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Purporting the children weren't left alone

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Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:19 pm

I can't accept that the children were left alone each night so exploring the alternative

1. Did they hire a private nanny to look after some/all of them
- They knew CB from the creche but it'd explain why CP was so supportive
- It's more likely for something to happen that neither the parents or MW wanted known.
- Would they feel comfortable leaving their children with the minders

2. Did they all sleep in the same apartment or did some/all parents use monitors
- The Paynes were pretty insistent they did their own thing
- How many monitors did they really have and what were they used for
- Would they feel comfortable leaving their children with the minders

3. Did they take it in turns to mind all children or did one of each couple/group take it in turns
- It explains why there was always someone missing from the tapas
- It explains the "relieving him" joke they'd been cracking all week
- It'd make more sense to do a split shift so everyone got fresh food and some enjoyment each night

4. Which apartment/s were used for babysitting
- 5A makes more sense to me, shortest distance from Tapas but could also have been Payne's
- It explains why sheets were removed from cots and why the twins were sedated, what if they left something slip?
- It explains why McCann kids had no afternoon nap, they'd have to be sleeping before the others arrived.
- What about forensics

5. What did they really do on that first night?
- First night of hols, kids to bed very early, they all loved wine, beer and conversation..

6. What really happened to Madeleine?
- whatever it was they all had to know

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by bobbin on Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:58 pm

Finn wrote:I can't accept that the children were left alone each night so exploring the alternative

1. Did they hire a private nanny to look after some/all of them
- They knew CB from the creche but it'd explain why CP was so supportive
- It's more likely for something to happen that neither the parents or MW wanted known.
- Would they feel comfortable leaving their children with the minders

2. Did they all sleep in the same apartment or did some/all parents use monitors
- The Paynes were pretty insistent they did their own thing
- How many monitors did they really have and what were they used for
- Would they feel comfortable leaving their children with the minders

3. Did they take it in turns to mind all children or did one of each couple/group take it in turns
- It explains why there was always someone missing from the tapas
- It explains the "relieving him" joke they'd been cracking all week
- It'd make more sense to do a split shift so everyone got fresh food and some enjoyment each night

4. Which apartment/s were used for babysitting
- 5A makes more sense to me, shortest distance from Tapas but could also have been Payne's
- It explains why sheets were removed from cots and why the twins were sedated, what if they left something slip?
- It explains why McCann kids had no afternoon nap, they'd have to be sleeping before the others arrived.
- What about forensics

5. What did they really do on that first night?
- First night of hols, kids to bed very early, they all loved wine, beer and conversation..

6. What really happened to Madeleine?
- whatever it was they all had to know

I have been puzzled from the very start. They are all such self-centred 'me, me, me' people, why on earth would they contemplate breaking a meal up by leaving the table.
Conversations start and flow, food arrives hot, time to relax, plenty of wine, they're 'all into each other'.
The evenings are 'off duty' times, a short moment to savour and enjoy themselves, after a hard day doing their own things, avoiding the children where possible (creche) or having to look after them (afternoons).
Would any reasonable person go on a week's holiday, go out to have dinner, and keep jumping up and down in between starters and mains, to do a hike to a building to see if the kids are still silent.
It's all B***S***.
If there was any going backwards and forwards it will have been for nefarious reasons IMO.
They had enough money (since they were skin-flint enough to down the local free wine) to pay a babysitter.
No question about that.
What self-centred person would be bothered enough to leave the swinging party to go off into the dark on family duty having already decided to abandon the kids to the darkness and danger for the other 25 minutes either side of the 30 minute regular visits.
Tapas 9, I don't buy it.

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:12 pm

@bobbin wrote: I have been puzzled from the very start. They are all such self-centred 'me, me, me' people, why on earth would they contemplate breaking a meal up by leaving the table.
Conversations start and flow, food arrives hot, time to relax, plenty of wine, they're 'all into each other'.
The evenings are 'off duty' times, a short moment to savour and enjoy themselves, after a hard day doing their own things, avoiding the children where possible (creche) or having to look after them (afternoons).
Would any reasonable person go on a week's holiday, go out to have dinner, and keep jumping up and down in between starters and mains, to do a hike to a building to see if the kids are still silent.
It's all B***S***.
If there was any going backwards and forwards it will have been for nefarious reasons IMO.
They had enough money (since they were skin-flint enough to down the local free wine) to pay a babysitter.
No question about that.
What self-centred person would be bothered enough to leave the swinging party to go off into the dark on family duty having already decided to abandon the kids to the darkness and danger for the other 25 minutes either side of the 30 minute regular visits.
Tapas 9, I don't buy it.

