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McCanns Hire Car Contract

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by HelenMeg on 16.02.15 10:05

@Portia wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:It certainly would bring it into question, and might provide the answer to a number of problematic areas.  If they had hired it as soon as they knew they were going to stay in PdL for a considerable time - let us suppose after a couple of days when there was no sign of Madeleine, and hired it for a week at a time, which might be understandable, then after a couple of weeks they move on to a longer term rental agreement, perhaps open ended.
Same car.  Same contamination in the boot,
and voila.
Same car, but perfectly properly a new agreement, copied, as you suggest, perhaps badly, from the other one, which itself was a copy of the first one and so on.

Damn dogs !

Peter Mac, let's see if I understand correctly.

Could this mean that the Scenic was not rented weeks after the event, but in reality much earlier, maybe even at the time of arrival (end of april)?  
And this fact being hidden by the use of a false passport and a false adress?

Could it even be, that GM was in Portugal before, hiring a car there at that time, using that passport and his then current (Qeniborough) address and, needing a car like the Scenic immediately upon or shortly after arrival, returned to the place where he had previously shown his documents. And that the fleetowners let him have the Scenic without asking for his papers because they already knew him and had been provided with his data at the previous occasion?

If that should surface, what then with the vehement defense stating that the Scenic was hired only so and so many weeks after Maddies disappearance, and therefore could not possibly have been contaminated with her hairs and 'bodily fluids' after her disappearance on May 3rd (?)

If the Scenic was available from day One, maybe parked out of sight but available, then what?

Might this not explain how the weird Sagres trip could be executed, with three (?) children and a twin buggy, within the stated narrow time frame? There is no public transport from PdL to Sagres, or is there? And even the traffic to and from Burgau.

If the car was -say- parked at Murats on May 3rd, that might explain someone carrying Maddies limp body in that direction, not leaving a trace on the Murats property. Not saying it was, of course.
I think this is the key - the car was available to Mc Canns the week of 28th April - 5th May. They were able to transport the body during that week.
Kate's sneering comment about people believing that they would take away a body five weeks later - how stupid ....  is one of those classic comments that contain an element of the truth.

Clearly the car contained traces - it would be unreasonable to think that they transported the body all those weeks later whilst under public scrutiny - so it seems logical that they transported the body at the time. But the car hire records were altered to hide that.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by HelenMeg on 16.02.15 10:44

I have always thought this is one of the best threads .  Well worth a read from the beginning.

I bet they had access to the car for the week.
I also think Gerry's comment about not being there to enjoy himself - was due  the fact that he was not there to play his favourite game of golf. He was there for other reasons.

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Page 43

Post by Guest on 16.02.15 13:01

Please note the following:

On page 43 of this thread, we have Michael Wright stating (cited by HelenMag on Saturday 22/2/2014 at 16.36 o'clock):

There are various rubbish recycling/dump areas and we (MW & GM) used these:
(..)
One area on the cemetery road
(..)

Weren't we all not a little surprised at the Wednesday lunchtime jogging pursuits of KH and one of those other doctors (Russell? I forget), because a. the good doctor wasn't a jogger to start with, and b. he fudged their destination (the junction?) and c. he did mention they went to cemetery road, which is off course if you only run along the beach as KH seems to be implying (bitten by a dog to boot)

Apparently she had to explain away an injury, seemingly caused by a dog biting her. 

Occurring at the cemetery dump perhaps?

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by HelenMeg on 16.02.15 17:00

Kate's jog was with Matt Oldfield who admitted he didnt like jogging in one of his interviews. He stated they went a round trip of 6 - 8 miles. Actually when I examined what he said about jogging he didnt mention Cemetery  Road - but he did mention Cemetery Road when talked about searching for Madeleine on the night of the 3rd.  

It is very strange and a little unbelievable that the Scenic did not appear to be hired out at all during the time period when the Mc Canns were in Pd L  (according to the interviews in the Police files, anyway).  I really think that its a possibility that the Mc Canns used it but that records were altered in some way.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by tungsten tel on 16.02.15 17:10

Ive always felt the body was moved whilst the McCanns were in Rome for the audience with the Pope . Couple of days without the eyes of the press on them . Kates brother would have been there as I'm sure he drove them to the airport .....

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by tungsten tel on 16.02.15 17:13

ooops sorry

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Rob Royston on 16.02.15 17:29

@HelenMeg wrote:
It is very strange and a little unbelievable that the Scenic did not appear to be hired out at all during the time period when the Mc Canns were in Pd L  (according to the interviews in the Police files, anyway).  I really think that its a possibility that the Mc Canns used it but that records were altered in some way.
I've always felt that Smithman had come out of a vehicle in the parking area just back up the street from where he had the "disaster" meeting with the large family group.
The GNR dogs also all led to the shop car park.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Ayniia on 16.02.15 18:00


"Last night, their spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "These reports are very distressing for Kate and Gerry - they are depressed that again wild rumour and speculation is being presented as fact.
...
"It is ridiculous to suggest that Madeleine's blood was in the their car because she was never in it.
"It was hired more than 20 days after she went missing, which means it was impossible for her to have ever been in it.
"Kate and Gerry were in no way involved in her death. Nor were they involved in disposing of her body.
...
"Anything the police feel may give them cause for concern can be wholly and innocently explained.
"But until we actually see the official FSS report, we have no idea what it contains, and I suggest the Portuguese press don't either."

Brilliant choice of words Clarence... (and also very good divination powers, "predicting" the definitive FSS report would be...far from conclusive...)

____________________
"My advice to any British tourist ,please come to Portugal,please come to the Algarve but if you're coming as a family holiday treat it as a family holiday and do things together, don't leave the kids"
Words from an ExPat Algarve resident

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by j.rob on 16.02.15 19:08

@HelenMeg wrote:Just examining for days when body could have been driven elsewhere..

