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Oscar Pistorius

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Oscar Pistorius

Post by Woofer on 19.02.13 17:47

I`ve just heard Oscar`s statement read out and it seems entirely plausible to me. I just can`t believe it was a premeditated murder. Why would he shoot the girl he loved, try to resusitate her and call for help without running away? So what if they were rowing earlier in the evening, couples do.

IMO the SA justice system are being a bit harsh saying it was premeditated, why not just murder or accidental murder?

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by Inspectorfrost on 19.02.13 17:51

I think he is innocent of the charge and the SA authorities are out of order. It was a tragic mistake. I have seen nor heard anything at all to point to motive for premeditated murder.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by Woofer on 19.02.13 17:56

Thanks for the link Jean - I was trying to post a link when my PC froze.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by Olive_Boyle on 19.02.13 19:02

Wow really. I can't believe you think he is innocent. There are so many flaws in his statement.

We will find out with the forensics one way or another I am sure.


I will just say on the point of pre-meditated murder. That doesn't actually mean that he planned it but it could be that he intended to kill her in a moment of rage.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by Inspectorfrost on 19.02.13 19:13

@Olive_Boyle wrote:Wow really. I can't believe you think he is innocent. There are so many flaws in his statement.

We will find out with the forensics one way or another I am sure.


I will just say on the point of pre-meditated murder. That doesn't actually mean that he planned it but it could be that he intended to kill her in a moment of rage.

which flaws

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by aquila on 19.02.13 19:33

The details will unfold.

One thing that strikes me is why there is no mention of hitting a panic button. Alarmed houses in SA have these. This particular golfing estate is manned by 24hour armed guards and the house alarms would be linked in. It's common in SA.

I had the occasion to call on these services whilst living in Johannesburg and the armed guards were there in a flash. It was less than 3 minutes from the time of hitting the panic button.

It's also odd to sleep with balcony windows open and no security (trellis-dooring is common) doors closed.

Why not call the emergency services police/ambulance before calling friends/family etc?

Why carry her downstairs?

The link below shows the golf estate and gives an idea of the security level

http://str8talkchronicles.com/?p=30980

There are lots of things to unfold.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by Olive_Boyle on 19.02.13 19:50

I'm going to regret getting into another discussion with you IF I know.

He comes in from the balcony. Supposedly hears someone he thinks is an intruder in the bathroom. Doesn't bother to check if it is his girlfriend or alert her. Goes to his bed and doesn't notice that his girlfriend isn't there but is able to find his gun under the bed. Really?

Goes into the bathroom and is able to shoot the intruder 3 or 4 times, once in the head, through a closed door, into a quite largish toilet cubicle. That is some shot!

It just doesn't ring true.

Then the rest from what Aquila says about him not calling an ambulance first, remember she is still alive, but calls a friend instead. And why he carried her downstairs?

He has previous of the Police being called out for domestics.

There are also reports about the cricket bat that he used to bash down the toilet door - some saying that it had blood on. Also reports that she had a fractured skull.

Reports from neighbours that they heard arguing and shouting beforehand.

Obviously we don't know if this is true yet.

That's enough to make me think that his story is extremely fishy and as Aquila says I think the details will unfold and the forensics will be able to corroborate, or not, his story.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by Olive_Boyle on 19.02.13 19:52

@aquila wrote:The details will unfold.

One thing that strikes me is why there is no mention of hitting a panic button. Alarmed houses in SA have these. This particular golfing estate is manned by 24hour armed guards and the house alarms would be linked in. It's common in SA.

I had the occasion to call on these services whilst living in Johannesburg and the armed guards were there in a flash. It was less than 3 minutes from the time of hitting the panic button.

It's also odd to sleep with balcony windows open and no security (trellis-dooring is common) doors closed.

Why not call the emergency services police/ambulance before calling friends/family etc?

Why carry her downstairs?

The link below shows the golf estate and gives an idea of the security level

http://str8talkchronicles.com/?p=30980

There are lots of things to unfold.