You're right, they are way too self centred and the chaos would never have worked. Good way of losing weight though if you think about it. It wouldn't have worked with the volume of alcohol they were consuming either. It's interesting what you say about a swinging party. I know it's been suggested in a few places. It might explain groups of people hopping up together as would fetching and carrying food and drinks.

I have some puzzles, one is that on some occasions Kate and David Payne were put together. One was the night of the quiz, they were both missing and the other is during bath time on 3rd. But in addition David Payne checked the McCann kids (according to Gerry but not DP). But apart form this neither the McCanns nor Paynes seemed to be missing from the table. So does this mean that Paynes and McCanns had a babysitter while Oldfield/O Brien minded their own kids. Or a combination of both. And if they had babysitters why did they continually leave the table?

And if K and DP were babysitting on the Tuesday night why was Madeleine crying for her daddy?

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by SkruffyKat on Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:31 pm

You know what I don't get??? Diane Webster. If my mum went on holiday with me and my son, you can bet your life that she would be telling me that she would stay and watch my son if I wanted to go out to eat and drink in the evening. She wouldn't be at the restaurant with me!

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:40 pm

@SkruffyKat wrote:You know what I don't get??? Diane Webster. If my mum went on holiday with me and my son, you can bet your life that she would be telling me that she would stay and watch my son if I wanted to go out to eat and drink in the evening. She wouldn't be at the restaurant with me!

It's a very interesting point, SkruffyKat. I have wondered about Diane and what she was doing in PDL in the first place. Do you think this is why the Paynes were designated as the ones with the monitor (so nobody would question why DW didn't step in) or maybe it's because they didn't want her knowing what really happened.

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by SkruffyKat on Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:59 pm

Hmmm I'm not sure there Finn. I would need to do a bit more reading before I offered an opinion, but it just strikes me as odd. Most English families, or at least most English families I know, would have grandparents there as a baby sitting service on alternate nights (so the grandparents can also enjoy the break) and indeed, I have friends who have paid for the grandparents to go on the holiday, so they don't have to worry about who they are leaving their children with.

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by Smokeandmirrors on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:14 am

Finn wrote:
@SkruffyKat wrote:You know what I don't get??? Diane Webster. If my mum went on holiday with me and my son, you can bet your life that she would be telling me that she would stay and watch my son if I wanted to go out to eat and drink in the evening. She wouldn't be at the restaurant with me!

It's a very interesting point, SkruffyKat. I have wondered about Diane and what she was doing in PDL in the first place. Do you think this is why the Paynes were designated as the ones with the monitor (so nobody would question why DW didn't step in) or maybe it's because they didn't want her knowing what really happened.

Very good points by both of you. This has bothered me also, as I know people who have brought a lone granny on hols with them, so the granny can shop/sightsee during the day while the parents are romping on the hot beach with the kids, and then in the evenings granny is a babysitter so the parents can have a couple of nights out because they rarely get the chance at home.

Why would DW want to come along and be the odd one out? And if she were there why would she be so uninvolved with the children? Unless she is one of those selfish types who just muscled in.

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by tigger on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:30 am

I've said it before - middle aged women are invisible. I think there's more to DW than meets the eye.
DW also switched on a mobile that had been offline for days on the evening of the 3rd. Around 7.30 to 8.00 DP and DW switched on their mobiles.
Whereas the man who got everything wrong, MO, switched on after the event.

On the other hand, if there was a nanny looking after the children, my idea is that the helpful Pennington:
who was on the same flight as some of the Tapas. (JT and ROB)
who apparently wasn't assigned to a creche
who was helpful with early sightings on the night over and above what one could expect
who may have known the McCanns in New Zealand through her father who worked at the same hospital etc.

may just have been on the OC staff after the event. Imo OC was helpful over and above what could be expected at the time. Getting Bell and Pottinger out, Woofall, etc. sounds like heavy guns for a child that could have wandered off.
That is also the reason why I don't believe Tierney and her vanishing printer.

Everybody who has helped the McCanns in whatever way had their own reasons for doing so. Imo of course.

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by SkruffyKat on Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:39 am

Hmmmmm was there really a baby monitor or did they both turn their mobiles on to ACT as a baby monitor? One phone in with the kids and another phone on loud speaker (or hands free) at the table... I'd be interested to know if their mobile phones had a walkie talkie feature. Anyone know what phones they had?

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by tigger on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:50 pm

@SkruffyKat wrote:Hmmmmm was there really a baby monitor or did they both turn their mobiles on to ACT as a baby monitor? One phone in with the kids and another phone on loud speaker (or hands free) at the table... I'd be interested to know if their mobile phones had a walkie talkie feature. Anyone know what phones they had?

