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Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.11.13 19:48

Just bringing to the forum another very important angle on this story, from nearly a year ago, about South Wales Police - who have 'form' for covering up child abuse:

+++++++++++++++++++++++


Lost Prophets Singer Ian Watkins Arrest 'May Not Have Been Quick Enough'

PA/Huffington Post UK | Posted: 07/02/2013 11:55 GMT | Updated: 07/02/2013 13:43 GMT


Police who arrested Lost Prophets singer Ian Watkins over an alleged plot to rape a baby are under investigation over whether they acted quickly enough.

The police watchdog is looking at whether South Wales Police "failed to take appropriate and timely action" over information received about the 35-year-old vocalist.

]PIC: Ian Watkins is facing allegations of plotting to rape a child]

Watkins, whose band have sold more than 3.5 million records worldwide, was arrested in December with two women.

He is accused of conspiring to rape a child under the age of 13 and five other sex abuse charges.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC)'s Tom Davies said: "We received a referral from South Wales Police on January 25, 2013 relating to Ian Watkins.

"Following a thorough assessment I have decided that we will carry out an independent investigation.

"Our investigation will determine whether or not South Wales Police failed to take appropriate and timely action in relation to information they were in receipt of in advance of Mr Watkins's subsequent arrest.

"We are aware of four forces having provided South Wales Police with information but, as criminal proceedings are active, it would be inappropriate to publish further information at this time."

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by PeterMac on 26.11.13 20:34

@aquila wrote:
I wish people would stop trying to 'cure' paedophiles and start punishing them by removing them from society and making them do hard labour.
In the past people have said the same thing about witches, (England and Salem) Catholics ( England), Protestants (England), Anabaptists (Germany), Jews (Germany and almost everywhere else in Europe), homosexuals, (almost everywhere throughout recorded history), gypsies (Germany, though other countries too) non-believing communists (Stalinist USSR), the mentally ill (Germany) . . . .

I think we need to be very careful about saying that hard labour can "cure" these conditions, any more than cold baths or imprisonment can "cure' epilepsy. Both have been tried.
I doubt if Oscar Wilde was 'cured' by his two years of hard labour in Reading.
At Mauthausen procedires were carried out on Homosexuals to "cure" them. The people who conducted the 'experiments' found themselves on trial for their lives at Nuremberg.

Remove from society, of course. Immediately and for as long as the person is a threat to any other person. That is the justification for imprisonment, and probably the only valid one.
But then try to understand what leads one person to become degenerate and vile, but leaves another who has had the same influences to become 'normal'

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by aquila on 26.11.13 20:46

@PeterMac wrote:
@aquila wrote:
I wish people would stop trying to 'cure' paedophiles and start punishing them by removing them from society and making them do hard labour.
In the past people have said the same thing about witches, (England and Salem) Catholics ( England), Protestants (England), Anabaptists (Germany), Jews (Germany and almost everywhere else in Europe), homosexuals, (almost everywhere throughout recorded history),  gypsies (Germany, though other countries too) non-believing communists (Stalinist USSR), the mentally ill (Germany) . . . .

I think we need to be very careful about saying that hard labour can "cure" these conditions, any more than cold baths or imprisonment can "cure' epilepsy.  Both have been tried.
I doubt if Oscar Wilde was 'cured' by his two years of hard labour in Reading.
At Mauthausen procedires were carried out on Homosexuals to "cure" them.   The people who conducted the 'experiments' found themselves on trial for their lives at Nuremberg.

Remove from society, of course.  Immediately and for as long as the person is a threat to any other person.  That is the justification for imprisonment, and probably the only valid one.
But then try to understand what leads one person to become degenerate and vile, but leaves another who has had the same influences to become 'normal'
I said it can't be cured.

When an adult rapes a baby there is nothing more to be said as far as I'm concerned. I'm not interested in the adult. Stick that adult on a far away island. Send all the psychiatrists to the island, let the studies begin from that island. Send the church to minister on that island. I doubt you'll find professionals willing to study in such conditions.

Hard labour. These evil people who rape babies aren't physically disabled. Make them work to feed themselves.

