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What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

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What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by aquila on 09.06.13 12:38

Is South Africa the rainbow nation that Mandela spoke of?

I'm opening this topic as I believe there is no evidence of a rainbow nation in South Africa. The ANC are corrupt beyond belief. That suits the western world when doing business. The ANC will get into bed with the highest bidder and China is doing nicely.

Let's face it, no country would be remotely interested in any African country if they had nothing to offer in terms of resources. South Africa not only has the resources it has the infrastructure and isn't some war-torn place.

Mandela is made out to be a world hero. Not everyone believes that. So who made Mandela a world hero? and what happens to South Africa after he has gone?

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by bobbin on 09.06.13 13:16

@aquila wrote:Is South Africa the rainbow nation that Mandela spoke of?

I'm opening this topic as I believe there is no evidence of a rainbow nation in South Africa. The ANC are corrupt beyond belief. That suits the western world when doing business. The ANC will get into bed with the highest bidder and China is doing nicely.

Let's face it, no country would be remotely interested in any African country if they had nothing to offer in terms of resources. South Africa not only has the resources it has the infrastructure and isn't some war-torn place.

Mandela is made out to be a world hero. Not everyone believes that. So who made Mandela a world hero? and what happens to South Africa after he has gone?
I was in SA, Cape Town, in late 1998, just as the former 'white rule' was being turned over to the 'ANC'. The growing sense of unease and lawlessness was scarily tangible. The fast encroaching corruption shouted as loud as a flashing neon light, blazonned on the forehead of each individual who was seizing for the first time, the unleashed power. It has continued to get worse since then. Is it any surprise ?

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by aquila on 09.06.13 13:51

Hi Bobbin,

It was 1994 that 'white rule' ended.

Just to give a flavour of the bias of the BBC here is an article from 9th May 2013 on South Africa from BBC News. I can only think they (the BBC) are readying themselves for the Mandela-fest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14094760

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by bobbin on 09.06.13 14:08

@aquila wrote:Hi Bobbin,

It was 1994 that 'white rule' ended.

Just to give a flavour of the bias of the BBC here is an article from 9th May 2013 on South Africa from BBC News. I can only think they are readying themselves for the Mandela-fest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14094760
yes, aquila, I know, but it was the growing 'daring/newly acquired courage' of the new regime that was taking hold and the balance was turning.
By 1998, the change of power was noticeably affecting former lifestyles in a very negative sense, for what had been 'a comfortable lifestyle' for the whites.
The formerly held down people had had no previous generations of schooling/training to take on managerial roles and yet they suddenly held positions where they were wielding power, and could use this to keep the former upper-echelons standing in the queues whilst they decided what decision to make and how much they could charge for such decisions.
What I saw was the equivalent of, 'things having been kept bottled up for a long, long time, leading to explosions when the stopper was released'.
I'll go and look at your BBC link now.

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by bobbin on 09.06.13 14:14

@aquila wrote:Hi Bobbin,

It was 1994 that 'white rule' ended.

Just to give a flavour of the bias of the BBC here is an article from 9th May 2013 on South Africa from BBC News. I can only think they (the BBC) are readying themselves for the Mandela-fest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14094760
as you say, the flavour is biassed, the BBC makes it all look rosy and lovely....

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by aquila on 09.06.13 14:43

@bobbin wrote:
@aquila wrote:Hi Bobbin,

It was 1994 that 'white rule' ended.

Just to give a flavour of the bias of the BBC here is an article from 9th May 2013 on South Africa from BBC News. I can only think they (the BBC) are readying themselves for the Mandela-fest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14094760
as you say, the flavour is biassed, the BBC makes it all look rosy and lovely....

It doesn't mention that this land distribution is going to kill food supply in South Africa and white farmers are being slaughtered (and I MEAN slaughtered - look it up on google if you have the stomach)...the white farmers who run the farms and supply the food. It doesn't say that South Africa has any policy (and I don't believe they have) to educate the 'rainbow citizens' in agriculture before they go off on a land grab with absolutely no idea of farming - never mind that they are told they have rights to this land (which I don't believe they have).

Look up the idiot Julius Malema to see what the ANC have condoned in the past as the leader of the ANC Youth League ANCYL and his outlook on land reform. See how much hatred he has for white people and how he has done nothing positive for his 'own' people.

It does mention 1 in 7 are HIV positive and AIDS drugs are free.....mmm....that makes you think doesn't it! Even Zuma declared he had unprotected sex with a woman he knew to be HIV positive and had a shower afterwards to cut the risk of contracting the disease. Good leadership policy hey!

The fact is that South Africa is tribal, as is all of Africa.

So where is Mandela's legacy after 20 years?

This wonderful country has gone down the sewer and it's about to get worse soon imo.

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by Snifferdog on 09.06.13 15:37

