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Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by aquila on 25.06.14 19:47

@Casey5 wrote:The McCanns have both said, at the beginning, they thought Madeleine had been abducted by paedophiles.
Anybody in their right senses would have grabbed the twins and stripped them off and checked they hadn't been interfered with by said paedophiles.
This would also have allowed them to check the twins were breathing
In that situation surely anybody normal would want their kids awake even if it meant one of their mates looking after them in their apartment.
Just think, if Madeleine had been abducted (that's one child gone) and the twins had been molested or drugged or both and died also (that's three kids gone).
The McCanns would have been guilty of death by neglect of all three.
Here's a snippet from Fiona Payne's rogatory interview.

1485
“Did the twins wake up at all?”


Reply
“They didn’t. They didn’t”.


1485
“In the aftermath?”


Reply
“No,
and that was the other thing, she kept going into the twins, she kept
putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was
very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay,
I mean, they were fine, they didn’t, they were asleep, but at the time
it did seem weird,
I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came
they turned the lights on
, there was loads of noise, obviously from the
moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the
shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn’t, you know,
so much as blink”.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Miraflores on 25.06.14 19:50

If they were genuinely suspicious that a stranger had drugged them, surely, not knowing what drug was used, they would have attempted to wake the twins?

The fact that they didn't IMO tells its own story.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by ultimaThule on 25.06.14 19:53

@worriedmum wrote:At the risk of stating the blinkin' obvious, is there one parent here amongst us,who, on finding that one of their children had disappeared from a bedroom it shared with siblings,would not have woken them up to see what , if anything , they knew? There were ample adults around to cope with them once they were awake so that the Kate could go out looking for Madeleine.They might have been able to give useful information if they were asked.Even two yearolds can respond to questions,eg
Is Madeleine hiding? Was she crying? Did someone come and talk to you?

Imo in this particular case the  blinkin' obvious can't be stated ofen enough, wm, and it's obvious to me that, on discovering one of their children had been 'taken' from her bed, only an unworried parent would leave their remaining children in the same unlocked apartment while they trekked back to a bar - that was in shouting distance from the balcony - to alert their friends.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Cristobell on 25.06.14 20:07

@Miraflores wrote:If they were genuinely suspicious that a stranger had drugged them, surely, not knowing what drug was used, they would have attempted to wake the twins?

The fact that they didn't IMO tells its own story.
Not knowing what drug was used they should have taken the children straight to hospital.  How could they have known the 'drug' would not prove fatal? 

Kate also says in her book that she suspected Madeleine may have been drugged during the day, yet the very next day, 4th May, Kate put the twins back in the resort crèche and so too did the Tapas friends.  Imo, anyone who put their kids in the resort crèche the next day knew there was no abductor.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by kimHager on 25.06.14 20:22

Ok ty Petermac my brains in overdrive. Now in that position the children slept in sounds like they were placed that way on purpose. I am thinking it went something like this: all my opinon mind you
Gerry went to check on children..possibly finds maddy deceased,perhaps she had vomited in her sleep and panics.He moves the twins into this sleep position to prevent this.perhaps he had alerted RO who went looking for sheets etc. He may have carried his own daughter to be a diversion..
Kate possibly sends MO to go look in on kids and see what was keeping GM.
The strange part (one of many) was id read that on May 3rd Maddy was sleeping in the bed between the twins. Im not sure if it was true or not.Does anyone else know or heard this?


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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Hicks on 25.06.14 20:43

In her statement Charlotte Pennington said that the twins were not in the children's room when she arrived at the apartment. I think this is possibly true. There were no sheets on the mattresses which implies that the twins were hasty taken back to the room. Also this would account for Kate 'apparently'' leaving the twins in the room while she ran back to the restaurant, they weren't really there.

I doubt very much that Madeleine had been in that room sleeping on the 3rd May. It is much more likely that she met her fate a day or two before.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by worriedmum on 26.06.14 11:21

@ultimaThule wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:At the risk of stating the blinkin' obvious, is there one parent here amongst us,who, on finding that one of their children had disappeared from a bedroom it shared with siblings,would not have woken them up to see what , if anything , they knew? There were ample adults around to cope with them once they were awake so that the Kate could go out looking for Madeleine.They might have been able to give useful information if they were asked.Even two yearolds can respond to questions,eg
Is Madeleine hiding? Was she crying? Did someone come and talk to you?

Imo in this particular case the  blinkin' obvious can't be stated ofen enough, wm, and it's obvious to me that, on discovering one of their children had been 'taken' from her bed, only an unworried parent would leave their remaining children in the same unlocked apartment while they trekked back to a bar - that was in shouting distance from the balcony - to alert their friends.
Quite!
This is strange behaviour even without the sedation angle.
In her book Kate details the strangeness of the twins' sleeping positions . My eldest daughter often slept in this position, even if she was tucked in lying flat. The fact that Kate remarks on this position means it is not normal for her children.How very, very strange then that BOTH twins are in this position.  BOTH in a position that Kate feels it necessary to remark on. Do I remember a quote from Kate about coincidences that is apt here?  

