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The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Ayniia on 09.10.13 19:04

I said this before and I'll say it again: the only point where I disagree with Mr Amaral is when he says: " - Madeleine McCanns died in aprtment 5A on May the 3rd 2007."
I know because GA said this publicly many times that the book "truth of the lie " is based on the PJ files, so he couldn't say anything different even if he believed it.
Anyway, IMO the 1st with the arrival of RMurat is already suspicious as well as the almost total lack of info on the 1st/2nd May in Kate "madeleine " .Just the same routine...
I also don't believe the nanny as being an independent witness, she was in the Rothley meeting so she was both important and suspicious at the same time... I know there's some theory about an accident happening to Madeleine in the creche, but IMO I don't believe the MCCanns would cover anyone but themselves and surely if the case was of "MW entity" being involved ( sorry being so blunt here ) someone else could've transported whatever it was that left the corpse smell on the Scenic... all IMO.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by sallypelt on 11.10.13 11:05

@HiDeHo wrote:The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of Madeleine (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!



http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic30.html




Mark Harrison MBE
National Search Adviser
Homicide, Missing Persons, Mass Fatality Disasters



Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

Although this needs a bit of patience to 'grasp' (for me anyway...lol) I think this could be one of the most IMPORTANT 'clues'....that the police files haven't told us directly.

Something I came across a week or so ago.

Mark Harrison, in his report from July 23rd 2007 where he was planning the locations for the cadaver and blood dogs to search said something VERY TELLING imo.

The files continuously tell us that Madeleine was at high tea in the tapas (according to witness statements which would need to be included as 'evidence' until proven otherwise) at about 5.30pm Thursday...Kate, Catriona, Gerry etc.

HOWEVER....Mark Harrison claims that he sent the dogs to search in the LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION which was NOT the tapas bar...but the CRECHE!

A search was scheduled for the CRECHE....that tells me there is NO confirmed sighting/knowledge of Madeleine at High Tea!!!! (correct me if my logic is incorrect)

THEREFORE...the last confirmed sighting was at the creche but...WHICH DAY?

My logic tells me that if Madeleine stayed to the end of the day, the nanny would walk her and the other children over to High tea meaning the TAPAS was the last confirmed location....

More logic..tells me that it must have been a day when the PARENTS picked her up early (before high tea)...and...the only day they picked her up early was MONDAY! The day that EVERYONE avoids and does not talk about...The day before the discrepancies started to happen (on Tuesday).....

It could (indirectly as the police have not included in the files but Mark Harrison would not be organising a search as the last confirmed location in the creche...if she was seen AFTER in the tapas at High Tea.) be a real indication that something happened to Madeleine on MONDAY...

I have not arrived at this possibility to prove my thoughts about Monday (because the discrepancies started Tuesday) but as it can be seen clearly...the last place that Madeleine was confirmed to be by someone other than T9 was at the creche!!

Does anyone else find this amazing?
I agree with what is being said here. It fits in with what I believe MAY have happened. The  PJ files are rather sparse for the Monday. I don't believe that Madeleine died much earlier than the 3rd May, BUT I believed that something happened to her before that date. I am of the opinion that Madeleine was taken somewhere, where someone could nurse her back to health after meeting with an accident, but somewhere along the way, Maddie didn't make it. This could account for Murat arriving in Portugal on the Monday night. I have said in the past, that I believe that Madeleine was PUT BACK in the apartment, AFTER she had died, and not taken when she was alive. This scenario would account for why the rest of the group went along with what happened.  All speculation on my part, of course!

Good Morning to all members. I have to drag myself away from the pc, today, to go out into the big, wide world, so I will be having a McCann-free few hours.dance 

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by galena on 11.10.13 11:24

Well I was kindly directed to this thread by another member because I said I was interested in Madeleine's last day before she vanished but I find I'm still confused. There's no clear reference as to what day it refers to.  If Madeleine was not seen by an impartial witness on the last day I would be 99.9% certain that she was either very ill or already dead. Yet even if she was enrolled in the creche - one small blonde girl is much the same as another - I imagine it would be relatively easy to substitute another child without the creche staff noticing.

