The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by tigger on 04.04.14 13:24

I can't see any benefit in the 'red herring' theory.  If someone could come up with a good reason to fabricate this story, including the person who is named as handing it in - would be good.

Meanwhile we have:
The lack of jeans as highlighted by JT and the borrowing of ROB's fleece. Make a lot of sense in view of the items found.
Other items said to have been in the bag would be exactly what one would have expected to find in5a, colouring pencils to go with a colouring book.

The fact that the bag was handed in by the wife of a VIP guest is not at all suspicious imo.

Very few people would know that the abduction was Not all it seemed. I cannot see dozens of guests pretending to search.
Imo the only people who did not search would stand out amongst the hundreds that did and hey - what do you know?

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Gillyspot on 04.04.14 13:35

The fact that the bag wasn't "found" until around 3rd week in October 2007 & after the McCanns' were declared arguidos does seem odd to me.

Particularly as "The DNA samples were not an exact match but were thought to show a "moderate" link to the missing four-year-old" causes a "friend" of them (AKA Clarrie) to state   "It potentially suggests that someone has taken her then disposed of the clothing.
"They have done it near Faro which could imply they have gone in the direction of the airport. It backs up the idea she was abducted."

Worth noting that "moderate" link to Maddie's DNA is worthwhile in this case & 15 out of 19 markers is not IMO

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-491653/Bag-clothes-dumped-near-Portugal-airport-shows-DNA-links-Maddie.html#ixzz2xv7oNslW
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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Hicks on 04.04.14 14:44

The Smith sighting could be a red herring. It just doesn't fit. I am beginning to think that maybe it was a father innocently carrying his sleeping child home. Obviously any child seen on that night in such circumstances would be of interest.

I remember an incident years ago when myself and a friend were walking home late one night in the town where I live. From nowhere a mini suddenly drove at some speed up the main road, mounted the pavement in an attempt to run down the lady who was walking down the pavement on the opposite side of the road. We watched in horror as the mini would back up and then try to ram into this poor woman. Thankfully she made a run for it.
We were witnesses and of course were asked to give statements.

M point is, we perceived things very differently, in fact when we compared our statements afterwards they really didn't match up, even to the colour of the mini.

Lets look at what David Payne had to say about the 6.30 visit. If he is lying, which is a distinct possibility, it would add weight to the McCann's lying about what Madeleine was wearing on the night of the 3rd.

Rogatory Interview with Leicestershire Police on 11th April 2008.

1485."Okay, so now what I'm gonna try and ask you to recollect what everyone was wearing.

Reply.(DP) " I'm afraid that is, you know I'm, I cannot recall at all. I know that's, you'd think that'd be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know 'WHITE', but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing, err...."

1485."But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example"?

Reply.(DP)" I can't. No."

According to KM statement, Sept 6th, she answered DP knock draped in a bath towel. A bath towel eh? How very convenient!

Jane Tanner first mentioned a child wrapped in a blanket being carried away, that then changed to pink type pyjamas.
There has been an obvious effort to persuade us that Madeleine was wearing pink pyjamas the last time she was seen. From what I can see there is no evidence to suggest that Madeleine was actually wearing pink pyjamas when she went missing.

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by kimHager on 04.04.14 15:27

And in several sightings the night of the third the child had a blanket but a few saw no blanket.... It's probable if someone carried a dead child would they use a blanket to hide the face? I believe ppl saw a very living child being carried by a parent that night. It's too risky to carry a dead child around..
The bag has always interested me... I believe the shower curtain is an odd find. If there was a link to Maddy why hadn't we heard more on that bag I wonder...

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Guest on 05.04.14 11:50

@Hicks wrote:The Smith sighting could be a red herring. It just doesn't fit. I am beginning to think that maybe it was a father innocently carrying his sleeping child home. Obviously any child seen on that night in such circumstances would be of interest.

I remember an incident years ago when myself and a friend were walking home late one night in the town where I live. From nowhere a mini suddenly drove at some speed up the main road, mounted the pavement in an attempt to run down the lady who was walking down the pavement on the opposite side of the road. We watched in horror as the mini would back up and then try to ram into this poor woman. Thankfully she made a run for it.
We were witnesses and of course were asked to give statements.

