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90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

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90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by Swizzlestick on 14.10.12 13:52

I expect that this question has been asked before, but having tried a variety of sources on the net, I can't get to the bottom of it - does a corpse need to be dead 90 minutes or 2 hours before a cadaver dog can detect the scent of it?

I would also be interested to know what others make of the evidence of cadaver odour being detected in the flower bed of the apartment. I could not find any pictures of this, and little information.

Out of interest, does anybody know if a mental health professional has made any comment about a possible personality disorder regarding the McCanns?

Thank you.

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by statsman on 14.10.12 14:27

does a corpse need to be dead 90 minutes or 2 hours before a cadaver dog can detect the scent of it?

Well, since these dogs are trained on pig cadaverine rather than human cadaverine, I'm not sure anyone knows for a human corpse.

I'm pretty sure that external factors such as air temperature would have an effect on this as well.

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by tigger on 14.10.12 14:37

@Swizzlestick wrote:I expect that this question has been asked before, but having tried a variety of sources on the net, I can't get to the bottom of it - does a corpse need to be dead 90 minutes or 2 hours before a cadaver dog can detect the scent of it?

I would also be interested to know what others make of the evidence of cadaver odour being detected in the flower bed of the apartment. I could not find any pictures of this, and little information.

Out of interest, does anybody know if a mental health professional has made any comment about a possible personality disorder regarding the McCanns?

Thank you.

Have a look at Dr. Ludke, his assessment (very early on) seems to hit the spot exactly imo. Just put 'Dr. Ludke' in the search box.

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by Guest on 14.10.12 14:42

@statsman wrote:
does a corpse need to be dead 90 minutes or 2 hours before a cadaver dog can detect the scent of it?

Well, since these dogs are trained on pig cadaverine rather than human cadaverine, I'm not sure anyone knows for a human corpse.

I'm pretty sure that external factors such as air temperature would have an effect on this as well.

I think they were trained on human corpses, in USA, I believe it is in Goncalo's book, but not 100% sure on that, would have to check. I have read elsewhere the same. If someone could provide a link, as I don't have time right now.

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by statsman on 14.10.12 14:52

I stand corrected (at least partially). Here is what Martin Grime states:

"EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. But most of the time, however, the dog was trained using the odour of a human cadaver."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by sami on 14.10.12 15:01

@statsman wrote:
does a corpse need to be dead 90 minutes or 2 hours before a cadaver dog can detect the scent of it?

Well, since these dogs are trained on pig cadaverine rather than human cadaverine, I'm not sure anyone knows for a human corpse.

I'm pretty sure that external factors such as air temperature would have an effect on this as well.


The reason these dogs are trained on pig cadaverine is that pigs go through the same phases of decomposition as humans as well as the same number of stages. Each of these stages last as long in both pigs and humans before complete decomposition happens and only bones remain. It is not just the odour that is similar.

The Body Farm in Tennessee is where the FBI train their own human students in human decomposition, and as far as I am aware the dogs train there too.

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by Guest on 14.10.12 15:06

Chapter 16 from Goncalo book, which is on this forum, well worth reading, and chapter 16 all about the doggies ..............

The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.



http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t1703-chapter-16-the-hypothesis-of-death-is-considered-the-arrival-of-the-specialists

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by sami on 14.10.12 15:16

Thanks Candyfloss, that is a good link and should be read.

Sometimes it is easy to forget these dogs, their handlers and their trainers have a very special talent. They work very very hard and despite what some people believe, they undergo rigorous continual assessment and training.

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by PeterMac on 14.10.12 15:23

@sami wrote:Sometimes it is easy to forget these dogs, their handlers and their trainers have a very special talent. They work very very hard and despite what some people believe, they undergo rigorous continual assessment and training.
Or to put it more accurately,
"They work very very hard and despite what TWO people WOULD HAVE THE REST OF THE WORLD believe, they undergo rigorous continual assessment and training."

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by joyce1938 on 14.10.12 15:33

from what i recall from a time back and this discussion ,it seems some feel that from death the body compasition ,the odour changes gradually ,its how long a person may have been in a spot that seems to be a lot differentnshort time or a longer time ,but before the said death some dogs smell blood dried or otherwise,than it changes to a differently trained dog that will smell the different smell ,some doge seem can do both ? hope i dont mix people up saying this ,its just my recall of a lot of posts from persons that could add to the conversations on varous sites.joyce1938

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by Miraflores on 14.10.12 17:41

I know nothing about this topic, but I suspect that it could depend on the person, whether adult or child, state of health etc.

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by Nina on 14.10.12 17:55

At the very moment of death there are changes to the body. This is nature and the start of decay, the way nature rids the world of corpses. I just cannot accept the very definate 90 minute. 90 minutes for what, the smell of cadaverine, at 90 minutes wouldn't be picked up by a human unless very very hot, then is this the time frame that the unmistakenable odour for dogs and by dogs be available.


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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by joyce1938 on 14.10.12 22:52

I too dont think there is definate time for body to decay, i would think that could depend a lot on size and weather too,i think there has been difference of opinion on this subject ,and no one has come up with a definate time that fits all joyce1938

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Re: 90 Minutes Or 2 Hours?

Post by cath2756 on 15.10.12 11:59

@joyce1938 wrote:I too dont think there is definate time for body to decay, i would think that could depend a lot on size and weather too,i think there has been difference of opinion on this subject ,and no one has come up with a definate time that fits all joyce1938

I mentioned before that lime or quicklime changes the rate of decomposition and have since found out it also masks odours!!! I am not sure if it would mask it enough to confuse the dogs, which would go a long way to giving credence to Stephen Birch's claims

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