Good point, for someone who is so obviously paranoid about their safety you would think that a panic button is the first thing he would have installed.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by plebgate on 19.02.13 20:37

Calling his best friend before trying to get help does sound odd to say the least.
Lots of steroids found in the home as well, but apparently he said today in court that he was holding them for a friend. A name would help him a lot with that one I suspect.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by aquila on 19.02.13 20:47

It would be very interesting to know crime figures for this particular golf estate. House break-ins/car thefts/hijacking/hostage situations. Golf estates have some of the highest security measures and this one boasts so.

It would also be interesting to know why the ladders were allowed to be left at the bathroom window which had no burglar bars...and why a person with security issues would not have had burglar bars fitted - they're not expensive.

CCTV cameras on houses in SA are common and relatively cheap to install. Did the home of someone with security issues have cctv?

Armed guards patrolling areas is also the norm. These security companies don't sit in offices waiting for a call.

It's a shame that this beautiful country is plagued with extremely violent crime and that even after all the security measures in creation some people still feel the need to be armed in their own homes to protect themselves.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by aquila on 19.02.13 20:51

@plebgate wrote:Calling his best friend before trying to get help does sound odd to say the least.
Lots of steroids found in the home as well, but apparently he said today in court that he was holding them for a friend. A name would help him a lot with that one I suspect.

Too true - that one will have to come out in court if its to carry any weight.

Something else that will have to come out in court is who issued a gun licence to OP.

ETA: interesting article on South African gun licensing laws

http://world.time.com/2013/02/15/oscar-pistorius-shooting-how-strict-are-south-africas-gun-laws/

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by Olive_Boyle on 19.02.13 21:29

I read somewhere today that there had been no incidents in the complex for 5 years. Can't remember where and don't know how true that is obviously.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by roy rovers on 19.02.13 21:31

Sounded like a lot of tosh to me. How could he possibly not have noticed that she had gone to the bathroom from a shared bed. Seems more likely to me that she was hiding from him in the bathroom and he shot her through the door. The battle of the narratives has begun.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by Guest on 19.02.13 21:56

I thought of you Aquila when I first heard about this case, remembering the terrible experience you had in South Africa.

Initially I believed that this could have been an accident based on a fear of an intruder but, as with so many other cases, it appears that the reality of what actually happened is very different.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by McCant on 19.02.13 22:03

Poor Oscar – as a result of an imaginary intruder, he manages to shoot his girlfriend three times through the bathroom door. He’s not related to the McCanns by any chance?

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by aquila on 19.02.13 22:10

This murder is manna from heaven to the media, the South African government and the UK government imo.

The UK press get to print things that the UK population can comment on freely. There's the good looking, disabled sporting hero and the beautiful blonde independent girlfriend - and no chance of libel suits against the press.

The South African government get to show a 'white on white' crime and all the other vicious crimes regardless of colour will vanish in the headlines which will go on and on and on. Its good isn't it?...well except for the woman who was murdered.


The UK government get to bury crap news under the sensational headlines. I can almost see the sigh of relief on the PR machine. No headline focus on real issues whilst the press have their romeo and juliet story. Win-win-win...well except for the woman who was murdered.

Add to the mix the fact that SA don't have trial by jury, their police seem to give out a lot of information to the press and cameras are allowed in a court well it just doesn't get any better...except for the woman who was murdered.


Do you find this disgusting? I do.

Here's another legal/governmental team (imo) that might be breathing a little sigh of relief tonight - Dewani's lawyers and those in the UK government finding his extradition time frame difficult to solve. They must surely be watching how South African justice pans out.

All in my opinion of course.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by PeterMac on 19.02.13 22:52

Read his statement.
Very carefully.
And consider each and every sentence, one by one. And its implications for position, timing, possibility, probability, . . .
And then do what detectives do.
Ask yourself the questions - at every point in his statement.
And see if they are answered by the next sentence, or are just left hanging, for a libel lawyer to pick up later.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by Woofer on 19.02.13 23:49

Just read the Telegraph article and the fact they found a bullet cartridge in the bedroom doesn`t look good. Also steroids in the bedroom doesn`t look good - I suppose his blood will be checked for drugs. So sad.