M point is, we perceived things very differently, in fact when we compared our statements afterwards they really didn't match up, even to the colour of the mini.

Lets look at what David Payne had to say about the 6.30 visit. If he is lying, which is a distinct possibility, it would add weight to the McCann's lying about what Madeleine was wearing on the night of the 3rd.

Rogatory Interview with Leicestershire Police on 11th April 2008.

1485."Okay, so now what I'm gonna try and ask you to recollect what everyone was wearing.

Reply.(DP) " I'm afraid that is, you know I'm, I cannot recall at all. I know that's, you'd think that'd be an obvious thing to remember, I cannot remember. As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know 'WHITE', but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing, err...."

1485."But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example"?

Reply.(DP)" I can't. No."

According to KM statement, Sept 6th, she answered DP knock draped in a bath towel. A bath towel eh? How very convenient!

Jane Tanner first mentioned a child wrapped in a blanket being carried away, that then changed to pink type pyjamas.
There has been an obvious effort to persuade us that Madeleine was wearing pink pyjamas the last time she was seen. From what I can see there is no evidence to suggest that Madeleine was actually wearing pink pyjamas when she went missing.

DP was also asked to discribe Madeleine

1485 "Okay. I'd like you to discribe Madeleine to me. What sort of a child she is and you know how you see her.'

Reply "Mm, err Madeleine's err a very striking err beautiful child, I'd almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think, you know very unique looking child err, she'd got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine err and you know she, she was, you know Kate and Gerry's, you know pride and joy. They'd had a lot of trouble conceiving, you know with IVF and everything and you know Madeleine was their miracle. She was obviously very unique with the fact that she'd got the, you know the iris defect err but you know she was certainly a happy go lucky child you know she was, she would interact with the other children very well, as I said on the other, earlier recording, you know she played very happily with Lily and you know indeed the other children. She was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.'

I have always found certain parts of his discription of MM disturbing, and why would he say[ "blond hair in err bob" I don't belive he was there at 6.30, and neither was Madeleine, imo he was recalling MM from memory but how long ago was that memory from?

GM discribing MM's hair, dark blond hair which is straight and shoulder length.

KM discribing MM's hair, dark blond hair; shoulder-length.

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Upsy Daisy on 05.04.14 12:02

Would housekeeping not notice that sheets and/shower curtains had gone missing? Surely the PJ did a check of these things? If I also recall and I may be wrong, so apologies, was JT not in her apartment tending to her child on her check, when the alarm was raised, which meant she was up there for around 45 mins?


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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Guest on 05.04.14 12:06

@Hicks wrote:
@canada12 wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:There seemed to be very little notice taken of Bag found near to airport,i just realized we heard about bag ,but it was short lived ,does anyomn recall tis ?

I remember it quite well, and I remember it being discussed... and then it all got buried and forgotten about... I think one of the important things about the items in this bag is that the predominant colour seemed to be green. However everything we've heard about Madeleine is pink, pink, pink. One wonders now whether the whole "pink" thing was also a diversion away from the possibility that the bag did have something to do with the case, but because the colours of the items weren't pink, they were dissociated from peoples' minds (and also perhaps the detectives).
That's a good point canada12.

The green t-shirt had a flower motive so most likely a girls item of clothing.
I will look for info regarding this bag.

Jane Tanner WAS wearing a fleece on the night in question, and she went to great pains to let it be known that she didn't bring jeans on the holiday. Now why would you even need to mention that?

Lets assume for a moment that the contents of this bag are very significant. A green t-shirt and NOT pink pyjama's could have been the last thing Madeleine wore. We have no proof that she was wearing pink pyjama's the night she went missing. If this t-shirt was the last item of clothing to be worn then it would be fair to assume that she didn't have an accident close to bedtime or indeed on the night of the 3rd, it would suggest that the time of death was during the day and not necessarily on the 3rd.

With regard to the red underlined bit, Jane Tanner is on record as saying "When I carried her...".

I, not 'he'.

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Hicks on 05.04.14 12:34

Dee Coy wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
@canada12 wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:There seemed to be very little notice taken of Bag found near to airport,i just realized we heard about bag ,but it was short lived ,does anyomn recall tis ?

