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Onlychecked on her *two*....

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Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by monkey mind on 24.11.12 13:11

Not sure if this has been previously discussed but picked up on twitter, from the statement of K. McCann, dated 6th Sept 2007....

“Gerry was the first one to check on the children, this was decided on the spot, close to 9-9:05PM. He got up from the table and entered the apartment through the veranda door. He came back to the table after 10 minutes; he implied that the children were asleep. He'd met a tennis friend by the name of Jez, with whom he had a chat. During this check, she thinks that Gerry did not check on the children of any other couple, because it was usual just to check on their own children. She never checked on any other child, other than her two.”

It would be interesting to have an assessment of the accuracy of that translation from a Portuguese speaker.

Scroll down to the bottom of the statement, 7th paragraph up.....

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by tigger on 24.11.12 13:30

The statements and interviews have the truth leaking through all the time. It's incredibly difficult to maintain a constructed reality, the brain helpfully retrieves what it remembers - which can't be changed. The changes have to be constructed anew and checked against the original lie (another retrieval) every time.

This was a new one on me too. Good find.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by monkey mind on 24.11.12 13:57

It came from “Interrogation of Kate Marie Healy 6th Sept 2007”. Surely as they were now officially arguidos this interrogation would have been tape recorded which would eliminate any question of translation error.

Can anyone confirm if this was the case? It certainly would have been taped over here.

It’s interesting to note that almost immediately afterwards the interview was terminated due to the lateness of the hour, 11pm apparently. After what had just been said I’m not the least surprised. At whose suggestion was the time out called I wonder, her solicitor??

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Nina on 24.11.12 14:04

Yes indeed a good find, are we sure though it isn't a misprint, have we the original to check it was two Kate said and not three?
One other item from that statement baffles me, the following snip......

Before they left she took some precautions: put the medicine inside a bag with a clasp in her room inside the wardrobe or the dresser. These were Calpol (paracetamol) and Nurofen (Ibuprofen), for fevers and pains, both for adults and children (liquid form for children). In this bag there was also a small pair of scissors. In the kitchen were cutting elements used to prepare the meals and which were not put out of sight. During their trips it was normal for them to take these medicines. During these holidays she never gave any medicine to her children, nor did Gerry. She now says that Gerry took medicine for acidity called Losec (omeprozole) which they also possessed.

So she/Kate took some precautions, presumably because she did a risk assessment and these were risky areas. So she put the medicine inside a bag with a clasp, so does this mean that the medicines were out as loose and not in a container. Was someone requiring a dose of one of the medications, or their nails cutting? Why wasn't the clasped bag stored in the wardrobe and just taken out if required. It reads to me as though she was returning medication to a bag and then back to the wardrobe.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Guest on 24.11.12 14:16

From the precautions taken with the medicines, Kate must have thought that there was a chance that any of the children would get up and wander around in her absence.

That doesn't tally with them never being known to wake up once they'd settled down for the night.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Nina on 24.11.12 14:44

Jean wrote:From the precautions taken with the medicines, Kate must have thought that there was a chance that any of the children would get up and wander around in her absence.

That doesn't tally with them never being known to wake up once they'd settled down for the night.

Hi Jean, and was she expecting the twins to clamber out of their cots or just Madeleine to wander from her easy to leave bed and thus having access to unstored medication? I just cannot get to grips with her putting the medicines back into the bag and then being stored in a safe/safer place, it really does read to me as though they were already out of the bag and at hand, so were they being administered?

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by PeterMac on 24.11.12 15:19

duplicated.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by PeterMac on 24.11.12 15:20

Jean wrote:From the precautions taken with the medicines, Kate must have thought that there was a chance that any of the children would get up and wander around in her absence.
That doesn't tally with them never being known to wake up once they'd settled down for the night.
Which in turn does not tally with the story about Madeleine having a star chart to teach her NOT to get up during the night and walk around.
And also does not tally with Madeleine's alleged own story about their crying.

There are so many "versions of the truth". You can perm any combination.
So long as it includes an "Abduction", or course.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Juulcy on 24.11.12 15:47

@Nina wrote:
Jean wrote:From the precautions taken with the medicines, Kate must have thought that there was a chance that any of the children would get up and wander around in her absence.

That doesn't tally with them never being known to wake up once they'd settled down for the night.

