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Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by sweetex on 15.10.12 11:09

@Stephen Birch wrote:No matter what theory's there are out there, 4 American and 1 South African expert consulted, confirmed something is buried under the Murat driveway.Whichever way you look at it, the driveway must be dug up.

Regards

Stephen D. Birch

Mr Birch, the purpose of this section of the forum is to discuss different theories, and this is exactly what we are doing.

I agree with the idea that it was not the body that was transferred in the car, but probably clothes, bags and other bits and pieces close to Madeleine.

Should this be true, and she is buried in Murat's garden, MY question will be, did Murat know, or did he not.

Will any sane person allow another to bury his dead child in his garden? If he didn't know? Why does he not request police to start digging?


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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by Stephen Birch on 15.10.12 11:17

His attorney refused me access....

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by Stephen Birch on 15.10.12 11:18

Mr Murat has a steel plate in his head and one blind eye.

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by Guest on 15.10.12 11:32

@Stephen Birch wrote:Mr Murat has a steel plate in his head and one blind eye.

And.............?????

In other words, what relevance is this?

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by PeterMac on 15.10.12 11:38

The question is not whether it might have happened, or whether this theory fits with that theory, or whether the bag might have been moved, or anything else. . .
The question is a matter of hard primary evidential fact.
Is the body under the drive, or not ?

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by Guest on 15.10.12 12:04

I hope it's ok cath, I have put you post in here as well, as it is relevant to a theory..

@cath2756 wrote:
I mentioned before that lime or quicklime changes the rate of decomposition and have since found out it also masks odours!!! I am not sure if it would mask it enough to confuse the dogs, which would go a long way to giving credence to Stephen Birch's claims

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by cath2756 on 15.10.12 12:15

candyfloss wrote:I hope it's ok cath, I have put you post in here as well, as it is relevant to a theory..

@cath2756 wrote:
I mentioned before that lime or quicklime changes the rate of decomposition and have since found out it also masks odours!!! I am not sure if it would mask it enough to confuse the dogs, which would go a long way to giving credence to Stephen Birch's claims

Yes, that's fine candyfloss

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by bobbin on 15.10.12 12:15

@PeterMac wrote:The question is not whether it might have happened, or whether this theory fits with that theory, or whether the bag might have been moved, or anything else. . .
The question is a matter of hard primary evidential fact.
Is the body under the drive, or not ?

I would say, VERY UNLIKELY. The people/persons who might once, or not, have put a body in the hole will all certainly have had enough time now to dig the drive up, remove evidence and re-place the tarmac or whatever surface it was.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is all a non-starter.
The theory that it was placed there on the night of the third directly contradicts:
1. the police searches (they are not idiots who would miss some newly moved stones, vegetation, soil etc.) especially as they did not buy the 'abduction' story and suspected more or less straight away that it was some sort of foul play.
2. the dogs, who would, without a shred of doubt, have found cadaver odor if it had been present,
3. all logic.
With their resources, the MCs could have got the body far away.
Why would Murat agree to take the blame.
Why would Jane (under G. McC's fictionned time-line notice board, send the investigators straight towards Murat.
How could a hole be dug in Murat's mother's garden without her knowing and hearing. What about her own guard dogs.
How did the hole diggers (McC team or helpers) get into the garden, and where did they get the spades etc. from. Where did they put the spades afterwards, with traces of digging and their own scents on the tools.
How hard was the soil and stone to break into for a hole deep enough etc. without making some noise.
Why wait till dark to go back into the garden (past the guard dogs, Murat and or his mum) to bury a body when it could be easily carried all around PdL for a whole week in a big black sports bag without anyone turning a hair.

I am sorry but I find this all too silly. How did Mr. Birch get the idea that 'said garden works' had been carried out. How did he manage to break in with his machine and spend enough time to do his ground-breaking research without disturbing the guard dogs, or terrifying Mrs. Murat, had she discovered invaders in her garden.

This is all so loosely hung together, the promised information from Mr. Birch keeps not happening, and all the time the warning of a search has been given out, the perps will have cleared the area.

Even if the body were found, how would this help to identify who had done what to, or for, whom and why.

There are far more important lines of enquiry to follow and hopefully one day soon, one of the birds will sing.

The McCs are losing favour, big style, with the public.
Their associating themselves with the April Jones case, and riding once again off the back of someone else's tragedy (or is it a tragedy, especially after this now 'pinkified' event with its tarnishing fund, publicity drive, adverse public comment, which begins to make it all look less and less wholesome) is backfiring on them.
Soon it will not be beneficial to remain part of the 'pact of secrecy'.

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by Springers are FAB on 15.10.12 12:26

Hi
Tigger, you mentioned in a post:

" The evidence in the barn after the 10th June, the clothes found in a bag near the airport?"

I have never come across either of these things, I wonder if you could direct me towards where it is discussed/evidence etc. Thanks....learning new stuff every day here!


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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by winjoy on 15.10.12 12:32

I certainly wish that Mr Birch would give more information out as to why he arrived at the conclusions he did - which led to his trespass and use of equipment in the Murat garden.

