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FAITH

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Re: FAITH

Post by Julchen on 10.10.12 20:19

@aquila wrote:Dear Julchen,

I'm not an intellectual. I am an ordinary person who has faith in a higher power beyond mankind. I believe that mankind has a spiritual need. I happen to be a Christian. I have no wish to analyse or disprove the Bible. I have no wish to look at how certain books may have been chosen or not chosen to put in the Bible. Most people I know haven't read the Bible from front cover to back and yet they harp on about the missing books and the conspiracy to manipulate the masses. Those same people devour self-help books written by people who are paid to write things. Those same people spend so much time trying to disprove something they don't believe in order to prove it doesn't exist. Why bother I ask myself.

The same people who doubt with their intellectual challenge don't see that whoever you are, whether you are an astronaut who has landed on the moon, a scientist, a surgeon hoping for a miracle, a great brain or a person who has achieved none of those things, it is a leap of faith and it is a unifying spiritual need beyond the brain and the heart and the gut.

I'm sure the intellectuals will have a go at me.

I am probably one of the few to agree.

To me it's not even about a higher power or whatever you want to call it.
To me it's about grounding.

I noticed that somewhere in this thread someone wrote "a child's faith in its parents" which should read "a child's trust in its family". A lot of people mix up believe, faith and trust.
Hence my annotation, trusting in getting another load of abuse. And sure enough, there it was(not you).

Jule

Edit:
I have read to bible cover to cover. In all relevant languages which is quite interesting since it gives a very good understanding why certain differences in interpretation and even myths could develop

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Re: FAITH

Post by Woofer on 10.10.12 22:57

@Julchen wrote:Having re-read this thread I noticed that quite a few people get the words "faith" and "trust" , i.e. their meaning,muddled up.

Re-think your thoughts and postings regarding faith and trust

Cheers

Jule

Jule - I am not muddling `faith` and `trust` and don`t need to rethink my thoughts thank you.

Are you trying to get me to think the same way as you?

IMO faith is trust. It would be nice to hear how you view each and I promise I won`t tell you to rethink your thoughts on chritianity.

P.S. I am the one who wrote `a child`s trust/faith in its parents` and I did not mean `family` - I meant parents.

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Re: FAITH

Post by Ribisl on 10.10.12 23:03

@Julchen wrote:
@bobbin wrote:
@Julchen wrote:Having re-read this thread I noticed that quite a few people get the words "faith" and "trust" , i.e. their meaning,muddled up.

Re-think your thoughts and postings regarding faith and trust

Cheers

Jule

I trust you will go and read another thread Jule if you don't like the way this one is going. I have faith in humour.

Reading this sort of comment I lose trust and faith in Bobbin kind.

Jule
Julchen, there is no need to be so rude. 'Faith', in non religious context, can cover a much wider spectrum of our belief system which includes 'trust' and 'hope' without sufficient evidence. In other words, 'faith' and 'trust' are not mutually exclusive as you appear to suggest.

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Re: FAITH

Post by Woofer on 10.10.12 23:10

I remember, as a child, I wasn`t aware of religions and differences. Watch a mixed bag of kids, they don`t notice `differences`.

Shame its not like that as adults.

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Re: FAITH

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.10.12 23:13

Châtelaine wrote:
@littlepixie wrote:There cannot be Faith without evidence. It all depends on whether A) You know the truth of a situation and B) Whether you believe the evidence.
***
Allow me to disagree.
Faith is per definition WITHOUT evidence.
That's surely not correct, though, is it, Chatelaine?

It is possible to have faith either with or without evidence.

So, e.g.:

I have faith in the British judicial system (based on evidence)

I have faith in astrology (no evidence)

I have faith in the weather forecasts (based on evidence)

I have faith in my doctor (based on evidence)

I have faith in statins (based on evidence)

I have faith in the Yorkshire Building Society (based on evidence)

I have faith in reading the tea leaves (no evidence)

and so on...

