would not have arisen.
If they were in 5a where were kate and gerry and who was putting them to bed?

If kate and gerry were in 5a where were the children and who was putting them to bed?

This also coincides with a comment from a witness saying the twins were removed back to their apartment.

This points straight at payne given the Gaspars statements and the alluding to him liking to bathe little children who aren't his.

Is this why there is a discrepancy over how long he was there for?

Was there something else going on perhaps between him and kate that the time had to be fudged?

In kate and gerry's statements we have the introduction of doors opening and closing, washing and lights on and off.

In free editing we don't go into minute detail of everything we do as otherwise we would be there all day.

It is assumed that when you put children to sleep you close the door, d turn off the lights , close the curtains etc, it's like saying i had a shower and then dried myself off with a towel, we don't need to be told you dried yourself off it is assumed unless you go running around in the yard to dry off.

When words are introduced into a statement it is because it is at the forefront of their thinking, it is sensitive to them.

Oftime they introduce something because it is sensitive to them and they presume it is also going to be sensitive to the interviewer. explaining away something before they ask the question which then gets the interviewers attention.

The grandparents have admitted the children were sedated at times ( i bet  kate and gerry wished they had kept their mouths shut)  if this is the case then the mccanns would be in deep doo doo with the GMC and the last thing they want or need is the GMC on their backs with the risk of losing their licences.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by aiyoyo on 13.07.13 6:39

@suzyjohnson wrote:

I don't find it too surprising that MM asked her parents where they were and then 'moved on' She was probably well used to life without her parents around.

It's not normal for a parent not to ask the child why she was crying.
And evidently, Kate didn't ask, or she would have had an answer.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by Guest on 13.07.13 7:57

Isn't it funny how their word becomes law and the crying incident is used in interview to further substantiate the "abductor in the room" and there's never a question about why they continued to go out partying when Madeleine made that statement and "moved on". And again as Hobs points out she makes that ridiculous circus around the door when Matt had been there in between and could have left the door at any angle. If it had been a regular couple social services would have been all over them.

Even when they claim that they thought twice about not going to the Tapas on 3rd it wasn't out of concern for the welfare of their children, only that the Tapas was at its capacity. I wonder if they had actually cancelled dinner on Thursday in the same way that Kate remembered to cancel her shopping delivery for Saturday and were covering.

I still think there was a plan around the beach in the evening but something went badly wrong.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by suzyjohnson on 13.07.13 11:50

@aiyoyo wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:

I don't find it too surprising that MM asked her parents where they were and then 'moved on' She was probably well used to life without her parents around.

It's not normal for a parent not to ask the child why she was crying.  
And evidently, Kate didn't ask, or she would have had an answer.

I've always thought it was a strange comment for GM and KM to make. If it was true I suppose they just looked at each other and thought, she's been awake again. After all, they had arrived back on the Tuesday night, to find MM crying (Mrs Fenn's evidence) Then, presumably, the question between them would be, what are we going to do about tonight? 

If the McCanns made that story up, either to give the impression that MM waking up was unusual, or to make out that someone had been in the apartment and woke her up, then I can't understand that either. Isn't it obvious to them that people would think it was very unlikely that someone had been in the apartment and that the statement would once again cast their parenting skills in a bad light?

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by Guest on 13.07.13 13:52

It's IMO very well possible, they made that story up to "proof" that she was still alive the Thursday morning ...

Their combined statements do give the impression that there's been some "time-shifting" of that holiday week, so - if maybe the story is true - it may have been a remark on the Wednesday morning.
The dogs cannot say whose cadaver scent they smelled, nor when the scent was developed.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by aiyoyo on 13.07.13 14:32

Châtelaine wrote:It's IMO very well possible, they made that story up to "proof" that she was still alive the Thursday morning ...

Their combined statements do give the impression that there's been some "time-shifting" of that holiday week, so - if maybe the story is true - it may have been a remark on the Wednesday morning.
The dogs cannot say whose cadaver scent they smelled, nor when the scent was developed.

Meaning possibly Maddie died early. That reminds me of Monsieur l'eau Froid and his inside info from Police.