Hi Jean, and was she expecting the twins to clamber out of their cots or just Madeleine to wander from her easy to leave bed and thus having access to unstored medication? I just cannot get to grips with her putting the medicines back into the bag and then being stored in a safe/safer place, it really does read to me as though they were already out of the bag and at hand, so were they being administered?

Good observation. If she put the medication away every night, it must have been taken out that evening, in order to have to store it away again.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Nina on 24.11.12 15:50

@Juulcy wrote:
@Nina wrote:
Jean wrote:From the precautions taken with the medicines, Kate must have thought that there was a chance that any of the children would get up and wander around in her absence.

That doesn't tally with them never being known to wake up once they'd settled down for the night.

Hi Jean, and was she expecting the twins to clamber out of their cots or just Madeleine to wander from her easy to leave bed and thus having access to unstored medication? I just cannot get to grips with her putting the medicines back into the bag and then being stored in a safe/safer place, it really does read to me as though they were already out of the bag and at hand, so were they being administered?

Good observation. If she put the medication away every night, it must have been taken out that evening, in order to have to store it away again.

Hi Juulcy, well she certainly returned it to a clasped bag and stored it safely on the night of 3rd May 2007, according to her statement.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by monkey mind on 24.11.12 16:08

@PeterMac wrote:duplicated.
Does that mean the initial subject of this thread is duplicated Peter? If so can you give title of first thread or link please?

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by PeterMac on 24.11.12 16:21

@monkey mind wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:duplicated.
Does that mean the initial subject of this thread is duplicated Peter? If so can you give title of first thread or link please?
Sorry, Monkey Mind. I tried to delete that post as it had gone though twice, but it only let me wipe the words, not the post itself, so I had to fill in a word, and inadvertently chose one which is capable of interpretation.
Perhaps I should have just used an Emoticon.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by tigger on 24.11.12 16:38

@Nina wrote:Yes indeed a good find, are we sure though it isn't a misprint, have we the original to check it was two Kate said and not three?
One other item from that statement baffles me, the following snip......

Before they left she took some precautions: put the medicine inside a bag with a clasp in her room inside the wardrobe or the dresser. These were Calpol (paracetamol) and Nurofen (Ibuprofen), for fevers and pains, both for adults and children (liquid form for children). In this bag there was also a small pair of scissors. In the kitchen were cutting elements used to prepare the meals and which were not put out of sight. During their trips it was normal for them to take these medicines. During these holidays she never gave any medicine to her children, nor did Gerry. She now says that Gerry took medicine for acidity called Losec (omeprozole) which they also possessed.

So she/Kate took some precautions, presumably because she did a risk assessment and these were risky areas. So she put the medicine inside a bag with a clasp, so does this mean that the medicines were out as loose and not in a container. Was someone requiring a dose of one of the medications, or their nails cutting? Why wasn't the clasped bag stored in the wardrobe and just taken out if required. It reads to me as though she was returning medication to a bag and then back to the wardrobe.

'Cutting implements which were not put out of sight.' is the phrase that bothered me when I first read it. Not very safe with a child that can wander at night to have knives/scissors lying on the worktop? It seems to have been specifically mentioned by the PJ rather than KM.



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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Nina on 24.11.12 16:41

@tigger wrote:
@Nina wrote:Yes indeed a good find, are we sure though it isn't a misprint, have we the original to check it was two Kate said and not three?
One other item from that statement baffles me, the following snip......

Before they left she took some precautions: put the medicine inside a bag with a clasp in her room inside the wardrobe or the dresser. These were Calpol (paracetamol) and Nurofen (Ibuprofen), for fevers and pains, both for adults and children (liquid form for children). In this bag there was also a small pair of scissors. In the kitchen were cutting elements used to prepare the meals and which were not put out of sight. During their trips it was normal for them to take these medicines. During these holidays she never gave any medicine to her children, nor did Gerry. She now says that Gerry took medicine for acidity called Losec (omeprozole) which they also possessed.

So she/Kate took some precautions, presumably because she did a risk assessment and these were risky areas. So she put the medicine inside a bag with a clasp, so does this mean that the medicines were out as loose and not in a container. Was someone requiring a dose of one of the medications, or their nails cutting? Why wasn't the clasped bag stored in the wardrobe and just taken out if required. It reads to me as though she was returning medication to a bag and then back to the wardrobe.

'Cutting implements which were not put out of sight.' is the phrase that bothered me when I first read it. Not very safe with a child that can wander at night to have knives/scissors lying on the worktop? It seems to have been specifically mentioned by the PJ rather than KM.