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by PeterMac on 26.11.13 21:04

I take your point. It cannot be "cured" any more than homosexuality - or indeed heterosexuality - can be "cured".
But people of whatever persuasion, potential drug addicts, potential rapists, potential alcoholics, potential child molesters . . .
should no longer have the excuse of pleading that they could not help it.
That has become the catch-all excuse for lack of self control and restraint.

Personal responsibility should become the key.
A personal persuasion is not a matter of concern, until we let it become one.

People CAN wean themselves off alcohol - and many do
People CAN wean themselves off drugs - and many do
People CAN control their libidinous urges - and many do
People CAN sublimate their socially and legally unacceptable urges - and many do

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.11.13 21:25

@PeterMac wrote:People CAN wean themselves off alcohol - and many do
People CAN wean themselves off drugs - and many do
People CAN control their libidinous urges - and many do
People CAN sublimate their socially and legally unacceptable urges  - and many do
And in just the same way, homosexuals can give up the homosexual lifestyle, and develop heterosexual attachments, marry and have children. No-one is 'born' homosexual

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by notlongnow on 26.11.13 21:27

I'm guessing it's like telling hetro or gay/lesbians to stop having sex..it's not going to happen.
Chemical castration is the only answer i can see.

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Guest on 26.11.13 21:31

I hope that it isn't being suggested that anything involving consenting adults is on a level with what this man has done!

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Guest on 26.11.13 21:49

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:People CAN wean themselves off alcohol - and many do
People CAN wean themselves off drugs - and many do
People CAN control their libidinous urges - and many do
People CAN sublimate their socially and legally unacceptable urges  - and many do
And in just the same way, homosexuals can give up the homosexual lifestyle, and develop heterosexual attachments, marry and have children. No-one is 'born' homosexual
***
Well, a couple of years ago I read a study that in fact REAL homosexuality originates from the womb. I think it might have been in Dutch, but I'll see if I can find an English version. I do not resent homosexuality as it is, as NFWTD said, basically consensual. Peadophilia is a different chapter. One may have been borne with it, but practising is passing a drawn line. A dear old friend of mine, was one. He never, ever touched a child, though. What is much more alarming, is that there are many people on all walks of life, but especially the hyper upper ones, who are constantly looking for kicks and get whatever they want for their deviant and ever more demanding desires ...

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Hobs on 26.11.13 21:56

"Mr Watkins furiously denies all of the charges and allegations made. He intends to fight to the bitter end to clear his name. He wishes to thank the fans, family and friends for the constant love and support they have given and continue to give throughout this testing time."


No strong first person singular, past tense event specific reliable denial as in I did not rape those children, I did not sexually molest those children.

If he can't make a reliable denial, i can't say it for him





Instead we have an unreliable denial, so beloved of the guilty.




Not only does he deny all of the charges and allegations made, he furiously denies them, the qualifier "furiously" weakens the statements.

 He denies the charges and the allegations made.




What is the differences between the charges laid and the allegations made?




The allegations come first and the charges are then  made based on the allegations and the evidence.




Is there a difference in their minds between the charges and the allegations?

What are the differences?




He intends to fight to the bitter end to clear his name.

A weak statement, i suspect his attorney already knew a plea was coming.




We intend to do many things, we don't always do them, this can be down to time or circumstances.




One day i intend to walk on the moon, is a good example.

It doesn't mean i will.

Also note, order is important

He wishes to thank the fans, family and friends for the constant love and support they have given and continue to give throughout this testing time."

He places his fans first and foremost before his family and friends.
Why are his fans more important than his family and friends?

Do his family and friends know or suspect the truth and have distanced themselves from him?

Are his fans the only ones who believe in his innocence?

Notice he uses the article THE not the expected THEIR.

He says THE fans, family and friends, not HIS fans family and friends.

He thanks them for THE constant love and support, not THEIR constant love and support.

Who then, are the fans, family and friends , if not his?

When is the bitter end according to his attorney?

He doesn't tell us the end of the trial so i can't assume.

The bitter end could be any time, it could be before the trial when he pleads guilty, it could be anytime during the trial up to the verdict, it could be the verdict guilty or not guilty.

He tells us though the bitter end, not the end, bitter implies something not nice or not good.

Being found guilty or admitting guilt would be a bitter end given the charges.

Here would be the prefect place to make a strong denial on behalf of his client yet he doesn't.

