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Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Dubious on 25.06.14 11:22

@Portia wrote:Kates version of the truth. Her book madeleine. I quote this for the sake of research and so in order to find Maddy Mc Cann.

"I wandered into the children's bedroom several times to check on Sean & Amelie.



  1. They were both lying on their fronts in a kind of crouch,
  2. with their heads turned sideways and
  3. their knees tucked under their tummies


In spite of the noise and lights (?) and general pandemonium, they hadn't stirred.

They'd always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural.

Scared for them, too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs, to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life.

Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet
?

Had the twins too".


Here ends the last paragraph on page 75 of the book madeleine.

Kate and Fiona had been left in the appartment, they were now alone together.
Two experienced anaesthecitians.

Correct me if I'm wrong.  

When Kate writes the above, Fiona has already reported to the police (LI) seeing Kate check on the twins.
That information, by Fiona, is on record. It has apparently to be explained away.


  • Note that Kate did not check on the twins when she found Maddie absent. Not one of all those doctors did. Did they? Records anyone?
  • Not according to her book madeleine, that is.
  • She even did not switch the light on, wishing them to remain asleep at all costs.

Question nr. 1
Are there any parents among us, who have seen children sleeping in the above decribed position?

Question nr. 2
Not one, but both of them at the same time?

Children tend to move in their sleep, don't they?

Question nr. 3
But simultaneously?
Question nr. 4
Is there a medic in the house, enlightening us if this is standard practice: feeling someones back in order to establish chest movement?
Question nr. 5
And last but not least: is there any mention of doctor Kate reporting the unnatural quiet of her children?
I've looked at her May4th and May 10th statements to the PJ, not finding any.


The more I look at her statements, i.e. her version of the truth, the more my mind boggles. Tennis anyone?
As a mothers of twin two years olds it's very very very rare they both sleep in the same position.

They cetainly would have been awoken by all the chaos. And my two are very good sleepersat night

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 12:05

Re sedation - there are some very interesting comments on this thread by a poster call thentherewere4.

David Ike teritory I know Shocked but still very interesting - keep going down page 2 they start about half way down.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-158571-p-2.html

Seeminly a photo of Brian Healy's medication - not sure where that originated from or if it is genuine?

Some other interesting JPEGS as well, not all of them work (none malicious, I have been through them all with no problems).

I cannot vouch for any of this as is obviously just the views of an unidentified person on yet another forum but a v interesting read nonetheless...

I cannot remember seeing the picutre of MBM's bloodied trousers before (after the airport steps fall) that nearly made me weep.

Sorry I don't have time to extract all the posts and pictures into one place.

All in my own opinion, nothing stated as fact.

ETA - there is also a very interesting comment at the bottom by thentherewere4 about business and money being on the agenda at the Tapas Bar on the night of the 3rd (after the tomfoolery of the night of the 2nd at Chaplins) and a JPEG that seemingly goes with the comment. This JPEG no longer works but will try and find out what it is via the way back machine (pickleson.jpeg?) wonder what this is referring to?

Apologies if this is complete garbage or the poster is a complete fruitcake, I haven't had time to read through it in any depth, someone who has more time may find it interesting to look at.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 12:06

@PeterMac wrote:Both doctors, each of whom is a qualified anaesthetist, failed to address the simplest but the most important questions.
Why can they not be roused ?  
And then -
Given that they cannot be roused, what procedure, and / or what substance has been used to sedate these two children to this extent ?  

We now know that any sedation must have been administered within 1 minute and 20 seconds, in a narrow time window between Gerry McCann’s leaving the apartment, and Jane Tanner’s seeing the abductor carrying Madeleine, so obviously the substance was extremely fast acting, and very powerful.

The two anaesthetists did not have that information, but must nevertheless have believed that sedation had occurred within the previous half hour.

So what precisely did the two anaesthetists assume had been used, and how did they suppose it had been administered ?
Why did they accept that the dosage had been exactly correct for children of this age and size ?
Was it still being absorbed and was the level in the tissues still increasing ?   Were they coming round, or were they drifting into even deeper level of unconsciousness, coma, and possible death ?
What were the likely or possible side effects - vomiting, breathing difficulties, lung congestion, ventricular or atrial fibrillation, brain damage, liver or kidney failure, or any of the many other possible sequelae that both will have studied at length and been examined on in detail.
What precisely did they identify or diagnose ?