You are correct Aquila. I had not really wanted to post my thoughts re South Africa because most people are just not interested what happens here in this country - also not really understanding the intricacies of how it really was/is as it was never reported correctly and honestly on the telly and newspapers. (such as the Mccann story is reported on).
There is no rainbow nation, there never was and never will be. Purely because of differences in black and white culture. An inborn culmination of ones ancestors beliefs, values and ideals passed down from one generation to the next - no wishful thinking can ever change this fact. This is a natural racism evident in any country where immigrants do not assimilate an instead form their own communities and maintain it by choice and their mutual culture.
I am quite happy for black South Africans to practice their culture but I do not want to be forced to partake in it. Each to his own. This is why we had apartheid in the first place. Apartheid means separate - as in separate development.
Each tribe was given vast areas of land where they had mainly settled. There were many whites who were established in these areas with towns businesses and farms. These people were paid out for their properties and had to move, their dams farms houses towns etc being Given over to the various tribes. Some were vast farms (such as belonged to a relative of mine) but all these established fell into ruin without exception, the towns were soon in ruins too as also the infrastructure and equipment donated by the Nationalist government at the time. (As has now happened to the many farms in SA handed over recently). Blacks with a permanent residence in South Africa did not any pay tax yet hospitals, universities schools etc were built/maintained for them out of white tax payers money. (There was also no vat in those days). It was the 'evil' and wrongfully vilified Prime Minister Vervoed wot dunnit for them! Vervoed had good relations with the various tribal leaders of that time. He was subsequently murdered before he could introduce new tax laws which would force the big mining companies to such as Anglo American to pay more tax so that individual taxes could be reduced. Then began the successful campaign to demonise Vervoed who was actually a very good well loved (by most) and honourable person.
It should be mentioned that during apartheid the South African black population burgeoned from a few thousand into the many millions. They were not hunted down, exterminated and wiped off the planet as happened to many indigenous populations in other parts of the world. In contrast black South Africans were provided with the tools to be educated at their own pace - in schools and universities surrounded by their own culture and language - cared for in hospitals when they were sick - had houses built for them also with white taxpayer money. Needless to say South African whites have experienced no such considerations.
It certainly suited big business to have black rule in South Africa so they could rape the country for bribes all round. The terrorist ANC(mostly from the Xhoza tribe) was chosen instead of the more moderate Inkatha Freedom Party (mainly of the Zulu tribe). Perhaps because the ANC was headed by more corruptible people.
Certainly their Quattro training camp was a hellish place where the ANC practiced unspeakable cruelty on their own. There is enough material to read on the net about it and other other camps.
The ANC and PAC terrorist organisations singlehandedly encouraged the destruction of schools which were burnt an pillaged. People who were thought of as informers in the townships were necklaced by having a tyre put around their neck, petrol poured over them and down their throats and set alight whilst being stoned to death in a kind of community project style with kids as young as eight years old and mothers with babies on their backs joining in the fray. Things have simmered down since then, but there is still much barbaric behaviour evidenced by the murder sometimes in the most brutal way of whites and immigrant blacks who are thought to be stealing jobs. Such is the divide between the races. (I have not included the coloured community in this post which have been somewhat sidelined under black rule and have a different culture).
Some black older people who remember South Africa before ANC rule mention how they always had meat for the pot and how the children used to be obedient dutiful and have respect for their elders which is hardly the case anymore. Inflation/economic depression taken into account everybody is worse off these days in South Africa ' except the Fat Cats sucking up everything and leaving nothing for the poor.
Our excellent world class government hospitals schools and transport amongst others has fallen apart Woe betide you if you do not have a hospital plan and land up in a guvvie hospital. It will be a bit like playing Russian roulette.
As for Mandela - he was a terrorist prepared to blow up people. He knew about the ANC death camps where cadres went for so called training some who were raped tortured and killed in the most brutal fashion. Whilst he was president he liked to join in singing Kill the Farmer Kill the Boer with his good friends Joe Slovo et al. He has become an icon and this he does not deserve as did Jimmy Savile was not worthy of his accolades.

Just adding: Yes you are correct about the vicious brutal slaughter of whites in the country. Farmers but also some townspeople.

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An old tale

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.06.13 15:38

There's an old story about an African diplomat who gets invited on a diplomatic mission to India.

It's arranged for him to stay with a senior Indian diplomat and his family.

They live in a huge, 10-bedroom mansion with 3 acres of lovely gardens and a bevy of servants.

The African says: 'How can you afford this?'

The Indian winks and says: '10 percent!'

Several years later, there is a visit by an Indian delegation to Africa, and the Indian is invited to stay at the African's home.

As the African diplomat drives his Indian counterpart past desperately poor shanty villages, full of starving people, he eventually arrives through huge wrought iron gates and along a beautiful drive to a 50-roomed palace, dripping with bling everywhere.

'My!', says the Indian. 'How did you afford all this?'

The African replies with a wink:

'100 per cent!!'

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by Tony Bennett on 09.06.13 15:43

@Snifferdog wrote:Some black older people who remember South Africa before ANC rule mention how they always had meat for the pot...
Apartheid was undoubtedly wrong in principle and discrimnatory - but, despite apartheid, before ANC rule there was always a vast stream of migrants from black-majority countries trying to get into South Africa - because the living conditions there were much better

ETA: A song sung by the McCalmans about life in pre-ANC South Africa, with references to Sharpeville and Soweto. The hope for the future comes out in the song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSAqthRUFzk

but maybe, except for the few, those hopes are being dashed

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by PeterMac on 09.06.13 15:51

Apartheid was wrong (?)
But look at Britain. Immigrant populations settle in small areas, open their own shops and demand their own schools and do not mix with anyone else.
This is surely nothing more than a self imposed apartheid.
Where is the evidence, anywhere that people from disparate cultures, with different languages, different rates of development, different attitudes to work and reward can every integrate into a rainbow nation.

