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A question

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A question

Post by Guest on 03.02.13 13:17

Does anyone remember

What was the date appartment 5 A was search by Eddie and kela?

What date did they move to their Villa who was searched in start of August

How lon did they have the rented car? From 27 May until ?

Hope someone has the answer , I read so much and I dont have the energi to look into the files myself at this moment, so hopefully somone has the information easily availble :)

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Re: A question

Post by Inspectorfrost on 03.02.13 16:21

Moa wrote:Does anyone remember

What was the date appartment 5 A was search by Eddie and kela?

What date did they move to their Villa who was searched in start of August

How lon did they have the rented car? From 27 May until ?

Hope someone has the answer , I read so much and I dont have the energi to look into the files myself at this moment, so hopefully somone has the information easily availble :)

Flat 5a was first inspected on July 31st though there was a second visit few days later

They moved into the villa on 2nd July

The car was rented until around 23rd September, which was then returned by a friend as they had returned to the UK in the first half of September

I made a post with all the links from the files but I lost it. if you need them, just shout

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Re: A question

Post by Guest on 03.02.13 16:32

@Inspectorfrost wrote:
Moa wrote:Does anyone remember

What was the date appartment 5 A was search by Eddie and kela?

What date did they move to their Villa who was searched in start of August

How lon did they have the rented car? From 27 May until ?

Hope someone has the answer , I read so much and I dont have the energi to look into the files myself at this moment, so hopefully somone has the information easily availble :)

Flat 5a was first inspected on July 31st though there was a second visit few days later

They moved into the villa on 2nd July

The car was rented until around 23rd September, which was then returned by a friend as they had returned to the UK in the first half of September

I made a post with all the links from the files but I lost it. if you need them, just shout

Ty for this :) I'll let u know if I need the link roses

You dont by any chance remember in what periode the car was noticed with the doors open ll day/nigh for airing?

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Re: A question

Post by Inspectorfrost on 03.02.13 17:00

IIRC Mr Amaral mentioned in his documentary that a neighbour had said that ever since the Mccanns arrived at the villa she would see the car boot open, whenever she drove home at night, and that said witness had reported this but was never interviewed by the PJ. I would have to watch it again and see exactly what was said and when she came forward and to who.

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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 14:45

Another Question or Two....

GA has stated that he believes Maddie's death was an accident. Does that mean the crime was not premeditated? The reason I ask this is because of the forensic evidence of blood at the scene. There were traces of blood spray on the wall, curtains, back of the couch and floor in the living room that suggest a violent death that didn't result from something like a hard slap that would have caused a brain injury or suffocation or even a fall from the back of the couch.

Another question if I may. If Maddie's death had been an accident wouldn't the crime scene, the apartment, have "looked" different? Different in the sense of chaos. Instead, the apartment appeared meticulous as in a great deal of thought went into "staging".

Why did the only bed that looked like someone had slept in was the bed under the window in Maddie's room? Even the bedroom where G&K slept, only one side of the bed appears touched similar to the way the bed Maddie was suppose to have slept in appeared.

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Re: A question

Post by Guest on 06.02.13 14:49

@Inspectorfrost wrote:IIRC Mr Amaral mentioned in his documentary that a neighbour had said that ever since the Mccanns arrived at the villa she would see the car boot open, whenever she drove home at night, and that said witness had reported this but was never interviewed by the PJ. I would have to watch it again and see exactly what was said and when she came forward and to who.

IIRC this witness was a highly trained lawyer, a judge even. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: A question

Post by Guest on 06.02.13 15:04

@southern_gal wrote:Another Question or Two....

GA has stated that he believes Maddie's death was an accident. Does that mean the crime was not premeditated? The reason I ask this is because of the forensic evidence of blood at the scene. There were traces of blood spray on the wall, curtains, back of the couch and floor in the living room that suggest a violent death that didn't result from something like a hard slap that would have caused a brain injury or suffocation or even a fall from the back of the couch.

