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Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Tombraider on 26.12.12 17:19

parapono wrote:@Tombraider
Welcome

IIRC the haplo types of Murat an Jane Tanner were similar.

And what is that all about definite hair samples, of whom? Madeleine?
Madeleine McCann? Lead me the way through the files and show me where you found that, please

Kindest regards

parapono

Hello parapono & Thank you

I will have to check the report to find out if JT & RM are similar haplotypes, I would think they probably are given they are both white European.

No I wasn't specifically referring to any samples of Madeleine's hair, though I now think I may understand why none were identified.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by joyce1938 on 26.12.12 17:50

I think the reason was ,some hairs seemed to be wrong colour and were discarded,so were not used to find out anything ?as far as my memory serves me ,there was talk of thatfor some time ,no one could understand that at all? joyce 1938

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Tombraider on 26.12.12 18:27

@joyce1938 wrote:I think the reason was ,some hairs seemed to be wrong colour and were discarded,so were not used to find out anything ?as far as my memory serves me ,there was talk of thatfor some time ,no one could understand that at all? joyce 1938

Hello joyce 1938, this is correct, samples found on 3 tops supposedly belonging to Madeleine, 11 hairs if I'm not mistaken, were compared to photographs or a photograph of Madeleine and they could not determine whether or not they were in fact samples of her hair.

It should have been a relatively simple test to find a reference sample belonging to Madeleine, after all they were able to identify other individuals hair samples which were found, even 53 that were believed to be from KM or a maternal relative - someone from the same bloodline.

Interesting also and what I think is key to this is that neither of the twins hairs were identified in the report. Now anyone would think that was impossible but no where in the report does it specifically identify any hairs as belonging to them.

So, if they didn't have reference samples of the twins hair how could they possibly compare and identify any hairs found as belonging to Madeleine and this I believe is why the only option they had was to try and find a comparison using photo's.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Guest on 26.12.12 19:13

@Tombraider wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:I think the reason was ,some hairs seemed to be wrong colour and were discarded,so were not used to find out anything ?as far as my memory serves me ,there was talk of thatfor some time ,no one could understand that at all? joyce 1938

Hello joyce 1938, this is correct, samples found on 3 tops supposedly belonging to Madeleine, 11 hairs if I'm not mistaken, were compared to photographs or a photograph of Madeleine and they could not determine whether or not they were in fact samples of her hair.

It should have been a relatively simple test to find a reference sample belonging to Madeleine, after all they were able to identify other individuals hair samples which were found, even 53 that were believed to be from KM or a maternal relative - someone from the same bloodline.

Interesting also and what I think is key to this is that neither of the twins hairs were identified in the report. Now anyone would think that was impossible but no where in the report does it specifically identify any hairs as belonging to them.

So, if they didn't have reference samples of the twins hair how could they possibly compare and identify any hairs found as belonging to Madeleine and this I believe is why the only option they had was to try and find a comparison using photo's.


Yeah but yeah but no...
Comparison using which photos exactly, we have a full range of 'purportedly' Madeleine photos,
from the initial far too young poster photo, compared with for instance the Donegal pic, where the girl looks far older.
The hair colours in all these pics also differ enormously.

Which makes 'comparison by using photos' an insult to common sense, let alone to science.

IMO of course

parapono

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Tombraider on 26.12.12 20:45

parapono wrote:
@Tombraider wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:I think the reason was ,some hairs seemed to be wrong colour and were discarded,so were not used to find out anything ?as far as my memory serves me ,there was talk of thatfor some time ,no one could understand that at all? joyce 1938

Hello joyce 1938, this is correct, samples found on 3 tops supposedly belonging to Madeleine, 11 hairs if I'm not mistaken, were compared to photographs or a photograph of Madeleine and they could not determine whether or not they were in fact samples of her hair.

It should have been a relatively simple test to find a reference sample belonging to Madeleine, after all they were able to identify other individuals hair samples which were found, even 53 that were believed to be from KM or a maternal relative - someone from the same bloodline.

