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Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

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Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Guest on 20.10.12 18:13

On Wednesday 2nd May the routine seems to have changed somewhat. They had been using the front door with key up until Tuesday, GM says that was the routine, and no-one checking each others children. What prompted the plan to change and the patio door suddenly left open .. It certainly wasn't because of the crying incident, that was actually on the wednesday night, yet they changed their routing before going out that night. We have David Payne suddenly checking the children and we have KM sleeping in another bedroom (Madeleine's) and we have the door system changed from using the front door to using the patio door?

GM WITNESS STATEMENT 10 May 2007

Sunday 30th April 2007

They left the house through the main door, that he was sure he locked, and the back door was also closed and locked. They were the first to arrive at the TAPAS where everyone showed up except only for MATHEW, who was still ill. Nevertheless, his wife RACHEL showed up for dinner. Except for the situation described above, that occurred during lunch, he did not see MATHEW during the whole of Sunday.


Wednesday 2 May

On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that DAVID PAYNE also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children. On this day, the deponent and KATE had already left the back door closed, but not locked, to allow entrance by their group colleagues to check on the children. He clarifies that the main door was always closed but not necessarily locked with the key. He does not know if the window next to the front door, and that gave access to the children's bedroom, was locked, given that he assumed that the shutters could not be opened from the outside. Still on this night, KATE slept in the children's bedroom, in the bed next to the window, because the deponent was snoring.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta1

Firstly, didn't the tapas say the only checked their own children? Apart from Thursday 3 May, when we had a check by one of them. Were any more checks mentioned, I can't recall any???

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Woofer on 20.10.12 18:20

candyfloss - I thought the crying incident was on Tues 1st because Mrs. Fenn went out on the Wednesday evening. I may be wrong.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Woofer on 20.10.12 18:25

Wasn`t the Tuesday also when GM invited the voluptuous quiz lady to join them?

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Guest on 20.10.12 18:29

@Woofer wrote:candyfloss - I thought the crying incident was on Tues 1st because Mrs. Fenn went out on the Wednesday evening. I may be wrong.

Not according to GM witness statement 10 May 2007, it was on the Wednesday night 2nd May as in post of mine, here he says on the Thursday Madeleine tells them of the crying last night which would have been wednesday.......



GM statement 10 May 2007

On the day that MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time, between 07H30 and 08H00. When they were having breakfast, MADELEINE addressed her mother and asked her "why didn't you come last night when SEAN and I were crying?" That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never spoken like this and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal. When he questioned her about the comment, she left without any explanation.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta1

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Woofer on 20.10.12 18:37

Hi candyfloss - yes, I remember that, but there was crying on the 1st according to Mrs. Fenn - maybe there was crying on both nights or they made it up to discredit anyone that had heard the crying on the Tuesday and give them a reason to say someone had entered the appartment on the Wednesday.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Woofer on 20.10.12 18:40

I strongly suspect something major happened on the Tuesday, leading them to change the arrangements on the Wednesday. It could be to do with the quiz lady and the fact that KM slept with the kids that night - don`t believe it was because GM was snoring.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Nina on 20.10.12 18:56

@Woofer wrote:I strongly suspect something major happened on the Tuesday, leading them to change the arrangements on the Wednesday. It could be to do with the quiz lady and the fact that KM slept with the kids that night - don`t believe it was because GM was snoring.

I believe the Tuesday night was when something happened, it is when the crying was heard by Mrs Fenn, also KM's telephone calls were increased if I remember correctly. And then, on the wednesday morning when the cleaner came both Kate and Gerry were in the apartment, but no children. Now that was strange. making supper at the moment but unable to give links, but will afterwards if insisted upon airkiss

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Woofer on 20.10.12 19:03

I was wrong about KM having slept in the single bed in the kids room on the Tuesday, so maybe they were telling the truth about KM sleeping separately on the Wednesday. The single bed had not been used on the Tuesday night according to the cleaner that came in on Wednesday morning, although one of the twins cribs had been transferred to the parent`s room Tuesday night.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Woofer on 20.10.12 19:06

@Nina wrote:
@Woofer wrote:I strongly suspect something major happened on the Tuesday, leading them to change the arrangements on the Wednesday. It could be to do with the quiz lady and the fact that KM slept with the kids that night - don`t believe it was because GM was snoring.