The mobile phone data have nothing to do with babysitting. The significance of both switching on after I believe a gap of some 70 plus hours is that this indicates they knew they were going to need them that evening. Therefore they were 'in the loop' imo. Whereas, as I pointed out, MO wasn't, as he didn't switch on until afterwards and made mistake after mistake.
Therefore I rate DW a more important person than just granny taken along to babysit. Which she didn't do.


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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by SkruffyKat on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:42 pm

Hi tigger :) do you know off hand how long the phones were switched on for? We're they switched on and left on for the rest of the evening? I'm just being lazy here not looking for it myself, sorry!

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by tigger on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:50 pm

@SkruffyKat wrote:Hi tigger :) do you know off hand how long the phones were switched on for? We're they switched on and left on for the rest of the evening? I'm just being lazy here not looking for it myself, sorry!

This is from a tweet by Kikoratton, the expert on the phone analyses.

"Strange that Webster and Payne were silent for between 75 and 90 hours, and then happened to switch on their mobiles at 1930, 2000 on 3/5."

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by SkruffyKat on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:54 pm

@tigger wrote:
@SkruffyKat wrote:Hi tigger :) do you know off hand how long the phones were switched on for? We're they switched on and left on for the rest of the evening? I'm just being lazy here not looking for it myself, sorry!

This is from a tweet by Kikoratton, the expert on the phone analyses.

"Strange that Webster and Payne were silent for between 75 and 90 hours, and then happened to switch on their mobiles at 1930, 2000 on 3/5."

I wasn't implying that you were wrong in what you were saying re them being switched on. But you didn't answer my question. If you don't know then I will see if I can find it somewhere myself :)

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by Nina on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:55 pm

could never understand why DW went on that holiday. The only thing she seemed to be part of was making sandwiches at lunch time and the evening booze up. And, she slept on the sofa bed in the lounge.

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by SkruffyKat on Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:58 pm

@Nina wrote: could never understand why DW went on that holiday. The only thing she seemed to be part of was making sandwiches at lunch time and the evening booze up. And, she slept on the sofa bed in the lounge.

Yes, not your standard granny on the family holiday :)

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by tigger on Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:39 pm

@SkruffyKat wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@SkruffyKat wrote:Hi tigger :) do you know off hand how long the phones were switched on for? We're they switched on and left on for the rest of the evening? I'm just being lazy here not looking for it myself, sorry!

This is from a tweet by Kikoratton, the expert on the phone analyses.

"Strange that Webster and Payne were silent for between 75 and 90 hours, and then happened to switch on their mobiles at 1930, 2000 on 3/5."

I wasn't implying that you were wrong in what you were saying re them being switched on. But you didn't answer my question. If you don't know then I will see if I can find it somewhere myself :)

As you can see from the quote the phones weren't switched on for nearly three full days and nights, therefore it's unlikely that mobiles were used to keep an eye on the children. As all sorts of things were happening as from 9.30 onwards, I expect the phones stayed on.
Imo I answered your question on whether they were on for baby monitoring.
There are a number of phone threads/topics which may give you further information. Good luck with the search.

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by SkruffyKat on Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:53 pm

I was just wondering if they had been switched on to check for messages and then switched off again after that had been done. Mobile roaming charges in foreign countries can be massive, and we all know that they didn't even want to pay for a babysitter to be in the apartments. It could have been innocent and not that they were in the loop

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:35 pm

There are some very interesting points of view. I suppose it's hard to avoid the stereotypical idea of the granny though I might get beaten up about it in my own home. It can't have been much fun for DW and it doesn't sound like she was using it as an opportunity to spend time with the kids.

I'm conscious we're only going by what the statements say, things could have been very different. There are a lot of things that I need to check like who signed the Payne kids in and out and Tigger's point about the phones. Like SkruffyKat, I need to find the full phone data and try lining it up with the statements.

It's very curious about CP and I agree, Tigger, she must have been involved. She said something about having read Madeleine a story at some point, a strange thing to do at a creche where they have activities and more like a bed time thing. I got the impression that ROB felt she was insisting she shared the flight with the McCanns and he refuted this twice I think. I need to go back. And also to see if she was definitely a MW employee, any chance she was brought in by the McCanns as a guest and later named as a MW employee? (I remember seeing something about an extra bed). There's also a possibility that there was more in the group and can't remember any statements verifying that the same 9 adults dined every night. I think I remember reading that the McCanns dined at another restaurant one night.

I keep thinking if I had no babysitter and was on hols with kids and 7 other adults I'd rather arrange babysitter shifts where one or two adults would each do half an hour particularly in a Tapas with many courses. It'd be a lot safer and much less disruptive. Also wondering which would be the best apartment to sleep the kids in.


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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by SkruffyKat on Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:39 pm

What if Madeleine's crying, heard by mrs fenn, was km crying instead... Release all the grief then you can be a blank canvas so to speak.....