I was so taken in by his info and believed him to be genuine (still do in fact, yeah...stop laughing......) and awaiting to be proved wrong in my judgement of people when this case is finally solved.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by Guest on 13.07.13 14:42

@aiyoyo wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:It's IMO very well possible, they made that story up to "proof" that she was still alive the Thursday morning ...

Their combined statements do give the impression that there's been some "time-shifting" of that holiday week, so - if maybe the story is true - it may have been a remark on the Wednesday morning.
The dogs cannot say whose cadaver scent they smelled, nor when the scent was developed.

Meaning possibly Maddie died early.  That reminds me of Monsieur l'eau Froid and his inside info from Police.

I was so taken in by his info and believed him to be genuine (still do in fact, yeah...stop laughing......) and awaiting to be proved wrong in my judgement of people when this case is finally solved.

Can you elaborate aiyoyo, that's a new one to me.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by aiyoyo on 14.07.13 5:18

Finn wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:It's IMO very well possible, they made that story up to "proof" that she was still alive the Thursday morning ...

Their combined statements do give the impression that there's been some "time-shifting" of that holiday week, so - if maybe the story is true - it may have been a remark on the Wednesday morning.
The dogs cannot say whose cadaver scent they smelled, nor when the scent was developed.

Meaning possibly Maddie died early.  That reminds me of Monsieur l'eau Froid and his inside info from Police.

I was so taken in by his info and believed him to be genuine (still do in fact, yeah...stop laughing......) and awaiting to be proved wrong in my judgement of people when this case is finally solved.

Can you elaborate aiyoyo, that's a new one to me.

Coldwater? Does it ring a bell?

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by tigger on 14.07.13 8:35

From 'A Crying Shame' July 2010 Dr. Martin Roberts:


What stands out most from this determination to bring Madeleine's transient unease to everyone's attention, is that Madeleine herself is portrayed as having drawn attention to it, on the Thursday, from which one is invited to conclude that she must have been in a position so to do - on the Thursday. Hence, verbal 'signs of life', promulgated, of course, by the McCanns, as was the untruth about 'jemmied shutters.'
unquote

The only 'conversations' with Maddie during that holiday reported are for the above purpose imo.
The Thursday morning, the Thursday evening when she said she'd had the 'best day ever'. Both the crying enquiry and the best day ever show a temporal awareness many years in advance of a toddler's conception of time. They are adult remarks and second-hand at that.
Supposedly 'proving' she was alive both in the morning and the evening of Thursday 3/5/07.

No other conversations with Maddie are reported as far as I know. No drawings she'd made, no photographs of her on her boat trip at the creche.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by guest. on 14.07.13 9:26

Mrs Fenn's hear crying on the Tuesday which wasn't reported to reception, they've ignored that and tried to discredit her in KM's book

Now we find out there was a couple on the Wednesday night who soothed M and they've already preempted that by the comment on the Thursday am from M to make out it was no big deal

IMO the level of neglect that week was a lot worse than we are lead to believe


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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by plebgate on 14.07.13 11:44

@aiyoyo wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:

I don't find it too surprising that MM asked her parents where they were and then 'moved on' She was probably well used to life without her parents around
.

It's not normal for a parent not to ask the child why she was crying.  
And evidently, Kate didn't ask, or she would have had an answer.

Seem to have sent the message without actually posting.smilie Edited again, as even made a mistake here. lol. It's too hot.

If she was well used to life wthout her parents being around why would she mention anything.  

IMO the question where were you when we were crying was because they were not in the apartment.  I really do think that if  they had been in the apartment they would have heard crying and investigated, especially if they were in the bath and somebody else had been bathing them.

What parent would not shoot out of a chair or stop what they were doing immediately to investigate crying?

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by suzyjohnson on 14.07.13 11:54

sally66 wrote:Mrs Fenn's hear crying on the Tuesday which wasn't reported to reception, they've ignored that and tried to discredit her in KM's book

Now  we find out there was a couple on the Wednesday night who soothed M and they've already preempted that by the comment on the Thursday am from M to make out it was no big deal

IMO the level of neglect that week was a lot worse than we are lead to believe


 Yes probably sally66, didn't someone from Mark Warners have to go and collect them from a different bar one night - Chaplins.

It might be an idea to gather all evidence in this regard together.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by Newintown on 14.07.13 15:24

@plebgate wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:

I don't find it too surprising that MM asked her parents where they were and then 'moved on' She was probably well used to life without her parents around
.

