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Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Guest on 06.12.12 21:44

Danny Shaw‏@DannyShawBBC
#MaxClifford released on police bail to a date later this month

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Ribisl on 06.12.12 21:48

Jean wrote:

I certainly agree that the media goes overboard whenever a politician is found to be having an extra-marital affair.

That is nobody else's business but anything to do with unwilling or underage people is something that the media should cover.
I still feel somewhat uneasy about this current sweeping up of so called 'historic sex offenders' and the media hype of everything that is connected to this police investigation. To be clear, I say this not because I feel any sympathy for those arrested or find their action in any way excusable.

As far as sixties celebrities and their hangers-on are concerned we must remember the culture of the time and some of these girls were certainly willing but very naive, perhaps unlike the girls of similar age these days. Most celebrities wouldn't bother unless the girl was half willing and wouldn't bother checking her passport if she was. It's the mixing of those with the likes of Savile who evidently was more of a predatory paedophile who chose his victims with clear intent that I have a slight doubt about.

In recent months, we have also been forced to acknowledge the existence of yet another category of predatory paedophiles who apparently operated in organised groups and preyed on victims with little recourse for outside help, such as children in care homes.

I am not saying one is lesser evil than the other. But what makes me uncomfortable is the fact that police, possibly in their eagerness to produce results, appear to be feeding the media in an unprecedented manner every time another well known personality is questioned while the Newsnight fiasco and McAlpine's libel threats seem to have put a lid on that particular line of investigation. I hope I am wrong on this and hope a covert SY investigation is underway into some of the extremely serious allegations made by Messham and others.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by RS5 on 06.12.12 22:58

The 'law' - probably worldwide - in the 1960s was not nearly protective enough of women, or young girls. Just look at the case of Raymond Alcala, possibly America's most prolific (and forgotten) serial killer. He was released on parole after serving just 34 months!! for the rape and severe beating of an 8 year old girl - his first recorded crime. Some say he may have killed over a hundred girls and women thereafter.

I'm not suggesting this gentleman is guilty of anything, and would definitely not presume to know what evidence the police may or may not have against him. The Freddie Starr connection is interesting.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by roy rovers on 07.12.12 0:34

It seems odd that the Police are prepared to pull in Max Clifford, DLT and the rest on what will be, by its nature, disputed evidence yet not pull in the McCanns despite overwhelming evidence. Perhaps Max is not a Mason.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by aiyoyo on 07.12.12 2:13

His arrest comes as a total surprise, to me anyway.

It would mean the police must have fairly substantiable evidence suffice to justify the arrest and named him, yet very little or no detail is revealed. As in, who were his victims and when were the reports made?

If this came about as a consequence of Police exhuming historic records, then it could only mean he was reported decades ago. It then begs the question: was he ever investigated back then? Or is this another case of 'nothing was done' or victims were not taken seriously or not believed because of CM's formidable reputation?





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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Ribisl on 07.12.12 6:55

@aiyoyo
My guess is that these very public arrests are happening because of the victims coming forward now encouraged by the recent publicity and also because of ensuing public expectations for the guilty to be brought to justice as well as their appetite to witness the celebrities brought down from their pedestal.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Tony Bennett on 07.12.12 7:18

Clifford has said that the offence(s) took place in 1977.

35 years ago

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by uppatoffee on 07.12.12 7:21

Also that they relate to two incidents. It has not been clarified whether these are two separate people or two incidents with the same person.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Woofer on 07.12.12 10:16

I`m not convinced that he was pulled in for historic accusations - it could be a distraction and a ruse to offer him protection. More likely he was pulled in for being an accessory or for being involved in a cover-up. He must know one hell of a lot. I`d be surprised if he partook in abuse himself, but who knows.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by aquila on 07.12.12 10:28

The usual Sky News drivel this morning. A reporter outside the house of Max Clifford before 7am (darkness in UK) being asked has there been any news. I had hoped the reporter said 'yes, Max popped out in his dressing gown and pyjamas to have a chat and explain everything'. What we did learn was that a newspaper was delivered (what a scoop!) and Max might not be very happy about its content (Max not being headlined incidently) and being only shown in the newspapers as refuting the allegations. Utterly ridiculous reporting imo.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by HiDeHo on 07.12.12 11:23

Having grown up in North London in the 50's 60's, I have a concern that the 'abuse' attributed to individuals varies in what I would consider abusive and repulsive as opposed to not being out of the ordinary during those decades and everyone being tarred and feathered with the same brush.

'Dirty old men' were the norm back then. We barely batted an eyelid when confronted with 'being chatted up' by old men or experiencing the odd 'flasher' (before I was 11).

Dating older men (in their twenties) was comonplace for 14 year olds. My friend dated a 21 year old, for quite a while, beginning when she was 13. The thought of 'spending time' with celebrities was an accomplishment for most of my friends and never thought of as wrong.

It's very different now, so when I see someone accused of 'historic' abuse, when they were younger and enjoying a totally different mindset, I need to know that, if they are arrested, they were what we consider to be abusive predators and not having the whistle blown for situations that were not given a second thought and 'normal' for that era.

Maybe they do need to be held accountable, but I could not view those situations with the same revulsion as those that preyed on, and used young girls to get their kicks.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Guest on 07.12.12 13:39

I agree with you HiDeHo. My heart sank when I heard that the allegations against Max Clifford relate to incidents so long ago and maybe about behaviour which was considered acceptable then.