There seems to be a veil of mystery over Madeleine's last day - very unusual as in missing people cases, generally family and friends remember every minute of the time they spent together and the last time they saw the person, those memories forever preserved by the tragedy that followed.

(Mind you given the little time they spent with the kids I don't suppose there were that memories to hold on to - by their own account - in the creche all day, left alone in the evenings. Some holiday!)

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by bobbin on 11.10.13 11:29

@sallypelt wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of Madeleine (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!



http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic30.html




Mark Harrison MBE
National Search Adviser
Homicide, Missing Persons, Mass Fatality Disasters



Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

Although this needs a bit of patience to 'grasp' (for me anyway...lol) I think this could be one of the most IMPORTANT 'clues'....that the police files haven't told us directly.

Something I came across a week or so ago.

Mark Harrison, in his report from July 23rd 2007 where he was planning the locations for the cadaver and blood dogs to search said something VERY TELLING imo.

The files continuously tell us that Madeleine was at high tea in the tapas (according to witness statements which would need to be included as 'evidence' until proven otherwise) at about 5.30pm Thursday...Kate, Catriona, Gerry etc.

HOWEVER....Mark Harrison claims that he sent the dogs to search in the LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION which was NOT the tapas bar...but the CRECHE!

A search was scheduled for the CRECHE....that tells me there is NO confirmed sighting/knowledge of Madeleine at High Tea!!!! (correct me if my logic is incorrect)

THEREFORE...the last confirmed sighting was at the creche but...WHICH DAY?

My logic tells me that if Madeleine stayed to the end of the day, the nanny would walk her and the other children over to High tea meaning the TAPAS was the last confirmed location....

More logic..tells me that it must have been a day when the PARENTS picked her up early (before high tea)...and...the only day they picked her up early was MONDAY! The day that EVERYONE avoids and does not talk about...The day before the discrepancies started to happen (on Tuesday).....

It could (indirectly as the police have not included in the files but Mark Harrison would not be organising a search as the last confirmed location in the creche...if she was seen AFTER in the tapas at High Tea.) be a real indication that something happened to Madeleine on MONDAY...

I have not arrived at this possibility to prove my thoughts about Monday (because the discrepancies started Tuesday) but as it can be seen clearly...the last place that Madeleine was confirmed to be by someone other than T9 was at the creche!!

Does anyone else find this amazing?
I agree with what is being said here. It fits in with what I believe MAY have happened. The  PJ files are rather sparse for the Monday. I don't believe that Madeleine died much earlier than the 3rd May, BUT I believed that something happened to her before that date. I am of the opinion that Madeleine was taken somewhere, where someone could nurse her back to health after meeting with an accident,  but somewhere along the way, Maddie didn't make it. This could account for Murat arriving in Portugal on the Monday night. I have said in the past, that I believe that Madeleine was PUT BACK in the apartment, AFTER she had died, and not taken when she was alive. This scenario would account for why the rest of the group went along with what happened.  All speculation on my part, of course!

Good Morning to all members. I have to drag myself away from the pc, today, to go out into the big, wide world, so I will be having a McCann-free few hours.dance 
That doesn't account for the first FFS reporting of a fine spray of blood / blood spatters on the walls or the blood which had leaked down into the grouting of the floor tiles in the living room, blood which was found to be Madeleine's.
Nor does it account for the fact that the blood samples had been damaged by cleaning materials and that there was no forensic information found that Madeleine had been present in the apartment, except for the blood, which would indicate a big cleaning job.
Kate does complain that she carried a very tired Madeleine back to 5A. Maddie was signed out early one day having only shortly arrived at the creche.
I agree that the last 'externally' confirmed sighting of Maddie may have been at the creche. Hence a suggestion to make a search there. It does not eliminate the fact that AFTER the last external confirming of Maddie, at the creche, say on the day she came out early, she did not get back to 5A and an accident / assault did not take place then.
This would permit the blood to show its patterns, for the blood to leak into the grouting and time enough to attempt a bleach job or similar, to cover up/destroy the evidence.


