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A question

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Re: A question

Post by Nina on 06.02.13 19:13

@Inspectorfrost wrote:Nina Madeleine's bed had been moved from the middle (ish) of the room to the left wall. (See pictures of the bedroom where the headboard for that bed is behind the chest of drawers which was also moved from where Madeleine's bed ended up, the wall with the mirror on it.So though the other bed under the window is near the wall,and also pushed towards it slightly to make more room for the cots, I think she meant Madeleine's bed, as it wasn't originally against the wall. JMO.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_PHOTO_REPORT.htm

I don't think either of them were originally by a wall. I imagine they were both away from the wall with a chest of drawers between them. We have spare rooms a double with a double bed and a twin. The clues are usually where the electric plugs are for lamps and the like. So I think both were pushed to walls to make room for the cots in between.

Edit to add......Just had another look at the photo from your link. In my opinion the chest of drawers that is in fact in front of the left hand bed head, I believe this, the chest of drawers, was along the wall where Madeleine's bed was, under a mirror on the wall. Then the bedside table was between the beds, with the lamp on it and the chair was either by the top of the far bed, or where it is in the photograph

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Re: A question

Post by Nina on 06.02.13 19:21

@southern_gal wrote:
@Nina wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:As I remember it, she said that one of the twins cots was in the parents room.

Here is a snip from the statement, thank you Inspectorfrost for that.

She remembers that when she entered Apartment A on the Wednesday, the parents were inside. After being duly authorized, she entered and carried out her work, because they were already on their way out. While she was in the apartment, there were no children there, and she supposed that they were in the creche. While performing her work, she remembers having noticed that the couple was sleeping in the room located opposite the entrance, where she confirmed the presence of a child's bed (crib). The room gives onto an outdoor garden by means of a terrace, as it is on the ground floor,. In the room next to the entrance to the apartment there was a bed placed next to the wall (where she supposed the missing child slept), and also the second child's bed (crib). All these beds were untidy at the time, meaning that they had been used. She also declares that in the room next to the entrance was another bed that had not been used.

Yes she says there was a cot in the parents room, now did she leave it there, she doesn't say that she moved it so must assume that she did. In the children's room she said was one crib and two beds, one of which was untidy the other being unused. Now she says the bed by the wall, difficult this one as both beds were by a wall was the untidy one. This was Wednesday morning. Thursday 3rd when the police took the photographs there are two cots/cribs in the children's room and one bed untidy but it is the bed under the window by a wall and the bed that Madeleine is said to have slept in looks smooth and tidy. I am confusing myself here laughat


So, the maid cleans the apartment that day. Both beds in the kids room were untidy bc according to Kate she slept in the other bed the prior night bc she was p*** off at GM.
Odd that she slept in that bed considering the difficulty of getting to it with the two cots in the middle of the room and she could easily have just crawled in the bed with Maddie (which I would have done)

Why was the bed in the parents room folded back in a similar fashion as the one in Maddie's room?

No she said one of the beds was unused,
quote......She also declares that in the room next to the entrance was another bed that had not been used.

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Re: A question

Post by Guest on 06.02.13 19:24

I think this is the Jacket M has on in the playground picture




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Re: A question

Post by monkey mind on 06.02.13 19:54

@southern_gal wrote:k]From the video, IIRC that DP filmed, it shows Maddie traveling to the resort with her family. The photo of GM and the kids on the playground the day of arrival shows all of them in same clothes from the traveling video.

Okay, she is there on the day of arrival.

And, of course one of the MW staff members recalled seeing all three children walk out of the apartment and proceeded to walk up the stairs.

Actually that is not strictly accurate. It would be if we omitted the word 'all' and said the staff member saw 'three children walk out of the apartment". She may have seen twins with a slightly older child but she doesn't know who that other child is does she? It may have been Maddie, it could have been one of thePayne children going back upstairs or another child entirely that we are unaware of. Fact is, this person did not *know* Maddie yet an assumption, not necessarily incorrect but nonetheless an assumption is formed around what she saw.

However, the only forensic evidence that Maddie was in that apartment was "cuddle cat". No clothes, no toys other than than the sticker book that was used to formulate a time frame and no hygiene utensils. But, why or how?

