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McCanns Hire Car Contract

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Inspectorfrost on 05.02.13 21:08

Tigger, I edited my original post. And MOA has since posted the link again from LP in 2008. re passports, it is not uncommon to have more than one if one travels to several countries where one country does not accept a passport for a certain reason. GM may not have been a business man in the strict sense but as an expert in medicine would likely travel to various countries for their conferences inhis research speciality.

In any case, you know there is no proof yet he did have two passports


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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by tigger on 05.02.13 21:12

Moa wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@Inspectorfrost wrote:Thats absolutely right Bobbin.

Going back on two points

The CAT file for the case was created alongside all other files by the LP back in May 2007 as somewhere that any relevant info could be input to if needed. I read this in the PJ files. It makes sense to me.

The passport issued on 1st January 2007 - IF it was GMs, andthere is no proof it was, was issued even though a valid current passport was already held valid until 2014. There could be various reasons for this.




Could you give a reference for this? the PJ files are rather extensive and I can't see why this information should be in the PJ files - after all, the Gaspar statement wasn't sent to the PJ until October 07.
Having two passports is still unusual to say the least. The date of issue is even stranger. Gerry wasn't a businessman or frequent traveller. Getting a second passport isn't that easy unless you've reported the other one lost or stolen. Which does not seem to be the case here.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MCCANNS_BACKGROUND.htm
A search of the local section of the child abuse shows a registration number 19309 in the CATS system. A consultation with the DC Soand from the department in question confirms that this is just a file reference, but as a complement to Operation Task system for the purpose of reference, if any investigation should be necessary by the department. No work has been done on the basis of this file.

This is a slightly better reference for the CATs file: it's clear from this that the PJ were only informed of this in 2008.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t1354-gerald-mccann-cats-system-registration-number-19309

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by tigger on 05.02.13 21:23

@Inspectorfrost wrote:Tigger, I edited my original post. And MOA has since posted the link again from LP in 2008. re passports, it is not uncommon to have more than one if one travels to several countries where one country does not accept a passport for a certain reason. GM may not have been a business man in the strict sense but as an expert in medicine would likely travel to various countries for their conferences inhis research speciality.

In any case, you know there is no proof yet he did have two passports


Gerry wasn't and isn't a political or medical high-flyer, two passports are or were in existence as the dates they were issued are known.
Two passports are primarily for people who travel in countries which are in opposition to each other or at war. The wrong visa stamp can stop you entering a country which is at odds with the one for which the visa is valid.
Gerry's work was mediocre at best. I've read the papers he's written, most of these with colleagues. It's unlikely he travelled that much, except to the odd conference, which most specialists in any discipline tend to do.
In most of Europe, passports don't even get stamped, so that the need for extra space isn't a likely explanation either.

As for the CAT files - I've set up filing systems (classified) in my time and I agree with Kandang in this topic:
http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t1354-gerald-mccann-cats-system-registration-number-19309

As you can see the letter to the PJ was written nearly a year after 3/6/07. Of no use to the PJ by that time.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Rob Royston on 05.02.13 21:25

[/quote]Tigger Wrote:

Could you give a reference for this? the PJ files are rather extensive and I can't see why this information should be in the PJ files - after all, the Gaspar statement wasn't sent to the PJ until October 07.
Having two passports is still unusual to say the least. The date of issue is even stranger. Gerry wasn't a businessman or frequent traveller. Getting a second passport isn't that easy unless you've reported the other one lost or stolen. Which does not seem to be the case here.
[/quote]
I've had two passports for many years. If you work in a country that is hard to obtain visas for, and that stamp you in and out every time you go on leave, it makes sense to apply for a second passport. Your employer gives you a letter to support your application and you pay the same fee again. It saved me a lot of money once when I lost a passport in the Canaries on holiday. I make a point of only taking the one with the expired visas on holidays, and this saved me from losing time from work and the cost of another visa. The replacement for the lost passport was just a normal replacement application if I remember correctly. They did not seem interested that I had another passport, I suppose the computer file would tell them it was approved.
I don't know what reason Gerry had if he had two, but it is quite common.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Inspectorfrost on 05.02.13 21:36

tigger it is just not true you have to be a high flying politician or medic to have two passports. And let us not forget that we cant take as proof that GM had two passports off of some car rental receipt. But even if he did, why would it be suspicious? I cant seem to find an underlying concrete thread to all this.

As for LP not teling the PJ there was a CAT file, perhaps they never asked. It only came out when their backround checks were asked for in 2008.


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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by jd on 05.02.13 21:41

we cant take as proof that GM had two passports off of some car rental receipt

He certianly didn't use the same one as the official police investigation had

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by jd on 05.02.13 21:46

But even if he did, why would it be suspicious?

It is suspicious in conjunction with using a false address with it...And its also suspicious it was issued on New Years Day when it is a public holiday

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Inspectorfrost on 05.02.13 21:48

@jd wrote:
we cant take as proof that GM had two passports off of some car rental receipt

He certianly didn't use the same one as the official police investigation had
But there is no proof Gerry Mccann presented a passport with thatnumbef on it to the car company, and again, even if he did, what does it prove?

