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'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

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'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by whmon on 11.04.13 10:23

This is a link to a book called 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism by Professor John Banja, Department of Rehabilitation Medicine
Medical Ethicist, Center for Ethics
Director, Ethics Section: Atlanta Clinical and Translational Science Institute.

I've skim read it and basically it states that members of the medical profession are very apt to 'cover up their tracks' to a greater degree than the rest of us and also exhibit a high level of narcissism. Who knew?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=ZUdNEjtkloQC&oi=fnd&pg=PT14&dq=medical+errors+and++medical+narcissism++john+banja&ots=2RR72wrshW&sig=u98vBcKipX4Ey4jL8Ex_PnIBG70

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by PeterMac on 11.04.13 12:07

I am not surprised.
Medical mistakes can cost lives and ultimately many thousands of pounds in the compensation culture which exists.
There is a difference between a doctor amputating the wrong leg, by accident, and a cabinet maker cutting the wrong leg off an antique for restoration, by accident.
Since the are 'all in the same boat' they are likely to cover up,.
"There but for the grace of whoever . ."

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by russiandoll on 11.04.13 15:30

An interesting topic. It certainly appears that there is a common issue binding the group, which has compelled them to close ranks. Sedation is what I strongly suspect happened, and that an accident occurred due to a drowsy child moving around when she was unsteady on her feet, or an accidental overdose was given, causing respiratory arrest. Either way, someone went into that apartment and discovered her in a state that had reached the point of no return. I do not believe this happened at dinner time on 3rd May. I believe by then the little one had been removed to a temporary resting place.

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by aquila on 11.04.13 15:39

The NHS use PR companies for many things including crisis management. It may be worth taking a look at the Health Authorities in UK, the crisis management PR companies they use and the directors of these companies. You never know there might be another tangled web of coincidences.

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by PeterMac on 11.04.13 16:00

@russiandoll wrote:An interesting topic. It certainly appears that there is a common issue binding the group, which has compelled them to close ranks. Sedation is what I strongly suspect happened, and that an accident occurred due to a drowsy child moving around when she was unsteady on her feet, or an accidental overdose was given, causing respiratory arrest. . .
Indeed, see my paper on Sedation.
let us not forget that ALL the couples were leaving their children in apartments, every night, under exactly the same circumstances. Whether their repective doors were locked has never been explored.
The couple upstairs very probably had locked their door, but the other apartments all opened out onto the little footpath between the gardens and the pool, and it is possible they they used that. Dr Amaral states this categorically of JT, and may have evidence of this.
In that case all the patio doors were unlocked.
And it is also at least possible that the same sedation was being used on all the children. Might that bind them together ?

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by russiandoll on 11.04.13 16:11

quote Petermac " it is also at least possible that the same sedation was being used on all the children. Might that bind them together? "

For sure is my answer to that, based on how I would have reacted as a parent in that group, had all the children been sedated.

I would be thinking " there but for the grace of God, thank God that it was not ....... how lucky have we been. WE HAVE TO HELP THEM."
[As well as cover our own backs of course....]. KM and FP were the ones who would have given sedation, as trained anaesthetists. I suspect Kate's close friend, FP, who is largely ignored in all the speculation, would have taken the lead here, as she was more experienced.
I also find the checking by the clock suspiciously like routine observation of patients in hospital. And they did check by the clock.
I will never understand, though, if this is what happened, how they could have put self-preservation above the truth about a child's disappearance.

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by Nina on 11.04.13 23:37

@russiandoll wrote:quote Petermac " it is also at least possible that the same sedation was being used on all the children. Might that bind them together? "

For sure is my answer to that, based on how I would have reacted as a parent in that group, had all the children been sedated.

I would be thinking " there but for the grace of God, thank God that it was not ....... how lucky have we been. WE HAVE TO HELP THEM."
[As well as cover our own backs of course....]. KM and FP were the ones who would have given sedation, as trained anaesthetists. I suspect Kate's close friend, FP, who is largely ignored in all the speculation, would have taken the lead here, as she was more experienced.
I also find the checking by the clock suspiciously like routine observation of patients in hospital. And they did check by the clock.
I will never understand, though, if this is what happened, how they could have put self-preservation above the truth about a child's disappearance.

I find this odd http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Before they left she took some precautions: put the medicine inside a bag with a clasp in her room inside the wardrobe or the dresser. These were Calpol (paracetamol) and Nurofen (Ibuprofen), for fevers and pains, both for adults and children (liquid form for children). In this bag there was also a small pair of scissors. In the kitchen were cutting elements used to prepare the meals and which were not put out of sight. During their trips it was normal for them to take these medicines. During these holidays she never gave any medicine to her children, nor did Gerry. She now says that Gerry took medicine for acidity called Losec (omeprozole) which they also possessed.

So before she left the apartment she put medicines inside a clasped bag, which means they were not in the bag before, so had someone had to take a Nurofen, or a Losec. There wasn't mention of a pain or acidity so what were the drugs doing out of the bag. The bag was then put into the wardrobe, so again they were not there before. Why has she told us this?