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by saltnpepper on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:17 pm

@SkruffyKat wrote:What if Madeleine's crying, heard by mrs fenn, was km crying instead... Release all the grief then you can be a blank canvas so to speak.....

Maddie Maddie sounds like daddy daddy as heard by mrs Fenn but the McCanns claim they never called their daughter Maddie,Kate hailing from Liverpool,wouldn't it be in her dna to shorten names?
I think the children were left alone with regular checking/ but only as a role for the plan to go ahead after the possible accident,before this there was a tapas member sick/baby sitting & theres always Dianne Webster who sticks out in that group like a sore thumb

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by SkruffyKat on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:45 pm

Excellent point s&p :) and yes it is in a Scousers DNA to do so :) to the point were the names in my family are either short already, cannot be shortened, or are acceptable when shortened. I am Katherine, but shortened to Katie (unless in trouble - hahah!). I believe the only exception is my niece who is Beth, which is lengthened to Bethie. One of my aunts I actually call ace, as per her initials. I believe Madeleine was called Maddie by her parents, otherwise the twins and other family members would not call her this. My son has a name that can be shortened, but I never allow anyone to shorten it. He is called by his first name in full, and even the nursery staff aren't allowed to get away with making it shorter. I'm sure when he gets older, his name will shorten, but everyone around him knows to call him by his full first name, even the kids in the family.

Interestingly, in the case of James Bulger, the press called him Jamie, or baby James. His mother used to go mad when the press called him Jamie, as that wasn't the name he responded to. The press were accused of using reports to gain 'sympathy sales'. The reports seemed much sadder when Jamie was used, rather than James, which sounds more grown up.

I'm going to and watch some early footage to see what the family and friends called her. My family and friends would know it was important to call my son by the name he responds to if anything ever happened to him.

Hope this all makes sense, cos I'm knackered, sorry!

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:53 pm

@SkruffyKat wrote:Excellent point s&p :) and yes it is in a Scousers DNA to do so :) to the point were the names in my family are either short already, cannot be shortened, or are acceptable when shortened. I am Katherine, but shortened to Katie (unless in trouble - hahah!). I believe the only exception is my niece who is Beth, which is lengthened to Bethie. One of my aunts I actually call ace, as per her initials. I believe Madeleine was called Maddie by her parents, otherwise the twins and other family members would not call her this. My son has a name that can be shortened, but I never allow anyone to shorten it. He is called by his first name in full, and even the nursery staff aren't allowed to get away with making it shorter. I'm sure when he gets older, his name will shorten, but everyone around him knows to call him by his full first name, even the kids in the family.

Interestingly, in the case of James Bulger, the press called him Jamie, or baby James. His mother used to go mad when the press called him Jamie, as that wasn't the name he responded to. The press were accused of using reports to gain 'sympathy sales'. The reports seemed much sadder when Jamie was used, rather than James, which sounds more grown up.

I'm going to and watch some early footage to see what the family and friends called her. My family and friends would know it was important to call my son by the name he responds to if anything ever happened to him.

Hope this all makes sense, cos I'm knackered, sorry!

You might be interested to read this SK, Maddie or Madeleine. Most of the family and friends called her Maddie. Even GM himself on his Friends Reunited page...........

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id169.html

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by SkruffyKat on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:05 pm

Please don't think I'm weird, but I actually got goosebumps reading that! Thank you for pointing me in that direction. Definitely, without a doubt, from a scousers point of view that child was called Maddie by everyone who knew her. If her parents called her Madeleine, then hardly any of those people would call her Maddie. Surely if you thought there was a chance that your child might hear reports on the tv (and to me, an abductor would watch the news) then everyone would be calling her by the name she responded to. If that was Madeline, then everyone would call her Madeleine.

The 'Madeleine' to me is more of the 'we are established, professional and upper class' image that needed to be maintained to be believable.

All IMO of course.

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by PeterMac on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:20 pm

@SkruffyKat wrote:
The 'Madeleine' to me is more of the 'we are established, professional and upper class' image that needed to be maintained to be believable.
All IMO of course.
Except that from Gerry's mouth it comes out as
Maaaa d'l'n.

If you are going to do the "established, professional, and upper middle class" thing, you need to use RP.

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Re: Purporting the children weren't left alone

Post by sami on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:21 pm

Kate has referred to Sean has Seany in the past.

Scousers do it, Irish do it, I do not know about the Scotts. Adding the sound "ee" at the end of a name is very very common. Usually the full version of a name is used to display annoyance to a child. So, the little girl would be Maddie on a day to day basis, but Madeleine if you wanted to be stern or reprimand a little one.

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