I will say thats it s odd to travel with bothyour passports though, thats IF he had two

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Inspectorfrost on 05.02.13 21:52

@jd wrote:
But even if he did, why would it be suspicious?

It is suspicious in conjunction with using a false address with it...And its also suspicious it was issued on New Years Day when it is a public holiday

The old address for his driving licence was not false, just out of date, technically an offence
if you google you will find passports are issued beginning 1 January, doesntmean employees were working on that date, its just an administrative commence date

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by jd on 05.02.13 21:56

@Inspectorfrost wrote:
@jd wrote:
But even if he did, why would it be suspicious?

It is suspicious in conjunction with using a false address with it...And its also suspicious it was issued on New Years Day when it is a public holiday

The old address for his driving licence was not false, just out of date, technically an offence
if you google you will find passports are issued beginning 1 January, doesntmean employees were working on that date, its just an administrative commence date

Out of date!!! Only by a whole year and a half = 17 months out of date. It wasn't like they had moved a month previous, sorry don't buy this whatsoever, after this length of time it is a fake address. Why didn't they use this out of date address to the official police investigation then?

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Inspectorfrost on 05.02.13 22:01

Very very lax i agree to not inform the dvla of a change of address but i know many people who are so wrapped up intheir work or are just oblivious to such stuff they leave things for years, it wasnt as if its a changing your gas bill address or something like that

Its a long stretch for me to think GM was PURPOSEFULLY using false dvla details for some nefarious reasons, just benefit of the doubt seems ok here for me, no red flags flying


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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by jd on 05.02.13 22:14

@Inspectorfrost wrote:Very very lax i agree to not inform the dvla of a change of address but i know many people who are so wrapped up intheir work or are just oblivious to such stuff they leave things for years, it wasnt as if its a changing your gas bill address or something like that

Its a long stretch for me to think GM was PURPOSEFULLY using false dvla details for some nefarious reasons, just benefit of the doubt seems ok here for me, no red flags flying

We're not talking about the DVLA, the chances are this is likely to have the Queniborough address as this was issued in 2005 before they moved. The other passport used in the hire car contract was issued in 2007 a year after they had moved to Rothley, so this mysterious passport will have the Rothley details on it. If anything he would have used the passport in the PJ files as this was issued in 2004 and would have the Queniborough address

Can you see how none of this makes any sense?

And if for arguments sake, the PJ kept the 2004 passport then they would have kept kate mccanns too, so does she have a 2nd passport? She was flying all over the world too. But the PJ would not keep their passports, it would have been against their human rights as they were not suspects at that time and gerry mccann had just used it to go back to LPP in the UK. There are reasons why people do certain things and this is one huge red flag

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Angelique on 05.02.13 22:22

Is it possible that GM lost his original Passport and applied for another but then found the first one but never destroyed it?

Not that I can understand fully why he had two in the first place -TBH it would never occurr to me to have two or even that it was allowed.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by jd on 05.02.13 22:25

@Angelique wrote:Is it possible that GM lost his original Passport and applied for another but then found the first one but never destroyed it?

Not that I can understand fully why he had two in the first place -TBH it would never occurr to me to have two or even that it was allowed.

It begs the question why didn't the PJ have this information and a copy of the 2nd passport details

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Lady-Heather on 05.02.13 22:25

Could it simply be that GM hadn't advised the DVLA of his change of address, and that he used his second passport (assuming he had one) on the car rental agreement? I agree the date of issue is odd, but could it just be an administrative date? I don't believe there's any obligation to advise the passport agency of a change of address. I agree that GM doesn't appear to fit the profile of a person who would require a 2nd passport (very frequent traveller, visa issues etc) but it's not impossible.
Or is it something else?

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Lady-Heather on 05.02.13 22:28

@jd wrote:

It begs the question why didn't the PJ have this information and a copy of the 2nd passport details
Sorry jd cross-posted, - yes this is a very good question.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by jd on 05.02.13 22:29

@Lady-Heather wrote:Could it simply be that GM hadn't advised the DVLA of his change of address, and that he used his second passport (assuming he had one) on the car rental agreement? I agree the date of issue is odd, but could it just be an administrative date? I don't believe there's any obligation to advise the passport agency of a change of address. I agree that GM doesn't appear to fit the profile of a person who would require a 2nd passport (very frequent traveller, visa issues etc) but it's not impossible.
Or is it something else?

I think its odds on that the DVLA had the Queniborough address, as DVLA would have issued a new license after 2006. The DVLA is the only thing that looks correct (even though it has a well out of date address on it). Also remember gerry mccann was carrying around a written old Queniborough address in his wallet in 2007...why? Do those poor people who bought the house from him know their former owners are still using their address after a year and a half

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Lady-Heather on 05.02.13 22:37

@jd wrote:
I think its odds on that the DVLA had the Queniborough address, as DVLA would have issued a new license after 2006. The DVLA is the only thing that looks correct (even though it has a well out of date address on it). Also remember gerry mccann was carrying around a written old Queniborough address in his wallet in 2007...why? Do those poor people who bought the house from him know their former owners are still using their address after a year and a half
Do you think it might have been done to detract from some financial (credit) issues they were having, i.e at Rothley? IIRC the PJ asked for GM's credit card records going back 6 months prior to the 'abduction', which was declined by the home office.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by monkey mind on 05.02.13 22:51

Of course he is perfectly entitled to hold two passports providing he isn’t breaking any laws to obtain them. But that isn’t the real issue here...