Cuddle cat is not forensic evidence that Maddie was in the apartment. In fact, we only have the parents word for it that it was Maddie's toy at al, but yes, no forensic evidence whatsoever. 169 hairs as I recall, some animal even so the apartment wasn't sanitised, some belonging to the T9 dropped during their fleeting visits, but nothing of Madeleine.

For the record, IMO, Maddie died in that apartment.

The PJ and many other people have formed the same opinion so you are not alonethere then.

I just can't figure out why there was no trace of Maddie of having spent anytime in that apartment.

If adults leave a trace after brief visits, and a lively child leaves none, who is likely to have been in there the longer?

And, as I commented earlier, GA believes that Maddie died in the apartment and the parents were guilty of removing/hiding her corpse.

But the total absence of forensic evidence as to her presence compels us to ask the question .... when? If we choose to conclude it may have been at some other timethen we have to regard the photographic evidence of the scene in a different light imo. All depends on where the evidence points no?i

But, the blood patterns found in the living room and the condition of the apartment makes me think that Maddie died a violent death, not from say one hard slap to the head but a death that lasted for more than a minute. The staging of the apartment required a lot of thought and manipulation.

Help.....

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Re: A question

Post by bobbin on 06.02.13 20:21

Moa wrote:I think this is the Jacket M has on in the playground picture



If that is Madeleine's flight travel and playground top, then it is the only clothing that can be really assigned to her.
The tennis court photo and the last photo have clothes which either do not seem to fit, or are clearly faked for the claimed date.
This means that any reference to her after the arrival and first play time, are not known. This would put her last viewing as Saturday.

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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 20:22

Cuddle Cat is forensic evidence because of the cadaver odor detected by the dogs which is associated with Maddie since the other two children were witnessed as alive and sleeping. The only other forensic evidence that points to Maddie having been in the apartment is the DNA from the blood found in the living room. It's unfortunate that the DNA couldn't provide any chronology data.

From the material I've read it doesn't appear that anyone makes any mention about the lack of Maddie's clothing or belongings. There is a statement from a MW staff member about doing the family's laundry I believe on the 5th but no mention of who requested it. Am I over analyzing this particular matter? What do you think explains the lack of evidence that Maddie was there Monkey? Anyone?

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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 20:31

@bobbin wrote:
Moa wrote:I think this is the Jacket M has on in the playground picture



If that is Madeleine's flight travel and playground top, then it is the only clothing that can be really assigned to her.
The tennis court photo and the last photo have clothes which either do not seem to fit, or are clearly faked for the claimed date.
This means that any reference to her after the arrival and first play time, are not known. This would put her last viewing as Saturday.

Good point. On the day they arrived the weather was cool enough that the children were wearing jackets on the playground. So surely they would have been wearing those same coats to go to dinner that evening and there are witness statements of seeing Maddie at dinner that night. If the picture with Maddie on the tennis court is authentic why weren't hair samples found in the hat Maddie wore? Why wasn't that hat found in any of the photos taken by the PJ?

I'm beyond perplexed here....

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Re: A question

Post by Hobs on 06.02.13 20:36

Given the age of the children one would expect to see plenty of DNA from them plus hand, finger and footprints.

Children are messy, sticky, body fluid exuding creatures.

There should be saliva and sweat on the sheets and pillows, hairs on the pillows and in the bathroom and in hair brushes, DNA on toothbrushes, I would also expect to see traces of urine and faeces from dirty diapers, i would also expect to see boogers since children are always rootling in their nostrils.

I would expect to see finger and handprints on surfaces such as the table, the toilet, windows, anything shiny, the bath, tiles, sink and taps. Footprints to be on the tiles and possibly on the surfaces of the cots.

I would also expect to see finger marks on the walls as well as traces of DNA from sundry body fluids

The apartment should be reeking with their DNA.

As well as looking for what shouldn't be there that is, they should also be looking for what should be there and isn't, indicating a forensic cleanup.

As a matter of interest, Do we know if the PJ used luminol or similar blood revealing fluids in the house and hire car?

Even if attempts had been made to clean the blood away, Luminol will reveal it clearly, even on clothing, bedding, curtains and furniture.

Even after all this time it would still show it up.