Well, the autopsy should confirm it.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by Hobs on 20.02.13 1:03

Peter Hyatt's analysis of his statement



In an affidavit, Oscar Pistorius made the following statement which was read out in the Pretoria Magistrate's Court on Tuesday by his lawyer.
Please note that Statement Analysis is in bold type. This is analysis of the statement only; and not of Oscar Pistorius. It is not known if these were his words, or the words of attorneys.
I am an adult male, SA citizen and applicant in this application and seek to be released on bail.
I make this affadavit of my own free will and have not been influenced. Contents is true and correct.
I fail to understand how I could be charged with murder, let alone premeditated murder because I had no intention to kill my girlfriend.
Note "murder" and "premeditated murder" are separate.
Note "my girlfriend" is an incomplete social introduction, avoiding the use of her name, which suggests trouble within the relationship.
I have been informed I have been acused of murder – I deny the accusation.
Please note that to deny the accusation is to avoid saying "I didn't murder her"
Nothing can be further from the truth that I planned the murder of my girlfriend.
He denies only premeditation.
I have no intention to relocate as I love my country.
I earn R5.6m a year. I’ve never been convicted of crimes.
I deny that I committed murder in the strongest point. Even though I don’t have to, I want to deal with these allegations.
To deny is to refuse to accept. This is also to avoid saying "I did not murder her." By refusing to accept, he is "denying"; which could be that he refuses to accept responsibility or refuses to accept the charge.
Note "in the strongest point."
Note that he wants to "deal" with these allegations.
Reeva had bought me a present for Valentine’s Day. We were deeply in love.
Note the use of her name as "Reeva", first name, casual. Note the use of the pronoun "we" regarding the context of Valentine's Day and a present.
Note the past tense "were" is used. Does he no longer love her?
We were deeply in love and couldn’t be happier. I loved her and I know she felt the same way.
Note the sensitivity of being in love, via repetition. Note in the negative, "couldn't be happier" which is hyperbolic language. This is another indication of a bad relationship.
Note "I loved her" is past tense. When someone loses a loved one, the love continues.
On 13 Feb Reeva would have gone out with her friends, me with mine. She wanted to stay at home.
This appears to be a point of contention.
By about 22h00 we were in my bedroom. I was watching TV. My legs were off. She was doing yoga. At the end of the evening we got into bed.
Please note that it is his bedroom, not "the bedroom" or "our" bedroom.
Note that he was watching TV and that his legs were off.
"At the end of the evening" skips over time.
I’m accutely aware of people gaining entries to homes to commit crime, I’ve received death threats.
I sleep with my 9mm under my bed. I woke up to close the sliding door and heard a noise in the bathroom.
Note again, "my" bed, and not "the" or "ours": this from someone "deeply in love" and "couldn't be happier"
Please note that he tells us the reason he woke up: "to" close the sliding door and then afterwards he heard a noise.
This is a very sensitive point for him in his account, and may be something that he wished he had corrected.
It was not the noise that woke him.
He feels the need to explain why he woke up.
How is it that the reason he woke up was to close a door, yet he heard a nose afterwards?
Is this his "dead squirrels climbed up into the engine" moment for Pistorius?
I was scared and didn’t switch on the light. I got my gun and moved towards the bathroom. I screamed at the intruder because I did not have my legs on I felt vulnerable. I fired shots through the bathroom door and told Reeva to call police.
1. Here we have the emotion of being "scared" placed in the perfect, or logical part of the story. This is done in story telling and is often placed their artificially. In reality, humans take time to process emotions, and in truthful accounts, often the action is given first, and the emotions afterwards.