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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Searcher on 11.10.13 12:08

I read the transcript of a radio interview, I think with the author of Faked Abduction (apologies no ref.) in the US.  The splattering of blood is mentioned there and it is said to relate to the larynx.  I went just cold on reading that; I hope it is not true for the sake of what it brings to mind.  Would anyone have any further information, or the correct link to this radio interview?

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Ayniia on 11.10.13 12:57

I'm going a little OT here just to explain how something that happened to me some weeks ago just made me believe even more to the theory I already had about what may have happened.
So I'm currently on depression medication that makes me have trouble sleeping so I'm also on sleep medication. This one night I fell from bed very hard on the floor, I looked at the watch, it was 3AM. I climbed back to bed and woke up again at 7AM with such a pain in my right foot I couldn't even walk. I had to get a ride to the hospital and the diagnosis was a broken toe. My point is, I slept straight for 3hours with a broken toe and a considerable amount of pain I didn't felt until the medication wore off.
Back on topic, IMO something happened on the 1st ,a fall or something that was dismissed as not important or a fall that made a child cry and when the parents arrived it was already too late. Common knowledge, if someone bumps their head they should be under surveillance for some time, RE: carrying a very tired Madeleine.
What makes me give such importance to the 1st is Ms Fenn report and Murat sudden return.
What's also telling about the blood found behind the sofa / floor is that the Mccanns didn't said it wasn't blood or it wasn't Madeleine's, but that she may have had a nosebleed...

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Words from an ExPat Algarve resident

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by marconi on 11.10.13 12:59

McCannfiles: video a revelation moment

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by galena on 11.10.13 14:38

@Ayniia wrote:I'm going a little OT here just to explain how something that happened to me some weeks ago just made me believe even more to the theory I already had about what may have happened.
So I'm currently on depression medication that makes me have trouble sleeping so I'm also on sleep medication. This one night I fell from bed very hard on the floor, I looked at the watch, it was 3AM. I climbed back to bed and woke up again at 7AM with such a pain in my right foot I couldn't even walk. I had to get a ride to the hospital and the diagnosis was a broken toe. My point is, I slept straight for 3hours with a broken toe and a considerable amount of pain I didn't felt until the medication wore off.
Back on topic, IMO something happened on the 1st ,a fall or something that was dismissed as not important or a fall that made a child cry and when the parents arrived it was already too late. Common knowledge, if someone bumps their head they should be under surveillance for some time, RE: carrying a very tired Madeleine.
What makes me give such importance to the 1st is Ms Fenn report and Murat sudden return.
What's also telling about the blood found behind the sofa / floor is that the Mccanns didn't said it wasn't blood or it wasn't Madeleine's, but that she may have had a nosebleed...
That sounds very plausible to me.  Which day was it when Madeleine was especially tired?

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Ayniia on 11.10.13 15:04

@galena wrote:That sounds very plausible to me.  Which day was it when Madeleine was especially tired?
@HiDeHo wrote:
More logic..tells me that it must have been a day when the PARENTS picked her up early (before high tea)...and...the only day they picked her up early was MONDAY! The day that EVERYONE avoids and does not talk about...The day before the discrepancies started to happen (on Tuesday).....

It could (indirectly as the police have not included in the files but Mark Harrison would not be organising a search as the last confirmed location in the creche...if she was seen AFTER in the tapas at High Tea.) be a real indication that something happened to Madeleine on MONDAY...