If they haven't then i strongly advise the do so in all rooms of 5a and in the rooms of the apartments used by the tapas 7.

Also in the hire car and any clothes the PJ may have in evidence, I would also have them check cuddlecat as well in case of transference especially since it reeked of cadaverine.

Any blood found would require an explanation.

The position of the blood ie low or high, direction of blood (check the ceiling as well and light fixtures since blood spray can get everywhere) type of blood spray can indicate low or high velocity spray such as droplets, streaks etc.

A shaving cutor nose bleed is likely to result in droplets on the floor caused by gravity whereas a line of blood across the wall can indicate movement aand possibly indicative of violence.

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Re: A question

Post by monkey mind on 06.02.13 20:45

@bobbin wrote:
Moa wrote:I think this is the Jacket M has on in the playground picture



If that is Madeleine's flight travel and playground top, then it is the only clothing that can be really assigned to her.
The tennis court photo and the last photo have clothes which either do not seem to fit, or are clearly faked for the claimed date.
This means that any reference to her after the arrival and first play time, are not known. This would put her last viewing as Saturday.
thumbsup
Agreed Moa.
Imo.

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Re: A question

Post by Inspectorfrost on 06.02.13 20:47

Blood spatter? I have seen the picture with numerals on the wall in the living room but is there anything in the files to say these spots were blood? How does blood scatter itself in such a pattern? IE dots here and there?

@Nina, I forgot what the point was about where the beds were
big grin
The left hand bed was moved half way across the room, you can see the headboard it was supposed to be under by looking at the chest of drawers, it is behind it. The other bed looking at the photos was moved a tiny bit towards the wall to make space.
The chest of draws was originally against the left hand wall under the mirror. JMO

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Re: A question

Post by russiandoll on 06.02.13 20:51

be aware also that Kate McCann said in her book THAT SHE WANTED IT ON THE RECORD that she slept in the children's room one night, iirc Wednesday. please correct me if I have the date wrong.

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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 20:51

@Hobs wrote:Given the age of the children one would expect to see plenty of DNA from them plus hand, finger and footprints.
Exactly!!!
Children are messy, sticky, body fluid exuding creatures.

There should be saliva and sweat on the sheets and pillows, hairs on the pillows and in the bathroom and in hair brushes, DNA on toothbrushes, I would also expect to see traces of urine and faeces from dirty diapers, i would also expect to see boogers since children are always rootling in their nostrils.

I would expect to see finger and handprints on surfaces such as the table, the toilet, windows, anything shiny, the bath, tiles, sink and taps. Footprints to be on the tiles and possibly on the surfaces of the cots.

I would also expect to see finger marks on the walls as well as traces of DNA from sundry body fluids

The apartment should be reeking with their DNA.

As well as looking for what shouldn't be there that is, they should also be looking for what should be there and isn't, indicating a forensic cleanup.
Thank You! Why weren't GM and KM confronted about the "cleanliness" of the apartment?
As a matter of interest, Do we know if the PJ used luminol or similar blood revealing fluids in the house and hire car?

Even if attempts had been made to clean the blood away, Luminol will reveal it clearly, even on clothing, bedding, curtains and furniture.

Even after all this time it would still show it up.

If they haven't then i strongly advise the do so in all rooms of 5a and in the rooms of the apartments used by the tapas 7.

Also in the hire car and any clothes the PJ may have in evidence, I would also have them check cuddlecat as well in case of transference especially since it reeked of cadaverine.

Any blood found would require an explanation.

The position of the blood ie low or high, direction of blood (check the ceiling as well and light fixtures since blood spray can get everywhere) type of blood spray can indicate low or high velocity spray such as droplets, streaks etc.

I haven't come across any report about the blood and I can't make anything out from the photo's where blood was tagged with yellow markers.

A shaving cutor nose bleed is likely to result in droplets on the floor caused by gravity whereas a line of blood across the wall can indicate movement aand possibly indicative of violence.


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Re: A question

Post by Mrs Beeton on 06.02.13 20:58

Is there proof that the arrival video, filmed by DP, was taken on the Saturday in May they arrived in P de Luz, rather than say, on a hypothetical previous trip at Easter? I was just wondering, given the above comments whether she might have disappeared much, much earlier. Or is that a daft suggestion?