Medical Note for non-medical readers

There are five routes for the administration of sedation.  
* Injection
* By mouth
* Inhalation of anaesthetic gas
being the three most usual.

Observation.
Jane Tanner’s description of the “abductor’ did not include anaesthetic equipment or gas cylinders, nor even a back pack in which they might be carried, and nothing was found in the apartment or the immediate surrounding area.

Reminder
The McCanns, and many of their Tapas7 friends are medically trained.  
Both Dr. Kate McCann and Dr. Fiona Payne are trained to a high standard in anaesthetics.  In fact both were Junior Registrars.  

Their continued insistence on sedation by an ‘intruder’ as a viable proposition, when combined with the unambiguous admission in their statements, in interviews, and in the book, of clearly defined professional negligence in their manifest failure to provide, or even consider, any form of resuscitation or aftercare, is baffling.  

But these qualified anaesthetists simply put a palm on a child’s back, or a finger under its nose.  There is no record that of whether each child was turned, undressed and examined minutely for needle stick marks, or had its mouth, nose and throat cleared or checked for the presence of a chloroform soaked rag, had its breath smelled for evidence of drugs, gas or ketones, had its pupil response monitored, had its heart rate taken, had other reflexes tested, or was roused until fully conscious.  These would be standard procedures.

On the contrary, what evidence there is points to the twins’ having simply been left for a considerable period unattended, and then some two hours later scooped up out of their travel cots, in the bedclothes in which they slept, and being carried, still sleeping, out into the cold night air and round to an adjacent apartment where they were left to sleep.

We are given many instances in her own book of Kate McCanns’ loss of control, kicking out at inanimate objects, hitting railings with her fists, throwing herself on the floor, wailing and so on.  We are however also given clear examples where she was not acting in this way, being more calm and professionally purposeful, going out into the street to see what was happening, having a blunt discussion with a witness in the apartment above, “wandering” into the twins’ room, and ultimately “keeping vigil” in total silence for the rest of the night.

However, it must be said that for a normal distressed and anxious parent to behave in this way would be unforgivable.
For an educated professional person it would be grossly negligent.
For two qualified anaesthetists it is absolutely unthinkable.

If we find that it is indeed unthinkable, then we must wish to believe that their actions were not negligent, that they were not in breach of any protocols, and that their apparent lack of action does not bear any negative interpretation.

But for that to be true they would have to have known precisely why the twins were unconscious, what substance had been administered, in what dose, by whom, and when.

And they have always denied this.

Great post. And how telling. My purported theory on reading that:

This tells me that Kate was checking as she knew sedation had taken place on her children that night. In one case, this had led to a terrible consequence for one of them. So she needed to check to make sure the same fate did not follow for the other two.

To me, this means she was worried about the administration of the doses that night. One had led to fatal consequences, could the others? Was something wrong with either the drug or the dose for all three? She had no idea so she panicked and kept checking throughout the night.

The point of this is that this would indicate that Madeleine's fate occurred that night, rather than at an earlier date. If you'd lost your child due to events earlier, you would be very very careful about losing another so would be certain that any subsequent nights would be sedative-free. So there would be no need for her to check the twins in this way. However, there was a need, because the twins were sedated in the 3rd, as evidenced by their solid sleeping throughout the events and Kate's need to keep checking breathing.

This indicates Kate knew what happened to Madeleine was probably as the result of sedatives given that night, hence the checking of the twins to ensure the same fate hadn't befallen them. Therefore the events all happened on the 3rd after all.

Confused, because I'd come to the conclusion that death probably happened earlier in the week. All just theory and speculation.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by HelenMeg on 25.06.14 12:29

Oh - I just thought that the twins were sedated due to the charade that was going to be played out that evening to  enable the 'abduction'.

It would have been really difficulty ensuring the charade went well if the twins were waking up and crying every 5 mins.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by BlueBag on 25.06.14 12:31

Sounds like the children were already in the recovery position in case of vomiting.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by fossey on 25.06.14 12:34

@HelenMeg wrote:Oh - I just thought that the twins were sedated due to the charade that was going to be played out that evening to  enable the 'abduction'.