____________________
"My advice to any British tourist ,please come to Portugal,please come to the Algarve but if you're coming as a family holiday treat it as a family holiday and do things together, don't leave the kids"
Words from an ExPat Algarve resident

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by bobbin on 11.10.13 17:12

What has always troubled me is Mrs. Fenn saying that the long, increasing in volume, crying session, calling out 'daddy' ended as the patio doors moved (either they were opening or closing, she did not know which).
So someone either appeared and the crying simultaneously stopped or the crying stopped and someone simultaneously left. Neither scenario is good.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by tiny on 11.10.13 17:58

@bobbin wrote:What has always troubled me is Mrs. Fenn saying that the long, increasing in volume, crying session, calling out 'daddy' ended as the patio doors moved (either they were opening or closing, she did not know which).
So someone either appeared and the crying simultaneously stopped or the crying stopped and someone simultaneously left. Neither scenario is good.
It makes you wonder what little Madeleine suffered at the hands of ........

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Cat Baker - inaccurate Leicester Statement

Post by BigRon on 07.06.14 21:41

Just noticed Catriona Baker says in her statement to Leicestershire Police that they used two signing in/out sheets - one for the morning and one for the evening. In practice the sheets show they drew a squiggly line across the sheet to indicate the break between the two sessions.

What is odd though is Kate signing as Kate Healy (she had not done that before or since on the creche sheets) and the fact that the sheet for 2nd May pm could have been easily manipulated. Let's assume that you need to make a 'false' sheet for 2nd May. You could get parents to sign an 'extra' sheet (it's explained as a record for consent to one of the sailing trips or something).

The sheets for the days up to and including 1st May seem as they should - parents signing children in and out. For the 2nd May Cat seems to do a lot of the signing out - and for the last entry for the afternoon (the one after Madeleine is supposedly signed in) Cat even writes the name of the child and signs him in!?

Is the 2nd May sheet as reliable as Cat's insistence that they maintained a separate morning and afternoon sheet?

Cat is of course wheeled out as 'proof' MBM was still alive on 2nd/3rd May.....

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Roxyroo on 22.04.16 21:11

Just a wee thought regarding the intended search of the creche:- MBM wakes up, finds no parents, goes looking for them, she remembers the route to the creche (as she's been there everyday so far) and makes her way there,  some accident happens, its on MW property explaining the excessive PR etc. All just my own opinion!
I have a just four year old at home who can remember his own way to nursery each day, even remembering to look left and right before crossing the road, without any help from myself. I don't even leave my doors unlocked during the day in case he decides to go on his own.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by April28th on 29.07.16 17:35

Just wanted to bump the OP here as it just caught my attention while searching for something else.

To add my two penneth...searching for 'human remains' does not exclusively mean a cadaver. Possibly there was intel at the time that an ac/incident occurred at the creche, with the details being such that it needed forensic confirmation (for example finding evidence of blood in a mentioned area).

If such an exercise were carried out it's not hard to see why it'd be witheld from the files - whatever confirmation was or wasn't obtained.

It would represent either;

 - Dismissal of the theory, or
 - Vital evidence which only those in the know would be able to detail

As an example, the details of how JonBenet Ramsay died (being alive 45 minutes longer than public knew, then strangled) were witheld for over a decade as it was considered key information that would rule in or out potentially false confessions.

There are other elements in the files which are left technically open ended, such as the Quinta dos Figos blood tests (I use that as an example - I don't believe it to be relevant).

A question I would put forward is which creche this was? We naturally focus on the day creche because of the sheets and testimony, yet this is the same evidence we must question if the OP has it on the nose. Therefore, is it possible Madeleine spent the night of the 28th or 29th (or both) in night creche, and by whatever means (different topic) her demise began there?

I'm focusing on a different area of the case at present so I'm wondering - has anyone ever looked into that possibility? Would it also explain Charlotte 'same flight' Pennington's insistence on having met Madeleine and her decision to place herself in 5A in the media (plausible deniability)?

