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Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by ShuBob on 23.01.13 12:59

Monkey Mind, do you think the likes of Amaral and his colleagues who worked on the case will stay silent if their work is dismissed and the abduction theory pursued exclusively instead? Also, what will be the implication for Martin Grime especially given what Kate wrote about him in her book?

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by Cristobell on 23.01.13 13:13

@ShuBob wrote:Monkey Mind, do you think the likes of Amaral and his colleagues who worked on the case will stay silent if their work is dismissed and the abduction theory pursued exclusively instead? Also, what will be the implication for Martin Grime especially given what Kate wrote about him in her book?


I think the only way in which GA would remain silent, is dependent upon the suspended libel case. If the agreement reached does not include a gagging order, then the mccanns have lost.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by ShuBob on 23.01.13 13:18

Cristobell, what about his colleagues who may have been silent thus far but may feel the need to "clear their names"? Also, the likes of Moita Flores and Paulo Sargento?

It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by PeterMac on 23.01.13 13:25

Good point. The same one to be made when people claim that Grange will be a cover-up. There are too many people involved. And there a lot of cops who are notoriously leaky, especially then they have retired.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by monkey mind on 23.01.13 13:37

Any victory by Amaral or his colleagues for that matter in a libel trial would be based on facts known at the time and their words expressed accordingly and as such need have no bearing on a criminal investigation reopened on the basis of **new evidence**. That would only influence future libels one supposes. In practical terms the direction of any such enquiry will follow precisely that guided by the person in charge regardless of what the subordinates think. I stress, so far the PJ have acted with unquestionable honour in relation to this but for that to change the powers that be need only appoint the right person to head the investigation, everything else will then follow however reluctantly. It all comes down to the integrity of the peson in charge.

As yet there has been no official information to my knowledg but when there is personally I'll be looking for what I outlined earlier.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by monkey mind on 23.01.13 13:51

@PeterMac wrote:Good point. The same one to be made when people claim that Grange will be a cover-up. There are too many people involved. And there a lot of cops who are notoriously leaky, especially then they have retired.
Peter, I’m not saying Grange WILL be a cover up, simply there are some in Portugal that believe that SY are trying to influence them to reopen on the basis that she is still alive and that will preclude them from investigating the McCanns. I’m saying I certainly don’t dismiss that possibility.

Are you saying the SIO is not instrumental in the direction an enquiry will take? Most SiOs are very capable people, will be guided by evidence and opinions of their subordinates and the right outcome is reached, but just as easily a bull headed one can lead you down a blind alley, one void of integrity worse.

There are a lot of bodies working on Grange, but if the original announcement is to be believed they were all due pensions so as not to deplete regular manpower. Nice work if you can get it!

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by Cristobell on 23.01.13 14:03

@ShuBob wrote:Cristobell, what about his colleagues who may have been silent thus far but may feel the need to "clear their names"? Also, the likes of Moita Flores and Paulo Sargento?

It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.


I think that is why the result of this libel trial is so important, it will have a knock on effect on all their present cases and any future ones.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by monkey mind on 23.01.13 15:17

SY officers have been over to Pt on numerous occasions. Whilst officers involved in the Pt end remain tight lipped they will certainly have a feel for the direction in which Grange is heading.

They may not be quite so tight lipped with colleagues. Someone like Carlos Anjos who was president of the National Union of Investigators would, if anyone would, have some sort of inkling if his own PJ officers were uncomfortable with what appeared to be coming from Grange.

Maybe tis just my reading between the lines but this interview only three weeks ago doesn’t fill me with optimism.

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6238-carlos-anjos-talks-about-mccanns-christmas-message?highlight=carlos+anjos

Of course, if the PJ themselves have found some compelling evidence worthy of reopening the case which they present to SY, well then SY would just have to go along with that and the McCann's would have the enquiry officially reopened though perhaps not on the terms they would favour. Just my opinion.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by HiDeHo on 23.01.13 16:49

Thanks for the refernce to that video Monkey Mind

I have been adding the translation to the video and was searching for the transcript last night.

I have most of it completed but Carlos Anjos talks so quickly and there is a portion without 'keywords' to easily match with the transcript to enable me to put the text in the correct place...Quite a challenge!

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by Inspectorfrost on 23.01.13 21:07

@ShuBob wrote:Well, if the case is re-opened to pursue the abduction theory, they'll have to explain why Eddie and/or Keela were wrong in this case but right in every other case including the very recent Prout, Pilley and Lane cases.

And all the ones before! And no doubt after.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by Inspectorfrost on 23.01.13 21:44

@Inspectorfrost wrote:
@ShuBob wrote:Well, if the case is re-opened to pursue the abduction theory, they'll have to explain why Eddie and/or Keela were wrong in this case but right in every other case including the very recent Prout, Pilley and Lane cases.

And all the ones before! And no doubt after.

Damn. I was editing this but by the time I hit send it was too late. gerry Mccannhad prattle on as much as he wants in tv interviews saying these dogs are 75% wrong as he can blatantly lie on national television that it was HIM that asked these dogs to be brought in which is an oxymoron at best, and his wife can do the novel penship libelling policemen and rubbishing dogs, it doesnt change a single thing. This would be great to watch in a court.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by aiyoyo on 24.01.13 1:53

jmo it will never be opened on abduction theory, no matter what!