It's not normal for a parent not to ask the child why she was crying.  
And evidently, Kate didn't ask, or she would have had an answer.

Seem to have sent the message without  actually posting.smilie Edited again, as even made a mistake here.  lol.   It's too hot.

If she was well used to life wthout her parents being around why would she mention anything.  

IMO the question where were you when we were crying was because they were not in the apartment.  I really do think that if  they had been in the apartment they would have heard crying and investigated, especially if they were in the bath and somebody else had been bathing them.

What parent would not shoot out of a chair or stop what they were doing immediately to investigate crying?

Didn't Kate McCann also say to Madeleine ((I can't remember which day it was), that was she upset about not going to the beach with the other children. It seems a strange thing to say, why didn't Madeleine go to the beach with the other children, had something happened to her at that point and this was just another cover up story. Why would a Mother even say that to a barely-4 year old, even if the child did miss out on a beach trip she would more likely say "well we can take a picnic to the beach tomorrow, just you and me, that would be nice wouldn't it?",

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by russiandoll on 14.07.13 15:32

re : Chaplins, a rumour that has never been confirmed as far as I know. Any cctv there? Maybe SY who said in the past that they want to speak to bar owners and holidaymakers will take a look into this. If it can be confirmed that even one of the group was there and not at tapas during the evening....the whole dining near the apartments tale is shot to pieces and the abduction tale collapses.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by guest. on 14.07.13 18:19

@russiandoll wrote:re : Chaplins, a rumour that has never been confirmed as far as I know. Any cctv there? Maybe SY who said in the past that they want to speak to bar owners and holidaymakers will take a look into this. If it can be confirmed that even one of the group was there and not at tapas during the evening....the whole dining near the apartments tale is shot to pieces and the abduction tale collapses.

As far as I'm aware there has been no official confirmation they went to Chaplins, not sure if anybody else knows differently

However it has cropped up that many times I'm inclined to think they did go there

I can't see them missing out on an inclusive meal so IMO they would go after eating at the Tapas as Chaplins is also a bar after the kitchen closes

In one statement KM's I think she says she was stood at the bar but doesn't specify where

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by tigger on 14.07.13 18:39

sally66 wrote:
@russiandoll wrote:re : Chaplins, a rumour that has never been confirmed as far as I know. Any cctv there? Maybe SY who said in the past that they want to speak to bar owners and holidaymakers will take a look into this. If it can be confirmed that even one of the group was there and not at tapas during the evening....the whole dining near the apartments tale is shot to pieces and the abduction tale collapses.

As far as I'm aware there has been no official confirmation they went to Chaplins, not sure if anybody else knows differently

However it has cropped up that many times I'm inclined to think they did go there

I can't see them missing out on an inclusive meal so IMO they would go after eating at the Tapas as Chaplins is also a bar after the kitchen closes

In one statement KM's I think she says she was stood at the bar but doesn't specify where

Chaplins' Happy Hour with half-price drinks started more or less after the Tapas closed at about 11.00 p.m. according to Textusa although I can't find it.
But they were open until 2.00 in the morning and it's interesting that they had a quiz night. Imo the quiz night was never in the Tapas, that whole thing got mixed up. Quiz night in such a small bar with just twenty people seems strange and I vaguely remember reading that the luscious lady 'also' did the quiz night in Chaplins.

CHAPLINS

An English Restaurant great for traditional British dishes when you want to go for 'home cooking'.  Good value for money. Fish & Chips, Bangers and Mash etc.. Large portions, well prepared and nice service. They do a Cataplana for one which is unusual ( normally only for two persons ). The rack of lamb is probably the best we've ever eaten. The steaks are more than substantial. 3 course Sunday Roasts from €12 - ( 12.30 to 21.00 ). Take away service for fish & chips, curries, bangers and mash. ● Quiz night every Tuesday at 22.00 (seasonal). Be sure to say hello to Analise when you visit.
See a SAMPLE MENU here.
OPEN: 18.00 - 02.00 (7 nights). Food served: 18.00 - 22.00.
CLOSED (2007): December through February.
WHERE: This is the first of the four restaurants in a row just below the church and opposite the FORTALEZA.
Av. dos Pescadores.
TEL: (+351) 282 789 932.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by suzyjohnson on 14.07.13 20:15