Another question if I may. If Maddie's death had been an accident wouldn't the crime scene, the apartment, have "looked" different? Different in the sense of chaos. Instead, the apartment appeared meticulous as in a great deal of thought went into "staging".

Why did the only bed that looked like someone had slept in was the bed under the window in Maddie's room? Even the bedroom where G&K slept, only one side of the bed appears touched similar to the way the bed Maddie was suppose to have slept in appeared.

Looking at the 4-passport-picture myself yesterday, I too saw (again) the picture of the parents bedroom on top of it (PJ files pictures; nr 17 to nr 18)

Supposedly a maid from the MW organisation had come in that morning and made up the rooms. There is a statement from one of them describing seeing Maddie that morning with trainers with little lights on them (never before or after mentioned again, nor found).

If the rooms were made up, and everybody left the appartment for a full days exercise, as they are said to have done, then some questions remain:

1. Who messed up the bedding on the parent's bed next to the wall?

2. Idem re the mattress in the childrens room, on the floor next to the window? Nowhere is mentioned that anyone used it during the day.

3. Where is the bed belonging to that same mattress, seeing that there is a headboard over the mattress, as there is over the three other beds? Headboard -> bed -> missing bed?

4. KM stated having looked under the beds. Why then are they fotographed pushed together in the parent's bedroom?
5. Notice the bedding on the bed closest to the viewer in the parents room: hanging loose sheet with cover on top. No way the maid would have made it up like that. So: why did the person pulling loose the sheet on the left hand bed, think it necessary to straighten it up and cover the sheet with the cover in such a neat way?

6. On which bed did David Payne see the Three Angels, putting his head around the patio door? Neither room is visible from the door, or, in any case , neither of the three beds is visible from the patio door.

Someone should turn the available information into a computer mystery game and apply for copyrights!

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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 15:17

I will try to figure out how to download an avatar today....

Didn't the maid state that on the 3rd she only had time to take the trash out? If the maid did make the beds then why would the bed under the window have been messed up? I know that the PJ didn't find any forensic evidence that Maddie had slept in the bed with cuddle cat but did anyone check the bed in the parents room for any traces of Maddie? I wonder when the bed linens had been washed. The entire apartment appeared too tidy for a family of five and for a scene of a missing toddler except for that one bed. The apartment looked like it had been well thought out which doesn't register as accidental in my mind. What am I missing?

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Re: A question

Post by Guest on 06.02.13 15:33

@southern_gal wrote:I will try to figure out how to download an avatar today....

Didn't the maid state that on the 3rd she only had time to take the trash out? If the maid did make the beds then why would the bed under the window have been messed up? I know that the PJ didn't find any forensic evidence that Maddie had slept in the bed with cuddle cat but did anyone check the bed in the parents room for any traces of Maddie? I wonder when the bed linens had been washed. The entire apartment appeared too tidy for a family of five and for a scene of a missing toddler except for that one bed. The apartment looked like it had been well thought out which doesn't register as accidental in my mind. What am I missing?

Your yesterdays' avatar was very funny & cheerful!

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Re: A question

Post by monkey mind on 06.02.13 16:11

@southern_gal wrote:I I know that the PJ didn't find any forensic evidence that Maddie had slept in the bed with cuddle cat but did anyone check the bed in the parents room for any traces of Maddie?
Southern Gal,
The PJ did a full forensic examination of 5A. They found no evidence to indicate Madeleine McCann had been in that apartment at all. Nothing. Nada. Not even a toothbrush from which DNA could be lifted.

There were I believe 169 hairs lifted from those premises. Not one belonged to Maddie. They did however find hairs belonging to RO, MO and DP, three presumably rather placid adult doctors managed to shed hair in the premises after only the briefest of visits yet a lively almost 4 year old child, rough and tumbling with her siblings, eating and sleeping in that apartment for 6 days and 5 nights shed not a hair, not a single physical forensic indication that she had been there. Not a one. Not even slobber on her pillow, they had to travel a couple of thousand miles back home for that.