It would have been really difficulty ensuring the charade went well if the twins were waking up and crying every 5 mins.
Yep - I agree with that as well.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 12:39

BlackCatBoogie wrote:Re sedation - there are some very interesting comments on this thread by a poster call thentherewere4.

David Ike teritory I know Shocked but still very interesting - keep going down page 2 they start about half way down.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-158571-p-2.html

Seeminly a photo of Brian Healy's medication - not sure where that originated from or if it is genuine?

Some other interesting JPEGS as well, not all of them work (none malicious, I have been through them all with no problems).

I cannot vouch for any of this as is obviously just the views of an unidentified person on yet another forum but a v interesting read nonetheless...

I cannot remember seeing the picutre of MBM's bloodied trousers before (after the airport steps fall) that nearly made me weep.

Sorry I don't have time to extract all the posts and pictures into one place.

All in my own opinion, nothing stated as fact.

ETA - there is also a very interesting comment at the bottom by thentherewere4 about business and money being on the agenda at the Tapas Bar on the night of the 3rd (after the tomfoolery of the night of the 2nd at Chaplins) and a JPEG that seemingly goes with the comment. This JPEG no longer works but will try and find out what it is via the way back machine (pickleson.jpeg?) wonder what this is referring to?

 


Another great find, BCB. Mods, are we allowed to reproduce those posts here?



Here is that shocking picture. Surely, this can't be the result of the trip up the steps? That picture was allegedly taken on the same day, the Saturday. Why didn't they clean her up on arrival? Perhaps she's fallen in the playground?

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by fossey on 25.06.14 12:49

Is there an original link anywhere to the same photo?

What I mean is. Not one via a David Icke Forum.

Very disturbing if the authenticity of this picture is true.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Justformaddie on 25.06.14 12:49

Is it possible they could be flower designs?

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 12:54

@HelenMeg wrote:Oh - I just thought that the twins were sedated due to the charade that was going to be played out that evening to  enable the 'abduction'.

It would have been really difficulty ensuring the charade went well if the twins were waking up and crying every 5 mins.

You could be right. But surely ensure the dosage so you'd be 100% confident in their wellbeing, and so wouldn't bring attention to the possibility of sedation by the constant checking?

It just smacks to me of Kate panicking because she was worried that something had gone wrong with the sedation that night and she wasn't sure of the impact of that on the twins. If sedation was a regular occurrence, Kate would be familiar and comfortable with this and therefore would not have the need to check breathing.

Or perhaps she wasn't familiar with the children being sedated so was nervous, as the sedation was for that one night only?

More and more questions, as ever.   i don\'t know 


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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 12:58

I have seen clearer versions of this picture and there definitely is a design - it looks more like hearts than flowers to me.

However the trousers also look a bit damp to me - perhaps the result of playing in damp grass?

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 12:59

@fossey wrote:Is there an original link anywhere to the same photo?

What I mean is. Not one via a David Icke Forum.

Very disturbing if the authenticity of this picture is true.

I know. I wondered at the provenance, could photoshopping have enhanced the blood? I'm sure there are unscrupulous 'antis' as well as 'pros'.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by fossey on 25.06.14 13:03

Dee Coy wrote:
@fossey wrote:Is there an original link anywhere to the same photo?

What I mean is. Not one via a David Icke Forum.

Very disturbing if the authenticity of this picture is true.

I know. I wondered at the provenance, could photoshopping have enhanced the blood? I'm sure there are unscrupulous 'antis' as well as 'pros'.
To be honest - I can't actually make out that it is blood after several more looks at it.

As NFWTD suggested above. Could it not simply be stains from crawling about on her knee's whilst playing..

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 13:12

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I have seen clearer versions of this picture and there definitely is a design - it looks more like hearts than flowers to me.

However the trousers also look a bit damp to me - perhaps the result of playing in damp grass?




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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by fossey on 25.06.14 13:15

Poe wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I have seen clearer versions of this picture and there definitely is a design - it looks more like hearts than flowers to me.

However the trousers also look a bit damp to me - perhaps the result of playing in damp grass?



That little girl doesn't even look like Madeleine to me.

Or that is Madeleine and the other pics are not of her.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 13:35

Thanks, Poe. Your comparison does make it look as if the 'Ike' photo ie enhanced. Even the 'graze' under the hole on the left knee looks dubious.