I believe the Tuesday night was when something happened, it is when the crying was heard by Mrs Fenn, also KM's telephone calls were increased if I remember correctly. And then, on the wednesday morning when the cleaner came both Kate and Gerry were in the apartment, but no children. Now that was strange. making supper at the moment but unable to give links, but will afterwards if insisted upon

It might not have been strange Nina - the cleaner assumed the kids had already been taken to the creche.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Guest on 20.10.12 19:25

I'm sort of more interested in why he (GM) says David Payne checked the children on Wednesday night? Is this in any other statement? I can't recall it at all. Also somehow they must have made arrangements because they had already decided to leave by the patio door on Wednesday night, contrary to the nights before when they used the front door. Why was the routine changed at that night, Wednesday. I though the only checking that happened by others was on the Thursday night the night Madeleine disappeared, and even then, they were only checking at the window, apart from the one check in which one of the tapas (was it MO) went briefly inside.

Does anyone recall any tapas statements where they checked on Madeleine any other night of that holiday.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by fabpete on 20.10.12 19:26

In Gerry McCanns statement of 4th may 2007
he stated that he entered the apartment by using his key

Thus,
at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door
being locked
, and went to
the children's bedroom
and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. He
then went to the toilet, where
he remained for a few
instants, left the apartment, and then crossed ways with someone with
whom he had played tennis, who
had a baby buggy, also a
British citizen, with whom he had a brief conversation. He then
returned to the restaurant. At around
9.30 pm, his friend MATT
(a member of the group) went to his apartment where his own children
were, and on his way he went
into the deponent's
apartment, going in through a sliding glass door at the side of the
building, which was always unlocked
.
He went into the room,
saw the twins and didn’t even notice if Madeleine was there, as
everything was quiet, the shutters
closed and the bedroom
door half-open as usual. Then MATT went back to the restaurant.

But he then went on to say that Matt Oldfield did a later visit using the patio door that was always unlocked, which begs the question, why walk past the patio door entrance to walk further and then enter the apartment with a key?

The 2nd May seems to stand out like a sore thumb, very little comment about that day, very little from what I remember in the book, leaving it wide open for something to have happened, but why then does Mr Amaral consider the 3rd May to be the day?
I am aware as we all are of the statements by the Nannies, but from other threads on here, we can see that they cannot be completely taken on face value.
I have this thing with anything that the McCanns state as having happened, didnt happen, therefore, if the McCanns say abduction 3rd May I would be very tempted to say wrong day as well as wrong scenario, meaning to my skewed logic they want us to believe something so obviously we have to look at the opposite to where they want us to look?

God, I'm sounding more barmy by the minute!

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Guest on 20.10.12 19:32

David Payne:
In answer to our question, the interviewee states that during all the meals, he never went to his apartment or to any of the group's apartments, because he has an, "intercom," and the signal carries from the apartment to the restaurant. The other members of the group went, randomly, every 20 minutes, to their apartments to make sure their respective children were asleep.


David Payne, rogatory interview April 2008
1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children? I know you say that you didn’t have to check yours.”
Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check.




http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/tapas-9-checking-children.html



So David Payne says he never checked his own apartment or anyone elses. Yet GM says he checked on his children (GM's) on Wednesday 3rd.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Guest on 20.10.12 19:35

This is rather good from Joana, where the tapas are saying they checked every 15 mins, and other discrepencies..........

Tapas 9: Checking the Children

11 May 2009 | Posted by KazluxLeave a Comment

Statements May 4th, 2007:

Kate McCann:
As usual, every half hour, and given that the building is very close, the interviewee and her husband went to make sure the children were OK.

Gerry McCann:
As usual, every half hour and considering that the restaurant was close to the apartment, the interviewee or his wife went to check if the children were OK.

Rachael Oldfield:
After placing their orders, at around 9.15pm, Gerry McCann went to check, only his apartment. He was held up for nearly 10 minutes because, he said, he had been chatting with Jez about tennis. Today there was a tournament which they both had to compete in. During Gerry's absence, the waiters started to bring the food. Jane was also absent to check her apartment. Gerry returned shortly after Jane.

Matthew Oldfield:
That during the meal, it was usual that every 15 minutes (as on all nights) one of the adults went to the apartments to check if the children were sleeping. That normally this checking was done inside the apartments (Visual checking), but that, to be honest, sometimes this checking was only done from the outside, near the bedroom windows (Auditory checking).

Russell O'Brien:
While they were eating, it was normal that every 15 minutes, one person from each apartment went to make sure the children were ok.