So to recap on what Kate is telling us;

Her three year old daughter has disappeared  but she does not attempt to wake the brother and sister sleeping with them to ask if they know where she is
Sean is sleeping in an unusual sleep position
Amelie is sleeping in the same unusual sleep position
Sean is sleeping very deeply, even when the lights are eventually switched on and the apartment is full of people
Amelie is also sleeping very deeply,even though the lights are on and it is noisy-remember Kate's reticence about actually visually checking, as if she thought they might wake up? And her reticence about switching the light on?Can we surmise that they are usually light sleepers?

Kate and Fiona both tell us that there were 'checks' made on the breathing of Sean and Amelie.
Think about it! If one child had disappeared and the other two were in such strange positions and unresponsive, what on earth would stop you from getting them checked  and immediately?


Petermac has informed this forum in great detail about the signs of sedation and about the duties of medical personnel to respond.

If Kate is saying that she thought that her children had been sedated, IS SHE ALSO SAYING THAT THE SEDATER ALSO PLACED THESE CHILDREN IN THE STRANGE SLEEP POSITION? THE POSITION THAT WOULD PREVENT A CHILD WHO IS VOMITING, FOR EXAMPLE, FROM CHOKING? A 'THOUGHTFUL SEDATER'?

These are the parents' thoughts, uploaded about 12 weeks after Madeleine disappeared

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5jtmkXXv58


and this one in November of 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix6bKUnmOCM

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Justformaddie on 26.06.14 11:31

Deffo not normal why the fcuk can OG not see this? All IMO

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by lj on 26.06.14 15:36

@worriedmum wrote:At the risk of stating the blinkin' obvious, is there one parent here amongst us,who, on finding that one of their children had disappeared from a bedroom it shared with siblings,would not have woken them up to see what , if anything , they knew? There were ample adults around to cope with them once they were awake so that the Kate could go out looking for Madeleine.They might have been able to give useful information if they were asked.Even two yearolds can respond to questions,eg
Is Madeleine hiding? Was she crying? Did someone come and talk to you?


Oh yes. After that I would have had them examined by a REAL doctor. After that I would have begged for the best children's interviewer to interview them.

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http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by PeterMac on 26.06.14 16:31

Reminder
The McCanns, and many of their Tapas7 friends are medically trained.  
Both Dr. Kate McCann and Dr. Fiona Payne are trained to a high standard in anaesthetics.  In fact both were Junior Registrars.  

Their continued insistence on sedation by an ‘intruder’ as a viable proposition, when combined with the unambiguous admission in their statements, in interviews, and in the book, of clearly defined professional negligence in their manifest failure to provide, or even consider, any form of resuscitation or aftercare, is baffling.  

But these qualified anaesthetists simply put a palm on a child’s back, or a finger under its nose.  There is no record that of whether each child was turned, undressed and examined minutely for needle stick marks, or had its mouth, nose and throat cleared or checked for the presence of a chloroform soaked rag, had its breath smelled for evidence of drugs, gas or ketones, had its pupil response monitored, had its heart rate taken, had other reflexes tested, or was roused until fully conscious.  These would be standard procedures.

On the contrary, what evidence there is points to the twins’ having simply  been left for a considerable period unattended, and then some two hours later scooped up out of their travel cots, in the bedclothes in which they slept, and being carried, still sleeping, out into the cold night air and round to an adjacent apartment where they were left to sleep.  [3.31]

Neither doctor performed any of the usual and medically required tests or procedures appropriate to recovery from anaesthesia.  It is a matter of record that the twins were not taken to a hospital for assessment.

On the facts therefore the doctors were in serious and negligent breach of a whole series of medical protocols for which nurses have been struck off the register.  [3.32]

And even more strangely, they have admitted this in statements and in the book.  They have made no attempt to suggest that they acted correctly.

If we rely purely on what they have said, we find that it is corroborated by independent witnesses, and it leads to the following conclusion -
They would be guilty of a most serious breach of professional standards, so serious that striking off the Medical Register would be appropriate.

We are given many instances in her own book of Kate McCanns’ loss of control, kicking out at inanimate objects, hitting railings with her fists, throwing herself on the floor, wailing and so on.  We are however also given clear examples where she was not acting in this way, being more calm and professionally purposeful, going out into the street to see what was happening, having a blunt discussion with a witness in the apartment above, “wandering” into the twins’ room, and ultimately “keeping vigil” in total silence for the rest of the night. [3.33]

However, it must be said that for a normal distressed and anxious parent to behave in this way would be unforgivable.
For an educated professional person it would be grossly negligent.

For two qualified anaesthetists it is absolutely unthinkable.

If we find that it is indeed unthinkable, then we must wish to believe that their actions were not negligent, that they were not in breach of any protocols, and that their apparent lack of action does not bear any negative interpretation.

But for that to be true they would have to have known precisely why the twins were unconscious, what substance had been administered, in what dose, by whom, and when.

And they have always denied this.

But despite that, and to address the original question, having regard to the available evidence, we may be tempted to take the charitable view, and to conclude that, on the balance of probabilities,
the parents may have been involved in the sedation of the twins.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by aquila on 26.06.14 18:37

....and the following morning after Madeleine's disappearance the twins were returned to the creche.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by kimHager on 27.06.14 4:36

Exactly Aquila no concerns sending them off to the creche without knowing if they were ok. How did the Mccanns know the pedo/abductor wasn't a staff member? All logic would say in a REAL abduction you would question every one who was in contact with your children and most times that fell on creche staff!

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