I remember it quite well, and I remember it being discussed... and then it all got buried and forgotten about... I think one of the important things about the items in this bag is that the predominant colour seemed to be green. However everything we've heard about Madeleine is pink, pink, pink. One wonders now whether the whole "pink" thing was also a diversion away from the possibility that the bag did have something to do with the case, but because the colours of the items weren't pink, they were dissociated from peoples' minds (and also perhaps the detectives).
That's a good point canada12.

The green t-shirt had a flower motive so most likely a girls item of clothing.
I will look for info regarding this bag.

Jane Tanner WAS wearing a fleece on the night in question, and she went to great pains to let it be known that she didn't bring jeans on the holiday. Now why would you even need to mention that?

Lets assume for a moment that the contents of this bag are very significant. A green t-shirt and NOT pink pyjama's could have been the last thing Madeleine wore. We have no proof that she was wearing pink pyjama's the night she went missing. If this t-shirt was the last item of clothing to be worn then it would be fair to assume that she didn't have an accident close to bedtime or indeed on the night of the 3rd, it would suggest that the time of death was during the day and not necessarily on the 3rd.

With regard to the red underlined bit, Jane Tanner is on record as saying "When I carried her...".

I, not 'he'.
Regarding Jane Tanner, she was wearing purple on the night, we know this as JW says so, and the elderly Brit Lady who reported a Portuguese looking woman (wearing purple) acting suspiciously outside the McCann's apartment an hour or so before the event.

IIRC the forensic report on the fleece and jeans had links to Madeleine's DNA,( the jeans had 60 different stains on them...umm) also traces of congealed skin and hair. JT perhaps 'dealt' with the body wearing these clothes, as she let slip, "when I carried her...".JT says she was wearing her partners fleece on the night in question. So was the fleece purple or blue?

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by jeanmonroe on 05.04.14 13:29

The only 'fleece' in this whole sorry 'saga' has been the setting up of a 'private fund', for the McCanns and their 'wider family' benefit, and their unashamably acceptance of handicapped kiddies 'donations' (£23.45p) and primary school 'cake bake' donations (£37.59p) USED by, and to pay for, the McCanns, (and who knows who elses?) mortgage/s repayments with!

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by aquila on 05.04.14 13:37

@jeanmonroe wrote:The only 'fleece' in this whole sorry 'saga' has been the setting up of a 'private fund', for the McCanns and their 'wider family' benefit, and their unashamably acceptance of handicapped kiddies 'donations' (£23.45p) and primary school 'cake bake' donations (£37.59p) to pay the McCanns, (and who knows who elses?) mortgage/s repayments with!
It's just sick jeanmonroe. It's more than that. It's revolting.

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by suzyjohnson on 05.04.14 14:10

@Upsy Daisy wrote:Would housekeeping not notice that sheets and/shower curtains had gone missing? Surely the PJ did a check of these things? If I also recall and I may be wrong, so apologies, was JT not in her apartment tending to her child on her check, when the alarm was raised, which meant she was up there for around 45 mins?


The shower curtain in 5A could have been replaced with one from another flat, but yes you would expect the staff to notice one was missing.

JT went to her apartment (according to Tapas statements) at 9.15 pm (when she saw Tannerman) then she returned to the Tapas around 9.20 pm - 9.25 pm. ROB then went to check at 9.30 pm, he sent a message back via MO that their child was ill, and so JT returned to her apartment once more at 9.45 pm and stayed there until after the alarm was raised at 10 pm. 

JW says he saw a woman with dark hair and purple clothing outside the McCann apartment when he set out for his walk (so around 8.30 pm) and another witness noticed a similar woman in the same place before 9 pm.

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by jeanmonroe on 05.04.14 14:33

Esther McVey is a long-time friend of Kate McCann and was spokesperson for Madeleine's Fund from its launch in May 2007.

Esther and Kate first met in 1986, when they were both 18, at the North East Technical College in West Derby [in Liverpool], where they were studying A-levels together.

She joined the board of Madeleine's Fund on 20 June 2007 and continued her role as spokesperson for the Fund until her resignation, announced in January 2008.

Ms McVey has remained resolutely tight-lipped as to the reason, or reasons, behind her resignation - a rather ironic position, considering her former roles in the media/PR. She is currently the Conservative MP for Wirral West and the minister for disabled people.