Mods, if you think the Ike-sourced photo is mischievous, please delete it. Thank you.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by juliet on 25.06.14 13:46

Her whole outfit looks scruffy and dirty as so often for that poor child. But these weren't the falling-on-the-steps trousers, iirc. The minibus film shows trousers which ended mid-calf.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 14:03

Sorry to post and run like that - the phone went.

I did a reverse image search and got the full photo from the mccannfiles site.

That photo has the same low wall and white wall as round the pool area of the OC and, by the look of the vines climbing the white wall behind Madeleine, that bougainvillea doesn't look like it was planning to sprout leaves let alone flowers (bracts?) anytime soon imo.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 14:27

Dee Coy wrote:
BlackCatBoogie wrote:Re sedation - there are some very interesting comments on this thread by a poster call thentherewere4.

David Ike teritory I know Shocked but still very interesting - keep going down page 2 they start about half way down.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-158571-p-2.html

Seeminly a photo of Brian Healy's medication - not sure where that originated from or if it is genuine?

Some other interesting JPEGS as well, not all of them work (none malicious, I have been through them all with no problems).

I cannot vouch for any of this as is obviously just the views of an unidentified person on yet another forum but a v interesting read nonetheless...

I cannot remember seeing the picutre of MBM's bloodied trousers before (after the airport steps fall) that nearly made me weep.

Sorry I don't have time to extract all the posts and pictures into one place.

All in my own opinion, nothing stated as fact.

ETA - there is also a very interesting comment at the bottom by thentherewere4 about business and money being on the agenda at the Tapas Bar on the night of the 3rd (after the tomfoolery of the night of the 2nd at Chaplins) and a JPEG that seemingly goes with the comment. This JPEG no longer works but will try and find out what it is via the way back machine (pickleson.jpeg?) wonder what this is referring to?

 


Another great find, BCB. Mods, are we allowed to reproduce those posts here?



Here is that shocking picture. Surely, this can't be the result of the trip up the steps? That picture was allegedly taken on the same day, the Saturday. Why didn't they clean her up on arrival? Perhaps she's fallen in the playground?

I have checked the video and it appears that although MBM has pink trousers on they were 3/4 length and not full-length (unless they were rolled up) so I don't think they are the airport trousers.  Yes could be the flower pattern with a few rips/mud?  Don't have time to check now but will find the rest of the existing photos similar to this - I seem to recall seeing similar but not the apparent marks on her trousers legs.

ETA looking at the two pics (thanks NFWTD), the clearer one does not seem to show any cuts, it is just the trousers pattern - all looks fairly normal for a child of that age.
I would treat these comments with a huge pinch of salt (even more as the trousers picture seems to be misleading) but it is still an interesting read.
Apologies if I have mislead/wasted time - this thread seemed interesting but I have not had time to check ANY of it out.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by canada12 on 25.06.14 15:00

Agreed that the trousers on the airplane steps video and showing Madeleine on the transfer bus are both three-quarter length trousers. NOT these longer trousers.

Agreed that the longer trousers have patches on their knees which show a design.

Agreed that there are no bloodstains. The whole "blood" scenario was, IMO, invented by Gerry to explain why there might be traces of Madeleine's blood in the apartment. The airplane steps video shows Madeleine stumbling. Not hard enough to cause any injury, IMO.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 16:46

@Portia wrote:Kates version of the truth. Her book madeleine. I quote this for the sake of research and so in order to find Maddy Mc Cann.

"I wandered into the children's bedroom several times to check on Sean & Amelie.



  1. They were both lying on their fronts in a kind of crouch,
  2. with their heads turned sideways and
  3. their knees tucked under their tummies


In spite of the noise and lights (?) and general pandemonium, they hadn't stirred.

They'd always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural.

Scared for them, too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs, to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life.

Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet
?

Had the twins too".


Here ends the last paragraph on page 75 of the book madeleine.

Kate and Fiona had been left in the appartment, they were now alone together.
Two experienced anaesthecitians.
This is actually quite shocking. (red)
Any qualified doctor, particularly one with anaesthetic training should know that the way to assess respiratory problems  in a child is to check for abdominal breathing and intercostal muscle recession, not by feeling their backs. They didn't even turn on the light to assess the colour of the twins. They were left on their fronts in a dark room. But even after feeling their backs for movement they didn't count their respiratory rate. 