He doesn't because he can't.

He would have told his attorney the truth in order for his attorney to do the best he can to either get his client off or minimise the crimes, perhaps to plea bargaining.
If his attorney knows the truth ( in the states any good defence attorney will polygraph their client to see the truth and the lies, to see if they can allow their client to take a LE poly and to  give them some idea of how to run his case and where he can do a deal that is best for his client.

In the end his client admitted his guilt with some minimising.

I feel for his family and friends.

We forget in cases such as this or any abhorrent crime, it isn't just about victim and the
perpetrator, it is also about the victim's family and friends and also about the perpetrators family and friends.

It would be horrible to learn their loved one is a murderer, a paedophile, a rapist.

They wonder if they coud have done something different raising their child, if they missed warning signs, if they didn't see a change in behavior or an increased interest in specific crimes/
They wonder if they could have stopped it happeneing the first time or after that.
They doubt themselves wondering if it was something the did or didn't do, they wonder if it is inherited, if they could turn out the same.

There is support for victims and their families and nothing for the families of the perpetrator.
They are guilty by association, we all say how could they not know, they must have seen something etc. It is a natural instinct, i am guilty of the same thing, how come his wife didn't notice his behavior changing after he raped women, how couldn't she see her partner  was interested in little children.

Paedophiles cannot be cured, it would be like trying to cure someone of heterosexuality, they can lie to fool the psychatrists and psychologists, they know the words to say to minimise their true feelings, they lie to get out and carry on.

Personally i would castrate anyone viewing images as well as those who molest children. viewing is the start of a slippery slope, it becomes jaded so they move on and eventually they are the ones doing the raping.

Execute anyone who molested a child and mandatory 25 yrs per image regardless of scale. The only place for them is jail, in jail they cannot abuse children.

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by tasprin on 26.11.13 22:00

From Watkins' Facebook support group: Ian Watkins is innocent
 
Ian Watkins is innocent
24 minutes ago
It's obvious that Ian is under some form of mental manipulation and after being held captive for so long, and was clearly put through some form of mental torture. He is clearly delirious and we need to keep fighting to prove his innocence!

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by notlongnow on 26.11.13 22:04

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I hope that it isn't being suggested that anything involving consenting adults is on a level with what this man has done!
Of course not,but i'm guessing a paedo sexual urge is the same as adult to adult.
If that is the case i can only see chemical castration as the answer.

Banging a nonce up for 5 to 10 years will possibly make them far more dangerous on release and probably done nothing to surpress there urge.

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by PeterMac on 26.11.13 22:53

@tasprin wrote:From Watkins' Facebook support group: Ian Watkins is innocent
It's obvious that Ian is under some form of mental manipulation and after being held captive for so long, and was clearly put through some form of mental torture. He is clearly delirious and we need to keep fighting to prove his innocence!
Are these the same people who post on Pro-McCann websites ? Or were they all brought up in the same sty ?

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Guest on 26.11.13 23:04

I wonder what they'd say if they saw the graphic evidence of the crimes?

Don't tell me - photo-shopping!

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.11.13 23:07

Châtelaine wrote:
Well, a couple of years ago I read a study that in fact REAL homosexuality originates from the womb.
There are, it is true, a handful of people who promote this claim, which has absolutely zero basis in fact.

No 'homosexual gene' has been discovered.

Nor will one ever be discovered

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by stillsloppingout on 26.11.13 23:43

@tasprin wrote:From Watkins' Facebook support group: Ian Watkins is innocent
 
Ian Watkins is innocent
24 minutes ago
It's obvious that Ian is under some form of mental manipulation and after being held captive for so long, and was clearly put through some form of mental torture. He is clearly delirious and we need to keep fighting to prove his innocence!
They would not be saying that if the jury had been shown the fuck@@g videos . 

Far far worse than glitter . he should have done a Townsend and said it was for research  and probably got off !!!! sick basta@@ . 
by pleading guilty and also getting off on the rape charge, he will get probably 8 years , and not 15 . [ TB will hopefully confirm ]

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Guest on 26.11.13 23:43

@Tony Bennett wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
Well, a couple of years ago I read a study that in fact REAL homosexuality originates from the womb.
There are, it is true, a handful of people who promote this claim, which has absolutely zero basis in fact.