Interesting also and what I think is key to this is that neither of the twins hairs were identified in the report. Now anyone would think that was impossible but no where in the report does it specifically identify any hairs as belonging to them.

So, if they didn't have reference samples of the twins hair how could they possibly compare and identify any hairs found as belonging to Madeleine and this I believe is why the only option they had was to try and find a comparison using photo's.


Yeah but yeah but no...
Comparison using which photos exactly, we have a full range of 'purportedly' Madeleine photos,
from the initial far too young poster photo, compared with for instance the Donegal pic, where the girl looks far older.
The hair colours in all these pics also differ enormously.

Which makes 'comparison by using photos' an insult to common sense, let alone to science.

IMO of course

parapono

It seems so, " an insult to common sense, let alone to science " but without reference samples from her siblings to scientifically prove that any hairs found didn't come from them, then what other alternative method did the scientists have besides attempting to match them to photo's. You can't do comparison tests without reference samples, therefore any hairs found which were thought might belong to Madeleine could have belonged to either sibling.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by worriedmum on 26.12.12 21:22

Does that mean that no samples were taken from the twins or parents as 'control' samples? I thought that was normal scientific procedure?

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Tombraider on 26.12.12 21:33

@worriedmum wrote:Does that mean that no samples were taken from the twins or parents as 'control' samples? I thought that was normal scientific procedure?

I believe they had reference samples from the parents. I also believe that parents have to give consent for authorities to take samples from their children, consent I believe was denied.


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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Guest on 26.12.12 22:18

errr no again. We simple do not know, as the files are incomplete. Mouth swabs were taken from the parents, the tapas 7 and many more people, all to be found in the files as they have been made public. The files include their signatures.
Now, although in the official correspondence, the necessity of mouthswabs to be taken from the twins can be found, no correspondence, no permission by their parents, no exhibit numbers nor results, no receipts, there is nothing to be found in that part of the files that is available about mouthswabs taken from either twin.

But, at the FSS the scientist (Leslie Denton? not sure) concluded that the DNA on the pillow case from Rothley was from a female child of
the McCanns,, not being the female twin


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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Tombraider on 27.12.12 0:58

parapono wrote:errr no again. We simple do not know, as the files are incomplete. Mouth swabs were taken from the parents, the tapas 7 and many more people, all to be found in the files as they have been made public. The files include their signatures.
Now, although in the official correspondence, the necessity of mouthswabs to be taken from the twins can be found, no correspondence, no permission by their parents, no exhibit numbers nor results, no receipts, there is nothing to be found in that part of the files that is available about mouthswabs taken from either twin.

But, at the FSS the scientist (Leslie Denton? not sure) concluded that the DNA on the pillow case from Rothley was from a female child of
the McCanns,, not being the female twin


parapono

I was specifically referring to hair samples. There is no reference anywhere in the files stating that hair samples from the twins were obtained and sent to the GBFS for analysis and there is nothing in the report to suggest they obtained hair samples from the twins. Mouthswabs cannot be compared to hair samples, though the nuclear DNA from the swabs should match any reference hair sample with a root which would also contain nuclear DNA.

The point is without reference hair samples from the twins no one could state that any of the hairs found may have belonged to Madeleine, all an mtDNA analysis would prove is that they may have come from a maternal relative of KM. As the report indicates.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Guest on 27.12.12 1:36

Right, hair samples of the twins, nope.
Instead they "managed to 'squeeze in' a hair-cut for the twins" Gerry McCann wrote in his blog.
Snipping off possible evidence of sedation... Who knows..