And if the Murats have absolutely ruled out their permission to dig - it will take a complete change of heart on the part of the Portuguese police to change that.

Only a dig - nothing more or less - can conclusively resolve this issue.

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by Guest on 15.10.12 12:36

@Springers are FAB wrote:Hi
Tigger, you mentioned in a post:

" The evidence in the barn after the 10th June, the clothes found in a bag near the airport?"

I have never come across either of these things, I wonder if you could direct me towards where it is discussed/evidence etc. Thanks....learning new stuff every day here!




Some info here.....

Mccann's Expess News: "Now Hunt Centres on Disused Barn"

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mccanns-expess-news.html

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by Guest on 15.10.12 12:41

Here is article about the bag found nr airport, containing clothes, pencile case and shower curtain....

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/74343-clothes-offer-hope-madeleine-alive

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by Guest on 15.10.12 12:44

From the found bag article..

It is understood the contents, including a child's T-shirt, a pencil case, a shower curtain, adult jeans and a blue fleece, were handed to the Policia Judiciaria who passed it on to the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.

After 10 days of analysis, experts there are said to have found traces of hair and skin with a partial DNA match to Madeleine on the adult clothes. But the link is thought to be only partial - around three on a scale of one to eight.

Although they recognise that the link is at best partial, the McCanns were described as "encouraged" by the development which would suggest she could still be alive and also backs up their view that Madeleine was abducted



Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/74343-clothes-offer-hope-madeleine-alive#ixzz29MpSJ9si

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by aiyoyo on 15.10.12 12:58

@PeterMac wrote:The question is not whether it might have happened, or whether this theory fits with that theory, or whether the bag might have been moved, or anything else. . .
The question is a matter of hard primary evidential fact.
Is the body under the drive, or not ?

Nail on the head.
Precisely, is the body under the drive, or not?
All SB said was FIVE experts confirmed something is buried there, but what is that something?
Did those same experts confirm it could not be family pet dog?
Was the scan-radar able to signal confirmation it was a two-legged and not four-legged underneath?
I thinkI have answered my own question.





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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by Springers are FAB on 15.10.12 15:21

candyfloss wrote:From the found bag article..

It is understood the contents, including a child's T-shirt, a pencil case, a shower curtain, adult jeans and a blue fleece, were handed to the Policia Judiciaria who passed it on to the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.

After 10 days of analysis, experts there are said to have found traces of hair and skin with a partial DNA match to Madeleine on the adult clothes. But the link is thought to be only partial - around three on a scale of one to eight.

Although they recognise that the link is at best partial, the McCanns were described as "encouraged" by the development which would suggest she could still be alive and also backs up their view that Madeleine was abducted



Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/74343-clothes-offer-hope-madeleine-alive#ixzz29MpSJ9si


Thanks for the links Candyfloss...interesting reading!!

I'm not sure how the bag of clothes would lead anyone to think it suggests Madeleine was/is alive though??? Surely all it shows is that a bag was dumped in a layby that MIGHT have some connection to her. It doesn't have any implication one way or the other as to whether she was abducted or not...unless that bag had been deliberately put there, knowing it would be found, in order to 'somehow' reinforce the abduction story. How you work that one out I have no idea, unless i'm being particularly dense?? Very strange.

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by sami on 15.10.12 16:21

@Springers are FAB wrote:
candyfloss wrote:From the found bag article..

It is understood the contents, including a child's T-shirt, a pencil case, a shower curtain, adult jeans and a blue fleece, were handed to the Policia Judiciaria who passed it on to the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.

After 10 days of analysis, experts there are said to have found traces of hair and skin with a partial DNA match to Madeleine on the adult clothes. But the link is thought to be only partial - around three on a scale of one to eight.

Although they recognise that the link is at best partial, the McCanns were described as "encouraged" by the development which would suggest she could still be alive and also backs up their view that Madeleine was abducted



Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/74343-clothes-offer-hope-madeleine-alive#ixzz29MpSJ9si


Thanks for the links Candyfloss...interesting reading!!

I'm not sure how the bag of clothes would lead anyone to think it suggests Madeleine was/is alive though??? Surely all it shows is that a bag was dumped in a layby that MIGHT have some connection to her. It doesn't have any implication one way or the other as to whether she was abducted or not...unless that bag had been deliberately put there, knowing it would be found, in order to 'somehow' reinforce the abduction story. How you work that one out I have no idea, unless i'm being particularly dense?? Very strange.


Springersarefab, my opinion, for what it is worth, is that the McCanns believe what they want to believe when it suits them. This was called a "partial" dna match and they were "encouraged". They are happy to say partial matches are rubbish in other instances, like the boot for example.

So you are right, most normal people would die themselves at the thought of a cadaver dog indicating in the apartment, most normal people would not consider belongings dumped at the side of the road with a partial dna match as fantastic news but may actually fear the worst. Most normal people might in fact appeal on television for the person who dumped said bag to come forward so that it could be ruled out of the police investigation.

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by Nina on 15.10.12 16:30

Am I mistaken, but wasn't there talk in the very very early days about a missing or damaged shower curtain?