Was the activity book that had the outer cover removed to write the timeline on one of those where you cut out shapes I wonder?

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Guest on 24.11.12 17:45

There is a thread on the medicines and what Mr Amaral wrote in his book, here.........

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2907-medicines?highlight=the+medicines

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Guest on 24.11.12 21:07

Knives not put away safe? I am reminded AGAIN of "Belle Famille" by Dreyfuss, in which Madec [Maddie] falls from a chair, trying to get something from a HIGH SHELF [not a can of beans...] whilst holding a KNIFE. And dies.


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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by aiyoyo on 25.11.12 2:14

@PeterMac wrote:
Jean wrote:From the precautions taken with the medicines, Kate must have thought that there was a chance that any of the children would get up and wander around in her absence.
That doesn't tally with them never being known to wake up once they'd settled down for the night.
Which in turn does not tally with the story about Madeleine having a star chart to teach her NOT to get up during the night and walk around.
And also does not tally with Madeleine's alleged own story about their crying.

There are so many "versions of the truth". You can perm any combination.
So long as it includes an "Abduction", or course.

Her statements are glaringly self-contradicting.
Either Maddie was capable of waking up during sleep, or she wasn't - cant have it two ways.
Mutliple "versions of the truth" is inevitable if "abduction" is to be sold. No fabrications = no abduction.

Then there is the tale about Madeleine's tea-stained pyjamas, which had Kate perplexed.
How does the implication of abductor's dry run co-relate to that I wonder?
Is Kate suggesting "Abductor" had tea in front of Maddie? Had tea with Maddie? Brought his own tea?
Brewed up a cuppa in the Apt (in this case, why didn't she notice anything unusual in the kitchen - disturbed utensils/teabags or unwashed mug for examples)

All very mind boggling what she was trying to imply about the tea-stained pyjamas which she also told us she promptly washed out without thinking; and that it only afterthought that she thinks the abductor has had a dry run.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Jenns on 25.11.12 8:45

In her interview with Leicester police in April 08, part 2 of 3, Fiona Payne reports Kate asking her opinion on leaving the apartment unlocked..........Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find them, or waking and finding them not there and the doors locked. (What a dilemma for them!)

Apparently this conversation took place because Madeleine had previously woken.

Doesn`t this indicate that the prospect of her waking was acknowledged, discussed and actually catered for by leaving the apartment unlocked......that it was thought not unreasonable for a child of this age to leave the apartment at night to look for her parents and maybe even considered preferable to her waking with the doors locked and finding them gone?

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Guest on 25.11.12 10:17

@monkey mind wrote:[...]
She never checked on any other child, other than her two.”

It would be interesting to have an assessment of the accuracy of that translation from a Portuguese speaker.
Scroll down to the bottom of the statement, 7th paragraph up.....
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
***
"A depoente nunca foi ver qualquer criança, além dos seus"

With my very limited understanding of Portuguese, I would translate this as "other than their own" ...

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Monty Heck on 25.11.12 10:49

Jenns Today at 8:45 am




In her interview with Leicester police in April 08, part 2 of 3, Fiona Payne reports Kate asking her opinion on leaving the apartment unlocked..........Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find them, or waking and finding them not there and the doors locked. (What a dilemma for them!)

Apparently this conversation took place because Madeleine had previously woken.

Doesn`t this indicate that the prospect of her waking was acknowledged, discussed and actually catered for by leaving the apartment unlocked......that it was thought not unreasonable for a child of this age to leave the apartment at night to look for her parents and maybe even considered preferable to her waking with the doors locked and finding them gone?


That the possibility of the children waking and/or coming to look for them was discussed would indicate that the children would be physically able to do so, and therefore supports the claim that they were not being sedated of an evening. Whether it was actually discussed or brought up by FP in order to debunk any theory regarding sedation is a moot point and something for the police investigation to have unravelled, but the investigators didn't seem to take much interest in exploring this in much detail.

Re the "tea" stain when no tea had been drunk, is this not suggestive of the abductor having administered a sedative dose the previous evening during the "dry run" which KM, in obvious ignorance of this at the time, had assumed to be tea the folllowing day when deciding to wash the garment? Another subtle detail which, if true, could support the abduction story but alas the garment was washed and the "evidence" unfortunately lost.