Jane Tanner:
Usually, every 15 minutes one person from each apartment went to the respective rooms to make sure everything was OK.

Diane Webster:
However, she reported that Kate and Gerald as well as other couples went a few times, on a regular basis, to make sure their children were OK.

Fiona Payne:
The interviewee states that Kate and Gerry, as well as other couples, went to the club a few times, at regular intervals, to make sure the children were ok.

David Payne:
In answer to our question, the interviewee states that during all the meals, he never went to his apartment or to any of the group's apartments, because he has an, "intercom," and the signal carries from the apartment to the restaurant. The other members of the group went, randomly, every 20 minutes, to their apartments to make sure their respective children were asleep.

Gerry McCann, statement May 10th, 2007:
On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, as well as he and his wife, he thinks that David Payne also went to his apartment to confirm that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children. On this day he and KATE had already left the rear door closed, but not locked, to allow entrance by their colleagues to check on the children.

Russell O'Brien, rogatory interview April 2008:
I actually went into Kate and Gerry’s room, erm, on the Sunday and Matt’s room on the Sunday (...)
On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s’, that’s true. Erm, I’m not sure about taking their keys, I think I, I think I definitely took Matt and Rachael’s keys, but I entered Gerry’s flat through the patio door”.
(...) “This was just the Wednesday. This is when we stayed, you know, after the meal we stayed in the bar area for a, you know, for a cocktail or something and then, erm, so we were out for a little longer than any of, any of the other nights. And on the, but the way it’s written there it says that I checked the McCann’s apartment, but I think by this part of the week, certainly on my, from my, my own, when I went back I generally went into our apartment and then we’d just have a listen at the shutters on the others”.

Rachael Oldfield, rogatory interview April 2008
1578 “So there was this rigorous checking procedure”?
Reply “Yes, yeah every night”.
1578 “Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday evening”?
Reply “Mmm yeah”.
1578 “And of course Thursday evening”?
Reply “Mmm yeah”.
1578 “So on, on a normal evening”.
Reply “Mmm”.
1578 “How many times would, would yourself and, and Matthew have gone to check on Grace”?
Reply “Erm I suppose, we’d sit at the table about eight thirty, so erm we probably went about two or three times each during the course of the meal, erm yeah, well Sunday night Matt wasn’t there but he was in the apartment with Grace so I didn’t check, Monday night we were both at the table, erm and we just took turns”.
1578 “And did you wear watches”?
Reply “Yes”.
(...)
until the Thursday, we only checked on her own children,
(...)
I mean you know, that, and that was different to the other nights cos you know, we hadn’t done that before you know, that hadn’t been part of the routine, sort of listening, even listening at other people’s windows,
(...)
“And on the Thursday night you know it worked slightly differently and there was much more movement and much more checking than there had been on other nights for some strange reason, I mean not for anything particular but just that’s the way it happened, erm yeah and erm up until that night, each family had only checked on their own children, erm whereas on the Thursday, you know Matt, Matt when and checked on Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, erm you know and that hadn’t happened before”.

Matthew Oldfield, rogatory interview April 2008
“So, erm, back to the table, erm, we have, oh, back to the table, Gerry got up to go and, to go and check on his kids, I mean, and I’d come back and said, you know, I didn’t hear any noise when I listened outside your room, so I thought it was a little bit odd that, you know, not kind of a wounded pride that he sort of didn’t trust me, but, erm, I just thought, oh, you know, I’ve just checked you don’t really need to check and sort of, you know, sort of go back, but, erm, he sort of got up and went back to check on, erm, on his kids.
(...)
4078 “Was that the first time that you had taken it upon yourself to check on somebody else’s child?”
Reply “Yeah, I’d not done it before, it was only because, you know, I was there and I was, and it may not have happened if I’d actually gone in and checked on Grace through the room, you know, I might not have just been next to their shutter in terms of to actually have a listen, you know, I was just there, it was only like four steps further. But, no, I didn’t, even though we now knew each other for the week and I felt a bit more comfortable about their kids knowing me, as I said before, erm, I wouldn’t normally sort of impose that sort of check on somebody else unless they’d, erm, unless they’d suggested it. It’d be almost like a step, not a step too far, but, erm, it’s not really our place to, you know, to do that”.
(...)
And there was me and Russell as well, so, erm, you know, it seemed, at the time, a very reasonable thing to do, even though it was the first time that we’d certainly done it. Also, having somebody else there with me, it sort of felt sort of more, more sort of natural and normal.
(...)
It would have been around that sort of time and the reason I think thirty minutes is because I, I don’t know whether this is memory now or whether it’s since we’ve been talking about it, Gerry said or Kate said, it’s about thirty minutes since the last check, we ought to go, so that’s why I think it’s thirty minutes, erm, because I think that main course would have taken a bit longer because, you know, Russell came back and we started chatting, you know, how’s Evie and all that sort of thing, erm, so, I think he was still eating at the time, so we waited until he’d finished before we went”.