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by jozi on 09.06.13 16:01

@Snifferdog wrote:You are correct Aquila. I had not really wanted to post my thoughts re South Africa because most people are just not interested what happens here in this country - also not really understanding the intricacies of how it really was/is as it was never reported correctly and honestly on the telly and newspapers. (such as the Mccann story is reported on).
There is no rainbow nation, there never was and never will be. Purely because of differences in black and white culture. An inborn culmination of ones ancestors beliefs, values and ideals passed down from one generation to the next - no wishful thinking can ever change this fact. This is a natural racism evident in any country where immigrants do not assimilate an instead form their own communities and maintain it by choice and their mutual culture.
I am quite happy for black South Africans to practice their culture but I do not want to be forced to partake in it. Each to his own. This is why we had apartheid in the first place. Apartheid means separate - as in separate development.
Each tribe was given vast areas of land where they had mainly settled. There were many whites who were established in these areas with towns businesses and farms. These people were paid out for their properties and had to move, their dams farms houses towns etc being Given over to the various tribes. Some were vast farms (such as belonged to a relative of mine) but all these established fell into ruin without exception, the towns were soon in ruins too as also the infrastructure and equipment donated by the Nationalist government at the time. (As has now happened to the many farms in SA handed over recently). Blacks with a permanent residence in South Africa did not any pay tax yet hospitals, universities schools etc were built/maintained for them out of white tax payers money. (There was also no vat in those days). It was the 'evil' and wrongfully vilified Prime Minister Vervoed wot dunnit for them! Vervoed had good relations with the various tribal leaders of that time. He was subsequently murdered before he could introduce new tax laws which would force the big mining companies to such as Anglo American to pay more tax so that individual taxes could be reduced. Then began the successful campaign to demonise Vervoed who was actually a very good well loved (by most) and honourable person.
It should be mentioned that during apartheid the South African black population burgeoned from a few thousand into the many millions. They were not hunted down, exterminated and wiped off the planet as happened to many indigenous populations in other parts of the world. In contrast black South Africans were provided with the tools to be educated at their own pace - in schools and universities surrounded by their own culture and language - cared for in hospitals when they were sick - had houses built for them also with white taxpayer money. Needless to say South African whites have experienced no such considerations.
It certainly suited big business to have black rule in South Africa so they could rape the country for bribes all round. The terrorist ANC(mostly from the Xhoza tribe) was chosen instead of the more moderate Inkatha Freedom Party (mainly of the Zulu tribe). Perhaps because the ANC was headed by more corruptible people.
Certainly their Quattro training camp was a hellish place where the ANC practiced unspeakable cruelty on their own. There is enough material to read on the net about it and other other camps.
The ANC and PAC terrorist organisations singlehandedly encouraged the destruction of schools which were burnt an pillaged. People who were thought of as informers in the townships were necklaced by having a tyre put around their neck, petrol poured over them and down their throats and set alight whilst being stoned to death in a kind of community project style with kids as young as eight years old and mothers with babies on their backs joining in the fray. Things have simmered down since then, but there is still much barbaric behaviour evidenced by the murder sometimes in the most brutal way of whites and immigrant blacks who are thought to be stealing jobs. Such is the divide between the races. (I have not included the coloured community in this post which have been somewhat sidelined under black rule and have a different culture).
Some black older people who remember South Africa before ANC rule mention how they always had meat for the pot and how the children used to be obedient dutiful and have respect for their elders which is hardly the case anymore. Inflation/economic depression taken into account everybody is worse off these days in South Africa ' except the Fat Cats sucking up everything and leaving nothing for the poor.
Our excellent world class government hospitals schools and transport amongst others has fallen apart Woe betide you if you do not have a hospital plan and land up in a guvvie hospital. It will be a bit like playing Russian roulette.
As for Mandela - he was a terrorist prepared to blow up people. He knew about the ANC death camps where cadres went for so called training some who were raped tortured and killed in the most brutal fashion. Whilst he was president he liked to join in singing Kill the Farmer Kill the Boer with his good friends Joe Slovo et al. He has become an icon and this he does not deserve as did Jimmy Savile was not worthy of his accolades.

Just adding: Yes you are correct about the vicious brutal slaughter of whites in the country. Farmers but also some townspeople.

Excellent post Snifferdog.

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by aquila on 09.06.13 16:02

@Snifferdog wrote:You are correct Aquila. I had not really wanted to post my thoughts re South Africa because most people are just not interested what happens here in this country - also not really understanding the intricacies of how it really was/is as it was never reported correctly and honestly on the telly and newspapers. (such as the Mccann story is reported on).
There is no rainbow nation, there never was and never will be. Purely because of differences in black and white culture. An inborn culmination of ones ancestors beliefs, values and ideals passed down from one generation to the next - no wishful thinking can ever change this fact. This is a natural racism evident in any country where immigrants do not assimilate an instead form their own communities and maintain it by choice and their mutual culture.
I am quite happy for black South Africans to practice their culture but I do not want to be forced to partake in it. Each to his own. This is why we had apartheid in the first place. Apartheid means separate - as in separate development.
Each tribe was given vast areas of land where they had mainly settled. There were many whites who were established in these areas with towns businesses and farms. These people were paid out for their properties and had to move, their dams farms houses towns etc being Given over to the various tribes. Some were vast farms (such as belonged to a relative of mine) but all these established fell into ruin without exception, the towns were soon in ruins too as also the infrastructure and equipment donated by the Nationalist government at the time. (As has now happened to the many farms in SA handed over recently). Blacks with a permanent residence in South Africa did not any pay tax yet hospitals, universities schools etc were built/maintained for them out of white tax payers money. (There was also no vat in those days). It was the 'evil' and wrongfully vilified Prime Minister Vervoed wot dunnit for them! Vervoed had good relations with the various tribal leaders of that time. He was subsequently murdered before he could introduce new tax laws which would force the big mining companies to such as Anglo American to pay more tax so that individual taxes could be reduced. Then began the successful campaign to demonise Vervoed who was actually a very good well loved (by most) and honourable person.
It should be mentioned that during apartheid the South African black population burgeoned from a few thousand into the many millions. They were not hunted down, exterminated and wiped off the planet as happened to many indigenous populations in other parts of the world. In contrast black South Africans were provided with the tools to be educated at their own pace - in schools and universities surrounded by their own culture and language - cared for in hospitals when they were sick - had houses built for them also with white taxpayer money. Needless to say South African whites have experienced no such considerations.
It certainly suited big business to have black rule in South Africa so they could rape the country for bribes all round. The terrorist ANC(mostly from the Xhoza tribe) was chosen instead of the more moderate Inkatha Freedom Party (mainly of the Zulu tribe). Perhaps because the ANC was headed by more corruptible people.
Certainly their Quattro training camp was a hellish place where the ANC practiced unspeakable cruelty on their own. There is enough material to read on the net about it and other other camps.
The ANC and PAC terrorist organisations singlehandedly encouraged the destruction of schools which were burnt an pillaged. People who were thought of as informers in the townships were necklaced by having a tyre put around their neck, petrol poured over them and down their throats and set alight whilst being stoned to death in a kind of community project style with kids as young as eight years old and mothers with babies on their backs joining in the fray. Things have simmered down since then, but there is still much barbaric behaviour evidenced by the murder sometimes in the most brutal way of whites and immigrant blacks who are thought to be stealing jobs. Such is the divide between the races. (I have not included the coloured community in this post which have been somewhat sidelined under black rule and have a different culture).
Some black older people who remember South Africa before ANC rule mention how they always had meat for the pot and how the children used to be obedient dutiful and have respect for their elders which is hardly the case anymore. Inflation/economic depression taken into account everybody is worse off these days in South Africa ' except the Fat Cats sucking up everything and leaving nothing for the poor.
Our excellent world class government hospitals schools and transport amongst others has fallen apart Woe betide you if you do not have a hospital plan and land up in a guvvie hospital. It will be a bit like playing Russian roulette.
As for Mandela - he was a terrorist prepared to blow up people. He knew about the ANC death camps where cadres went for so called training some who were raped tortured and killed in the most brutal fashion. Whilst he was president he liked to join in singing Kill the Farmer Kill the Boer with his good friends Joe Slovo et al. He has become an icon and this he does not deserve as did Jimmy Savile was not worthy of his accolades.