Her own website, on which she once displayed an online petition in support of the McCanns, now contains no mention of Madeleine McCann at all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Esther McVey WAS 'at' the 'fund' when the McCanns ASKED for, and were GIVEN, with her 'approval' £4.000.00p, from 'donations given to supposedly 'fund' finding Madeleine', for mortgage 'repayments'

Another Tory MP, EM, (re: Maria M) and dodgy 'payments' for a mortgage?

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by kimHager on 05.04.14 15:24

Regarding JT and her slip didn't the PJ catch it? Why wasn't she held and questioned until she cracked because she put herself at the scene carrying Madeleine who disappeared.... It could be because a certain translator didn't do his job very well?

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Nina on 05.04.14 16:34

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@Upsy Daisy wrote:Would housekeeping not notice that sheets and/shower curtains had gone missing? Surely the PJ did a check of these things? If I also recall and I may be wrong, so apologies, was JT not in her apartment tending to her child on her check, when the alarm was raised, which meant she was up there for around 45 mins?


The shower curtain in 5A could have been replaced with one from another flat, but yes you would expect the staff to notice one was missing.

JT went to her apartment (according to Tapas statements) at 9.15 pm (when she saw Tannerman) then she returned to the Tapas around 9.20 pm - 9.25 pm. ROB then went to check at 9.30 pm, he sent a message back via MO that their child was ill, and so JT returned to her apartment once more at 9.45 pm and stayed there until after the alarm was raised at 10 pm. 

JW says he saw a woman with dark hair and purple clothing outside the McCann apartment when he set out for his walk (so around 8.30 pm) and another witness noticed a similar woman in the same place before 9 pm.
I have never read anything about a shower curtain other than the one that was found in a plastic bag at the side of the road near Faro Airport. Would you expand on this please?

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by suzyjohnson on 05.04.14 17:00

Nina, we were discussing the bag found near Faro airport earlier on this thread when I suggested that the shower curtain may have been in the bag if MM had had an accident in the bathroom. UpsyDaisy then pointed out that a missing shower curtain would have been noticed by Ocean Club staff.

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Gillyspot on 05.04.14 17:07

The bag with the shower curtain etc was only "found" in a layby in late October 2007 (after K & G were made arguidos). IMO it is a red herring possibly even planted by their suppporters as even though the DNA was not even a close match their spokesman was using the find as a reason for Maddie to be possibly alive. Read my earlier post regarding this

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by suzyjohnson on 05.04.14 17:17

Yes, I saw it Gillyspot. It's possible.

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Upsy Daisy on 05.04.14 21:05

I always wondered why more wasn't done about the finding of this bag of stuff since it's one of those that makes your hair stand up when you first read about it. Like the map and the swansea number.

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Nina on 05.04.14 21:07

@Gillyspot wrote:The bag with the shower curtain etc was only "found" in a layby in late October 2007 (after K & G were made arguidos). IMO it is a red herring possibly even planted by their suppporters as even though the DNA was not even a close match their spokesman was using the find as a reason for Maddie to be possibly alive. Read my earlier post regarding this
How very abrupt.

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Gillyspot on 05.04.14 21:23

Apologies I certainly didn't mean to be abrupt I was distracted as I was posting that last message & missed the end off my sentence when posting it (see no full stop on there).


Earlier post should have said "read my earlier post & this will hopefully make sense".

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by Nina on 05.04.14 21:42

@Gillyspot wrote:Apologies I certainly didn't mean to be abrupt I was distracted as I was posting that last message & missed the end off my sentence when posting it (see no full stop on there).


Earlier post should have said "read my earlier post & this will hopefully make sense".
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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by tigger on 06.04.14 7:06

@Gillyspot wrote:The bag with the shower curtain etc was only "found" in a layby in late October 2007 (after K & G were made arguidos). IMO it is a red herring possibly even planted by their suppporters as even though the DNA was not even a close match their spokesman was using the find as a reason for Maddie to be possibly alive. Read my earlier post regarding this

Equally, the items found in a disused barn around 24km distance from PdL were also not found until much later.

There is no doubt that these are related to Maddie or this 'find' was genuine. So I really can't see how this particular bag of items - not just clothes - would be a plant.
In particular the contents as described would not be the ones expected in a plant. I'd expect possibly some children's clothes, but no shower curtain or woman's jeans. It looks to me like the remains of a change-over and a continuous line of evidential material could be established connecting 5a, the barn, the bag and the car.
In the heady weeks after the McCanns were made arguidos, the press published many incriminating snippets which were not seen again.