2. Note anything in the negative: he reports, positively, that he did not, negatively, turn on the lights. This is very important to him.
3. Here we see the need to explain why he screamed at the intruder. This is the second "blue" (highest level of sensitivity) in the story. First he needed to tell us not that he woke up, but why he woke up, and now he needs to tell us, not that he screamed, but the need to explain why he screamed. This is the critical portion of sensitivity in the account.
4. "I felt vulnerable" is another example of artificial placement of emotions in a statement.
Emotions within a statement of "what happened" are found, within truthful accounts, in the post event portion of a statement.
Each statement has three parts:
1. The introduction
2. The main event
3. The post events
Generally, a truthful statement will have 25% of the words used to describe what happened before the event, 50% of the words to describe the actual event, and 25% of the words telling us what happened afterwards ("I called 911" etc). Any significant deviation from this formula makes the statement "unreliable."
Because humans take time to process emotions, the portions about being afraid or vulnerable, in truthful accounts, are generally found in the third section of a statement, as the subject now has given thought to what happened.
Truthful people tell us what happened. When someone feels the need to explain why something happened, it indicates that they are aware of what questions are going to be asked.
"Why did you get out of bed?" for example, and the person thinks, "I better tell them now why I got out of bed because they are going to ask..."
The portion of being "vulnerable" is an attempt to excuse or justify the actions.
I walked back to the bed and realised Reeva was not in bed. Its then it dawned on me it could be her in there.
Note the lack of rushing in the statement. No mention is made of his legs. Previously, he had to drag himself along, and was vulnerable about not having his legs on. This appears to be another "dead squirrel" moment. Note that it is "the" bed and not "my" bed
I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door onto the balcony and screamed for help.
Note that now he adds that he "rushed" back.
I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick open the toilet door.
He walked,
he rushed
and now he put on his legs.
Note that the word "tried" in the past tense, means attempted and failed.
I think I must have then turned on the lights.
Note the mention of lights not being turned on before, and now he only "thinks" (weak commitment) he turned them on.
Investigators should seek to learn if sexual activity may have been part motive in this crime. Did his girlfriend have sexual contact with another man?
I went back into my bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door.
He feels the need to tell why he grabbed his cricket bat.
I called paramedics and complex security. I tried to carry her down stairs for help.
I tried to help her but she died in my arms. I am mortified.
Note that "mortified" is often associated with embarrassment. It would be interesting to know how people in South Africa use this word.
With the benefit of hindsight I realise that Reeva went to the bathroom when I went to close the balcony door.
I trust the South African legal system and the facts will show that I did not murder Reeva.
This is not to say "I did not murder Reeva" but that the facts will show it. This may explain his "trust" in the South African legal system. This same thought continues:
I believe the forensic evidence will prove what I am saying. I used a cricket bat to break open toilet door.
This is not to say he did not murder Reeva; only that the facts will show it, and specifically, the forensic evidence will prove "what I am saying."
I am an international sports star, I will not evade my trial.
After the shooting I did not flee the scene. I remained until the police arrived.
I dont know of any witnesses in this matter, and I won’t interfere with any witnesses.
My continued incarceration will be of “no benefit” to the state. Release would not disturb the public order.
There are enough indications in this account to conclude Deception is present.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My own