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Tony Bennett on 29.07.16 19:31

@April28th wrote:A question I would put forward is which creche this was? We naturally focus on the day creche because of the sheets and testimony...is it possible Madeleine spent the night of the 28th or 29th (or both) in night creche, and by whatever means (different topic) her demise began there? Has anyone ever looked into that possibility?
I don't think so - and I hope not. There's not a shred of evidence to support such a theory

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2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by April28th on 29.07.16 19:48

Well, it's certainly fair to say there is no evidence we have access to, and at that point is only speculation. It's not an idea that had crossed my mind until I happened on this thread (as I said I am very much focused elsewhere), when trying to reason out what Mark Harrison said.

Definitely not an idea I would champion, I just wondered if anyone had made efforts to rule it in/out. Even the most mundane of ideas can help shake out facts, in my experience, simply by making us look in directions we normally wouldn't.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by Tony Bennett on 29.07.16 20:04

@April28th wrote:Well, it's certainly fair to say there is no evidence we have access to, and at that point is only speculation. It's not an idea that had crossed my mind until I happened on this thread (as I said I am very much focused elsewhere), when trying to reason out what Mark Harrison said.

Definitely not an idea I would champion, I just wondered if anyone had made efforts to rule it in/out. Even the most mundane of ideas can help shake out facts, in my experience, simply by making us look in directions we normally wouldn't.
It's clear what Mark Harrison means:

QIOTE

Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.


UNQUOTE

Unfortunately he got that one wrong anyway, as we now have enough evidence to suggest that high tea in the crèche was not "the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of the family".

He got it wrong on two counts:

1. If there was a 'sighting' of Madeleine at all around that time (5pm to 6pm on 3rd May) then it wasn't at the crèche, it was at the high tea in the Tapas restaurant, and

2. It's not 'confirmed' because the sheer number of contradictions surrounding this alleged event makes it very doubtful it ever happened.

I'm all in favour of 'looking in directions we normally wouldn't' - but not down an obvious cul-de-sac - sorry.

____________________


2007 (28 June) Dr Gerry McCann: “I have no doubt we will be able to sustain a high profile for Madeleine’s disappearance in the long-term”.

2017 (February) Dr Kate McCannthrust into a global bidding war…news giants battle to sign her up for the 10th anniversary…offered huge bids…bombarded with offers…30 sitting on the table…getting new bids every other day…one told Kate and Gerry: ‘Name your price!’
                        


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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by April28th on 29.07.16 20:13

I'm with you, thanks for clarifying that for me.

It's concerning to think that he was unaware of where the 'high tea' was supposed to have taken place, I can only hope it was Freudian.

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Re: The LAST CONFIRMED LOCATION of the child believed to be Madeleine McCann (apart from T9) was at the CRECHE!

Post by john h on 15.02.17 10:31

@BigRon wrote:Just noticed Catriona Baker says in her statement to Leicestershire Police that they used two signing in/out sheets - one for the morning and one for the evening. In practice the sheets show they drew a squiggly line across the sheet to indicate the break between the two sessions.

What is odd though is Kate signing as Kate Healy (she had not done that before or since on the creche sheets) and the fact that the sheet for 2nd May pm could have been easily manipulated. Let's assume that you need to make a 'false' sheet for 2nd May. You could get parents to sign an 'extra' sheet (it's explained as a record for consent to one of the sailing trips or something).

The sheets for the days up to and including 1st May seem as they should - parents signing children in and out. For the 2nd May Cat seems to do a lot of the signing out - and for the last entry for the afternoon (the one after Madeleine is supposedly signed in) Cat even writes the name of the child and signs him in!?

Is the 2nd May sheet as reliable as Cat's insistence that they maintained a separate morning and afternoon sheet?

Cat is of course wheeled out as 'proof' MBM was still alive on 2nd/3rd May.....
Yes, I saw an interview actually in which Kate McCann said that she 'became' Kate McCann after Madeleine's disappearance, because that was how the media had always referred to her, though up to that point she had always identified determinedly as Kate Healy: so it seems strange that she would use both or the other name.

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