They did however find blood behind the sofa and the original FSS report stated all markers matched those of Madeleine. And of course they found indications that a human dead body had spent time behind that sofa, and in or around the cupboard in the parents bedroom and on the veranda outside their bedroom and the garden area below that. But just as they have been unable to find Maddie they have not been able to find or account for a human corpse in 5A, none has ever been reported there that would account for the indications given by Eddie.

Taking these facts from the PJ files into consideration it raises for me at least some serious questions regarding time frames for that week. How can she have left no forensic trace if she were there for so long?

And in view of that lack of trace evidence, if the PJ were correct in their conclusions that Maddie died in the apartment and the cadaver dogs indications relate to her, was that cadaverine residue left at the end of the week on the Thursday, or was it more likely to have been much earlier? All reasonable questions raised by facts from the files. No accusations, no opinions just facts contained in the official police files and the obvious questions they raise.

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Re: A question

Post by jd on 06.02.13 16:27

@monkey mind wrote:
@southern_gal wrote:I I know that the PJ didn't find any forensic evidence that Maddie had slept in the bed with cuddle cat but did anyone check the bed in the parents room for any traces of Maddie?
Southern Gal,
The PJ did a full forensic examination of 5A. They found no evidence to indicate Madeleine McCann had been in that apartment at all. Nothing. Nada. Not even a toothbrush from which DNA could be lifted.

No evidence to indicate Madeleine McCann had been in that apartment...No evidence of an abduction after 6 years.....Just evidence of blood and cadaver in 11 different places all associated to the mccanns from clothes to their apartment to their car

And they dare to try and prison a man within his rights of freedom of speech on his questioning of this!!!!!

Just what is the UK government so afraid of.......... winkwink

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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 16:47

We know that Maddie spent time in the apartment prior to her death yet no traces of hair or fiber of hers were found. What happened to the clothing she wore that day? The dogs detected a cadaver scent on Kate's clothing and on a shirt of Sean's but IIRC there has been no mention of Maddie's clothing. In one of the photographs the twins coats are seen hanging on the back of one of the kitchen chairs but not Maddie's.


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Re: A question

Post by jd on 06.02.13 16:51

@southern_gal wrote:We know that Maddie spent time in the apartment prior to her death yet no traces of hair or fiber of hers were found. What happened to the clothing she wore that day? The dogs detected a cadaver scent on Kate's clothing and on a shirt of Sean's but IIRC there has been no mention of Maddie's clothing. In one of the photographs the twins coats are seen hanging on the back of one of the kitchen chairs but not Maddie's.

There are not any of the clothes from the 'photos of Maddie' allegedly taken in PDL there in the apartment either

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Re: A question

Post by Inspectorfrost on 06.02.13 16:55

@Portia
Yes, the witness was said to be a jurist

Re the cleaner, she last cleaned the apartment on Wednesday morning. (Her rota was Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays).The spare bed was used by KM on the Wednesday night thats why it was like that when the photos were taken.

P.S. It was a different cleaner who saw Madeleine with her flashing light trainers and it was on Sunday lunchtime.

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Re: A question

Post by Nina on 06.02.13 16:57

[quote="jd"]
@southern_gal wrote:We know that Maddie spent time in the apartment prior to her death yet no traces of hair or fiber of hers were found. What happened to the clothing she wore that day? The dogs detected a cadaver scent on Kate's clothing and on a shirt of Sean's but IIRC there has been no mention of Maddie's clothing. In one of the photographs the twins coats are seen hanging on the back of one of the kitchen chairs but not Maddie's.


I even thought that the bundle of clothes in the wardrobe in the parent's room photograph was maybe the dirty washing but cannot see anything that resembles what Amelie or Madeleine wore on that famous last photograph, or even Gerry for that matter.