8th June 2007:
[color:49ee=000000]Quieter day today. This was a good chance to catch up with campaign e-mails and phone calls after the trips to Berlin and Amsterdam. At lunchtime we went to the release of 1000 yellow balloons at the beach carrying cards with Madeleine’s picture on it and information in 5 different languages including arabic. There were similar launches in Manchester and Madrid. The event was organsied by the Sun who, like almost all of the media, have been incredibly supportive. I told Nick, the Sun journalist, that we are happy to support all strategies which increase the chances of finding Madeleine. Later in the afternoon we went down to the beach and had dinner in one of the restaurants which Sean and Amelie really enjoyed. Sean, in particular has acquired a taste for sea-bass! Kate and I did a short interview for BBC East Midlands to thank everyone for their support and it is likely that this will be shown around most of the regions, certainly Northwest and BBC Scotland. Kate and most of the family headed down to the church for the regular Friday night vigil but I was just too shattered. Tomorrow will largely be a family day although I am not sure what we will be doing yet.


[color:49ee=000000][color:49ee=000000]9th June - the[color:49ee=000000]y appealed to Irish contingent to see iof anyone had seen Smithman!


[color:49ee=000000]There are a lot of Irish tourists in and around Praia da Luz and although the awareness of Madeleine’s disappearance in Ireland is extremely high, we want to ensure that everyone is aware of the appeal and we want the Irish public to come forward with photographs of people who they do not know who were in and around Praia da Luz in the 2 weeks leading up to the 3rd May. The address to upload photographs is: to [color:49ee=000000]www.madeleine.ceopupload.com. We have also asked for people to contact their local police if they have seen a man matching the description of the suspect carrying a child seen around the time of Madeleine’s abduction. He is 30-40 years, 1.70-1.80m (5’7”-11”), caucasian and was wearing a dark jacket, beige or mustard coloured trousers with dark shoes. No major news on the investigation front- we still believe it is just a single phone call away.

[color:49ee=000000][color:49ee=000000]14th June  [color:49ee=000000]-Kate and Gerry picked up JC (i presume
[color:49ee=000000][color:49ee=000000][color:49ee=000000][color:49ee=000000]) from airport:


[color:49ee=000000]Kate and I picked up a friend from Faro airport who has been instrumental in helping with the campaign. He has been fantastic, producing the DVD of Madeleine to ‘Don’t you forget about me’ which has been shown at many sporting events and concerts as well as producing the look for maddie logo and various posters. We spent most of the day updating each other and discussing future campaign ideas.

Just wanted to comment on the parts that I have put in bold. On the 8th June Gerry writes that he is not sure what they are doing the following day. I think it is safe to assume this is a deliberate distortion and he knows exactly what they are planning to do on 9th June. Therefore I assume 9th June is an important day. 

The appeal to Irish tourists who were in Luz in the two weeks prior to 3rd May is interesting. But do you think that Smithman was Gerry carrying Madeleine? I just don't understand why Gerry would take that risk? Why not at least disguise appearances/ be pushing Madeleine in a buggy under a blanket so she cannot be identified?

Unless, of course, my theory that the Jez Wilkins 9.15pm encounter is highly important, even if it did not happen in the way that either of them claim. Or indeed Jane Tanner claims.

If the plan was for a media hoax, and Jez was 'in on it' in some way but he and/or others decided to pull out at the last minute, then Gerry may have been forced to carry Madeleine. As someone had pulled out of their role.

Or perhaps Gerry was not forced to carry Madeleine himself but made a decision to stage the fake abduction (of a child looking like Madeleine) that someone else was supposed to do? But decided not to at the last minute.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by j.rob on 16.02.15 19:19

Guest wrote:Relevant part from above link:

"40.04 – The witness who lived near the McCanns' second home, in Aldeia da Luz, who says she witnessed an uncommon fact about the McCanns' hire car, where the dogs detected cadaver odour and remains that may belong to Maddie, was not heard, either. This neighbour has signed a document authorising the broadcast of her deposition that identifies her, but fearing threats and pressures, she doesn't show her face. 

40.30 – This is an interesting matter, when I left the Criminal Investigation Department in Portimão, in October 2007, nothing was known about this vehicle, about this issue of the open car boot. We knew that inside the vehicle cadaver odour and bodily fluids had been found, where Madeleine McCann's DNA profile was extracted from, with 15 alleles. Months later, there is a lawyer, who lives nearby, who came to report that after the McCanns arrived at this villa, they saw the car boot open from then on. 

41.09 – Witness: "I drive down this street every day to turn my car around at that end, and every time that I passed the house, and I looked at the car, and the car always had an open boot door, day or night. I often passed at night, and always verified it. It was a fact, I reported it, and that was it." 

41.33 – It's important to report the following: that lady, that lawyer, was never heard at the Polícia Judiciária because her deposition was not considered to be relevant, which is strange. While she was not heard, while a rogatory letter was sent to England, relatives of Gerald and Kate McCann came out to say that they had transported, inside this car boot, food from the supermarket, namely a meat package that leaked blood. 

42.09 – The great question is how the family heard about the witness, despite the fact that she was not heard by the PJ, and tried to reply to the observed facts."

Ha! I bet relatives of Kate and Gerry came up with a load of rotting tripe! They are good at that. They would have been better off saying nothing. After all, sometimes in hot countries (which the Algarve part of Portugal is in July) people leave car boots open in their driveways, say, just so the car is not boiling hot in the morning. I have seen this myself many times. 

TM incriminate themselves - always - with their excuses. They would have been much better off not mentioning blood. The FACT that they did mention that blood was in this car - thus causing a strong odour coming from the car (necessitating the car boot to be left open night after night) suggests that both blood and strong odours in that hire car are highly significant to this case.

I wonder why that would be? Answers on a stamp?

Given a child has 'disappeared' in suspicious circumstances. And the parents, family and friends INSIST that she was abducted by an unknown person (but probably a paedophile).

Good grief. This whole case is such a FARCE. And the public picking up the bill. Plus contributing to The Fund.

eek 

Unbelievable.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by j.rob on 16.02.15 19:28

Snipped from post above with my bolded parts and alterations as to a possible theory/



-------


"It is ridiculous reasonable to suggest that Madeleine's blood was in the their car because she was never in it.