If that passport number on the rental agreement does indeed relate to a second passport for Ger then one or two questions for starters (feel free to add any of your own)....

1. Did he inform the PJ of this and present the passport to them. There is after all only one documented in the files....
2. If not, why not?
3. Would the Pj have been interested to know of the existence of a second passport?
4. What other stamps were in that passport?
5. Were there any previous entries to Portugal?

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by jd on 05.02.13 22:52

@Lady-Heather wrote:
@jd wrote:
I think its odds on that the DVLA had the Queniborough address, as DVLA would have issued a new license after 2006. The DVLA is the only thing that looks correct (even though it has a well out of date address on it). Also remember gerry mccann was carrying around a written old Queniborough address in his wallet in 2007...why? Do those poor people who bought the house from him know their former owners are still using their address after a year and a half
Do you think it might have been done to detract from some financial (credit) issues they were having, i.e at Rothley? IIRC the PJ asked for GM's credit card records going back 6 months prior to the 'abduction', which was declined by the home office.

Possibly, but I don't see why any financial difficulties should have any effect on a police investigation searching for their missing child. I think the credit cards transactions would reveal very interesting and important informations and why the wallet had to be stolen. For example, there was the statement from Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho, the owner of the Zavial Beach restaurant saying "he recognised the parents of Madeleine McCann as clients of his restaurant and that he remembers seeing them for the last time in his establishment in the month of April (Easter holidays), accompanied by their three children. Since this date, as he exercises his function in the kitchen, he does not remember having seen them on that beach or in his restaurant. "...Easter that year being April 6th - 8th

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by tigger on 06.02.13 6:22

@Inspectorfrost wrote:tigger it is just not true you have to be a high flying politician or medic to have two passports. And let us not forget that we cant take as proof that GM had two passports off of some car rental receipt. But even if he did, why would it be suspicious? I cant seem to find an underlying concrete thread to all this.

As for LP not teling the PJ there was a CAT file, perhaps they never asked. It only came out when their backround checks were asked for in 2008.


I quote from your post which I answered: ' GM may not have been a business man in the strict sense but as an expert in medicine would likely travel to various countries for their conferences inhis research speciality. ' unquote

I can still see no reason why he would need two passports, according to the book he didn't travel that much, a few European countries, both of them in NZ, golfing in Portugal, holiday in Mallorca, conference in France. Most of those wouldn't even merit a stamp in your passport.
The reason I keep harping on about this is the misconception that Gerry was at the forefront of his profession. Imo his written work only just makes it above A level.
His career doesn't seem to have been going anywhere much at all. Marketing seems to be his forte however, that's been a big success.

I take the point about the visas made by RoyRogers? earlier, but that is exactly what I've already argued. The business/visa/warring countries angle does not apply here.

Re the CAT file: this should have been divulged to the PJ right at the start, as indeed should the credit records, Madeleine's health records and so on.
In any case, where there is an investigation ALL deviations from the norm should be taken into account, there seem to be lot of these in the McCann case.
If this were a graph, curve-fitting would be next to impossible.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by russiandoll on 06.02.13 9:12

I would only expect to read something this convoluted and obtuse if it all revolved around witness protection, secrecy at all costs.
All so very strange and I suspect, very ugly.

what's that saying.....the ugly truth? I'll bet it is.

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by david_uk on 06.02.13 9:30

@Inspectorfrost wrote:Very very lax i agree to not inform the dvla of a change of address but i know many people who are so wrapped up intheir work or are just oblivious to such stuff they leave things for years, it wasnt as if its a changing your gas bill address or something like that

Its a long stretch for me to think GM was PURPOSEFULLY using false dvla details for some nefarious reasons, just benefit of the doubt seems ok here for me, no red flags flying


Agreed, I have known people to leave it much longer before they remember or get round to changing their address with the DVLA

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by jd on 06.02.13 10:20

@david_uk wrote:
@Inspectorfrost wrote:Very very lax i agree to not inform the dvla of a change of address but i know many people who are so wrapped up intheir work or are just oblivious to such stuff they leave things for years, it wasnt as if its a changing your gas bill address or something like that

Its a long stretch for me to think GM was PURPOSEFULLY using false dvla details for some nefarious reasons, just benefit of the doubt seems ok here for me, no red flags flying


Agreed, I have known people to leave it much longer before they remember or get round to changing their address with the DVLA

Again...this is not about the DVLA...We know this has the Queniborough address..... but a 2nd passport and one which was issued on New Years Day and the giving of a false address

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Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

Post by Dr What on 06.02.13 11:32

jd
I agree with what you said earlier.....peoples actions happen for a reason,nothing happens by accident.

Do we actually know who bought their previous house in Queniborough?

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