The serious Internet allegations about people in high places may well not be true but they should be investigated properly. I can't see that will ever happen.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by sallypelt on 07.12.12 13:58

@HiDeHo wrote:Having grown up in North London in the 50's 60's, I have a concern that the 'abuse' attributed to individuals varies in what I would consider abusive and repulsive as opposed to not being out of the ordinary during those decades and everyone being tarred and feathered with the same brush.

'Dirty old men' were the norm back then. We barely batted an eyelid when confronted with 'being chatted up' by old men or experiencing the odd 'flasher' (before I was 11).

Dating older men (in their twenties) was comonplace for 14 year olds. My friend dated a 21 year old, for quite a while, beginning when she was 13. The thought of 'spending time' with celebrities was an accomplishment for most of my friends and never thought of as wrong.

It's very different now, so when I see someone accused of 'historic' abuse, when they were younger and enjoying a totally different mindset, I need to know that, if they are arrested, they were what we consider to be abusive predators and not having the whistle blown for situations that were not given a second thought and 'normal' for that era.

Maybe they do need to be held accountable, but I could not view those situations with the same revulsion as those that preyed on, and used young girls to get their kicks.

Sadly, I have to agree with you. It looks to me as if the powers that be are trying to muddy the waters by questioning high profile people about something that was almost the norm back in the 50s and 60s. One cannot condone what happened, when young groupies were fainting in airports and standing outside stage doors to throw themselves at whatever pop star happened to come through them.But they put it on a plate for anyone who was tempted to take up the offer.

Go after the REAL culprits. Those who were involved in paedophile rings etc. They existed and those people in high places are STILL ALIVE.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Ribisl on 07.12.12 13:58

The trouble is police seem to be bent on pulling in those easy targets who misbehaved in their youth while more heinous crimes committed by predatory paedophiles past and present are being swept under the carpet for fear of libel and negative publicity.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by sallypelt on 07.12.12 14:07

[quote="Ribisl"]The trouble is police seem to be bent on pulling in those easy targets who misbehaved in their youth while more heinous crimes committed by predatory paedophiles past and present are being swept under the carpet for fear of libel and negative publicity.
[/quote



I agree, but all this is doing is discrediting the seriousness of the investigation. Why don't they just question these people without splashing it all over the media?

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by HiDeHo on 07.12.12 14:22

There is a fine line when it comes to what was the 'norm' back in the 60's and poss 70's abuse.

The deciding factor, to me, is the impact it had on the 'victim'.

Maybe the 1977 incident is something to do with this?

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Clifford

In the late 1970s and early 1980s, Clifford ran and took part in discreet weekly adult birthday parties for his friends and clients in South London. This brought him into contact with various madams and prostitutes, a connection which still serves him well in his business to satisfy the often bizarre needs of his clients, as well as an early warning system of interesting behaviour of various persons.[

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Guest on 07.12.12 14:25

That sounds as if only consenting adults were involved. I wonder if Cynthia Payne was the hostess at these parties?!

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by sallypelt on 07.12.12 14:27

Jean wrote:That sounds as if only consenting adults were involved. I wonder if Cynthia Payne was the hostess at these parties?!

Madam Payne has sooooo many stories she could tell. Lawyers, politicians, policemen etc. But as you say, these are consenting adults, and what consenting adults do, is their business. Children are a different matter

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Guest on 07.12.12 15:23

"In the late 1970s and early 1980s, Clifford ran and took part in discreet weekly adult birthday parties for his friends and clients in South London. This brought him into contact with various madams and prostitutes, a connection which still serves him well in his business to satisfy the often bizarre needs of his clients, as well as an early warning system of interesting behaviour of various persons."

The allegations refer to the late 70s and his bio on wiki is rather vague about that period, apart from the above. What struck me, was what I've bolded above ...

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Tony Bennett on 07.12.12 16:26

Met: "You're under arrest".

Clifford: "What for?"

Met: "We have evidence you committed an illegal act in 1977"

Clifford: "How do I get out of this?"

Met: "You have a safe in it with lots of secrets about famous people"

Clifford: "So?"

Met: "Give us the key to that safe, and I think the CPS may consider it's not in the public interest to prosecute you"

Clifford: "It's under the flower-pot at the end of the pergola on my parterre"

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by sallypelt on 07.12.12 16:43

@Tony Bennett wrote:Met: "You're under arrest".

Clifford: "What for?"

Met: "We have evidence you committed an illegal act in 1977"

Clifford: "How do I get out of this?"

Met: "You have a safe in it with lots of secrets about famous people"

Clifford: "So?"

Met: "Give us the key to that safe, and I think the CPS may consider it's not in the public interest to prosecute you"

Clifford: "It's under the flower-pot at the end of the pergola on my parterre"

"Clifford: "It's under the flower-pot at the end of the pergola on my parterre"

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Guest on 07.12.12 16:45

I may be totally mistaken and maybe mentally slightly damaged & or even on the verge of paranoïa by the past 5+ years, but IMO it may indeed be a very good move to get on the back of someone, who [by his own words] holds so much information about so many others.

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by HiDeHo on 07.12.12 18:19

Jean wrote:That sounds as if only consenting adults were involved. I wonder if Cynthia Payne was the hostess at these parties?!

I didn't know who she was so I Googled and got this...Love it!

The Dame Edna Experience, Cynthia Payne, 1987


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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Newintown on 07.12.12 18:44

Dame Edna forgot to ask Cynthia about the Luncheon Vouchers

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Re: Update: Max Clifford convicted and sentenced to 8 years: 2nd May 2014

Post by Guest on 07.12.12 18:48

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_Payne

I'd forgotten about her attempt to become an M P for the Payne and Pleasure Party!

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