Was KM being a neglectful parent and a negligent doctor? 
Or was there a reason why she wasn't really worried about the twins.
Remembering that for two children to be in the same condition does make you think that it was probably an external factor.

But she would have known that her actions wouldn't stand up to scrutiny. Why did she write this?

Add this to MO's statement regarding his "check" where he was very keen to point out that HE could see the twins breathing ok.
(in the dark, across the room through the mesh sides of the cots, one of which was obscured).

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by PeterMac on 25.06.14 17:44

A number of other points surely present themselves for further comment.

The strange way in which the children were lying, though this is not unusual
The fact that both were lying in the same way
The fact that “despite the noise and pandemonium they hadn’t stirred” still less woken.
Kate describing this as “unnatural”.
Kate placing the palms of hands on their backs, to check for “chest movement”.
Her use of the phrase “. . .basically, for sign of life”
Her thoughts “Had the twins too  [been given some kind of sedative]  ?”

For many people this passage will sound quite extraordinary.   Doctors, nurses, police officers, ambulance crews, fire officers, paramedics, St John Ambulance staff, and many others are taught in their basic training about the importance of rousing people.   Drunks, drug addicts, people with head injuries, and those who have suffered smoke inhalation are roused, and in some cases are to be shaken into consciousness.  Failure to rouse a patient should lead to immediate medical assistance being sought, or transportation to the nearest casualty department.

Failure regularly to rouse someone in a police cell is a very serious disciplinary offence, the penalty for which may be dismissal from the service.

It is frankly not good enough to “place the palm of a hand on [a child’s] back, to check. . . basically for signs of life”.   [3.26]  

The Royal College of Nursing is quite clear about this.
In “Standards for assessing, measuring and monitoring vital signs in infants, children and young people - RCN guidance for children’s nurses and nurses working with children and young people”    
they say, very simply
Infants and children less than six to seven years of
age are predominantly abdominal breathers
therefore, abdominal movements should be counted.
They emphasise “the particular vulnerability of infants and young children to rapid physiological deterioration”  
And later discussing recovery room protocols
• following a simple procedure – vital signs should be recorded every 30 minutes for two hours, then hourly for two to four hours until the child is fully awake, eating and drinking.   [3.27]

When we add to this the curious way the children were lying, on their fronts in a kind of crouch, with their heads turned sideways and their knees tucked under their tummies.“  which clearly must restrict the abdominal breathing in a child of that age, the failure by the parents or the other anaesthetist present to modify this posture is very difficult to understand.

Levels of sedation are assessed according to the Ramsay Sedation Scale (RSS)
1   Patient is anxious and agitated or restless, or both
2   Patient is cooperative, oriented and tranquil
3   Patient responds to commands only
4   Patient exhibits brisk response to light glabellar (forehead) tap or loud auditory stimulus
5   Patient exhibits a sluggish response to light glabellar tap or loud auditory stimulus
6   Patient exhibits no response     [3.28]

The twins are clearly in point 6 on the scale. They are failing to respond to external stimuli, cold, light, noise - including screaming, the inevitable jolting of the cots placed so close together in a small room during the search and window / shutter procedures, human touch, and then being picked out of their cots by persons not their parents, taken outdoors into the dark and cold air, into the light and warmth of a neighbouring apartment, where they are placed in different cots.

it is hard to believe that neither parent would have picked them up, but there is no evidence that they did.   It is also worthy of note that Dr. Fiona Payne was with Kate McCann at this time.  It seems no one was with the twins.
Although it is capable of interpretation this piece is placed in the narrative of the book around 11:00pm, an hour after the discovery.  It is placed between the incident when both Kate and Fiona Payne shout “something short and to the point” at Mrs Fenn, and the arrival of the police at 11:10pm.   [3.29]

Kate herself states
p. 74   “He’d  [Gerry had]  asked Fiona to stay with me.  I was in our bedroom, on my knees beside the bed, just praying and praying and praying. . . “   [3.30]

The next paragraph talks of Kate’s “sitting on the bed”  whilst Emma Knights from Mark Warner came in, and then goes on to talk about Kate’s being out on the veranda when another woman appeared, and so on.
In other words neither doctor was in the twins’ room performing any clinical checks for vital signs, or carrying out any procedures for rousing them.

3.26 “I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life.”