Just adding: Yes you are correct about the vicious brutal slaughter of whites in the country. Farmers but also some townspeople.

People are interested in South Africa. I looked at an article in the Daily Mail this morning re Mandela's illness and I was heartened to find that a lot of people consider him to have been a terrorist. Some people would call him a freedom fighter no doubt but his country has no freedom to show for it. The black government have placed them in chains.

It's interesting that you speak of the choice of the Xhoza tribe. They are indeed a feisty and beligerent tribe easily whooped up into a frenzy by anyone who promises them things and tells them it's all the white man's fault.

Necklacing...well Winnie Mandela would know about that even after Mandela's statesmanship.

Mandela's own family are already fighting over his money in public and he's not dead.

I read the South African newspapers everyday. I don't know of a single person who has lived in South Africa who wouldn't return if the violence would end. I am one of them. As much as I love England there is something so wonderful about South Africa that draws anyone who has lived there - and it's not just about the sunshine.

Thank you for your post. Let's keep it going on how it is to live in South Africa before the shite Mandela stuff hits the BBC and gets twisted into the usual 'watch with mother' fairytale.


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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by Snifferdog on 09.06.13 16:15

Here is a well written article and link by Dan Roodt written for Praag who sums it up better than I ever could.

http://praag.org/?p=4270
‘Apartheid’ as metonym for Afrikaners
April 16, 2013 - Columns, Dan Roodt - Tagged: Afrikaners, Anglo-Boer war, apartheid, column, Dan Roodt, Lord Milner, metonym, South Africa
In a multiethnic society like South Africa, groups will always blame each other for their lack of wealth, education, political power, and so on. In this respect, SA is no different to Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, Belgium or anywhere else.

Apartheid is a national obessession. To some extent it has imparted some sort of inverse identity to the so-called New South Africa where people wonder whether we are really the 51st state of the USA, the southern province of Zimbabwe or part of the British Empire. Of course, one of the first steps after 27 April 1994 was to rejoin the Commonwealth so in a sense that made many people feel “whole” again.

Apartheid is, however, also a metonym. Being an Afrikaans word, sometimes the only Afrikaans word that many people know, it stands for “Afrikaners”. A statement like “apartheid destroyed black wealth” decodes as “Afrikaners destroyed black wealth”. The massive participation of Afrikaners in education between 1948 and 1994, mainly because the angelic English owned all the mines and industries, may therefore be seen as “de-educating South Africa”. At one point 50% of teachers in English-language white schools were also Afrikaners. Soon these “deprived” Engelse will be blaming Afrikaners for not having won more Nobel prizes for science, not having founded Google or Microsoft or not inventing the Ipod. Instead, they were “forced” to read Somer by CM van den Heever or some Afrikaans poetry in their second-language class, which “dehumanised” them.

Of course, Afrikaner teachers also taught millions of people science and mathematics, but as some minister once said: “Verwoerd made it too difficult, because he was a racist.” Fortunately Kader Asmal introduced “mathematical literacy” which is is the non-racist version.

As Paul Berkowitz so eloquently argues in How do you solve a problem like Apartheid?: “In the end, perception usually trumps truth.” Someone will have to be blamed for the fact that the average black South African does not enjoy the same standard of living as the average citizen of Luxembourg or Norway. Nor does the average white, of course, but that is besides the point.

Apartheid, like Satan, still lurks within dark corners of South Africa, usually on farms or in Afrikaans schools or within the homes of poorer Afrikaners living on smallholdings such as in Muldersdrift or Kameeldrif.

Within the metonymic logic of South African ethnic discourse, eliminating apartheid is easy: you have just have to eliminate Afrikaners. This can be done in three ways: putting them all on a boat to Australia, assimilating them completely, or by killing them en masse. Or maybe one by one, family by family.

In Muldersdrift, Kameeldrif, on farms and even in the cities, the clarion call to “eliminate the last vestiges of apartheid” is being responded to with vicious enthusiasm. Remember that Lord Milner or one of his contemporaries also used those terms on the eve of the Anglo-Boer War: “eliminating the last vestiges of Afrikanerism from South Africa”. Afterwards 500 000 British soldiers and 100 000 armed blacks put the Boer women and children in concentration camps and burned everything to the ground, homes, barns, even churches. In fact, the British were the only Western people to have burnt churches in the modern era.

According to historians, it took Germany 120 years to recover from the Thirty Years War (1618-1648) when a similar “scorched earth policy” had been followed on its soil. However, no-one – least of all the omniscient apartheid theorists of today – has ever argued that the Anglo-Boer had any economic effect whatsoever. On the contrary, the economic effect is generally seen as positive, in having put control of the economy firmly in English hands. Confiscated Boer livestock and grain were sold to the British army by English companies whose names have changed since, some of which are today listed on the JSE. “Apartheid capital” therefore metamorphosed into “English entrepreneurial flair”. This was the first form of BEE, or British Economic Empowerment. Arguably, the current form of BEE still benefits bankers and stockbrokers more than it does blacks, because these rake in huge fees for enriching a few high-profile blacks.