Re Chaplins

I thought there was a documentary / news report from a few years ago where they were interviewing some of the PdL locals, and the story about the Tapas group being in Chaplins was being discussed on there

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by sheila.edwards on 14.07.13 22:33

sally66 wrote:Mrs Fenn's hear crying on the Tuesday which wasn't reported to reception, they've ignored that and tried to discredit her in KM's book

Now  we find out there was a couple on the Wednesday night who soothed M and they've already preempted that by the comment on the Thursday am from M to make out it was no big deal

IMO the level of neglect that week was a lot worse than we are lead to believe

agree, also they both thought the crying was when in bath ? who was bathing them or if they just left children in bath alone routeinly. JW stated GM said if they were there for 2 weeks he would have had a night in ! they brought no buggy with them on a holiday or hired one ?as no money or something but all signs imo of poor parenting skills,irresponsible protection of there childern could have been habitual, parents ? think children should be seen and not heard selfish attitude to care seems to be habitual with an obsession as to when and how long they SLEPT for,? so they do not have to care for them when asleep or not at crèche with childminders taking over there responsibility as parents they don't seem to have wanted or resented, is impression given  imo only.

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chile tv channel

Post by marconi on 15.07.13 0:20

@suzyjohnson wrote:Re Chaplins

I thought there was a documentary / news report from a few years ago where they were interviewing some of the PdL locals, and the story about the Tapas group being in Chaplins was being discussed on there

 Yes, Mrs Fenn went to her hair dresser and told her that the McCCanns were out, to Chaplin's restaurant, on May the 1st.
There is a video of a Chili TV channel where this happening is told by that lady.

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by guest. on 16.07.13 22:03

@sheila.edwards wrote:
sally66 wrote:Mrs Fenn's hear crying on the Tuesday which wasn't reported to reception, they've ignored that and tried to discredit her in KM's book

Now  we find out there was a couple on the Wednesday night who soothed M and they've already preempted that by the comment on the Thursday am from M to make out it was no big deal

IMO the level of neglect that week was a lot worse than we are lead to believe

agree, also they both thought the crying was when in bath ? who was bathing them or if they just left children in bath alone routeinly. JW stated GM said if they were there for 2 weeks he would have had a night in ! they brought no buggy with them on a holiday or hired one ?as no money or something but all signs imo of poor parenting skills,irresponsible protection of there childern could have been habitual, parents ? think children should be seen and not heard selfish attitude to care seems to be habitual with an obsession as to when and how long they SLEPT for,? so they do not have to care for them when asleep or not at crèche with childminders taking over there responsibility as parents they don't seem to have wanted or resented, is impression given  imo only.

IMO their priorities were all wrong and they spend money on going out drinking but too tight to pay for childcare, there is absolutely no excuse

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by guest. on 16.07.13 22:05

It has been said MW offered them a free babysitter for the Thursday but not sure if that is forum gossip or a fact

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Re: 'And then she moved on..'

Post by lj on 17.07.13 0:48

sally66 wrote:
@sheila.edwards wrote:
sally66 wrote:Mrs Fenn's hear crying on the Tuesday which wasn't reported to reception, they've ignored that and tried to discredit her in KM's book

Now  we find out there was a couple on the Wednesday night who soothed M and they've already preempted that by the comment on the Thursday am from M to make out it was no big deal

IMO the level of neglect that week was a lot worse than we are lead to believe

agree, also they both thought the crying was when in bath ? who was bathing them or if they just left children in bath alone routeinly. JW stated GM said if they were there for 2 weeks he would have had a night in ! they brought no buggy with them on a holiday or hired one ?as no money or something but all signs imo of poor parenting skills,irresponsible protection of there childern could have been habitual, parents ? think children should be seen and not heard selfish attitude to care seems to be habitual with an obsession as to when and how long they SLEPT for,? so they do not have to care for them when asleep or not at crèche with childminders taking over there responsibility as parents they don't seem to have wanted or resented, is impression given  imo only.

IMO their priorities were all wrong and they spend money on going out drinking but too tight to pay for childcare, there is absolutely no excuse

I recall their excuse was: "it is our vacation too"!     notme

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