3.27 The pattern, effort and rate of breathing should be observed.
• Skin colour, pallour, mottling, cyanosis and any traumatic petechiae around the eyelids, face and neck should be observed.
• Infants and children less than six to seven years of age are predominantly abdominal breathers therefore, abdominal movements should be counted.
• Signs of respiratory distress e.g. nasal flaring, grunting, wheezing, stridor, dyspnoea, recession, use of accessory and intercostal muscles, chest shape and movement should be noted by looking and listening.
• Respirations should be counted for one minute.
• The frequency of respiratory assessment and measurement should be increased during opiate infusions or in respect of any other drug which may cause hyperventilation or apnoea, for example, prostaglandin infusion.
. . .
• following a simple procedure – vital signs should be recorded every 30 minutes for two hours, then hourly for two to four hours until the child is fully awake, eating and drinking. It can be good practice to include pulse oximetry and an assessment of capillary refill time. A temperature should be recorded once and at intervals of one, two or four hours according to the infant, child or young
person’s general condition. A further set of vital signs should be recorded prior to discharge

3.28 Levels of sedation are assessed according to the The Ramsay Sedation Scale. RSS. This was the first scale to be defined for sedated patients and was designed as a test of rousability. The RSS scores sedation at six different levels, according to how rousable the patient is. It is an intuitively obvious scale and therefore lends itself to universal use, not only in the ICU, but wherever sedative drugs or narcotics are given. It can be added to the pain score and be considered the sixth vital sign.
Ramsay Sedation Scale
1   Patient is anxious and agitated or restless, or both
2   Patient is cooperative, oriented and tranquil
3   Patient responds to commands only
4   Patient exhibits brisk response to light glabellar (forehead) tap or loud auditory stimulus
5   Patient exhibits a sluggish response to light glabellar tap or loud auditory stimulus
6   Patient exhibits no response    

3.29 “Then a lady appeared on a balcony - I’m fairly sure this was about 11pm, before the police arrived - . . . .I wandered into the children’s room . . . . It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town Lagos . . .”

3.30 “He’d  [Gerry had]  asked Fiona to stay with me.  I was in our bedroom, on my knees beside the bed, just praying and praying and praying. . . “

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by worriedmum on 25.06.14 18:44

At the risk of stating the blinkin' obvious, is there one parent here amongst us,who, on finding that one of their children had disappeared from a bedroom it shared with siblings,would not have woken them up to see what , if anything , they knew? There were ample adults around to cope with them once they were awake so that the Kate could go out looking for Madeleine.They might have been able to give useful information if they were asked.Even two yearolds can respond to questions,eg
Is Madeleine hiding? Was she crying? Did someone come and talk to you?

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Guest on 25.06.14 19:05

@worriedmum wrote:At the risk of stating the blinkin' obvious, is there one parent here amongst us,who, on finding that one of their children had disappeared from a bedroom it shared with siblings,would not have woken them up to see what , if anything , they knew? There were ample adults around to cope with them once they were awake so that the Kate could go out looking for Madeleine.They might have been able to give useful information if they were asked.Even two yearolds can respond to questions,eg
Is Madeleine hiding? Was she crying? Did someone come and talk to you?

Great point! It can't be the blinkin obvious because no-one seems to have thought of asking it before. Of course the natural thing to do is wake the other children to see if they heard or saw anything.

I'll wager the solution to this whole thing will be staring us in the face, simple clues and questions missed and subsequently smothered with a whole smokehouse-full of blackened mirrors. As Goncalo said, the only mistake was not placing suspicion on the obvious parties from minute one. Plenty of time to get the oak logs smouldering.

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Re: Strange? (Questions about sedation arising from Kate's book 'madeleine')

Post by Casey5 on 25.06.14 19:40

The McCanns have both said, at the beginning, they thought Madeleine had been abducted by paedophiles.
Anybody in their right senses would have grabbed the twins and stripped them off and checked they hadn't been interfered with by said paedophiles.
This would also have allowed them to check the twins were breathing
In that situation surely anybody normal would want their kids awake even if it meant one of their mates looking after them in their apartment.
Just think, if Madeleine had been abducted (that's one child gone) and the twins had been molested or drugged or both and died also (that's three kids gone).
The McCanns would have been guilty of death by neglect of all three.

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