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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 21:06

@Inspectorfrost wrote:Blood spatter? I have seen the picture with numerals on the wall in the living room but is there anything in the files to say these spots were blood? How does blood scatter itself in such a pattern? IE dots here and there?

@Nina, I forgot what the point was about where the beds were
big grin
The left hand bed was moved half way across the room, you can see the headboard it was supposed to be under by looking at the chest of drawers, it is behind it. The other bed looking at the photos was moved a tiny bit towards the wall to make space.
The chest of draws was originally against the left hand wall under the mirror. JMO

Blood splatters can provide clues in how the person died. Was the victim standing, running, laying when he/she was harmed? Was the victim moved from say point A to point B? The splatter pattern can also show what instrument was used in causing the splatter such as an axe, a gun, a knife or another object.

I asked about the beds bc the only bed that looked like anyone had slept in was the one under the window. The bed Maddie was suppose to have slept in looks like the bed in the adults room. Both appear to have been "staged" If the beds had been made that morning why did the bed in the adults room appear to have been turned down?

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Re: A question

Post by Guest on 06.02.13 21:16

The beds were made on the Wednesday. She's reported to go missing on the Thursday.

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Re: A question

Post by Nina on 06.02.13 21:21

Châtelaine wrote:The beds were made on the Wednesday. She's reported to go missing on the Thursday.

So they were slept in on the wednesday night, no maid service on the thursday so not made yet Madeleines bed on the photograph looks so tidy to have been slept in on the wednesday night and from 7.30 on the thursday night don't you think?

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Re: A question

Post by Guest on 06.02.13 21:30

@Nina wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:The beds were made on the Wednesday. She's reported to go missing on the Thursday.

So they were slept in on the wednesday night, no maid service on the thursday so not made yet Madeleines bed on the photograph looks so tidy to have been slept in on the wednesday night and from 7.30 on the thursday night don't you think?
***
There is a [remote] possibility that they made the beds themselves on Thursday morning.
In general, something doesn't seem right, when looking at the PJ photos.

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Re: A question

Post by Inspectorfrost on 06.02.13 21:44

@southern_gal wrote:
@Inspectorfrost wrote:Blood spatter? I have seen the picture with numerals on the wall in the living room but is there anything in the files to say these spots were blood? How does blood scatter itself in such a pattern? IE dots here and there?

@Nina, I forgot what the point was about where the beds were
big grin
The left hand bed was moved half way across the room, you can see the headboard it was supposed to be under by looking at the chest of drawers, it is behind it. The other bed looking at the photos was moved a tiny bit towards the wall to make space.
The chest of draws was originally against the left hand wall under the mirror. JMO

Blood splatters can provide clues in how the person died. Was the victim standing, running, laying when he/she was harmed? Was the victim moved from say point A to point B? The splatter pattern can also show what instrument was used in causing the splatter such as an axe, a gun, a knife or another object.

I asked about the beds bc the only bed that looked like anyone had slept in was the one under the window. The bed Maddie was suppose to have slept in looks like the bed in the adults room. Both appear to have been "staged" If the beds had been made that morning why did the bed in the adults room appear to have been turned down?

Did the PJ ever mention blood spatters was my question, if they didnt, then, well, there werent any

I still want to know why you think there were blood spatters

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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 22:03

@Inspectorfrost wrote:
@southern_gal wrote:
@Inspectorfrost wrote:Blood spatter? I have seen the picture with numerals on the wall in the living room but is there anything in the files to say these spots were blood? How does blood scatter itself in such a pattern? IE dots here and there?

@Nina, I forgot what the point was about where the beds were
big grin
The left hand bed was moved half way across the room, you can see the headboard it was supposed to be under by looking at the chest of drawers, it is behind it. The other bed looking at the photos was moved a tiny bit towards the wall to make space.
The chest of draws was originally against the left hand wall under the mirror. JMO

Blood splatters can provide clues in how the person died. Was the victim standing, running, laying when he/she was harmed? Was the victim moved from say point A to point B? The splatter pattern can also show what instrument was used in causing the splatter such as an axe, a gun, a knife or another object.

I asked about the beds bc the only bed that looked like anyone had slept in was the one under the window. The bed Maddie was suppose to have slept in looks like the bed in the adults room. Both appear to have been "staged" If the beds had been made that morning why did the bed in the adults room appear to have been turned down?

