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JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by diatribe on 12.02.14 14:34


  However, the jury was sent out on Monday afternoon and, unless they come back today, I doubt there'll be a unanimous verdict on all charges.

There doesn't have to be unanimous verdicts on any of the counts, when the judge tires of sitting in chambers, much preferring to be on the golf course, he'll merely instruct the jury that he will accept majority verdicts of 9-3 on all counts.

Due to the inclement weather conditions at the moment in this Septic Isle where the sun rarely shines, our Dave may get a slightly longer run before the judge decides he's had enough of the make pretend game of unanimous verdicts. big grin

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by diatribe on 12.02.14 14:54

@ultimaThule wrote:

I became interested in the case 2 weeks ago when I learned the jury was told not to attend until 11.30am the following day as this is usually an indication of legal arguments being put before the judge in closed court.   I wasn't surprised to discover the judge had previously instructed the jury to acquit on one count of indecent assault, but I was surprised he didn't add another 2 counts to his earlier instruction.  




Indeed not, Ultima, no surprise at all considering that the witness's evidence amounted to the fact that she didn't know whether or not any sexual offences had been perpetrated upon her person.

I was actually surprised he didn't add all the charges to his earlier instructions at half time, although Roache's QC did state that the judge was highly prejudicial in his summation, which in itself is indicative of where his allegiances lay, because judges are always favourable to the prosecution in the CC system of England and Wales. Hence the adage, 'The last word.'

The only exception I can think of was the case of Jeremy Thorpe where the judge all but instructed the jury to find him not guilty in his summing up.

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Freddie Starr arrested again

Post by PeterMac on 12.02.14 15:03


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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by diatribe on 12.02.14 15:04

Ultima, according to various sources, Rolf Harris, although not having been arraigned for making indecent images, has actually been charged. You appear to have a reasonable knowledge of the way in which the British Justice system works , indeed I hold your opinion on such matters in high esteem.

Therefore, on the basis of the aforementioned, you will know that the prosecution can add additional charges right up to the commencement of a trial.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by diatribe on 12.02.14 15:07


Maybe he will have to eat his hampster after all. big grin

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by ultimaThule on 13.02.14 12:54

Having been sent out on Monday and having deliberated the case for 19 hours, the judge in the Dave Lee Travis trial has instructed the jury to return majority verdicts.    If the jury don't come back this afternoon, they won't resume their deliberations until next Monday as the Court will not be sitting tomorrow.   

It could be that the judge's instruction may produce a verdict round about 3-3.30pm this afternoon but, in any event, I suspect the defence is not overly optimistic that their client will be acquitted on all charges.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by ultimaThule on 13.02.14 13:08

Third time?  Freddie Starr was first arrested in November 2012, again in April of last year, and on 14 January and 12 Februrary of this year. 

As Mr Starr is yet to appear in a court of law in relation to these allegations, it would seem that he has been arrested a total of 4 times over a period 15+ months 'on suspicion of' and has been on police bail throughout. 

An application to the High Court for a judicial review of police/CPS conduct in this case is long overdue.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by diatribe on 13.02.14 14:07

@ultimaThule wrote:Having been sent out on Monday and having deliberated the case for 19 hours, the judge in the Dave Lee Travis trial has instructed the jury to return majority verdicts.    If the jury don't come back this afternoon, they won't resume their deliberations until next Monday as the Court will not be sitting tomorrow.   

It could be that the judge's instruction may produce a verdict round about 3-3.30pm this afternoon but, in any event, I suspect the defence is not overly optimistic that their client will be acquitted on all charges.

Indeed so, Ultima, which as previously stated, makes a mockery of the 'unanimous' verdict the judge initially demanded. A majority verdict is never a good sign for a defendant, because juries are rarely if ever split in favour of the accused. He's obviously got a few fans, but at the moment he needs at least 3.

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Dave Lee Travis

Post by PeterMac on 13.02.14 14:18

Not Guilty on 12 charges, unable to agree on the other two.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by ultimaThule on 13.02.14 14:23

@PeterMac wrote:Not Guilty on 12 charges, unable to agree on the other two.
Wow! That is stunning result for the defence and I very much doubt there'll be a retrial on the other two. 