After the war, irate letter writers from Natal castigated Milner and others for not having killed all the Boers and “cleansing the country for England”. That would have been one way of nipping apartheid in the bud, as it were.

But it is never too late and we can all agree that apartheid is being eliminated every day, whether metaphorically by erasing Afrikaans names of towns or streets, or physically by terminating the bearers of the disease. There is an uncanny resemblance between the gentlemanly style of the British in 1900-1902 and the methods of the current crop of freedom fighters, who appreciate that children, especially girl children, represent the next generation and it therefore makes sense to eliminate them first. The names of Alyssa Botha and Danielle Esterhuizen come to mind, but there are many others too.


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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by aquila on 09.06.13 16:16

@jozi wrote:
@Snifferdog wrote:You are correct Aquila. I had not really wanted to post my thoughts re South Africa because most people are just not interested what happens here in this country - also not really understanding the intricacies of how it really was/is as it was never reported correctly and honestly on the telly and newspapers. (such as the Mccann story is reported on).
There is no rainbow nation, there never was and never will be. Purely because of differences in black and white culture. An inborn culmination of ones ancestors beliefs, values and ideals passed down from one generation to the next - no wishful thinking can ever change this fact. This is a natural racism evident in any country where immigrants do not assimilate an instead form their own communities and maintain it by choice and their mutual culture.
I am quite happy for black South Africans to practice their culture but I do not want to be forced to partake in it. Each to his own. This is why we had apartheid in the first place. Apartheid means separate - as in separate development.
Each tribe was given vast areas of land where they had mainly settled. There were many whites who were established in these areas with towns businesses and farms. These people were paid out for their properties and had to move, their dams farms houses towns etc being Given over to the various tribes. Some were vast farms (such as belonged to a relative of mine) but all these established fell into ruin without exception, the towns were soon in ruins too as also the infrastructure and equipment donated by the Nationalist government at the time. (As has now happened to the many farms in SA handed over recently). Blacks with a permanent residence in South Africa did not any pay tax yet hospitals, universities schools etc were built/maintained for them out of white tax payers money. (There was also no vat in those days). It was the 'evil' and wrongfully vilified Prime Minister Vervoed wot dunnit for them! Vervoed had good relations with the various tribal leaders of that time. He was subsequently murdered before he could introduce new tax laws which would force the big mining companies to such as Anglo American to pay more tax so that individual taxes could be reduced. Then began the successful campaign to demonise Vervoed who was actually a very good well loved (by most) and honourable person.
It should be mentioned that during apartheid the South African black population burgeoned from a few thousand into the many millions. They were not hunted down, exterminated and wiped off the planet as happened to many indigenous populations in other parts of the world. In contrast black South Africans were provided with the tools to be educated at their own pace - in schools and universities surrounded by their own culture and language - cared for in hospitals when they were sick - had houses built for them also with white taxpayer money. Needless to say South African whites have experienced no such considerations.
It certainly suited big business to have black rule in South Africa so they could rape the country for bribes all round. The terrorist ANC(mostly from the Xhoza tribe) was chosen instead of the more moderate Inkatha Freedom Party (mainly of the Zulu tribe). Perhaps because the ANC was headed by more corruptible people.
Certainly their Quattro training camp was a hellish place where the ANC practiced unspeakable cruelty on their own. There is enough material to read on the net about it and other other camps.
The ANC and PAC terrorist organisations singlehandedly encouraged the destruction of schools which were burnt an pillaged. People who were thought of as informers in the townships were necklaced by having a tyre put around their neck, petrol poured over them and down their throats and set alight whilst being stoned to death in a kind of community project style with kids as young as eight years old and mothers with babies on their backs joining in the fray. Things have simmered down since then, but there is still much barbaric behaviour evidenced by the murder sometimes in the most brutal way of whites and immigrant blacks who are thought to be stealing jobs. Such is the divide between the races. (I have not included the coloured community in this post which have been somewhat sidelined under black rule and have a different culture).
Some black older people who remember South Africa before ANC rule mention how they always had meat for the pot and how the children used to be obedient dutiful and have respect for their elders which is hardly the case anymore. Inflation/economic depression taken into account everybody is worse off these days in South Africa ' except the Fat Cats sucking up everything and leaving nothing for the poor.
Our excellent world class government hospitals schools and transport amongst others has fallen apart Woe betide you if you do not have a hospital plan and land up in a guvvie hospital. It will be a bit like playing Russian roulette.
As for Mandela - he was a terrorist prepared to blow up people. He knew about the ANC death camps where cadres went for so called training some who were raped tortured and killed in the most brutal fashion. Whilst he was president he liked to join in singing Kill the Farmer Kill the Boer with his good friends Joe Slovo et al. He has become an icon and this he does not deserve as did Jimmy Savile was not worthy of his accolades.

Just adding: Yes you are correct about the vicious brutal slaughter of whites in the country. Farmers but also some townspeople.

Excellent post Snifferdog.

Seconded.

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by Snifferdog on 09.06.13 16:53