"It was hired more than 20 days after she went missing, at a time when they needed it to transport a dead body which means it was impossible for her to have ever been Madeleine was in it.
"Kate and Gerry were in no way involved in her death. Nor were they (were) involved in disposing of her body.
...
"Anything the police feel may give them cause for concern cannot be wholly and innocently explained.
"But until we actually see the official FSS report, we have no an idea what it contains, and I suggest the Portuguese press don't either  too."

Brilliant choice of words Clarence... (and also very good divination powers, "predicting" the definitive FSS report would be...far from conclusive...)


-------


Priceless. Thanks for confirming what everyone suspected, including the Portuguese police, Clarence!


A theory, as always. I would like to be wrong as I think Madeleine deserved a lot better.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Guest on 16.02.15 19:35

EXCLUSIVE to mccannfiles.com


By Dr Martin Roberts

13 February 2015





[size=13]THE CORPSE RIDE[/size]

The magnificent seven

In the early summer of 2007, a Renault Scenic (registration number 59-DA-27) was used to transport some decaying matter (garden waste) somewhere in the Portuguese Algarve. Ironically, it afterwards smelt of human death and decay. One of its several registered drivers thought the pungent, unfamiliar, odour was the consequence of leaking shopping bags, full of red meat and fish, but the behaviour of a specialised dog with a keener sense of smell later suggested otherwise. Of course the dog was not to know that another of the vehicle's registered drivers (a Leicester-based GP), was wearing the same clothes on holiday that she had previously worn while sitting with deceased former patients at home in the UK, and holding a child's toy for comfort.

One of the dead fish carried back from the market in July 2007 must have been called Wanda, so nearly incredible is it that this vehicle, hired by the McCann family on 27 May (to facilitate their move to alternative accommodation, some 1.5 km distant from the holiday apartment they had previously rented), should itself become a suspect in the disappearance of the family's three-year old daughter Madeleine.

Investigation into the circumstances of the child Madeleine's disappearance led to the unsavoury conclusion that she had been transported in this voiture sometime after her absence was first noted (a suspicious possibility indeed); furthermore, that she might not have been entirely healthy at the time. Given this train of thought on the part of investigators, it is not at all difficult to appreciate how the sniffer dog's reaction might have come to be interpreted as having something to do with the child's fate. But as we know, or have at least been told, this coalescence of events was nothing more than a remarkable coincidence, leading to a complete misunderstanding.

Madeleine's perplexed parents have asked, rhetorically for the most part, exactly when this extraordinary act of transportation could possibly have occurred, in a car they hired 'weeks later'. A good question, to which there may yet be an answer.

Delivered and signed for on 27 May, the 'his and hearse' MPV was used to transport the goods and chattels of the McCanns to a villa on the outskirts of Praia da Luz on 2 July ("We completed our move to the new accommodation today" – Gerry McCann). The 'fresh food' shopping (and subsequent cleaning), by odour-sensitive, driver for all seasons, Sandy Cameron, must have taken place before he and his wife departed Portugal for the UK, on the 29th. In the meantime they too resided at the McCanns' new, albeit temporary, villa home.

Sandy Cameron was not merely a named driver in this instance. According to a much later interview with UK Police (15.4.08) he was the 'habitual driver' and used the car daily, acting largely as chauffeur to the McCanns' two younger children. No one, not even Sandy Cameron, makes any mention of nasal discomfort during trips made in the car early that month (July). In fact, when describing the perceived need for a 'valet', he explains that it arose later on ("After this shopping trip and still in the month of July 2007, I began to notice a strange odour in the car."), indicating that some time had elapsed between his conveyance of fresh fish (and/or garden waste) and his noticing the noxious smell, 'still in the month of July', and obviously before he left for the UK.

'A stitch in time saves nine', so they say. Preventive measures are therefore the order of the day. It would have been a bit too late to start worrying about the removal of garden waste etc., once Sandy C. had gone and the police sniffer dogs had arrived, which they did on 30 July. Thankfully, the McCanns were being kept abreast of developments ("We were well aware that these developments were going to happen. We were informed in advance" – Gerry McCann). Although they had a 'routine meeting' with Police in Portugal on the very same day the dogs turned up, that could scarcely be interpreted as making them 'well aware', since it would have left them no time in which to attend to all that garbage. However, a longer than expected meeting with Police had already taken place, on Wednesday the 18th.

Kate McCann has more recently returned to her own rhetorical question as regards misadventure involving the hire car, which, like their daughter, was scarcely left unattended, offering little if any scope for abuse. It came during an exchange with a judge in Lisbon:

Judge – "Do you recall an interview that Mr. Amaral gave to Correio da Manhã?"

Kate Healy – "He gave several interviews but I do recall one in particular which was exaggerated. Where he said that Madeleine's body had been kept frozen and then taken inside the boot of the car we had rented seven weeks later."

This is indeed an interesting observation. Whatever support the Portuguese police may have believed they had for their theory that Madeleine's frozen body was eventually relocated, there is nothing to suggest they were ever in a position to specify exactly when such a deed might have been accomplished, i.e., 'seven weeks later', some unspecified time after May 3, when Madeleine is said to have disappeared, and whilst the McCanns were still resident within the Ocean Club complex. Perhaps Kate McCann was talking about the car having been rented 'seven weeks later'. But that doesn't work either, as the car was delivered to them on 27 May – barely three weeks later. What on earth is she talking about here? Well, what happens if we consider seven weeks post-delivery of the car?

Take five

Seven weeks on from 27 May takes us into July, by a fortnight at least, Monday 16th marking commencement of the seventh week. On the 18th the McCanns had their unusually lengthy meeting with police, and on Saturday 21st, the last working day of their seventh week of car usage, they did what?

"Spent the day with the kids and visited the Algarve Zoo Marine" is what, Gerry McCann clearly tiring of writing 'Kate & I' all the while, as he had done in his blog on so many previous occasions, even as recently as the day before.