Mmm... seems to me Yewtree has been sent a powerful message to up their game or get off the pot.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by PeterMac on 13.02.14 14:41

It is interesting, since they jury had asked for specific advice on the standard of proof in "historical" allegations.
It should be sending a message.
One of the ones they could not agree on was a relatively mild 'fondling over clothing' of a grown women, who made no complaint, did not slap his face but told her mother and then waited 40 years . . .
That does not excuse but puts it into context.

I very much doubt whether the CPS would ask for a retrial on this, since the likely sentence IF he were found guilty would be less than a slap across the face.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by diatribe on 13.02.14 15:51

That is indeed a surprise, I wonder if any of our statisticians can provide percentage figures on  how many defendants are acquitted in the UK on majority verdicts. Even these figures would have to be tempered by the 'celebrity' factor, where as previously stated, there is a reluctance on the part of jurists to convict.

I note that Mr. Travis has stated that he has had to sell his property to fund his legal expenses. I'm not sure of the position vis a vis recovering these expenses from the Crown, but I've got a suspicion that in order to do so, he would have to show that it was a malicious prosecution. Others may be able to further clarify his position regarding legal expenses. Undoubtably, had he been convicted he would have been ordered to pay towards the prosecution costs.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by ultimaThule on 13.02.14 15:57

@PeterMac wrote:It is interesting, since they jury had asked for specific advice on the standard of proof in "historical" allegations.
It should be sending a message.
One of the ones they could not agree on was a relatively mild 'fondling over clothing' of a grown women, who made no complaint, did not slap his face but told her mother and then waited 40 years . . .
That does not excuse but puts it into context.  

I very much doubt whether the CPS would ask for a retrial on this, since the likely sentence IF he were found guilty would be less than a slap across the face.

It seems to me that the standard of proof in the matter of historical allegations which were not reported at the time comes down to the word of the accused against that of the accuser.  

I don't doubt that there was, and may still be for all we know, a culture of sexism in the BBC and that 'stars' were/are given preferential treatment but, nevertheless, it appears that if these offences took place, the accused did not use his considerable advantage of weight and height to overpower his victims and do more than have a quick 'grope', for want of a better word.  

Such behaviour is, of course, inexcusable but it is something that women learn to deal with as few of us have gone through life without having seen a flasher or having our bums pinched by a stranger on a crowded tube, or been sat next to a man with wandering hands - I have a fine strategy for dealing with those particular offenders.  

As you have implied, PeterMac, context is all and my concern is that in the public's mind 'indecent' or 'sexual' assault may be seen as being far more serious than fondling of a clothed breast - dealt with back in the day by magistrates who handed down a slap on the wrist by way of a £5 fine - with consequent irreparable damage to the reputations of those accused.   

There will no doubt be howls of protest from various quarters at the prospect, but there is a case for anonymity on both sides for sex crimes until such time as a conviction is obtained.  In addition, urgent consideration should be given to bringing the UK into line with the rest of Europe by imposing a statute of limitations on all sexual offences excluding, IMO, rape.

I suspect that, including police hours, this trial will have cost in excess of £1.5 million; there are reports that Mr Travis (Griffin) found it necessary to sell his house to meet his legal costs and I trust he will be reimbursed by the Crown - i.e. the hard-pressed until the pips squeak taxpayers of England/Wales.  

The allegations made against Bill Roache should never have come to court and it seems the same can be said for this latest travesty.

As the Met remains in dire need of a spectacular success it's down to Andy to revive its flagging fortunes and it's to be hoped he'll do so without further delay.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by diatribe on 13.02.14 16:13

@ultimaThule wrote:


As the Met remains in dire need of a spectacular success




Maybe they'll decide to raid another Deposit Box company, or launch an assault on the current squatters occupying Buckingham Palace.