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by tigger on 15.10.12 17:24

@Nina wrote:Am I mistaken, but wasn't there talk in the very very early days about a missing or damaged shower curtain?

There was - iirc and it seemed to be connected to JT, but the PJ have kept a fair number of files back. When the news of the found clothes, pencil case etc. was released, (november or december 07 I think -it's in the timelines) it's interesting that shortly after that JT and ROB had let it be known that they wanted to change their statements. This all seems to centre around the Rothley meeting. Soon after that, JT and ROB suddenly had a baby monitor.
(Which imo they had all along but weren't allowed to mention). Imo deals were struck.
We've discussed the clothing found in the bag, jeans and a fleece top. Guess who was without either of these garments - JT. She may be owed big time imo.

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by aquila on 15.10.12 17:28

and in one of the RI's there was a big deal imo made of KM having to be loaned a fleece as it was cold.

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by tigger on 15.10.12 17:39

@aquila wrote:and in one of the RI's there was a big deal imo made of KM having to be loaned a fleece as it was cold.

I don't know about that, but JT went into some detail to explain she borrowed this large fleece from ROB and not having any jeans, as she didn't take jeans on holiday. Right.

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by aquila on 15.10.12 17:51

@tigger wrote:
@aquila wrote:and in one of the RI's there was a big deal imo made of KM having to be loaned a fleece as it was cold.

I don't know about that, but JT went into some detail to explain she borrowed this large fleece from ROB and not having any jeans, as she didn't take jeans on holiday. Right.

IIRC it was DW's RI about the fleece. I'll have to look it up (my heart sighs to go through those dreadful interviews again).

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by sonic72 on 15.10.12 17:56

Sounds like the bag was planted.

If this so called 'abductor' exisits, which imo they do not, then why after planning a well timed abduction would they then go leave a piece of potential evidence at the side of a road? If there is an 'abductor' they were so stealth at abducting that they did not even leave a trace of any abduction, and the bag dumping is not the behaviour of the same supposed stealth abductor.

IMO there was no abductor, and the bag was planted to reinforce the abduction theory.


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New Press release from Portugal

Post by Stephen Birch on 15.10.12 19:34

Ladies & Gentleman, within 2 days Portuguese Press and myself will release information about the Policia Judiaria, never before released in public.

I will post as soon as it is send to me in writing.

Regards

Stephen D. Birch

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by tigger on 15.10.12 19:49

@aquila wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@aquila wrote:and in one of the RI's there was a big deal imo made of KM having to be loaned a fleece as it was cold.

I don't know about that, but JT went into some detail to explain she borrowed this large fleece from ROB and not having any jeans, as she didn't take jeans on holiday. Right.

IIRC it was DW's RI about the fleece. I'll have to look it up (my heart sighs to go through those dreadful interviews again).

Here you are: (honestly easy with Google)
Rog interview JT:
4078 “But just do the best you can”.
Reply “Yeah. Erm, I’m just trying to, well I’ve walked out of the, walked out of the, erm, the Tap, you know, walked sort of into the reception of the Tapas Bar and obviously walked up the road. I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans, I know I didn’t take jeans on holiday, and then. Oh I’m sidetracking a bit, but that’s why I knew one of the pictures in the paper wasn’t from the holiday, because I hadn’t got jeans on the holiday with me, so. Erm, yeah, and I’d got cropped trousers on and just flip-flops, ...unquote

Methinks the lady does protest to much, they weren't asking about jeans - he didn't ask what she was wearing, but we got it in some detail.
The PJ aren't letting on, the jeans were said to be stained.
@ sonic I certainly don't think it was a cunning plan to convince the PJ and the world there was an abduction. The real problem is that there simply was no cunning plan at all. Too many players.

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Re: Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

Post by dragonfly on 15.10.12 20:26

@Woofer wrote:
@sami wrote:Aiyoyo, I tend to agree with the theory that it was not a body transported in the boot of the car. For this to happen some +/- 25 days later just feels wrong to me, even for this story. My opinion is that it is likely the blue bag and other bits that were transported for disposal. The bag became significant and important, the PJ were questioning its existance.

When I first read SB's story, my reaction was what a great idea. Bury the body in the one place that had been thoroughly searched and most unlikely ever to be searched again. A good reason for McCann's arrogance, and he has an air of arrogance about him when it comes to talking about finding Madeleine's body. But then I read his opinion on the timings and that discounted that theory. However my biggest doubt of all is the dogs, they did not alert. Why not ?

So either the timings are wrong or the dogs are wrong. I mean no disrepect to SB when I say I believe the dogs.

I could accept that there was a transfer of cadaver odour to the blue bag and other clothes belonging to KM and a child`s T-shirt but would this odour have been enough to necessitate the car boot being left open for days to air out? Also would cadaver odour transfer to an ignition key? I sometimes wish Martin G would come on here anonymously to explain.

I'm under the impression it was more than just a scent in car , but fluids hence the reason the police believe the body was frozen and defrosting started to happen on journey, I still believe imo that having keys to church didn't sit right with me, I can understand a priest being at access 24/7 but what seems like unlimited access to a church feels at odds( please correct me if I am wrong about church )

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