So there they all were, presumably, Kate, Gerry, and the twins, not forgetting of course their chauffeur, Sandy Cameron, who "drove the children to the zoo and the beaches in the area" - an entirely reasonable assumption, although those with a professional interest in statement analysis would recognise the potential significance attaching to the complete absence of any subject pronoun from Gerry McCann's statement. 'Spent the day with the kids', etc., does not tell us who did so exactly.

Presumably they all ambled around the zoo within conversing distance of each other - hailing distance at worst. Except that being separated, even by the sort of space that exists between a ground-floor apartment and a Tapas restaurant, does nothing to explain why Kate and Gerry McCann should have felt the need to speak to each other by 'phone!

Gerry McCann was demonstrably in the vicinity of Guia Zoomarine when he telephoned Kate shortly after 1.00 p.m., but where was she when twice returning his calls forty-five minutes later? They must still have been some distance apart when Gerry called back again just after 4.30.

Kate's handset activated the Luz antenna, not the same one as intercepted Gerry's calls at all, and each of these radio masts has an operational radius of several kilometres at least. Whilst Kate McCann may not have been 'phoning her husband from the infamous 'triangle' therefore, it is by no means the case that she was necessarily standing in the middle of the town square either. Intriguingly Kate's diary entry for 21 July, unlike Gerry's blog, makes no reference whatsoever to visiting the zoo, despite her daily record being otherwise littered with such trivia.

Only 24 hours earlier, Kate McCann had taken the afternoon off (to deal with a backlog of e-mails apparently), while Gerry accompanied 'the kids' to the beach. She would not have needed to skip off home from the zoo for that same purpose therefore. Gerry McCann made his personal contribution to communications management six days later, on 27 July, spending most of that day "dealing with e-mails and making calls planning future events", until 5.00 p.m., when he left Praia da Luz and, shortly after 6.45 p.m., checked his voicemail messages whilst in the vicinity of Sagres, no doubt grateful to Sandy Cameron for having cleaned the car in the meantime.

What further stimulates interest in Kate McCann's whereabouts that Saturday afternoon (21 July) are the entries in her own diary for the 18th and 23rd, dates on either side:

"WEDNESDAY, JULY 18: It was suggested that Madeleine is dead and buried in an area close to the beach, behind the cliff."

"MONDAY 23 JULY: I got up at 7.00 and went running. I was surrounded by a pack of dogs (more or less 12) – it really wasn't a nice experience. I went to the flat, high part of the cliff as I felt really alone and a little frightened. Please God, don't let Madeleine be buried here."

Reference here is to 'dead and buried' on the 18th, 'buried' on the 23rd. Chronologically, she did not put the cart before the horse at least. In-between there was the 21 July trip to the zoo, concluding that seventh week (from May 27).

In her diary, covering the period 4 May until 31 July, Kate McCann mentions 'death' on only three occasions. The first is on 4 May, when she asks, rhetorically, "Is she dead?" The other two references are as just described.

However, the week commencing Monday 16 July was also that when South African Danie Krugel, and his 'invention' (a missing people locator), joined the search for Madeleine. Since his field-work in this case was monitored by the police, one has to consider the possibility that it is this exercise which spawned Kate's observation of the 18th, as above. Her diary entry for that date continues:

"What can I say? I feel my body's on the verge of collapse. How much pain and emotion can one body take? I had a bad afternoon. I was very worried, desperate, extremely on edge. I don't think I can take any more of this, I really can't. How much longer will this suffering go on? I need Madeleine ALIVE."

Dead reckoning

One could be forgiven for supposing Kate McCann was 'on edge' for reasons other than anxiety over the welfare of her missing daughter. Nevertheless, Krugel's work extended over four days, sixteen hours a day, according to his own account (later offered to both the Sunday Mirror and the Daily Mail of 7 October). Additionally, he was at the same time quoted by the News of The World as saying, "I spent four nights in July carrying out my searches."

How then was Kate McCann seemingly able to recount a suggestion of death and burial on Danie Krugel's part after only 24 hours, before Krugel's work was even finished, never mind documented? NPIA man Mark Harrison, who did not arrive in PdL until his services were formally requested by the PJ on 20 July, wrote his report and conclusions concerning Krugel's investigative methods on the 23rd.

This question is further aggravated by Kate McCann's subsequent book ('madeleine'), in which she describes how their meeting with the PJ on 18 July "ended with a final body blow. Danie Krugel...had produced a report for the PJ based on his findings." (p. 199)

'Had produced'? Prior to this meeting even? Krugel had only just arrived in Praia da Luz, from Portimao (on the afternoon of 16 July, at the earliest, according to Goncalo Amaral, the 17th according to those duplicate accounts in the Sunday Mirror and the Daily Mail, of 7 October). He would of course proceed to invest four days (and nights?) in his personal search.

How can he possibly have prepared a set of conclusions for the PJ before their meeting with the McCanns on the 18th therefore? Once again, 'it was suggested' offers no clue as to who in fact made the suggestion, or when.  Nor does Kate's diary entry attribute the suggestion to anyone in particular. It is in her book that she renders it just possible, describing the couple's return to Portugal from the UK as being synchronous with Krugel's arrival in Praia da Luz ("We flew back to Portugal early on the morning of Sunday 15 July – the day Danie Krugel, his team and his 'matter orientation system' arrived in Praia da Luz." p. 197-8).

Unfortunately she then proceeds to compromise her own story.

"In spite of the cynical tone of my diary entry, we were actually both quite excited about the prospect of Danie's work, though I think this was probably due more to the fact that something was happening which might take the investigation forward than to absolute faith in his methods. It might come to nothing, we knew that, but anything was better than the sense of stagnation we felt was beginning to seep in." (p. 198)

What diary entry? Kate made none for the period 13 -16 July, nor did she make any mention of a meeting with Danie Krugel on the 17th. The book reference is clearly to a conversation prior to, and in anticipation of, Krugel's 'search'. Even the opening remarks of Kate's 18 July entry can scarcely be described as 'cynical'.