my comment sent to the daily mail, i wonder if they'll post it?

OscarPistorius " I have been informed I have been acused of murder - I deny the accusation."

OscarPistorius "Nothing can be further from the truth that I planned the murder of my girlfriend."

Statement analysis indicates he is being deceptive.

At no point does he make a strong reliable denial, first person singular (I) past tense (didn't/did not) event specific ( murder Reeva/my girlfriend) if he can't say it we can't say it for him.
Lying is stressful & thus we seeks ways of avoiding the stress either by deception of fact or deception by omission.
Words are thought of a microsecond before being spoken.What is worth noting is the embedded "I planned the murder of my girlfriend."

Also worth noting is "I fail to understand how I could be charged with murder, let alone premeditated... as I had no intention to kill my girlfriend."

What was his intention then if it wasn't to kill?

Intentions can & do change, he had an intention, he doesn't say what it was

------------------------------------------------------------------


Premeditation, steroids and possible love triangle...

bold type: statements from Pistorius for analysis.


The statement denied Pistorius had deliberately killed Steenkamp “in the strongest terms," adding that the athlete was "deeply in love'' with her, according to Reuters.
"I had no intention to kill my girlfriend," the statement said.
Intentions change.
"I heard a noise in my bathroom. ... I felt a sense of terror. ... I believed that someone had entered my house. ... I grabbed my 9mm pistol," it said.
Here we find the emotions at the critical, high point of the statement: a signal that they are placed there artificially. Humans take time to process emotions and we often find the emotions in the "after" portion of a statement.
“As I did not have my prosthetic legs on I felt extremely vulnerable. I had to protect Reeva and myself. ... I had limited mobility on my stumps,” it said.
Note that this attempts to portray him as a hero, working only on his stumps, he had to protect Reeva.
Pistorius’ statement said that moments after the shooting he “picked Reeva up as I'd been told not to wait for the paramedics. ... She died in my arms.”



Oscar Pistorius, the Olympic runner from South Africa who has been charged with premeditated murder in his girlfriend’s death, says he fired a gun at his bathroom door under the assumption that an intruder gained entry to his home, Reuters reported.
Pistorius fired into the door of a small bathroom where his model girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp was cowering after a shouting match on Valentine's Day, hitting her three times, authorities say.
The magistrate ruled that Pistorius faces the harshest bail requirements available in South African law. He did not elaborate before a break was called in the session.
Pistorius sobbed softly as his lawyer insisted that Steenkamp's shooting was an accident.
"She couldn't go anywhere. You can run nowhere," prosecutor Gerrie Nel said at a bail hearing.
The shooting death has shocked South Africans and many around the world who idolized Pistorius for overcoming adversity to become a sports champion, competing in the London Olympics last year in track besides being a Paralympian.

Steenkamp, 29, was a model and law graduate who made her debut on a South African reality TV program that was broadcast on Saturday, two days after her death.
Nel said the couple had had a shouting match and Steenkamp fled to the bathroom, down a seven-yard passage from the bedroom, and locked herself in. He said the 26-year-old Pistorius got up from bed and had to put on his prosthetic legs to reach the toilet door.
Nel told the court the door was broken open after the shots were fired. Pistorius' lawyer insisted there was no evidence to substantiate a murder charge.
"Was it to kill her, or was it to get her out?" defense attorney Barry Roux asked the court, referring to the broken-down door. "We submit it is not even murder. There is no concession this is a murder."
Pistorius, who had appeared grim and solemn at the start of the hearing, broke down and sobbed softly with his head in his hands as his lawyer argued that it was an accidental shooting. It occurred in the early hours of Feb. 14. Neighbors had heard a loud argument and then gunshots, police have said. The couple had been dating for only about three months.
As details emerged at the dramatic court hearing in the capital, Steenkamp's body was being cremated Tuesday at a memorial service in the south-coast port city of Port Elizabeth. The family said members had arrived from around the world. Six pallbearers carried her coffin, draped with a white cloth and covered in white flowers, into the church for the private service.
June Steenkamp, the mother, said the family wants answers.
"Why? Why my little girl? Why did this happen? Why did he do this?" she said in an interview published Monday in The Times newspaper.
Outside the court, several dozen singing women protested against domestic violence and waved placards urging Pistorius be refused bail. "Pistorius must rot in jail," one placard said.
South Africa has some of the world's worst rates of violence against females and the highest rate in the world of women killed by an intimate partner, according to a study by the Medical Research Council.
Another council study estimates a child or woman is raped every four minutes. While homicide rates have dropped, the number of women killed by current or former partners has increased, said the council's Professor Rachel Jewkes. At least three women are killed by a partner every day in the country of 50 million, she said.
Steenkamp campaigned actively against domestic violence and had tweeted on Twitter that she planned to join a "Black Friday" protest by wearing black in honor of a 17-year-old girl who was gang-raped and mutilated two weeks ago.
What "she stood for, and the abuse against women, unfortunately it's gone right around and I think the Lord knows that statement is more powerful now," her uncle and the family spokesman Mike Steenkamp said after her memorial.
He said the family had planned a big get-together at Christmas but that had not been possible.
"But we are here today as a family and the only one who's missing is Reeva," he said, breaking down and weeping.
At the court, Nel said the killing was premeditated because Pistorius had planned to say that he thought he was shooting an intruder, and had told that story to his sister, Aimee.
"It was all part of the preplanning. Why would a burglar lock himself inside the bathroom?" Nel asked. The shooting happened at Pistorius' home in a guarded and gated community in a luxury suburb of Pretoria.
Roux, in arguing that Pistorius should be freed on bail, he said there were no other charges outstanding against the double-amputee who last year became the first double-amputee track athlete to run at the Olympics.
Legal experts say it could take months for the case to be tried.
Pistorius, in a gray suit and tie, nodded after the chief magistrate asked if he was well. And he nodded his appreciation when his brother, Carl, pressed his shoulder in support. Journalists jammed into the courtroom, which was full with almost 100 people, including Pistorius' father, Henke, and sister Aimee.
In an email to The Associated Press on Monday, Pistorius' longtime track coach -- who was yet to comment -- said he believes the killing was an accident.
"I pray that we can all, in time, come through this challenging situation following the accident and I am looking forward to the day I can get my boy back on the track," Ampie Louw wrote in his statement. "I am still in shock following the heart-breaking events that occurred last week