@aquila wrote:
@Snifferdog wrote:You are correct Aquila. I had not really wanted to post my thoughts re South Africa because most people are just not interested what happens here in this country - also not really understanding the intricacies of how it really was/is as it was never reported correctly and honestly on the telly and newspapers. (such as the Mccann story is reported on).
There is no rainbow nation, there never was and never will be. Purely because of differences in black and white culture. An inborn culmination of ones ancestors beliefs, values and ideals passed down from one generation to the next - no wishful thinking can ever change this fact. This is a natural racism evident in any country where immigrants do not assimilate an instead form their own communities and maintain it by choice and their mutual culture.
I am quite happy for black South Africans to practice their culture but I do not want to be forced to partake in it. Each to his own. This is why we had apartheid in the first place. Apartheid means separate - as in separate development.
Each tribe was given vast areas of land where they had mainly settled. There were many whites who were established in these areas with towns businesses and farms. These people were paid out for their properties and had to move, their dams farms houses towns etc being Given over to the various tribes. Some were vast farms (such as belonged to a relative of mine) but all these established fell into ruin without exception, the towns were soon in ruins too as also the infrastructure and equipment donated by the Nationalist government at the time. (As has now happened to the many farms in SA handed over recently). Blacks with a permanent residence in South Africa did not any pay tax yet hospitals, universities schools etc were built/maintained for them out of white tax payers money. (There was also no vat in those days). It was the 'evil' and wrongfully vilified Prime Minister Vervoed wot dunnit for them! Vervoed had good relations with the various tribal leaders of that time. He was subsequently murdered before he could introduce new tax laws which would force the big mining companies to such as Anglo American to pay more tax so that individual taxes could be reduced. Then began the successful campaign to demonise Vervoed who was actually a very good well loved (by most) and honourable person.
It should be mentioned that during apartheid the South African black population burgeoned from a few thousand into the many millions. They were not hunted down, exterminated and wiped off the planet as happened to many indigenous populations in other parts of the world. In contrast black South Africans were provided with the tools to be educated at their own pace - in schools and universities surrounded by their own culture and language - cared for in hospitals when they were sick - had houses built for them also with white taxpayer money. Needless to say South African whites have experienced no such considerations.
It certainly suited big business to have black rule in South Africa so they could rape the country for bribes all round. The terrorist ANC(mostly from the Xhoza tribe) was chosen instead of the more moderate Inkatha Freedom Party (mainly of the Zulu tribe). Perhaps because the ANC was headed by more corruptible people.
Certainly their Quattro training camp was a hellish place where the ANC practiced unspeakable cruelty on their own. There is enough material to read on the net about it and other other camps.
The ANC and PAC terrorist organisations singlehandedly encouraged the destruction of schools which were burnt an pillaged. People who were thought of as informers in the townships were necklaced by having a tyre put around their neck, petrol poured over them and down their throats and set alight whilst being stoned to death in a kind of community project style with kids as young as eight years old and mothers with babies on their backs joining in the fray. Things have simmered down since then, but there is still much barbaric behaviour evidenced by the murder sometimes in the most brutal way of whites and immigrant blacks who are thought to be stealing jobs. Such is the divide between the races. (I have not included the coloured community in this post which have been somewhat sidelined under black rule and have a different culture).
Some black older people who remember South Africa before ANC rule mention how they always had meat for the pot and how the children used to be obedient dutiful and have respect for their elders which is hardly the case anymore. Inflation/economic depression taken into account everybody is worse off these days in South Africa ' except the Fat Cats sucking up everything and leaving nothing for the poor.
Our excellent world class government hospitals schools and transport amongst others has fallen apart Woe betide you if you do not have a hospital plan and land up in a guvvie hospital. It will be a bit like playing Russian roulette.
As for Mandela - he was a terrorist prepared to blow up people. He knew about the ANC death camps where cadres went for so called training some who were raped tortured and killed in the most brutal fashion. Whilst he was president he liked to join in singing Kill the Farmer Kill the Boer with his good friends Joe Slovo et al. He has become an icon and this he does not deserve as did Jimmy Savile was not worthy of his accolades.

Just adding: Yes you are correct about the vicious brutal slaughter of whites in the country. Farmers but also some townspeople.

People are interested in South Africa. I looked at an article in the Daily Mail this morning re Mandela's illness and I was heartened to find that a lot of people consider him to have been a terrorist. Some people would call him a freedom fighter no doubt but his country has no freedom to show for it. The black government have placed them in chains.

It's interesting that you speak of the choice of the Xhoza tribe. They are indeed a feisty and beligerent tribe easily whooped up into a frenzy by anyone who promises them things and tells them it's all the white man's fault.

Necklacing...well Winnie Mandela would know about that even after Mandela's statesmanship.

Mandela's own family are already fighting over his money in public and he's not dead.

I read the South African newspapers everyday. I don't know of a single person who has lived in South Africa who wouldn't return if the violence would end. I am one of them. As much as I love England there is something so wonderful about South Africa that draws anyone who has lived there - and it's not just about the sunshine.

Thank you for your post. Let's keep it going on how it is to live in South Africa before the shite Mandela stuff hits the BBC and gets twisted into the usual 'watch with mother' fairytale.


Yes Aquila South Africa is a very special place (if I may say so myself) roses I did not appreciate the wonderful gift of growing up in Cape Town, free of the fear of crime where we could walk and play in the streets . We as children had an african nanny which I loved to bits as did she love us. (I come from a very large family). Contrary to belief most families had very good cordial relations with people of other races though naturally one always gets exceptions. We just did not intermarry and socialise together being of very different cultures and norms.
Cape Town had a kind of villagey vibe as it was before it became a popular tourist destination. In fact we grew up very protected with tv being banned as was all gambling and pornography of any kind. Although nothing can be perfect in this world we grew up with biblical principals. Stealing was virtually unheard of never mind murder. (Unlike today and I am not singling out blacks here). Though there may have been others there was only one murder that I remember growing up and it hit the headlines for ages. It was called the scissors murder and committed by Marlene Lehnberg.
Government meetings were begun with prayers. Anathema for the satanists waiting to bring down and sully the country.
Aquila, perhaps feeling you had whilst living here were the remnants of a caring beautiful healthy society that once was and still evident in the individuals you met and socialised with. I do also know that Jo'burgers are some of the most friendly welcoming people on this earth.
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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by jozi on 09.06.13 17:07

It wasn't just blacks that were against apartheid,lots of whites also fought for freedom, unfortunately these are the forgotten voices in this corrupt ANC government as they only portray themselves as the only freedom fighters ?Well stuff you ANC you are the real racists in this land of the Rainbow Nation ??? Keeping apartheid alive and kicking serves the ANC well, once the poor of this nation realize its not ever ever coming back and they are FREE to vote for anyone who will hear them and look out for them, then we will see this rainbow nation come together and vote this corrupt government out and our Country will be better off for everyone !!!