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We were correct

Post by PeterMac on 14.02.14 8:47

As so often - we were ahead of the game.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2558992/Why-jury-convict-DLT-Key-question-judge-showed-thought-case-old-weak-little-forensic-evidence.html
Why the jury couldn't convict DLT: Key question to the judge showed they thought case was too old and too weak, with too little forensic evidence
Jurors' thinking was hinted at in written question to judge
They asked whether believing a witness meant they must find Travis guilty
But they then cleared him of 12 charges of indecent assault today
By SAM GREENHILL and REBECCA CAMBER
07:54 GMT, 14 February 2014
Jurors cleared Dave Lee Travis after a question to the judge revealed they were apparently grappling with the difficulties of historical allegations.
They offered a glimpse into their thinking when they asked the judge about the ‘lack of supporting evidence and the passage of time’.
There was no forensic evidence put forward and in none of the 14 counts was there a corroborating witness to the alleged assaults. As Travis himself told the jury, after the court had heard the women’s claims: ‘It’s their word against mine.’


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Was it all about money ?

Post by PeterMac on 14.02.14 9:47

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2559003/Troubling-questions-justice-The-acquittal-Dave-Lee-Travis-does-not-mean-veteran-DJ-leave-courtroom-without-stain-character.html

SNIP. . . As Dave Lee Travis told the police: ‘They can smell money. This is just someone jumping into the game to see how much money they can get out of it … why wait (so many) years?’
Which seems a valid question to ask when some of the allegations were aired for the first time nearly 40 years after the event.
This is how it so easily could work. The Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority pays fixed damages to victims of violent crime. On its website, the first page supplies a PDF link; on page 66 of that is a tariff that any idiot can understand of what you may claim for various sexual transgressions.
For example: under 18, one incident, non-penetrative = £3,300. Two incidents = £4,400. But if you say it was penetrative, it leaps to £13,500; find a doctor to swear you are very psychologically disturbed by it and you net £27,000. And so forth.
Now then. If you are claiming there was an assault 30, 40 or even 50 years ago, with no witnesses, no forensic or any other evidence – what, you might think, have you to lose by trying it on? And, while you’re at it, exaggerating to the hilt? For further encouragement, ever since the Jimmy Savile revelations, the inclination on the part of the authorities is to believe those who accuse the famous. Now this may be commendable, but is it justice? Certainly, two juries thought not.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by canada12 on 14.02.14 10:04

In the early 1980s I worked at a company where the boss had a habit of putting his arm around the shoulders of female workers and then brushing his hand inappropriately over their breasts or bottoms. He enjoyed the squirming reaction of the employees. He tried it on me, and I froze. I didn't react at all. He removed his arm and sauntered off.

Is that any kind of sexual assault? Not in the context of the early 1980s. It was considered inappropriate, and it was something that should have been reported to the boss. Except he was the boss. So, no one to report it to. I reported it to my husband, and he congratulated me on not reacting and therefore depriving my boss of his jollies.

If that same boss was brought up on charges similar to the kind being pursued by Yewtree today, would I come forward as a victim of this man's inappropriate touching? What if I discovered there was a considerable payout offered to me, if he was found guilty?

An interesting observation, Petermac.

By the way, the above is a true story.

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Dave Lee Travis - retrial

Post by PeterMac on 24.02.14 11:01

DLT IS to face re-trial on two charge on which the jury failed to agree.
Sky news Monday 24/2

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by Guest on 24.02.14 11:27

@PeterMac wrote:DLT IS to face re-trial on two charge on which the jury failed to agree.
Sky news Monday 24/2


Dave Lee Travis to face retrial on sex offence charges

Dave Lee Travis and his wife Marianne Dave Lee Travis and his wife Marianne returned to Southwark Crown Court after his acquittal on 12 charges on 13 February
Former Radio 1 DJ Dave Lee Travis is to face a retrial on charges of indecent and sexual assault, the Crown Prosecution Service has said.

The 68-year-old, from Mentmore, Buckinghamshire, was found not guilty earlier this month of 12 counts of indecent assault.

However, the jury at Southwark Crown Court was unable to reach a verdict on the two outstanding charges.

Mr Travis was given bail and is due back in court on 28 March.

Appearing before Judge Anthony Leonard, prosecutor Miranda Moore QC told the court: "The prosecution is seeking a retrial for two outstanding counts."