Fiona Payne, rogatory interview April 2008
I think, on the whole, I wasn’t really aware of people cross checking each other’s children, although on the night and previous nights there would have been the odd occasion where somebody was, was, was going and saying ‘Oh I’ve listened in at your door and your kids are fine’ or ‘I’ve checked on yours and they’re fine’, so there was a bit of that going on, but, on the whole, people checked their own children. Erm, and, again, on the actual night Madeleine was taken, that was, was very much different, I think, to, to previous nights, in that, there was probably more cross checking that night”.
(...)
but I’d say on, on the first few nights it all seemed, erm, fairly well spaced, you know, like people going together, that was just a feeling, a general feeling that I’m giving you. Erm, whereas, again, that differed on the Thursday night, in that, it seemed more, erm, out of, people were more out of synch.

David Payne, rogatory interview April 2008
1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children? I know you say that you didn’t have to check yours.”
Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/tapas-9-checking-children.html

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by sami on 20.10.12 19:36

candyfloss wrote: Wednesday 2 May

On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that DAVID PAYNE also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children. On this day, the deponent and KATE had already left the back door closed, but not locked, to allow entrance by their group colleagues to check on the children. He clarifies that the main door was always closed but not necessarily locked with the key. He does not know if the window next to the front door, and that gave access to the children's bedroom, was locked, given that he assumed that the shutters could not be opened from the outside. Still on this night, KATE slept in the children's bedroom, in the bed next to the window, because the deponent was snoring.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta1

Firstly, didn't the tapas say the only checked their own children? Apart from Thursday 3 May, when we had a check by one of them. Were any more checks mentioned, I can't recall any???


David Payne gave the impression he did no checking at all because he had his monitor


"they
all looked after their own children, they all went to look on their own
children from each of the nights but you
know I was just, you
know slightly oblivious to this because we’d set up ours and you know I
know everyone went at some
stage.



Why would Gerry think Payne did a check. He did not get up from the table at all. Even if he were to use the toilet, surely the one in the Tapas was easier - the one Wilkins stopped to use when he was out walking his child in the buggy.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Guest on 20.10.12 19:40

It is the Wednesday night that GM says he (DP) thinks he did a check, David Payne says he didn't. No-one else did either. GM says they used the patio door on Wednesday so others could check, and yet no-one did, apart from maybe David Payne.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by sami on 20.10.12 19:45

Wednesday is also the day Kate wishes she could go back to, in her book. She says something about if she could go back to the day before and see who was watching them. I found that a strange point in time to pick. Most would say turn back the clock to when they got up that morning (Thur) or indeed, to the point where the holiday started and change their mind about going. Kate choose Wednesday though, which should be an insignificant day.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Guest on 20.10.12 19:48

@sami wrote:Wednesday is also the day Kate wishes she could go back to, in her book. She says something about if she could go back to the day before and see who was watching them. I found that a strange point in time to pick. Most would say turn back the clock to when they got up that morning (Thur) or indeed, to the point where the holiday started and change their mind about going. Kate choose Wednesday though, which should be an insignificant day.

Thank you sami. I didn't know that, as you say strange, because if things were hunky dorey up until Madeleine disappeared and they were having such a great time, why pick Wednesday, as you say Thursday would be the day. Do you have an extract from the book for that at all please?

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Woofer on 20.10.12 19:59

@sami wrote:Wednesday is also the day Kate wishes she could go back to, in her book. She says something about if she could go back to the day before and see who was watching them. I found that a strange point in time to pick. Most would say turn back the clock to when they got up that morning (Thur) or indeed, to the point where the holiday started and change their mind about going. Kate choose Wednesday though, which should be an insignificant day.

It seems she was reinforcing their story about someone going into the apartment on the Wednesday.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by sami on 20.10.12 20:02

candyfloss wrote:
@sami wrote:Wednesday is also the day Kate wishes she could go back to, in her book. She says something about if she could go back to the day before and see who was watching them. I found that a strange point in time to pick. Most would say turn back the clock to when they got up that morning (Thur) or indeed, to the point where the holiday started and change their mind about going. Kate choose Wednesday though, which should be an insignificant day.