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by Snifferdog on 09.06.13 17:44

Aquila said: I read the South African newspapers everyday. I don't know of a single person who has lived in South Africa who wouldn't return if the violence would end. I am one of them.

The crime and violence are an ever present threat and even so I do not think I shall ever go and live elsewhere. When we had our spate of robberies our beautiful dog had just died and he was much feared and was known as 'Die Leeu' which means 'The Lion'. He was very protective yet loving and gentle to family and friends. He was a cross Boerbul x German Shepard.
We have since the robberies added a rather robust Boerbul to the family nicknamed Miss Piggy because she is so... well...Miss Piggy! - and recently a brother and sister pair of Boerbul x Rottweiler which are almost a year old - pictured in my atavar. (Miss Piggy having moved out of photo range).
Since our new additions to the family we have had absolutely no trouble and I must admit that our doors are open again as they always were whilst Die Leeu was alive.


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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by Guest on 09.06.13 19:35

How very moving, Snifferdog. For more than one reason ...

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by Snifferdog on 09.06.13 19:44

Thank you Chatelaine from one dawg lover to another smilie friends

Edited to add this from another post by Aquila:

Snifferdog I love your new avatar. Those are the dogs needed on a plot/property in South Africa - it's a shame they are often poisoned or shot to get into a property. People are indeed interested in South Africa and are not all lovers of Madiba as I noticed in the comments of the newspapers today. South Africa is on meltdown and if no-one believes this beautiful country is at crisis point then they are in need of a read.

Thank you Aquila. I like to keep my dogs in at night but when they smell the porcupine they insist on going outside to investigate! Because dogs are carnivores we dont feed them kibbles but feed our dogs a plentiful raw meat diet, so they are well fed and hopefully will not be tempted to take poisoned food. Apart from poisoning the dogs snares are also laid illegally on properties to catch buck. Although we go snare hunting to remove them it is very difficult to spot them because of the dense bush and difficult terrain in some areas. We have lost numerous dogs to snares. Some have been lucky and have not pulled at whilst caught, or have bitten through the wire. Others we have found by the dog barking which helps indicate where they are. Our present dogs (a trait of the Boerbul breed), do not seem to wander far from the house and for this I am very relieved.




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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by Guest on 09.06.13 20:11


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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by littlepixie on 09.06.13 20:39

Without wishing to derail this thread I just wanted to answer where someone said where would you find a Rainbow Nation. My answer to that is in any Kingdom Hall all over the world. I have seen it with my own eyes. When I first went to a Convention I couldn't get over all the different races sitting together sharing their food. There are 8 million witnesses in virtually every Country of the World all living by the same morals and principles and sharing the same hope. You can walk into any Hall in any Country, be of any race or colour and you will be treated and loved the same as the next person. Yes, you will get the odd one who is not true or whose faith is weak, but the vast majority make real efforts to love one another. I have read about sworn enemies who fought for one side or another in wars coming together and loving one another because they realised they loved God, not Countries, flags or Governments and they put their whole trust and hope in him.
When people live by Bible Principles there is no colour, no-one elevated above another, all men are the same. Man will dominate Man to his injury, and he has and still does - for now.

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by Snifferdog on 09.06.13 21:00

@littlepixie wrote:Without wishing to derail this thread I just wanted to answer where someone said where would you find a Rainbow Nation. My answer to that is in any Kingdom Hall all over the world. I have seen it with my own eyes. When I first went to a Convention I couldn't get over all the different races sitting together sharing their food. There are 8 million witnesses in virtually every Country of the World all living by the same morals and principles and sharing the same hope. You can walk into any Hall in any Country, be of any race or colour and you will be treated and loved the same as the next person. Yes, you will get the odd one who is not true or whose faith is weak, but the vast majority make real efforts to love one another. I have read about sworn enemies who fought for one side or another in wars coming together and loving one another because they realised they loved God, not Countries, flags or Governments and they put their whole trust and hope in him.
When people live by Bible Principles there is no colour, no-one elevated above another, all men are the same. Man will dominate Man to his injury, and he has and still does - for now.
Hi littlepixie. There are many events where people of different races get together as you say in any Kingdom Hall. Also in many other churches such as the Catholic church, where in South Africa people of different races have been attending the same services even before the ANC. People go home after attending a church service and do not necessarily mix besides get togethers for church functions fetes and suchlike. I see that people mainly instinctively stick to those of their own culture whatever part of the rainbow they are represented by. It should not be a question of dominance but live and let live. God created people of different cultures and race, and I am happy to respect that and for them to be different from my own european one, and do not wish to impinge my culture on another or vice versa. To each his own is how I like it and how it should be IMO.

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by aiyoyo on 10.06.13 5:05

@littlepixie wrote:Without wishing to derail this thread I just wanted to answer where someone said where would you find a Rainbow Nation. My answer to that is in any Kingdom Hall all over the world. I have seen it with my own eyes. When I first went to a Convention I couldn't get over all the different races sitting together sharing their food. There are 8 million witnesses in virtually every Country of the World all living by the same morals and principles and sharing the same hope. You can walk into any Hall in any Country, be of any race or colour and you will be treated and loved the same as the next person. Yes, you will get the odd one who is not true or whose faith is weak, but the vast majority make real efforts to love one another. I have read about sworn enemies who fought for one side or another in wars coming together and loving one another because they realised they loved God, not Countries, flags or Governments and they put their whole trust and hope in him.
When people live by Bible Principles there is no colour, no-one elevated above another, all men are the same. Man will dominate Man to his injury, and he has and still does - for now.

Sad to say people in church behave impeccably like they are all Citizens of Heaven without divide irrespective of race and culture, united in their belief.
Yet once out of church and back to their own community, environment and culture, their comportment is a different story.
Prejudice, discrimination and jealousy is rife in real live issues and that is not going to change even if mother earth disintegrates.
That is a fact.

In other words people (most anyway) are simply innately hypocrites - one behavior in Church and another behavior outside church.
Of course there are people who live by the bible rigorously but those are in the very minority.