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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by canada12 on 06.04.14 7:13

@tigger wrote:
@Gillyspot wrote:The bag with the shower curtain etc was only "found" in a layby in late October 2007 (after K & G were made arguidos). IMO it is a red herring possibly even planted by their suppporters as even though the DNA was not even a close match their spokesman was using the find as a reason for Maddie to be possibly alive. Read my earlier post regarding this

Equally, the items found in a disused barn around 24km distance from PdL were also not found until much later.

There is no doubt that these are related to Maddie or  this 'find' was genuine. So I really can't see how this particular bag of items - not just clothes - would be a plant.
In particular the contents as described would not be the ones expected in a plant. I'd expect possibly some children's clothes, but no shower curtain or woman's jeans. It looks to me like the remains of a change-over and a continuous line of evidential material could be established  connecting 5a, the barn, the bag and the car.
In the heady weeks after the McCanns were made arguidos, the press published many incriminating  snippets which were not seen again.




I wonder, now that you put things in this sort of perspective, whether the bag of clothing that was found was actually "dropped" at that location, and that it was meant to be picked up by someone else and further disposed of. A technique of spycraft, actually. But - instead of the designated person picking up the bag, it was discovered by the wrong person, who reported it.

Just a thought.

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by canada12 on 06.04.14 7:24

@Gillyspot wrote:The fact that the bag wasn't "found" until around 3rd week in October 2007 & after the McCanns' were declared arguidos does seem odd to me.

Particularly as "The DNA samples were not an exact match but were thought to show a "moderate" link to the missing four-year-old" causes a "friend" of them (AKA Clarrie) to state   "It potentially suggests that someone has taken her then disposed of the clothing.
"They have done it near Faro which could imply they have gone in the direction of the airport. It backs up the idea she was abducted."

If the bag was not a red herring, but something that was intentionally dropped there for someone else to pick up - and if it was picked up by the wrong person and reported - then the "friend" may have had to scramble to make a statement which explained it. And in fact, part of the statement was (IMO) actually true - someone had taken Madeleine and disposed of the clothing. They had done it near Faro and they may have gone in the direction of the airport. The only part of the statement which is a fabrication is "It backs up the idea she was abducted." And even that isn't a fabrication - it DOES back up the idea she was abducted. So the entire statement is, in fact, the truth!

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Re: Your time starts now ........

Post by tigger on 06.04.14 7:43

@canada12 wrote:
@Gillyspot wrote:The fact that the bag wasn't "found" until around 3rd week in October 2007 & after the McCanns' were declared arguidos does seem odd to me.

Particularly as "The DNA samples were not an exact match but were thought to show a "moderate" link to the missing four-year-old" causes a "friend" of them (AKA Clarrie) to state   "It potentially suggests that someone has taken her then disposed of the clothing.
"They have done it near Faro which could imply they have gone in the direction of the airport. It backs up the idea she was abducted."

If the bag was not a red herring, but something that was intentionally dropped there for someone else to pick up - and if it was picked up by the wrong person and reported - then the "friend" may have had to scramble to make a statement which explained it. And in fact, part of the statement was (IMO) actually true - someone had taken Madeleine and disposed of the clothing. They had done it near Faro and they may have gone in the direction of the airport. The only part of the statement which is a fabrication is "It backs up the idea she was abducted." And even that isn't a fabrication - it DOES back up the idea she was abducted. So the entire statement is, in fact, the truth!

That works for me. Everything that was still going on behind the scenes wasn't known to most - if any - of the protectors who were propping up the 'live abduction'. Probably on the assumption that should It not be true, the evidence was safely hidden.
So whilst the prospective Ambassadors for Amber Alert were jetting around Europe and North Africa, unfinished business had to be sorted and not by the McCanns. But also not by 'professionals'.
It explains imo why ROB and JT seem to have had such a special position in the affair and also explains their wish to change their statements - that episode, imo, has all the hallmarks of people who found they'd been used and are trying to rescue what they can of their reputation.
They were probably allowed a few crumbs, one of which was to be allowed to say they did have a baby monitor.




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