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Re: A question

Post by monkey mind on 06.02.13 16:57

@southern_gal wrote:We know that Maddie spent time in the apartment prior to her death yet no traces of hair or fiber of hers were found. What happened to the clothing she wore that day? The dogs detected a cadaver scent on Kate's clothing and on a shirt of Sean's but IIRC there has been no mention of Maddie's clothing. In one of the photographs the twins coats are seen hanging on the back of one of the kitchen chairs but not Maddie's.

All good questions. But you say "we know" that she spent time in the apartment before going on to point out the contradictions to this.

So my question to you is, how much time do you 'know' she spent in the apartment and how do you know that beyond assumption? Not being contrary here, genuine questions.


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Re: A question

Post by jd on 06.02.13 16:58

[quote="Nina"]
@jd wrote:
@southern_gal wrote:We know that Maddie spent time in the apartment prior to her death yet no traces of hair or fiber of hers were found. What happened to the clothing she wore that day? The dogs detected a cadaver scent on Kate's clothing and on a shirt of Sean's but IIRC there has been no mention of Maddie's clothing. In one of the photographs the twins coats are seen hanging on the back of one of the kitchen chairs but not Maddie's.


I even thought that the bundle of clothes in the wardrobe in the parent's room photograph was maybe the dirty washing but cannot see anything that resembles what Amelie or Madeleine wore on that famous last photograph, or even Gerry for that matter.

And the mccanns sent them all to be washed by the OC cleaners on May 5th...every last scent of Maddie....Gone! (apart from cadaver on cuddlecat that is)

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Re: A question

Post by Inspectorfrost on 06.02.13 17:33

@MM

You have to factor in that the apartment was cleaned, presumably swept and mopped and bedding changed twice that week, last being on the Wednesday, so wouldn't have had 6 days of debris. Alot of the hairs that were collected were unidentifiable? Even the other children's hair didn't appear on that list with the names.

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Re: A question

Post by Nina on 06.02.13 17:39

@Inspectorfrost wrote:@Portia
Yes, the witness was said to be a jurist

Re the cleaner, she last cleaned the apartment on Wednesday morning. (Her rota was Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays).The spare bed was used by KM on the Wednesday night thats why it was like that when the photos were taken.

P.S. It was a different cleaner who saw Madeleine with her flashing light trainers and it was on Sunday lunchtime.

Didn't the cleaner say that the bed under the window was mussed up on the wednesday when she cleaned?

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Re: A question

Post by Inspectorfrost on 06.02.13 17:49

Nina, she said one bed and the cot were messy, the one near the window was unused. That is how I read it.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm

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Re: A question

Post by Guest on 06.02.13 17:49

As I remember it, she said that one of the twins cots was in the parents room.

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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 17:55

@monkey mind wrote:
@southern_gal wrote:We know that Maddie spent time in the apartment prior to her death yet no traces of hair or fiber of hers were found. What happened to the clothing she wore that day? The dogs detected a cadaver scent on Kate's clothing and on a shirt of Sean's but IIRC there has been no mention of Maddie's clothing. In one of the photographs the twins coats are seen hanging on the back of one of the kitchen chairs but not Maddie's.

All good questions. But you say "we know" that she spent time in the apartment before going on to point out the contradictions to this.

So my question to you is, how much time do you 'know' she spent in the apartment and how do you know that beyond assumption? Not being contrary here, genuine questions.


No offense taken. From the video, IIRC that DP filmed, it shows Maddie traveling to the resort with her family. The photo of GM and the kids on the playground the day of arrival shows all of them in same clothes from the traveling video. And, of course one of the MW staff members recalled seeing all three children walk out of the apartment and proceeded to walk up the stairs. However, the only forensic evidence that Maddie was in that apartment was "cuddle cat". No clothes, no toys other than than the sticker book that was used to formulate a time frame and no hygiene utensils. But, why or how?