No 'homosexual gene' has been discovered.

Nor will one ever be discovered
***
Tony, with all due respect, I have met and known quite a number of homosexuals. Some of them were very good friends. Some of them died an unfortunate death, infected by others they really, really loved. I have met many, and whilst not knowing them yet, recognised them as being homosexual. It's in the eyes. The "real" ones are just what they are. I have a problem with the "phonies", who get their kicks out of anything deviant. Enough said. I'll look up the articles, I was referring to earlier. If need be, I will translate them.
Good night. :-)

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by stillsloppingout on 26.11.13 23:47

Just goes to show though people from all walks of life can be pedophiles , who pray on young children !! .

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.11.13 23:51

Châtelaine wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
No 'homosexual gene' has been discovered.

Nor will one ever be discovered
***
Tony, with all due respect, I have met and known quite a number of homosexuals. Some of them were very good friends. Some of them died an unfortunate death, infected by others they really, really loved. I have met many, and whilst not knowing them yet, recognised them as being homosexual. It's in the eyes. The "real" ones are just what they are. I have a problem with the "phonies", who get their kicks out of anything deviant. Enough said. I'll look up the articles, I was referring to earlier. If need be, I will translate them.
Good night. :-)
I've duly noted that, Chatelaine, but does any of what you have written change my simple point that "No 'homosexual gene' has been discovered. Nor will one ever be discovered"?

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Guest on 26.11.13 23:52

@stillsloppingout wrote:Just goes to show though people from all walks of life can be pedophiles , who pray on young children !! .
To which comment are you referring, Sloppingout?

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by stillsloppingout on 26.11.13 23:55

Châtelaine wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
Well, a couple of years ago I read a study that in fact REAL homosexuality originates from the womb.
There are, it is true, a handful of people who promote this claim, which has absolutely zero basis in fact.

No 'homosexual gene' has been discovered.

Nor will one ever be discovered
***
Tony, with all due respect, I have met and known quite a number of homosexuals. Some of them were very good friends. Some of them died an unfortunate death, infected by others they really, really loved. I have met many, and whilst not knowing them yet, recognised them as being homosexual. It's in the eyes. The "real" ones are just what they are. I have a problem with the "phonies", who get their kicks out of anything deviant. Enough said. I'll look up the articles, I was referring to earlier. If need be, I will translate them.
Good night. :-)
The trouble with Homosexuality , is the lines are blurred these day's ,there are the real Gay's who are sexually attracted to the same sex . There are the fashionable gay's , who are gay because its trendy [ usually eventually marry have kids ] some time these unions are real, other times fake .

 Then there are predatory gays, who are sometimes married ,but carnal lust makes them perform homosexual acts . usually these are the people who become pedophiles .

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Guest on 26.11.13 23:55

@Tony Bennett wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
No 'homosexual gene' has been discovered.

Nor will one ever be discovered
***
Tony, with all due respect, I have met and known quite a number of homosexuals. Some of them were very good friends. Some of them died an unfortunate death, infected by others they really, really loved. I have met many, and whilst not knowing them yet, recognised them as being homosexual. It's in the eyes. The "real" ones are just what they are. I have a problem with the "phonies", who get their kicks out of anything deviant. Enough said. I'll look up the articles, I was referring to earlier. If need be, I will translate them.
Good night. :-)
I've duly noted that, Chatelaine, but does any of what you have written change my simple point that "No 'homosexual gene' has been discovered. Nor will one ever be discovered"?
***
As I said, Tony: I will get back on this tomorrow [or rather later today ... as we're well past midnight on the continent].
Good night smilie 

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by stillsloppingout on 26.11.13 23:56

Châtelaine wrote:
@stillsloppingout wrote:Just goes to show though people from all walks of life can be pedophiles , who pray on young children !! .
To which comment are you referring, Sloppingout?
IAN WATKINS

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by ultimaThule on 27.11.13 3:01

@stillsloppingout wrote:
@tasprin wrote:From Watkins' Facebook support group: Ian Watkins is innocent
 
Ian Watkins is innocent
24 minutes ago
It's obvious that Ian is under some form of mental manipulation and after being held captive for so long, and was clearly put through some form of mental torture. He is clearly delirious and we need to keep fighting to prove his innocence!
They would not be saying that if the jury had been shown the fuck@@g videos . 