If a meeting between Krugel and the McCanns took place between 15 and 17 July, as Kate implies, then why did she make no reference to it whatsoever in her 'diary'? Krugel himself alluded to it that autumn at least, which appears to confirm that it happened. Crucially however, he did not reveal where or when. As far as Gerry McCann's blogs for the relevant period are concerned, Danie Krugel is conspicuous only by his absence, as is any mention of an alarming report emanating from his 'search'; a report that Gerry would surely have found no less troubling than did his wife. Clearly the incident was of less significance for Kate McCann than the twins' riding in 'Noddy's car' and 'Popeye's boat' (7 July).

Kate's diary would go on to underpin her later book. On her own admission therein, she did not commence making diary entries as such until 23 May:

"Setting aside some blank pages in the notebook I'd been given for the days that had already passed, I wrote a few paragraphs on a couple of occasions the following week, though I didn't begin in earnest until 23 May, twenty days after Madeleine was taken. From then on, I kept my journal consistently, and when I had a spare moment I went back and filled in the blank pages with notes of our activities and my recollections of every day since 3 May 2007." ('madeleine' p. 126-7 )

It is apparent from this, Kate McCann's personal account, that her daily commentary for the period 18 – 23 July should have been contemporaneous, i.e., not overly retrospective and concomitantly subject to errors of recall. That in itself is sufficient to cast serious doubt upon the veracity of her entries concerning this potentially crucial weekend, although Kate's memory for activities on any given day may well have been suspect (e.g., "SATURDAY, JUNE 2: I can't remember today.").

On the face of it the McCanns cannot have learned of Danie Krugel's reported conclusions at the close of their meeting with the PJ on 18 July, as, with a four-day search in prospect, he would not yet have arrived at them. In which case, any reference by Kate McCann to death and/or burial around this time is just as likely to have originated with Kate herself, not with a third-party who, coincidentally, would go on to confirm her suspicions.

Kate McCann has apparently attempted, in her book, to shift Krugel's activities back in time, just as she has eased others forwards. If so, she is at least a day late, and a dollar short.  Even if he got started on 16 July, by his own reckoning Danie Krugel will have just finished his 'work' on the 19th – a day after the McCanns meeting with the PJ.

It is always possible however that Krugel exaggerated, or was misquoted in the press that autumn. As far as he was concerned his four working days may have included the Sunday of his arrival, if Sunday was indeed when he landed, after which any one 24-hour period might have involved sixteen hours of toil, though not all four days necessarily.

As to his meeting with the McCanns, perhaps that was not so much a meeting with them exclusively as one at which they happened also to be present. And yet the 18th would have been too late to announce his intentions, which were by then already accomplished. For his and Kate McCanns' recollections to coincide, they would have to have met beforehand. (The McCanns seem to have had rather more meetings with the PJ than those they have deliberately brought to the attention of their readers in any event).

Kate McCann's 'account of the truth' though is open to question. So too is the diary. Her entry for 17 July opens with: "Finding it very difficult to talk to people from home, unless they are directly involved. It is difficult to show an interest in other people's lives and children at the moment." The pair had just returned from a christening, in Yorkshire, of the Wrights' two children!

Gerry, at least, visited the zoo on July 21st. On the 22nd, the eighth week after the car was delivered to them, he left for America. In his wake, on the 23rd, Kate exclaimed, "Please God, don't let Madeleine be buried here". It seems, on this one occasion at least, as if God may have been listening.

Back to the future

Credibility in this instance appears to hinge upon exactly when Danie Krugel touched down in Portugal from South Africa, as that would determine the time of his eventual arrival in Praia da Luz to begin his 'search' ( i.e., 16 or 17 July). He did not appear in PdL that very Sunday, as Kate McCann would have us believe. That said, Krugel's follow-up report to the police was so trivial, by all accounts, he probably could have handed it in after a day or so. Surprisingly perhaps (because it again receives no mention whatsoever in 'the diary') the Krugel expedition had in fact got under way several weeks earlier:

"So, in the second week of June, we had confided in Auntie Janet and our friend Amanda back in Leicestershire and got them to go round to our house looking for hairs that could only be Madeleine's. They came up with five head hairs from the inside of a coat hood and a couple of eyelashes from her pillow and couriered the lot off to Danie in South Africa. They didn't question what we were doing: they, too, were just desperate for Madeleine to be home.

"A week or so afterwards, Danie informed us that he had obtained 'signals' relating to Praia da Luz, but that he would need to come over in July and operate the machine in the Algarve to produce more accurate results and pinpoint Madeleine's location." ('madeleine', p. 187)

If the McCanns' activity in late July appears suspicious, the same could be said of their previous movements that month.

Let's just recap that Lisbon courtroom interaction:

Judge – "Do you recall an interview that Mr. Amaral gave to Correio da Manhã?"

Kate Healy – "He gave several interviews but I do recall one in particular which was exaggerated. Where he said that Madeleine's body had been kept frozen and then taken inside the boot of the car we had rented seven weeks later."

The PJ may well have been lacking the specifics, but if there is one thing about which we can be absolutely certain it is Kate McCann's adroit use of syntax.

Throughout her book there are instances of her misleading the reader via their own spontaneous, yet false, interpretations. Take the above for instance, where the phrase 'seven weeks later' is positioned so as to qualify the preceding 'car we had rented'. If, as we have already seen, one applies this concatenation to events as they occurred, it makes no sense at all; unless, that is, one treats reference to car rental as commencing with its delivery.

There is another possibility however - that with or without the PJ holding evidence at the time, the word order of Kate's courtroom response ought to have been:

"Where he said that Madeleine's body had been kept frozen and then taken, seven weeks later, inside the boot of the car we had rented."

Seven weeks beyond 3 May takes us to the week 21 – 28 June. Although Kate describes in her diary matters of domestic importance arising on Sunday 24th and Tuesday 26th, Monday 25th apparently failed to materialise. It didn't happen. Nor did the Wednesday, Thursday or Friday (for Kate at any rate), or indeed the entire first week in July! We have to resort to page 186 of the book for any mention of the McCanns' suggesting to the PJ, on 28 June, that Danie Krugel be invited to officiate in Praia da Luz. Although the phrase 'dead and buried' is not used explicitly, Krugel's area of expertise, so called, makes the inference perfectly obvious.