Re putting the medicines in the bag with a clasp out of sight in the wardrobe/drawer; the only interpretation of this could be that the medicines had been taken out with a view to being used, if not actually used, otherwise they would have been left where they had been put, safely out of sight. In attempting to demonstrate how careful they were with potential hazards when leaving the children, has more than was intended revealed? Another subtle point which again, the investigators unfortunately didn't seem to have shown much interest in exploring further with the witness.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Jenns on 25.11.12 11:11

I just felt that the conversation regarding planning for the prospect of Madeleine waking and leaving the apartment seems less publicised than the "in case of fire" reason given for leaving it unlocked............and emphasises in my opinion the apparent lack of concern for the safety issues involved should a child of that age leave at night to look for her parents.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by monkey mind on 25.11.12 11:23

Châtelaine wrote:
@monkey mind wrote:[...]
She never checked on any other child, other than her two.”

It would be interesting to have an assessment of the accuracy of that translation from a Portuguese speaker.
Scroll down to the bottom of the statement, 7th paragraph up.....
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
***
"A depoente nunca foi ver qualquer criança, além dos seus"

With my very limited understanding of Portuguese, I would translate this as "other than their own" ...
Chatelaine,

I’m really most grateful for somebody taking the time to answer my original question to the best of their ability. Thank you.

Is there no one here fluent in Portuguese - who can translate the entire paragraph with certainty?

Because if that was an accurate translation of that paragraph it would appear there were only two children there rendering all this talk of tablets, scissors, cutting implements, drugs, worktops, cut out books, getting out of bed, wandering around etc a mute point as M probably wasn’t there!

So back to the original topic.

1. If that is an inaccurate translation as Chatelaine implies we can drop the matter there.

2. But if it is an accurate translation then is the document in Portuguese merely a summary of a taped interview which would inevitably contain KM’s exact words. If it is an accurate translation and a précis of a taped interview then it makes it highly likely those were an accurate reflection of her words. If that is the case she is claiming only two children.

And that, is quite a slip.

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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Guest on 25.11.12 11:38

Hi monkeymind,

Is this the piece you are referring to, if so it is different on the maccannfiles towards the end 7th paragraph up from bottom)........

KM statement 6th Sept 2007

Concerning the checks on the children, she said that Gerry was the first one to check on the children, this was decided on the spot, at around 9-9:05 p.m. He got up from the table and entered the apartment through the balcony door. He came back to the table ten minutes later; he implied that the children were asleep and that he’d met a tennis friend by the name of Jez, with whom he had a chat. During this check, she thinks that Gerry did not check on the children of any other couple, because it was usual just to check on their own children. She never checked on any other child, other than her own.



http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta5




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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by monkey mind on 25.11.12 13:13

candyfloss wrote:Hi monkeymind,

Is this the piece you are referring to, if so it is different on the maccannfiles towards the end 7th paragraph up from bottom)........

KM statement 6th Sept 2007

Concerning the checks on the children, she said that Gerry was the first one to check on the children, this was decided on the spot, at around 9-9:05 p.m. He got up from the table and entered the apartment through the balcony door. He came back to the table ten minutes later; he implied that the children were asleep and that he’d met a tennis friend by the name of Jez, with whom he had a chat. During this check, she thinks that Gerry did not check on the children of any other couple, because it was usual just to check on their own children. She never checked on any other child, other than her own.



http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta5

Hello Candyfloss,

The translation I have is from the PJ Police files and appears to be different.....bottom of the page, 7th para up....

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm


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Re: Onlychecked on her *two*....

Post by Guest on 25.11.12 13:18

No tocante à verificação dos filhos, disse que o primeiro a ir ver as crianças foi o GERRY, por decisão no local, cerca das 21H00-21H05. Ele levantou-se da mesa e entrou no apartamento pela porta da varanda. Regressou à mesa passados dez minutos, este insinuou que as crianças estavam a dormir e que tinha encontrado um amigo de ténis de nome JEZ, com quem conversara. Durante esta visita o GERRY, ao que julga, não viu os filhos de qualquer outro casal, até porque o normal era cada um visitar os seus filhos. A depoente nunca foi ver qualquer criança, além dos seus.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Processopdf10page49Kateinterrogatio.jpg

The last sentence reads to me [again with very limited knowledge of Portuguese] as: The deponent never went to look at other children, only her [their] own.

I am puzzled as to where “Kate” and “She” came from in the various translations I’ve seen here so far ...

Out to lunch now [to eat ;-) ]. Will be back later.

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