If they are closing in on the perp and about to net him, all they need is special court order (breaking from protocol) to go for him and then reopening procedure can come later.
It is not feasible and would be absolutely stupid to spend time, money and resources opening a case to go round in circles over a hypothesis without leg to stand on. Leaks investigation had been done and dusted, end of story.
Unless new evidence relating to abduction will conclusively lead to an imminent arrest, there is absolutely no justification for opening on that basis whatsoever. And if there will be an imminent arrest, as said earlier, a special court order would suffice for the purpose and the rest can come later.

No matter SY's objective, prime primacy over the case lies with the Portuguese.
Provided SY's review conclusion is in accord with the PJ's, there will be no subsequent action on it.
OP Grange will just end up a total and sinful waste of time and money.

Jmo again, reopening will have to be about getting the main players involved in reconstruction and the rest, nothing short of this will justifies the reopening.






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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by HiDeHo on 24.01.13 4:56

If I may, I would like to add my thoughts on the review...

Firstly, someone pointed out to me at 4.08 he shakes his head when he say about the possibility that she is alive....

Madeleine: How Metropolitan Police are Involved - DCI Andy Redwood - April 24th 2012



He quotes the TWO areas that they focused on...one that she is alive and one that she is not. That to me, tells me (along with the 'remit' that says as if the abduction was in UK) they look at the possibility of an abduction. Maybe they looked at it with NONE of the witness statements about checking etc...and came to the conclusion there may have been time for the abductor to enter and leave the apartment wth madeleine (etc etc.)

He did NOT mention (as I recall, the possibility that the dogs were correct and she may be dead.

I was watching some of the Leveson Inquiry, and apparently, since the Millie Dowler issue the press have noticed a marked difference in what information they can get from SY...'like pulling teeth' was used to describe how SY keep everything close to their chest.

This helps me understand WHY they were so easy to suggest she MAY be alive. The info is no threat to them to release!

I have personally chatted with three detectives in Operation Grange and I am very confident that they take all information and look at it as we hope. The info is checked out first for credibility and only if it 'passes' is it sent to the 'Intelligence'. He confirmed that the info I passed on was passed on to 'Intelligence'. (It wasn't necessarily in the McCann's favour)

Lets keep in mind this is a 'murder team' and the likelihood of us knowing what they have discovered is virtually zero.

They choose to remain 'under the radar' for a reason.....I would suspect if they were trying to whitewaash they would do a lot more than the one 'obligatory' (for McCann supporters) press conference. They would be updating to lighten the blow...I don't know...but I really do feel its above board and though they dont have the ability to reopen the case they can 'agree' or 'enlighten' Portugal. (even though the PJ dont need it)

I trust Joana...who, by the way, has also made it very clear that it was the McCanns who wanted to settle and this was said by Hernani Carvalho on Julia today (Wednesday) also...but so far we havent seen the video for me to add the translation.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by margaret on 24.01.13 9:47

I am still hopeful, if it was going to be a whitewash it would have been done by now. We know how two Portuguese investigations ended up (Mr.Amarals and Mr.Ribeiros?) and if Portugal wanted a whitewash that would have been done by now too. We know what Portugal wants and if they didn't agree with SY they wouldn't still be meeting.

We've also never found out what hacking went on with them, and l'm sure it did.... the biggest story for some years.... it's simply unthinkable they were left alone. That info is with SY too IMO.

It's possible that SY have also obtained mobile phone transcripts, health records and bank statements of those concerned which the Portuguese were denied.

Then we have the latest developments with Mr.Amarals court case, people are scared and rightly so.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by monkey mind on 24.01.13 12:58

It’s good to be hopeful.

I am hopeful.

That doesn’t mean to say I don’t consider all possibilities.

Portugal don’t want a whitewash.

SY would not want a whitewash.

That does not mean to say there would not be one.

And if there was one it wouldn’t be done in a couple of months.

To be plausible it would necessarily have to be the product of a lengthy ‘investigation’.

Who would deny this case has involved powerful forces reaching to the very top of both governments?

It is those forces that MAY want a cover up or more specifically, those on our side of the channel.

There are clearely things about Grange that don’t sit right with officers or ex officers in Portugal. And at this moment in time don’t sit that well with me.

The enquiry hasn’t been officially reopened. We should get some kind of indication as to why SY were there ie, the nature of the info they brought to the table over the coming days, either officially or by some sort of *slip*.

That will tell us much for I feel sure pressure will be brought for Grange to be wound down soon. They may even, probably do know the time frame already. I’d guess the 2 yr mark, could easily be wrong.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by david_uk on 24.01.13 13:07

@margaret wrote:I am still hopeful, if it was going to be a whitewash it would have been done by now. We know how two Portuguese investigations ended up (Mr.Amarals and Mr.Ribeiros?) and if Portugal wanted a whitewash that would have been done by now too. We know what Portugal wants and if they didn't agree with SY they wouldn't still be meeting.