The BBC's home affairs correspondent, Danny Shaw, who was in court, said the prosecution and defence agreed there would be a two-week trial, for which a date was to be set.

Former BBC presenter Travis was accused of indecently assaulting 10 women and sexually assaulting another in alleged incidents dating back to 1976 when he was at the height of his fame.

The outstanding charges relate to an allegation of indecent assault against a woman in the early 1990s along with an alleged sexual assault on a journalist in 2008.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26322552

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by Woofer on 24.02.14 11:48

What`s the difference between an indecent assault and a sexual assault?

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by sallypelt on 24.02.14 12:12

@Woofer wrote:What`s the difference between an indecent assault and a sexual assault?
An indecent assault is someone groping another person with one's hands, over the victim's clothing. Sexual assault is.............anyway, you can use your imagination    dance

Edited to add, that the grope has to be unwanted or unwarranted.  spin

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by Woofer on 24.02.14 15:49

@sallypelt wrote:
@Woofer wrote:What`s the difference between an indecent assault and a sexual assault?
An indecent assault is someone groping another person with one's hands, over the victim's clothing. Sexual assault is.............anyway, you can use your imagination    dance

Edited to add, that the grope has to be unwanted or unwarranted.  spin

OK ta sallypelt.  So indecent assault is groping over the clothing and sexual assault is groping under the clothing ?  I really didn`t know what the legal description was - perhaps I should have googled it.  big grin

P.S. Just checked on google and they are virtually the same, so I don`t know how the prosecutors have categorised them differently. Its all very complicated.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by Doug D on 26.02.14 12:55

Police poised to level charges in paedophile ring linked to MP’s (Met's Operation Cayacos)
 
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5198/police-poised-to-level-charges-in-paedophile-ring-linked-to-mps - .Uw3X6nJa5ao.twitter
 
(Pulled from Dewi Lennards twitter feed)

Nothing official from the Met yet though.

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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by sallypelt on 26.02.14 13:19

@Woofer wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:
@Woofer wrote:What`s the difference between an indecent assault and a sexual assault?
An indecent assault is someone groping another person with one's hands, over the victim's clothing. Sexual assault is.............anyway, you can use your imagination    dance

Edited to add, that the grope has to be unwanted or unwarranted.  spin

OK ta sallypelt.  So indecent assault is groping over the clothing and sexual assault is groping under the clothing ?  I really didn`t know what the legal description was - perhaps I should have googled it.  big grin

P.S. Just checked on google and they are virtually the same, so I don`t know how the prosecutors have categorised them differently. Its all very complicated.

Woofer, I didn't want to spell it out, but as you've "forced my hand" laughat titter  I will copy and paste where the differences lie:
What are: sexual assault, indecent assault?

What is sexual assault?

Generally speaking, sexual assault is any type of unwanted sexual behaviour that makes someone feel uncomfortable, intimidated or afraid. This includes:
## Putting a penis, object or other body part in the victim’s vagina or anus, or putting a penis in the victim’s mouth. This is called penetration.
## Contact between the mouth and genitals.
## Being touched on the genitals by the abuser.
## Being forced to touch the abuser on their genitals.
## Being forced to look at, or pose for, pornographic photos/videos.
## Being forced to perform sexual acts while the abuser watches.
## Being forced to watch while the abuser performs sexual acts.
## Sexual suggestions/jokes, repeated sexual innuendo or harassment.

Sexual assault is about power. Sexual assault is a violent crime expressed through sexual acts. Sexual assault is against the law.

What is indecent assault?

Indecent assault is considered any assault that occurs under “indecent circumstances” and that is not covered by the list shown above under ‘What is sexual assault?’

This typically means things such as:
## Being touched over your clothes
## Being forced to touch someone over their clothes
## Being forced to kiss.

Indecent assault is against the law.


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Re: JIMMY SAVILE plus Many others involved in the abuse scandal

Post by Woofer on 26.02.14 14:33

oo er yukki woo - that is graphic !  Still I suppose I did ask.

Wish I`d remained unknowing. Feel sick now. 

Think we`d better move on !

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