Kate picks up the story again on 7 July, which Gerry describes in his blog as a 'quiet family day', saying nothing further. The more fulsome Kate however concludes with: "(I can hardly wait to say "See you tomorrow.")" Mmm.

Faites vos jeux

There appear therefore to be two candidate periods in relation to Goncalo Amaral's seemingly 'ludicrous' suggestion. Unfortunately, Sandy Cameron's cover story, as told in his Rogatory interview of 15.4.2008, does not allow us to choose between them:

"On one occasion, I believe it was in July of 2007, I took Patricia to the supermarket. We carried bags in the boot (trunk) of the Renault Scenic; bought various items including fresh fish, shrimp and beef. When we unloaded the shopping bags, we noticed that blood has run out of the bottom of the plastic bag. After this shopping trip and still in the month of July 2007, I began to notice a strange odour in the car."

Perhaps the casting vote should go to the concerned resident of Praia da Luz who, had she bothered to approach the vehicle, might also have noticed a strange odour, but who at least noticed the car boot open, day or night, from the time it arrived with the McCanns at their new villa address. Translated, her statement toward the end of the documentary, The Truth of the Lie is given as:

"I drive down this street every day to turn my car around at that end, and every time that I passed the house I looked at the car, and the car always had an open boot door, day or night."

The McCanns completed their move to this accommodation, we are told, on 2 July. It wouldn't be very long before Sandy set off to fetch the shrimp.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by HelenMeg on 16.02.15 19:57

The PJ believed the car had transported a dead body (of Madeleine). Their subsequent interviews of those who had previoulsy hired the car asked relevant questions such as had they transported dead / injured people etc. Eddi / Keela alerted to the car. Its a more than reasonable deduction to believe that the body was transported in the car (or at least items that had been in close contact with a dead body). The only question is when and where. We know they hired the car a few weeks later and we assume it was during that period. However, I believe they may have had use of the car prior to that. They had so much help from various sources that it is not unreasonable to think that the car hire records may have been altered to conceal this. IMO.

The other thing that stands out for me is when RM hired a car for them - or so that he could give them his.  We only know about that because they wanted us to know about that. If they wanted us to know about that  then it was for a reason - to cover something. So I shall now look into that... why did RM have to get them a car.. its almost as if that was put out into the public domain so that we think they did not know who to go to or how to hire a car. Like the Church episode - Gerry asks where the Church is to give the impression he didn't already know..  Everything for a reason..

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by HelenMeg on 16.02.15 20:05

The article below describes how Murat hired a car 'in a hurry' - I believe this story was deliberately put out in the news by Team Mc Cann - to deflect from the Mc Canns hiring another car...


The article was in many papers and was designed to be, IMO. 



http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/1may7/18-05-07-Mirror-Transcript.htm

POLICE hunting missing Madeleine McCann are probing claims that suspect Robert Murat hurriedly hired a car two days before he was arrested - despite already having two vehicles.
Hire firm worker Maria Rocio says Murat rang her on Saturday and asked to rent a Hyundai Getz for three days, insisting he needed it immediately and could not wait.
Maria added: "Robert said to me, 'I need to rent a car for myself because the English people who are looking for the little girl need to borrow my car. They need to put information posters on it.'"
Maria said she told him she was about to shut for lunch - and he threatened to take his business elsewhere unless she let him pick up the car before she went. She said: "There was something about his voice, he was saying, 'I need to have it quickly.' His voice was impatient, I could tell from his voice that he needed it in a hurry."
Portuguese police are reported to have had Murat under surveillance at the time - and were tailing both his gold Kia and a green van owned by his mum Jenny. Maria, who works for the Auto Rent III in Praia da Luz, was so confused over why Murat needed a third vehicle she contacted police.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by HelenMeg on 16.02.15 20:31

Interesting - taken from police interviews : http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm

External diligence carried out on places visited in Lagos by Robert Murat 2007.05.15
Officers: Carlos L. and Joao F., Inspectors.

Today, as ordered, we went to the city of Lagos to determine the various residences used an/or owned by R.Murat or his family members.
--- Having gone to Elras Velhas behind the Celero restaurant, next to the EN125, in Almadena, it was possible to speak with a resident of the area having land next to Elras Velhas, who affirmed knowing Murat very well, having given him exclusive rights to sell some land when he worked for the Remax estate agency, and that his
[RM's] mother had sold her Elras Velhas property long ago, not knowing exactly how long ago but he was sure it will have been during RM's divorce.
--- Visually checking the mail boxes outside the property the names of R.P.Harris and R.Elliot were noted.
--- At the address of Urb. Chesgal ... in Lagos it was possible to determine from the owner of the ground floor apartment that the referred apartment had been acquired by an individual named Miguel about 10 (ten) years ago, she also having stated that she remembers that the first owner had been a foreign female not knowing her nor remembering her name.
--- At Rua do Jogo da Bola - Lagos, it was not possible to locate the "Bora" café or any other commercial establishment. That café was then found on Rua Conselheiro Joaquim Machado in Lagos, the proprietor of which, in conversation, stated that he did not know R.M. nor had he ever seen him frequent his establishment.
--- With the intention of location Quinta do Sto. Phunurius, it was possible to verify that it was in Rua D. Joao III in Ameijeira - Lagos, and in conversation with several residents it was possible to determine that it was a Quinta [farm estate] owned by an English citizen and managed by a North American man who lives at Travessa do Forno in Lagos, the people also having stated that the Quinta is used for "parties" of a sexual nature.
--- It was not possible, however, to determine if R.M. currently frequented that Quinta.