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Tombraider on 27.12.12 1:40

parapono wrote:Right, hair samples of the twins, nope.
Instead they "managed to 'squeeze in' a hair-cut for the twins, Gerry McCann wrote in his blog.
Snipping off possible evidence of sedation... Who knows..

parapono

And this could be why they didn't get hair samples, I believe KM has made reference to it in her book and stated that she did allow their own forensic team to take hair samples from the twins months later.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by PeterMac on 27.12.12 7:59

p. 274-5 " I asked for samples of my own hair to be taken as well simply because I was fed up with the constant insinuations that I took tranquillisers, sleeping pills or any medication, for that matter. The process seemed to take ages and we all lost loads of hair. I couldn’t believe they had to take so much. The scientist cut chunks of it from Sean and Amelie’s heads while they were sleeping. I cried as I heard the scissors in their baby-blond hair. I felt angry that the children had to go through this further insult. As for me, I looked as if I had alopecia. "

Q: How many hairs are required for laboratory testing?
A: Approximately 40-50 strands cut from the scalp line at the crown (or when bundled, about the diameter of a shoelace tip).

Q: What time period does the HairConfirm™ test cover?
A: HairConfirm™ will detect drugs for a period of 90 days. The test requires a hair sample of 1.5 inches in length. Each 0.5 inch represents 30 days. The hair sample must be cut as close to the scalp as possible and only the most recent 1.5 inches are tested.

Laboratories advertise their ability for analyse for a period of 90 days. The McCanns’ samples were not taken until 24th September, almost six months = 144 days later. Although it is possible at that stage to test for continuous drug use, it is not believed in any event that a single dose of a drug, given in the amount appropriate to a 2 year old would be sufficient for successful identification on analysis.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Guest on 27.12.12 9:55

I can literally hear Kate's whining accent with that quote about hair samples. How dreadful for her to be treated the same as any obvious suspects in a criminal case, instead of with the reverence and awe she expects.



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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Woofer on 27.12.12 10:14

It never ceases to amaze me how this woman really must think everyone in the world is stupid. Its more than arrogance, its some form of mental dysfunction IMO.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by PeterMac on 27.12.12 11:11

Particularly strange when you consider that what she or her ghost writer put in the book must have been pored over by C-R, amongst others.
They left in so much that was capable of independent verification, or in this case 'falsification' (in the Popper sense) that it makes one wonder whether it was not a cry for help, a plea to be found out, a last attempt for someone to release her from her private hell, and to bring the truth into the open.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Guest on 27.12.12 12:36

@PeterMac wrote:Particularly strange when you consider that what she or her ghost writer put in the book must have been pored over by C-R, amongst others.
They left in so much that was capable of independent verification, or in this case 'falsification' (in the Popper sense) that it makes one wonder whether it was not a cry for help, a plea to be found out, a last attempt for someone to release her from her private hell, and to bring the truth into the open.

thanks PeterMac

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Tombraider on 27.12.12 12:48

I think we can safely say then that for whatever reason, the investigation didn't obtain reference hair samples from the twins. Whether this was because the McCann’s wouldn't allow samples to be taken or whether it wasn't seen as necessary by the authorities at the time is something we don’t know. What I think is certain though is that without reference samples from the twins and also possibly the other children who were on the same holiday with them, it wouldn't be possible to identify any hairs found at the crime scenes which were thought to have originated from a child.

It would also prevent any tests discovering chemicals / sedatives.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by joyce1938 on 28.12.12 10:11

i also read somewhere that a lot of samples were destroyed along with others ,if not sure if it had to be macs or solicitor ,but soeone had to ask for them to be kept ,its just a bit of memory i have ,dont take it as gospel,incase i have got it muddled,i bet others will remember joyce1938

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by PeterMac on 28.12.12 10:20

@Tombraider wrote:I think we can safely say then that for whatever reason, the investigation didn't obtain reference hair samples from the twins. Whether this was because the McCann’s wouldn't allow samples to be taken or whether it wasn't seen as necessary by the authorities at the time is something we don’t know. What I think is certain though is that without reference samples from the twins and also possibly the other children who were on the same holiday with them, it wouldn't be possible to identify any hairs found at the crime scenes which were thought to have originated from a child.
It would also prevent any tests discovering chemicals / sedatives.
Gonçalo Amaral in Amsterdam, 05 May 2009 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html

Q: Do you think the children were sedated?
A: There is no doubt. (Here he told an anecdote: that Kate called a colleague of Gonçalo Amaral's in the PJ, in August, to ask them to check the twins for traces of sedation. Apparently Kate was alone when she called, and a bit upset. That same afternoon, Gerry called and cancelled the request.)