Thank you sami. I didn't know that, as you say strange, because if things were hunky dorey up until Madeleine disappeared and they were having such a great time, why pick Wednesday, as you say Thursday would be the day. Do you have an extract from the book for that at all please?


"I wish I could roll back time and go back to the day before Madeleine
was abducted. I would slow down time. I would get a really good look
around and have a really good think. And I'd think: Where are you? Who
are you? Who is secretly watching my family? Because someone was
watching my family very, very carefully. And taking notes."



As above, it is from her book. She does not talk about Wednesday because it holds a special memory from the holiday it is just plonked in there. Personally I would say I wish I had never gone on that holiday or if I could roll back time to when we got up that fateful morning, if we had not gone to the Tapas that night. Lots of "ifs" you could use, but not if I could roll back time to Wednesday !

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Guest on 20.10.12 20:04

Thank you sami, someone could have been watching all week, why Wednesday.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by sami on 20.10.12 20:08

@Woofer wrote: It seems she was reinforcing their story about someone going into the apartment on the Wednesday.


That is a fair point Woofer, yes. However, if the dry run on Wednesday night had occurred, then the note taking watcher man would have been doing it on Tuesday, in order to be ready for his Wednesday dry run. I just feel it odd, there is never regret about going to the Tapas, going on the holiday, leaving them crying or in the creche every day. She just wants to go back to Wednesday and have a look around. Nothing else is regretted.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Woofer on 20.10.12 20:29

"Rachael Oldfield:
After placing their orders, at around 9.15pm, Gerry McCann went to check, only his apartment. He was held up for nearly 10 minutes because, he said, he had been chatting with Jez about tennis. Today there was a tournament which they both had to compete in. During Gerry's absence, the waiters started to bring the food. Jane was also absent to check her apartment. Gerry returned shortly after Jane."

Surely Jane can`t have got back to the restaurant BEFORE Gerry? Wasn`t she on her way to check her kids when she saw him returning back from his check and chatting to Jez?

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by sami on 20.10.12 20:36

@Woofer wrote:"Rachael Oldfield:
After placing their orders, at around 9.15pm, Gerry McCann went to check, only his apartment. He was held up for nearly 10 minutes because, he said, he had been chatting with Jez about tennis. Today there was a tournament which they both had to compete in. During Gerry's absence, the waiters started to bring the food. Jane was also absent to check her apartment. Gerry returned shortly after Jane."

Surely Jane can`t have got back to the restaurant BEFORE Gerry? Wasn`t she on her way to check her kids when she saw him returning back from his check and chatting to Jez?


Or if Jane passed Gerry and Wilkins on the way to her check, she must have passed by them again on the way back, if she returned to the table before Gerry ?

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Woofer on 20.10.12 20:38

candyfloss wrote:Thank you sami, someone could have been watching all week, why Wednesday.

I`m sure they`re trying to build up a story for the Wednesday - trying to make out the crying was Wednesday when it was in fact Tuesday, trying to make out some stranger got into the apartment on the Wednesday - also wasn`t there something about seeing a stain on Maddie`s pyjama top one morning (can`t remember which morning that was). I think they`re just trying to get everyone to believe there was a stranger. But can`t see how this fits with the routine being changed on the Wednesday.

You`d think they would have been more security conscious if they thought a stranger had been hanging around on the Wednesday and locked the flat more securely, not do the opposite and leave the patio doors unlocked. Weird.

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Re: Wednesday 2nd May why did things change?

Post by Woofer on 20.10.12 20:40

@sami wrote:
@Woofer wrote:"Rachael Oldfield:
After placing their orders, at around 9.15pm, Gerry McCann went to check, only his apartment. He was held up for nearly 10 minutes because, he said, he had been chatting with Jez about tennis. Today there was a tournament which they both had to compete in. During Gerry's absence, the waiters started to bring the food. Jane was also absent to check her apartment. Gerry returned shortly after Jane."

Surely Jane can`t have got back to the restaurant BEFORE Gerry? Wasn`t she on her way to check her kids when she saw him returning back from his check and chatting to Jez?


Or if Jane passed Gerry and Wilkins on the way to her check, she must have passed by them again on the way back, if she returned to the table before Gerry ?

True.

Woofer

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