Did the PJ ever mention blood spatters was my question, if they didnt, then, well, there werent any

I still want to know why you think there were blood spatters

In the photos taken of the apartment by the PJ there are several photos of the wall behind the couch, the curtain behind the couch, the floor and the couch. In these photos there are numerous yellow tags to indicate where blood splatter was found on each of these areas. I haven't come across any sort of report about the pattern or if Luminol(sic) was used which would have locate any areas where someone may have attempted to "wipe up".

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Re: A question

Post by Inspectorfrost on 06.02.13 22:10

Southern gal

i know about the numbered areas, Im just asking why you think they are blood spatters, if they were the official police files would have that info in them and they dont unless I missed something

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Re: A question

Post by monkey mind on 06.02.13 22:14

@southern_gal wrote:
@Inspectorfrost wrote:[
I still want to know why you think there were blood spatters

In the photos taken of the apartment by the PJ there are several photos of the wall behind the couch, the curtain behind the couch, the floor and the couch. In these photos there are numerous yellow tags to indicate where blood splatter was found on each of these areas. I haven't come across any sort of report about the pattern or if Luminol(sic) was used which would have locate any areas where someone may have attempted to "wipe up".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm

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Re: A question

Post by Inspectorfrost on 06.02.13 22:19

@monkey mind wrote:
@southern_gal wrote:
@Inspectorfrost wrote:[
I still want to know why you think there were blood spatters

In the photos taken of the apartment by the PJ there are several photos of the wall behind the couch, the curtain behind the couch, the floor and the couch. In these photos there are numerous yellow tags to indicate where blood splatter was found on each of these areas. I haven't come across any sort of report about the pattern or if Luminol(sic) was used which would have locate any areas where someone may have attempted to "wipe up".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm

That is to do with the floor and skirting boards not anything up the wall


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Re: A question

Post by Nina on 06.02.13 22:30

@Inspectorfrost wrote:
@monkey mind wrote:
@southern_gal wrote:
@Inspectorfrost wrote:[
I still want to know why you think there were blood spatters

In the photos taken of the apartment by the PJ there are several photos of the wall behind the couch, the curtain behind the couch, the floor and the couch. In these photos there are numerous yellow tags to indicate where blood splatter was found on each of these areas. I haven't come across any sort of report about the pattern or if Luminol(sic) was used which would have locate any areas where someone may have attempted to "wipe up".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm

That is to do with the floor and skirting boards not anything up the wall


If you scroll down Inspectorfrost it mentions swabs taken from the walls and curtains.

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Re: A question

Post by monkey mind on 06.02.13 22:36

@Inspectorfrost wrote:
@monkey mind wrote:
@southern_gal wrote:
@Inspectorfrost wrote:[
I still want to know why you think there were blood spatters

In the photos taken of the apartment by the PJ there are several photos of the wall behind the couch, the curtain behind the couch, the floor and the couch. In these photos there are numerous yellow tags to indicate where blood splatter was found on each of these areas. I haven't come across any sort of report about the pattern or if Luminol(sic) was used which would have locate any areas where someone may have attempted to "wipe up".
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm

That is to do with the floor and skirting boards not anything up the wall

From the report on that link - "....and on the wall of the living room next to the place from where there were previously lifted and collected four floor tiles, and on the back of the blue, cloth-upholstered sofas that were next to that wall..."

And at the end of the page it covers the curtains which also contained spots but not at the hem, rather in the body. They had run out of swabs by this stage so just bagged the curtains as a whole to lift trace evidence at the lab as opposed to in situ.

Granted it doesn't tell yo what these spots were on that link but it does indicate trace evidence lifted from spots on the wall, sofa, curtains and beneath the floor tiles and the cement between tiles.


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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 22:40

@Inspectorfrost wrote:Southern gal

i know about the numbered areas, Im just asking why you think they are blood spatters, if they were the official police files would have that info in them and they dont unless I missed something

I think we're talking about the same thing. When I say blood splatter I'm referring to the blood found in these locations that were marked. Normally, at least over here, there is a report about the blood splatter bc as I said previously it provides valuable information about how the crime occurred.

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