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by tigger on 28.12.12 11:58

@joyce1938 wrote:i also read somewhere that a lot of samples were destroyed along with others ,if not sure if it had to be macs or solicitor ,but soeone had to ask for them to be kept ,its just a bit of memory i have ,dont take it as gospel,incase i have got it muddled,i bet others will remember joyce1938

No, you're quite right. All the samples were destroyed by the FSS as 'they were contaminated'. As big a load of rubbish I've ever heard, same idea again, that contaminated DNA cannot be separated into different individuals.
Samples of decades back have brought murderers to justice, such as the killers of Stephen Lawrence.

Samples are kept even if contaminated because future technology and science may be able to analyse them. The FSS destroying the samples is a huge red flag to me.

Imo they weren't contaminated at all, they just provided the wrong result. I believe Gordon Brown visited the FSS personally, soon after the samples were ditched.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Guest on 28.12.12 13:00

On another forum a poster called beachy has repeatedly been outraged that none of the hairs found in the rented car had been checked for corpse banding ...

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Guest on 28.12.12 13:11

Interview with Goncalo Amaral on the hairs found at the bottom of this piece on Joana's site.........

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/03/maddie-case-goncalo-amaral-returns-to.html

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Tombraider on 28.12.12 13:38

@PeterMac wrote:
@Tombraider wrote:I think we can safely say then that for whatever reason, the investigation didn't obtain reference hair samples from the twins. Whether this was because the McCann’s wouldn't allow samples to be taken or whether it wasn't seen as necessary by the authorities at the time is something we don’t know. What I think is certain though is that without reference samples from the twins and also possibly the other children who were on the same holiday with them, it wouldn't be possible to identify any hairs found at the crime scenes which were thought to have originated from a child.
It would also prevent any tests discovering chemicals / sedatives.
Gonçalo Amaral in Amsterdam, 05 May 2009 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html

Q: Do you think the children were sedated?
A: There is no doubt. (Here he told an anecdote: that Kate called a colleague of Gonçalo Amaral's in the PJ, in August, to ask them to check the twins for traces of sedation. Apparently Kate was alone when she called, and a bit upset. That same afternoon, Gerry called and cancelled the request.)

Thanks PeterMac, Confirmation then that the Portuguese Police / forensics couldn't have had reference samples of the twins hair in order to be used for earlier comparison testing (along with the other hair samples taken) against any other hairs found which were thought to have originated from a child.

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Tombraider on 28.12.12 13:42

@tigger wrote:
@joyce1938 wrote:i also read somewhere that a lot of samples were destroyed along with others ,if not sure if it had to be macs or solicitor ,but soeone had to ask for them to be kept ,its just a bit of memory i have ,dont take it as gospel,incase i have got it muddled,i bet others will remember joyce1938

No, you're quite right. All the samples were destroyed by the FSS as 'they were contaminated'. As big a load of rubbish I've ever heard, same idea again, that contaminated DNA cannot be separated into different individuals.
Samples of decades back have brought murderers to justice, such as the killers of Stephen Lawrence.

Samples are kept even if contaminated because future technology and science may be able to analyse them. The FSS destroying the samples is a huge red flag to me.

Imo they weren't contaminated at all, they just provided the wrong result. I believe Gordon Brown visited the FSS personally, soon after the samples were ditched.

I agree - Big Red flag.

Weren't some of the samples sent to labs in Lisbon?

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Re: Jenny Murat on Kate McCanns book

Post by Nina on 28.12.12 15:14

candyfloss wrote:Interview with Goncalo Amaral on the hairs found at the bottom of this piece on Joana's site.........

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/03/maddie-case-goncalo-amaral-returns-to.html

I urge everyone to read this link.

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