When RM is re-interviewed he makes some amendments to his activities on 3rd May:


---- He states that about 19:30 he left the home of Michaela alone and went directly to his house. He took the same route the day before and is absolutely certain that he did not stop anywhere.
---- For the rest of what he said about this day during the 1st interrogation he maintains all its content. He adds, however, that in the meantime he consulted on the Internet his mobile phone billing and found that on that night he made two calls which he had not remembered having made. At 23:39 to the number of Sergey Malinca and another at 23:40 to the number of Michaela.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Ayniia on 16.02.15 21:29

@HelenMeg wrote:The PJ believed the car had transported a dead body (of Madeleine).
Respectfully snipped for space.
i was pondering on this thinking why did the PJ thought about "body" and not maybe the blue bag or something just used for disposal that may have leaked the fluids but then I remember Amaral saying they recovered a substantial amount of hairs (that fortunately some survived FSS in the PJ storage) so yeah... makes sense. still that Clarence speech is priceless,in a horrible way of course.

ETA: I realize this topic is about the car contract so please mods if there's any better topic for us to have this conversation please move and let us know? tyia

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by HelenMeg on 17.02.15 10:42

@j.rob wrote:Snipped from post above with my bolded parts and alterations as to a possible theory/



-------


"It is ridiculous reasonable to suggest that Madeleine's blood was in the their car because she was never in it.



"It was hired more than 20 days after she went missing, at a time when they needed it to transport a dead body which means it was impossible for her to have ever been Madeleine was in it.
"Kate and Gerry were in no way involved in her death. Nor were they (were) involved in disposing of her body.
...
"Anything the police feel may give them cause for concern cannot be wholly and innocently explained.
"But until we actually see the official FSS report, we have no an idea what it contains, and I suggest the Portuguese press don't either  too."

Brilliant choice of words Clarence... (and also very good divination powers, "predicting" the definitive FSS report would be...far from conclusive...)


-------


Priceless. Thanks for confirming what everyone suspected, including the Portuguese police, Clarence!


A theory, as always. I would like to be wrong as I think Madeleine deserved a lot better.
Excellent and probably spot on!

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by j.rob on 17.02.15 11:36

@HelenMeg wrote:The PJ believed the car had transported a dead body (of Madeleine). Their subsequent interviews of those who had previoulsy hired the car asked relevant questions such as had they transported dead / injured people etc. Eddi / Keela alerted to the car. Its a more than reasonable deduction to believe that the body was transported in the car (or at least items that had been in close contact with a dead body). The only question is when and where. We know they hired the car a few weeks later and we assume it was during that period. However, I believe they may have had use of the car prior to that. They had so much help from various sources that it is not unreasonable to think that the car hire records may have been altered to conceal this. IMO.

The other thing that stands out for me is when RM hired a car for them - or so that he could give them his.  We only know about that because they wanted us to know about that. If they wanted us to know about that  then it was for a reason - to cover something. So I shall now look into that... why did RM have to get them a car.. its almost as if that was put out into the public domain so that we think they did not know who to go to or how to hire a car. Like the Church episode - Gerry asks where the Church is to give the impression he didn't already know..  Everything for a reason..

Given the dog alerts and the McCann excuses which are risible, imo, plus the neighbour noticing the open boot, it seems reasonable to suppose that the vehicle was used to carry (Madeleine's) a dead body.  As you say, they could have had use of the car prior to the end of May when they report that the car was hired. The fact that Kate emphasizes that the car was hired three weeks after the alleged abduction - which would make it too long a time frame for it to have been used to move a body I think is her argument - suggests that this is a sensitive area. And Kate wishes to play around with semantics in order to deceive, as she so often does, imo. As outlined beautifully by Dr Roberts.

Murat's contacts may have been very useful in such aspects as hiring or using cars. Would be interesting to look more closely at the car hire firm and paperwork associated with the McCann's hiring of this car.

If this car was used to dispose of a body, it does seem a little odd that the Mc's would use a car that can so easily be traced to them, perhaps? 

But perhaps they have always been 'hiding in plain sight' as it were.

With regard to Robert Murat and TM wanting people to know that he had hired a car for them, several reasons for their flagging up this occur to me. One is that they want Murat firmly in the frame. As you say, why would he need to get involved in this? The other is that maybe the McCanns had wanted Murat or an associate to remove a body in a vehicle not associated with TM. But that Murat/associate had refused. 

Or Murat became aware of what had really happened that week - after all he was privy to vital early eye-witness accounts - and wanted to dissociate himself, not wanting to be incriminated in what he came to realize was a serious crime.

The fact that he was made 'arguido' and several members of TM pointed the finger at him, plus a British journalist - suggests to me that he had become privy to highly sensitive information. And people wanted to shut him up. Plus he was a convenient patsy, of course, for which he was handsomely rewarded.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by HelenMeg on 17.02.15 11:58

Yes,  was just thinking about the point you make regarding Mc Canns hiring same car that they may have previously transported  the body in.. why would they do that?  Good question.  I cant think why.
Also they have the boot open to let the smell out - so perhaps the theory of them using it during the holiday week (28th April - 4th May) is not a reasonable theory after all.  Other peope had hired the car between 4th May and when the MC Canns hired it later in May.  The smell problem would have perhaps gone.

It seemed to be a popular car - in that golfers from Leicester had previously hired it - I have a feeling it was popular with the english - I know it was fairly new. Then again, I guess all the cars would have been popular in the touristy area with frequent golfing trips going on.

But I now wonder why the PJ got it checked out by the dogs..... something must have made them do that - what prompted the police to get the car checked out - bearing in mind the Mc Canns supposedly hired it weeks after M went missing. Why get the car checked for smells by a cadaver / blood dog? Something indicated to the police...

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 17.02.15 12:32

As regards moving the body, my theory is that the TM handlers insisted that this must be moved for a safe place before they moved onwards to that ultimately totally secure resting place. The handlers would want TM to take the entire risk in Portugal, if caught there everyone could stand back & let TM take the entire can without any risk of others being embroiled since it would have been a watertight, red-handed cop.