Far far worse than glitter . he should have done a Townsend and said it was for research  and probably got off !!!! sick basta@@ . 
by pleading guilty and also getting off on the rape charge, he will get probably 8 years , and not 15 . [ TB will hopefully confirm ]
From the Daily Mail article: "Mr Clee said camcorder footage was shot in a London hotel room which showed Watkins perform a sex act on the child.

Computer analysts found the footage uploaded to an online cloud storage facility.

Mr Clee said that following this meeting, the pair exchanged emails about how they would not go 'easy' on the child next time.

The prosecutor told the judge that both of his attempted rape admissions were accepted, despite Watkins facing rape charges.

He acknowledged that there was an argument regarding what key video evidence seized from Watkins's laptop actually showed.

'From the footage, there is an argument as to whether the full offence is made out,' he told judge Mr Justice Royce.

'If it is made out, it is minimal. There is so little difference between the full attempt and the attempt as to make no difference.

'We are prepared to accept the pleas as tendered.'
He also told the judge that the prosecution had in mind the effect on the jury of watching the explicit video footage - at previous hearings discussed arranging counselling for jurors who might need it.


On reading the above it appears that, on what would have been the first day of a trial in which a jury would have been shown evidence which was considered so potentially shocking and distressing that counselling would be made available to any jurors who were traumatised by viewing it,  Ian Watkins pleaded guilty to 2 counts of attempted rape of an 11-month old baby boy, 1 count of conspiring to rape a baby girl, and 3 counts of possessing indecent photographs of children.

I very much hope I'm wrong in saying that it would seem this paedophile and his 2 female co-defendants have pleaded guilty to what is, in effect, sexual assault for which the sentencing start point is a derisory 5 years with a sentence range of 4 to 8 years. 

A life sentence with a minimum tariff of 25 years would seem a more appropriate sentence for what is clearly a dangerous and predatory paedophile and if it transpires he has committed other serious sexual offences against children, I trust that his punishment will eventually fit his crimes.

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Tony Bennett on 27.11.13 5:51

@stillsloppingout wrote:

by pleading guilty and also getting off on the rape charge, he will get probably 8 years, and not 15. [ TB will hopefully confirm ]
According to this:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s1_rape/  [CPS guidance on rape and attempted rape]

the maximum sentence for attempted rape is life imprisonment (in the most serious cases)

with a recommendation that anyone guilty of rape or attempted rape of a minor under 10 years should normally be sentenced to between 8 and 13 years

(which = 4 to 6.5 years in jail for 'good behaviour')

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Re: Ian Watkins of 'lostprophets' in court over 24 charges of child sexual abuse

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 27.11.13 8:04

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@stillsloppingout wrote:

by pleading guilty and also getting off on the rape charge, he will get probably 8 years, and not 15. [ TB will hopefully confirm ]
According to this:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s1_rape/  [CPS guidance on rape and attempted rape]

the maximum sentence for attempted rape is life imprisonment (in the most serious cases)

with a recommendation that anyone guilty of rape or attempted rape of a minor under 10 years should normally be sentenced to between 8 and 13 years

(which = 4 to 6.5 years in jail for 'good behaviour')
These sentencing guidelines are disgustingly lenient. Once it has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that someone raped a child, they should never be let out again, ever. Even if there was only 1% or2% chance they would re-offend (the reality of course is a much higher percentage than that) that is a chance too high IMO. Sexual offences do have a high re-offending rate, be it pedos or rapists of adults, and by releasing these people back into society, what the Justice system is REALLY saying is that the future safety of children and others is not important enough to permanently remove the dangerous perpetrator from society forever so that they can never do this again.

I am starting to believe that EITHER a significant enough percentage of the Judiciary affiliate themselves with sexual predators hence the lenient jail terms OR it suits the common purpose to have enough of these evil monsters circulating in society to keep decent parents and carers in a state where this is always a fear, thus increasing the level of powerlessness that is being promoted in society.

I don't doubt for a minute that a lot more could be done to deal with these vile individuals, but I believe it is a deliberate choice by the authorities to merely pay lip service to the safety of our children.

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