Men cant help that because Self before God is inherent in the human's natural made up; and going to church does not change that. They merely watch their comportment in holy place.

Don't mean to offend, just my observation.


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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by PeterMac on 10.06.13 8:18

@PeterMac wrote:Apartheid was wrong (?)
But look at Britain. Immigrant populations settle in small areas, open their own shops and demand their own schools and do not mix with anyone else.
This is surely nothing more than a self imposed apartheid.
Where is the evidence, anywhere that people from disparate cultures, with different languages, different rates of development, different attitudes to work and reward can every integrate into a rainbow nation.
Sorry to quote my own post but have a look at the Darul Uloom school web site.
http://www.darululoomlondon.co.uk/index.html
Islamic Curriculum
The Islamic religious studies syllabus includes:

Hifz: (The memorization of the glorious Quran)
This course concerns with the memorising of the Holy Qur’an by heart. The basic requirement for this course is that the student is expected to recite the Qur’an fluently and properly implementing the rules, and will have already completed reading the Qur'an prior to attending Darul Uloom (Average duration of the course is three years).

Islamic Theology/Islamic Scholarship:
This course includes the teaching of:
Arabic Grammar - (Surf/Nahwa, Lughat)
Fiqh- (Islamic Jurisprudence)
Tafseer:- (The translation of Qur`an with full explanation-Jalalain (Interpretation) WHO GIVES THIS EXPLANATION ? ? ?
Ahadith:- Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Daud, Nasai, Tahawi, Mishkat.
AqaaÂ’id:- Religious beliefs The teaching is done by experienced Ulema-e-kiraam in each branch of studies. The full course is completed in seven years.
Tajweed:- This faculty of the holy Qur’an is taught with correct ‘makharij’ (Pronunciation) for recitation of Qur’an properly with reference to the roots of human organs of speech (lips, tongue, teeth and throat) and produce utterances of the Arabic letters as it was revealed to the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him).
2a: Anjuman (Educational Forums) In this faculty of studies, the students are encouraged and taught every Saturday for 1Å“ hours on how to give lectures, speeches, under the supervision of the religious scholars.

Time Table
Islamic Religious Studies 8.00am - 12.30pm
Lunch 12.30pm - 1.15pm
Zohar Salaat 1.15pm - 1.30pm
National Curriculum 1.30pm - 4.45pm
Recreational activities 4.45pm - 6.00pm
Revision Time 6.30pm - 8.00pm
Learning group seminars 8.00pm - 8.30pm
Dinner 8.30pm

In what sense are these people being taught to integrate into a rainbow nation ? This is self imposed apartheid.
Separate development.
Different language, different religion, different clothing, different standards, and above all keeping themselves away from the 'Kafir'.

It goes without saying that it is a boy's only school !

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Re: What happens to South Africa when Mandela dies?

Post by Guest on 10.06.13 8:48

@PeterMac wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:Apartheid was wrong (?)
But look at Britain. Immigrant populations settle in small areas, open their own shops and demand their own schools and do not mix with anyone else.
This is surely nothing more than a self imposed apartheid.
Where is the evidence, anywhere that people from disparate cultures, with different languages, different rates of development, different attitudes to work and reward can every integrate into a rainbow nation.
Sorry to quote my own post but have a look at the Darul Uloom school web site.
http://www.darululoomlondon.co.uk/index.html
Islamic Curriculum
The Islamic religious studies syllabus includes:

Hifz: (The memorization of the glorious Quran)
This course concerns with the memorising of the Holy Qur’an by heart. The basic requirement for this course is that the student is expected to recite the Qur’an fluently and properly implementing the rules, and will have already completed reading the Qur'an prior to attending Darul Uloom (Average duration of the course is three years).

Islamic Theology/Islamic Scholarship:
This course includes the teaching of:
Arabic Grammar - (Surf/Nahwa, Lughat)
Fiqh- (Islamic Jurisprudence)
Tafseer:- (The translation of Qur`an with full explanation-Jalalain (Interpretation) WHO GIVES THIS EXPLANATION ? ? ?
Ahadith:- Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Daud, Nasai, Tahawi, Mishkat.
AqaaÂ’id:- Religious beliefs The teaching is done by experienced Ulema-e-kiraam in each branch of studies. The full course is completed in seven years.
Tajweed:- This faculty of the holy Qur’an is taught with correct ‘makharij’ (Pronunciation) for recitation of Qur’an properly with reference to the roots of human organs of speech (lips, tongue, teeth and throat) and produce utterances of the Arabic letters as it was revealed to the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him).
2a: Anjuman (Educational Forums) In this faculty of studies, the students are encouraged and taught every Saturday for 1Å“ hours on how to give lectures, speeches, under the supervision of the religious scholars.

Time Table
Islamic Religious Studies 8.00am - 12.30pm
Lunch 12.30pm - 1.15pm
Zohar Salaat 1.15pm - 1.30pm
National Curriculum 1.30pm - 4.45pm
Recreational activities 4.45pm - 6.00pm
Revision Time 6.30pm - 8.00pm
Learning group seminars 8.00pm - 8.30pm
Dinner 8.30pm

In what sense are these people being taught to integrate into a rainbow nation ? This is self imposed apartheid.
Separate development.
Different language, different religion, different clothing, different standards, and above all keeping themselves away from the 'Kafir'.

It goes without saying that it is a boy's only school !

Snipped from Sky News

The £3,000-a-year boarding school was established in 1988 with the purpose of producing "great scholars and Huffaz (people who have memorised the Koran) to preserve and transmit the eternal message of Allah

Agree with all your comment's PeterMac. No offence to anyone, but I have to say we will soon be in the minority in "England's Green and Pleasant Land"


London Islamic School Fire: Four Arrested


The teenagers were arrested on suspicion of arson on Sunday night following a fire at the Darul Uloom Islamic boarding school


http://news.sky.com/story/1101539/london-islamic-school-fire-four-arrested

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