Once in the safe place (again my theory remains that this would be Spain) the handlers could and did arrange everything else as this was TM's reward for taking that huge initial risk. All my own theory of course.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by HelenMeg on 17.02.15 12:36

@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:As regards moving the body, my theory is that the TM handlers insisted that this must be moved for a safe place before they moved onwards to that ultimately totally secure resting place. The handlers would want TM to take the entire risk in Portugal, if caught there everyone could stand back & let TM take the entire can without any risk of others being embroiled since it would have been a watertight, red-handed cop.

Once in the safe place (again my theory remains that this would be Spain) the handlers could and did arrange everything else as this was TM's reward for taking that huge initial risk. All my own theory of course.
Well that certainly sounds plausible and I do agree that there were 'handlers' directing things..why Spain though?  They were in the midst of plenty of rugged land - why the risk of going across borders etc..?

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Doug D on 17.02.15 13:14

Zavial Beach (Past Budens, half way to Sagres)
 
Did anything ever come from the Muchacho ‘sighting’ of both the Mc’s and also (according to the son) the ‘regulars’ (T7) at Zavial Beach (17.8kms from PdL) or was it dismissed as a false sighting?

They would certainly have needed transport to get there, as would the rest of the party, although quite how ‘regular’ the rest of the T9 could have been in the few days they were over there must be somewhat debatable.
 
From Pamalam:
 
‘The files reveal that on May 9 last year six days after Madeleine disappeared officers interviewed Ernesto Mochacho (Muchacho?), owner of a restaurant on Zavial beach, a 20-minute drive from Praia da Luz, which has a naturist area.


Mr Muchacho recalled seeing the McCann's with their three children for the last time at his restaurant in April.
 
Ivo Muchacho, 23, told The Sunday Telegraph. He said police visited the restaurant just after Madeleine vanished.

Mr Muchacho (the son?) said members of the "Tapas Nine" the group of friends dining with Kate and Gerry McCann on the night Madeleine went missing were regulars at the restaurant, which has a terrace looking out across the Mediterranean. "They came a lot but I only saw the McCann family here once," he said.’

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/18-Aug8/Telegraph-09-08-08-Transcript.htm

The actual statement of Ernesto Joachim Muchacho in McCannfiles makes no reference of the T9, this seems to only come from the sons statement to the Telegraph.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM_MUCHACHO.htm

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by j.rob on 17.02.15 15:09

@HelenMeg wrote:Yes,  was just thinking about the point you make regarding Mc Canns hiring same car that they may have previously transported  the body in.. why would they do that?  Good question.  I cant think why.
Also they have the boot open to let the smell out - so perhaps the theory of them using it during the holiday week (28th April - 4th May) is not a reasonable theory after all.  Other peope had hired the car between 4th May and when the MC Canns hired it later in May.  The smell problem would have perhaps gone.

It seemed to be a popular car - in that golfers from Leicester had previously hired it - I have a feeling it was popular with the english - I know it was fairly new. Then again, I guess all the cars would have been popular in the touristy area with frequent golfing trips going on.

But I now wonder why the PJ got it checked out by the dogs..... something must have made them do that - what prompted the police to get the car checked out - bearing in mind the Mc Canns supposedly hired it weeks after M went missing. Why get the car checked for smells by a cadaver / blood dog? Something indicated to the police...

Again, it is possible that they hadn't hired or used to car prior to the end of May. Madeleine's body was placed into cold storage during that fateful week, or shortly after the alleged 'abduction' . Once the dust had settled, so so speak, and TM thought they had got away with the abduction story plus 'sightings' all over the world, TM then arranged for the body to be moved to another more final resting place.

Amaral's theory was, I think, that there were indications from the car that a body had been placed in cold storage. So this would tie in with that theory. And if, as I suspect, TM considered the sayings of final goodbyes and a funeral of sorts to be important, then this would take some time to plan and arrange. Three weeks in this context is not that long a time when trying to organize a funeral (which I really do believe they would have done as they put so much emphasis on appearances and rituals.)

The police I presume in cases like this would always be exploring how and when a body had been disposed of. Maybe they had their suspicions that TM did not dispose of the body in the first few days/weeks. And when TM hired a car - supposedly three weeks later - this would most definitely have aroused interest. Add to this a neighbour having reported the boot being left open day and night (assuming this is true) and then it would be quite logical to suspect that the car might be used for the removal of a body (kept in cold storage or in a morgue or other place where it would not decompose) towards a final resting place.

This is, after all, pretty much what happens if a person dies in non-suspicious circumstances. The body is placed in a morgue until the funeral. In the UK, at any rate, it is not unusual for several weeks to pass before the funeral takes place. 

Strikes me that the Portuguese police were always ahead of TM. Didn't believe them from the word go. But were hampered by the high levels of protection offered to TM.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Ayniia on 17.02.15 15:48

@HelenMeg wrote:
@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:As regards moving the body, my theory is that the TM handlers insisted that this must be moved for a safe place before they moved onwards to that ultimately totally secure resting place. The handlers would want TM to take the entire risk in Portugal, if caught there everyone could stand back & let TM take the entire can without any risk of others being embroiled since it would have been a watertight, red-handed cop.

Once in the safe place (again my theory remains that this would be Spain) the handlers could and did arrange everything else as this was TM's reward for taking that huge initial risk. All my own theory of course.
Well that certainly sounds plausible and I do agree that there were 'handlers' directing things..why Spain though?  They were in the midst of plenty of rugged land - why the risk of going across borders etc..?
Borders are open you cross and you don't even realize you did...(and no I don't believe they took the body to Spain) bu anyway what we know:
-GA said the fluids found in the car were consistent with a body that has been frozen (IIRC because the fluids were mixed with water)
-Hairs consistent with Madeleine's profile were also found in the same place in the boot of the scenic,
-Gerry said - find the body and prove we killed her"
-There was a "recent" comment from "not confirmed" from Luis Arriaga, a well known Portuguese figure and also GA friend about a crematorium in Ferreira do Alentejo. http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t7747-ferreira-do-alentejo?highlight=ferreira+alentejo

From all the above points my conclusion is, there's no body left , nothing left to be found. MOO

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