We've also never found out what hacking went on with them, and l'm sure it did.... the biggest story for some years.... it's simply unthinkable they were left alone. That info is with SY too IMO.

It's possible that SY have also obtained mobile phone transcripts, health records and bank statements of those concerned which the Portuguese were denied.


Then we have the latest developments with Mr.Amarals court case, people are scared and rightly so.

As above, surely this is the only new evidence that would actually help bust this wide open.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by monkey mind on 24.01.13 13:20

@david_uk wrote:
@margaret wrote:I am still hopeful, if it was going to be a whitewash it would have been done by now. We know how two Portuguese investigations ended up (Mr.Amarals and Mr.Ribeiros?) and if Portugal wanted a whitewash that would have been done by now too. We know what Portugal wants and if they didn't agree with SY they wouldn't still be meeting.

We've also never found out what hacking went on with them, and l'm sure it did.... the biggest story for some years.... it's simply unthinkable they were left alone. That info is with SY too IMO.

It's possible that SY have also obtained mobile phone transcripts, health records and bank statements of those concerned which the Portuguese were denied.


Then we have the latest developments with Mr.Amarals court case, people are scared and rightly so.

As above, surely this is the only new evidence that would actually help bust this wide open.
Perhaps not the only evidence. But without question the PJ would want all of those records going back well before Maddie disappeared. If comprehensive they could be invaluable in assisting to prove their innocence for instance. But for some reason they haven’t been forthcoming as yet as far as we’re aware. As such we’d expect three things....
1. SY to have obtained them.
2. To have passed them to the PJ
3. If not positive vibes from the PJ, certainly not less than enthusiastic ones.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by PeterMac on 24.01.13 16:34

david_uk. Love the atavar. It looks like a pair of very sharp giant pincers ready to be applied to sensitive parts of someone's anatomy ?

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by ShuBob on 24.01.13 16:47

IIRC, it was ruled that the McCanns' text messages had been obtained by the PJ without getting the right authorization and therefore, the evidence was inadmissible. Does anyone know if, say, SY can get their hands on the same evidence perhaps from the phone company? I think it'll be a travesty if the phone records of all the tapas group don't form part of the evidence.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by monkey mind on 24.01.13 17:23

@ShuBob wrote:IIRC, it was ruled that the McCanns' text messages had been obtained by the PJ without getting the right authorization and therefore, the evidence was inadmissible. Does anyone know if, say, SY can get their hands on the same evidence perhaps from the phone company? I think it'll be a travesty if the phone records of all the tapas group don't form part of the evidence.
No reason why they shouldn't be able to that I can see. Mind you ,with all the assistance the yard are giving them in trying to find their missing child you'd think they would be quite happy to save them the bother of authorisations and warrants etc and happily give them written authorisation.

Wouldn't you?

Eh?

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by david_uk on 24.01.13 17:29

@PeterMac wrote:david_uk. Love the atavar. It looks like a pair of very sharp giant pincers ready to be applied to sensitive parts of someone's anatomy ?

'Nothing is True, Everything is permitted'

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by david_uk on 24.01.13 17:30

@ShuBob wrote:IIRC, it was ruled that the McCanns' text messages had been obtained by the PJ without getting the right authorization and therefore, the evidence was inadmissible. Does anyone know if, say, SY can get their hands on the same evidence perhaps from the phone company? I think it'll be a travesty if the phone records of all the tapas group don't form part of the evidence.

So the transcripts of the text messages exist and the PJ have them, but have not released them because they where not permitted. yes?. ooh I would love to read them, wouldn't you

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by ShuBob on 24.01.13 17:39

@david_uk wrote:
@ShuBob wrote:IIRC, it was ruled that the McCanns' text messages had been obtained by the PJ without getting the right authorization and therefore, the evidence was inadmissible. Does anyone know if, say, SY can get their hands on the same evidence perhaps from the phone company? I think it'll be a travesty if the phone records of all the tapas group don't form part of the evidence.

So the transcripts of the text messages exist and the PJ have them, but have not released them because they where not permitted. yes?. ooh I would love to read them, wouldn't you

It would appear the PJ did not get the correct authorization to access the messages from the Portuguese authorities so were ordered to destroy them

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by david_uk on 24.01.13 17:54

@ShuBob wrote:
@david_uk wrote:
@ShuBob wrote:IIRC, it was ruled that the McCanns' text messages had been obtained by the PJ without getting the right authorization and therefore, the evidence was inadmissible. Does anyone know if, say, SY can get their hands on the same evidence perhaps from the phone company? I think it'll be a travesty if the phone records of all the tapas group don't form part of the evidence.

So the transcripts of the text messages exist and the PJ have them, but have not released them because they where not permitted. yes?. ooh I would love to read them, wouldn't you

It would appear the PJ did not get the correct authorization to access the messages from the Portuguese authorities so were ordered to destroy them

But did they?.

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Re: Scotland Yard in Porto because of Maddie

Post by ShuBob on 24.01.13 18:00

I don't know. If they didn't, that may cause some problems as it'll be they are in breach of a court order.....unless they were able to convince the court otherwise by giving a counter-argument and this wasn't reported

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