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




His version of events don't pass the straight face test.
imagine yourself in the same situation, you have an 'intruder' in the bathroom and only one door, you shout to see who it is first, Your initial thought is it is a family member, lover or houseguest, if so they would reply it's me you twit (or similar) you assume it is someone you know in the bathroom or even a pet if you have one. you don't go in all guns blazing assuming it's an intruder.
Also it's out of chronological order, he wakes up to close a window and then hears a noise

http://statement-analysis.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/oscar-pistorius-affidavit-analyzed.html
http://statement-analysis.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/blade-runner-premeditated-murder.html

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by aquila on 20.02.13 1:30

Hobs, a good analysis again. If this is taken from his affadavit I'm surprised his lawyers allowed such explicit detail.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by PeterMac on 20.02.13 7:48

Quite. The legs are a seriously weak link.
A bit like "Dashing" across a room 3 metres wide and full of two beds and two cots and a chest of drawers.

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by russiandoll on 20.02.13 8:50

Only just read the statement, my take on it is this:

I believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty and also am aware of the amount of detail which has come out at this stage, also of the leaks to the media.

The statement clarifies the confusion in early reports of OP believing it was an intruder entering his bedroom and not his girlfriend coming to surprise him for valentines day. The young woman was already in the house, he was not surprised and woken by someone entering the bedroom.

I find it very strange that when you know there is someone else in your room, you go out to the balcony and on returing to the bedroom, hear a noise in the bathroom. Rather than presuming that this is the person who was already in the bedroom, you are afraid that this is an intruder. Bearing in mind that sometimes humans when in a panic can lack logic, if you were considering something as drastic as using a gun, would you not shout out " who is in there?" or " name....is that you ?". It is likely he had disturbed her sleep when he got up.
If it was your guest you would know within seconds.

How could he get a gun from under the bed without realising his
girlfriend was no longer in the bed? He could have checked and felt for
her if he could not see clearly. He managed to establish where the gun
was in the dark.
A man with such a sense of vulnerability because he
is not very mobile at night without his prosthetic legs, and who fears
violent break-ins, would no way have not asked the builders to remove
the ladders from near a window without burglar bars, imo. A basic security measure.
Similarly, sleeping with an open window...I gather a luxury home has air-con?

There was something about the crime scene which made the police suspect murder.
I noticed an awful lot of detail in the account, and a hint of " there is an innocent explanation for anything you might find".
Keeping an open mind, on the basis of what has been revealed so far, I can't say with the strong belief of some that I believe OP is innocent of the charges.

____________________



             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


russiandoll

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Re: Oscar Pistorius

Post by sallypelt on 20.02.13 11:46

At the moment, this isn't a trial, but a bail hearing. However, I feel I must comment on the "I was scared that there was an intruder in the there" or words to that effect. If my hubby was in the same situation as OP said he was in, then the natural reaction would be to see if I was safe first.
That's my tuppence worth, until the trial.

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