For the record, IMO, Maddie died in that apartment. I just can't figure out why there was no trace of Maddie of having spent anytime in that apartment. And, as I commented earlier, GA believes that Maddie died in the apartment and the parents were guilty of removing/hiding her corpse. But, the blood patterns found in the living room and the condition of the apartment makes me think that Maddie died a violent death, not from say one hard slap to the head but a death that lasted for more than a minute. The staging of the apartment required a lot of thought and manipulation.

Help.....

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Re: A question

Post by Nina on 06.02.13 18:07

Châtelaine wrote:As I remember it, she said that one of the twins cots was in the parents room.

Here is a snip from the statement, thank you Inspectorfrost for that.

She remembers that when she entered Apartment A on the Wednesday, the parents were inside. After being duly authorized, she entered and carried out her work, because they were already on their way out. While she was in the apartment, there were no children there, and she supposed that they were in the creche. While performing her work, she remembers having noticed that the couple was sleeping in the room located opposite the entrance, where she confirmed the presence of a child's bed (crib). The room gives onto an outdoor garden by means of a terrace, as it is on the ground floor,. In the room next to the entrance to the apartment there was a bed placed next to the wall (where she supposed the missing child slept), and also the second child's bed (crib). All these beds were untidy at the time, meaning that they had been used. She also declares that in the room next to the entrance was another bed that had not been used.

Yes she says there was a cot in the parents room, now did she leave it there, she doesn't say that she moved it so must assume that she did. In the children's room she said was one crib and two beds, one of which was untidy the other being unused. Now she says the bed by the wall, difficult this one as both beds were by a wall was the untidy one. This was Wednesday morning. Thursday 3rd when the police took the photographs there are two cots/cribs in the children's room and one bed untidy but it is the bed under the window by a wall and the bed that Madeleine is said to have slept in looks smooth and tidy. I am confusing myself here laughat

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Re: A question

Post by Inspectorfrost on 06.02.13 18:25

Nina Madeleine's bed had been moved from the middle (ish) of the room to the left wall. (See pictures of the bedroom where the headboard for that bed is behind the chest of drawers which was also moved from where Madeleine's bed ended up, the wall with the mirror on it.So though the other bed under the window is near the wall,and also pushed towards it slightly to make more room for the cots, I think she meant Madeleine's bed, as it wasn't originally against the wall. JMO.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_PHOTO_REPORT.htm

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Re: A question

Post by southern_gal on 06.02.13 18:29

@Nina wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:As I remember it, she said that one of the twins cots was in the parents room.

Here is a snip from the statement, thank you Inspectorfrost for that.

She remembers that when she entered Apartment A on the Wednesday, the parents were inside. After being duly authorized, she entered and carried out her work, because they were already on their way out. While she was in the apartment, there were no children there, and she supposed that they were in the creche. While performing her work, she remembers having noticed that the couple was sleeping in the room located opposite the entrance, where she confirmed the presence of a child's bed (crib). The room gives onto an outdoor garden by means of a terrace, as it is on the ground floor,. In the room next to the entrance to the apartment there was a bed placed next to the wall (where she supposed the missing child slept), and also the second child's bed (crib). All these beds were untidy at the time, meaning that they had been used. She also declares that in the room next to the entrance was another bed that had not been used.

Yes she says there was a cot in the parents room, now did she leave it there, she doesn't say that she moved it so must assume that she did. In the children's room she said was one crib and two beds, one of which was untidy the other being unused. Now she says the bed by the wall, difficult this one as both beds were by a wall was the untidy one. This was Wednesday morning. Thursday 3rd when the police took the photographs there are two cots/cribs in the children's room and one bed untidy but it is the bed under the window by a wall and the bed that Madeleine is said to have slept in looks smooth and tidy. I am confusing myself here laughat


So, the maid cleans the apartment that day. Both beds in the kids room were untidy bc according to Kate she slept in the other bed the prior night bc she was p*** off at GM.
Odd that she slept in that bed considering the difficulty of getting to it with the two cots in the middle of the room and she could easily have just crawled in the bed with Maddie (which I would have done)

Why was the bed in the parents room folded back in a similar fashion as the one in Maddie's room?

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