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by suzyjohnson on 11.04.13 23:39

I would suppose that if an accident involving Madeleine had been reported - at whatever time that had occured - then there was a possibility that every child within the group would have been be tested for sedatives?

Therefore, everyone within the group (had their child been sedated) would be trying to cover that fact up? So they would all wish to hide a body, at least temporarily? Because everyone within the group would have their career / reputations ruined, and their children taken into care?

I have often wondered whether the initial plan was that if someone had found MM's body relatively quickly, that they could say an abductor had sedated her?

But the one fact that doesn't seem to fit with this, is Fiona Payne's comment in her police statement, that Kate kept checking the twins breathing. It was as though she didn't know?

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by Khalgregar on 11.04.13 23:43

@suzyjohnson wrote:I would suppose that if an accident involving Madeleine had been reported - at whatever time that had occured - then there was a possibility that every child within the group would have been be tested for sedatives?

Therefore, everyone within the group (had their child been sedated) would be trying to cover that fact up? So they would all wish to hide a body, at least temporarily? Because everyone within the group would have their career / reputations ruined, and their children taken into care?

I have often wondered whether the initial plan was that if someone had found MM's body relatively quickly, that they could say an abductor had sedated her?

But the one fact that doesn't seem to fit with this, is Fiona Payne's comment in her police statement, that Kate kept checking the twins breathing. It was as though she didn't know?

If Kate had suspected that an abductor had sedated the twins with an unknown substance - which she says in her book - she would surely have immediately taken them to a hospital. She would only have not done this if she was 100% sure what sedatives were in her children's bloodstreams, and the only way that that is possible is if she sedated them herself.

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by suzyjohnson on 11.04.13 23:45

Nina, the Losec are more of a series of tablets, one every day type of thing, but, yes I have thought the same thing about the medicines.

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by Nina on 12.04.13 0:01

@suzyjohnson wrote:Nina, the Losec are more of a series of tablets, one every day type of thing, but, yes I have thought the same thing about the medicines.

Yes I take one every night Suzyjohnson smilie It's just the mention of putting drugs away safely, which means they must have been out. I have just arrived back home from a week away and our drugs were always kept in a bag each and used from the bag, not taken out and then put back. She is mentioning the safe storage of drugs but doesn't safely store kitchen knives or other household hazardous equipment or cleaning fluids.
The drugs must have been out, to put back, so why were they out?

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by suzyjohnson on 12.04.13 0:05

Yes I agree with you Khalgregar,
But why would Fiona mention it in her statement, if it were the case that all children were sedated?
Unless it was something Fiona did not approve of, and she wanted to draw attention to it?
It doesn't make sense, although by the time of the rogatory interview I think it would have been too late to test anyway.

This is from FP's rogatory interview, she said that when she was looking around the apartment after MM had disappeared, the twins 'didn’t stir at all, which that was, that was odd'

And then later she says, again making reference to the same thing,

' “Did the twins wake up at all?”
Reply “They didn’t. They didn’t”.
1485 “In the aftermath?”
Reply “No, and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn’t, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird.'

Why would she draw attention to this, twice, after so many months had passed?
Did she genuinely wonder why the twins were not disturbed by the noise?
Or was she trying to support KM's reasoning that an abductor had sedated the twins?
If the children were sedated, and they all had gotten away with it by the time of the rogatory interviews, why put the idea in people's minds at all?

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by suzyjohnson on 12.04.13 0:07

Yes I see what you mean Nina, it's an interesting question we would like an answer to

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by PeterMac on 12.04.13 8:05

@Khalgregar wrote:
If Kate had suspected that an abductor had sedated the twins with an unknown substance - which she says in her book - she would surely have immediately taken them to a hospital. She would only have not done this if she was 100% sure what sedatives were in her children's bloodstreams, and the only way that that is possible is if she sedated them herself.
Quite. And there is no substance and no procedure which can be administered to three children within one minute and 20 seconds and knock them all out for 10 hours and allow two of them then to wake and display no side effects.
It is therefore a logical conclusion to draw that both Kate and Fiona knew, knew, exactly what had been administered, in what dose, and when, and that the non-response of the children was therefore perfectly OK, and not a matter of concern. As it clearly wasn't.
IF they had really suspected sedation by an intruder, they put themselves in the frame for the most gross professional negligence, for which they should both be struck off the register.

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Re: 'Medical Errors and Medical Narcissism, a study

Post by aquila on 12.04.13 8:45

@PeterMac wrote:
@Khalgregar wrote:
If Kate had suspected that an abductor had sedated the twins with an unknown substance - which she says in her book - she would surely have immediately taken them to a hospital. She would only have not done this if she was 100% sure what sedatives were in her children's bloodstreams, and the only way that that is possible is if she sedated them herself.
Quite. And there is no substance and no procedure which can be administered to three children within one minute and 20 seconds and knock them all out for 10 hours and allow two of them then to wake and display no side effects.
It is therefore a logical conclusion to draw that both Kate and Fiona knew, knew, exactly what had been administered, in what dose, and when, and that the non-response of the children was therefore perfectly OK, and not a matter of concern. As it clearly wasn't.
IF they had really suspected sedation by an intruder, they put themselves in the frame for the most gross professional negligence, for which they should both be struck off the register.


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