I have faith in Ed Miliband (hmmm)

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Re: FAITH

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.10.12 23:27

@bobbin wrote:Look how similar the current Christian belief system is to former creeds.

Of course, the Christian faith was simply an outworking of and continuation of the previous Jewish faith, being the Saviour who was promised from the time of Abraham onwards. The Jews learned that man was fallen and needed salvation. Christ confirmed that understanding and was indeed the fulfilment of it (though the Jews of course disagree with Christ's claims for himself)

it could be argued that Jesus could be the fictitious form that must emerge at a given time, to fulfil the ancient predictions...there is no corroborating proof, other than supporting gospels etc. which could also be fictions, to prove either that Jesus lived...

There is absolutely overwhelming evidence, accepted by virtually all secular historians as well as Christian historians, that Christ lived on this earth during the period stated in the gospels. All the historical references that can be verified in the gospels have been confirmed 100%

It is the pretense of using religion as a 'cloak of good', as a 'concealment for evil', that sickens me. That is as much an abuse of innocence as it is of the innocent.

Here I agree with you. The committed Christian, though, considers himself a sinner, and should never display ANY self-righteousness. In the New Testament, the religious leaders of the day, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes and the lawyers etc. considered themselves 'good' - but Christ dared to call them 'whited sepulchres' and 'vipers'. They found his comments deeply offensive...and plotted to kill him for saying so. He also said: "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick (Matthew 9 v 12).

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Re: FAITH

Post by Ribisl on 10.10.12 23:32

@Woofer wrote:I remember, as a child, I wasn`t aware of religions and differences. Watch a mixed bag of kids, they don`t notice `differences`.

Shame its not like that as adults.
Absolutely true. Sad to watch how some children who are brought up under their own parents' ignorant or ill-judged prejudices from a very early age can end up adopting such negative, bigoted outlook as their own in later life.

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Re: FAITH

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.10.12 23:40

@Da Troof wrote:Or to put it more accurately:

1. Faith in the reported life and teachings of a person, namely Jesus Christ,

2. Faith in a book, the Bible, or The Scriptures - which is a sub-set of the available collection of historical writings and copies of historical writings selected by a committee around 1650 years ago

Well, that's not quite right. The content of the Old Testament was agreed by Hebrew scholars in around 400 BC and, a couple of hundred years later, when Greek had become the 'lingua franca' of most of the known world (much as English has become in our day), 70 Jewish scholars translated these Hebrew Scriptures into what became known as the 'Septuagint'. It was from the Septuagint that Christ quoted on so many occasions, each time confirming that these Scriptures were the very word of God. So, for example, referring to the Old Testament (Matthew 5 vv 17-18), he said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am come not to destruy, but to fulfil. Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled".

You are quite right about the 'committee' which finally settled what is called the 'canon' of the Old Testament; except that it could also be said that these men who formed this Committee were God-fearing, Christ-believing people who, under God, considered that these were the books God could most use to explain Christ's life and mission.

in order to provide support

evidence

for their faith in the reported life of Jesus Christ.

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Re: FAITH

Post by Woofer on 10.10.12 23:48

Tony - though not a christian myself - imo your words are thought provoking and respectful .... as always.

I have absolutely no problems with what other people believe, in fact I find it interesting. Things only get polarised when one individual tries to convert another to his or her way of thinking by telling them they are wrong and he or she is right.

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Re: FAITH

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.10.12 23:52

@Woofer wrote:..very selective - even leaving out the fact that Jesus had a wife.

I think there is one document, quite probably a forgery, which suggest that Christ had a wife. Against that is all the other evidence that he did not.

Much can be blamed on misogynist Paul...

These verses from Paul, written by him whilst in prison in Rome (Romans 16 vv 1-6), hardly sound like those of a misogynist: "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea...that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers...who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom I not only give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles...Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour upon us..."

Who they made into a saint.

Well, the Roman Catholic Church made him a 'saint'. They have also made saints of all sorts of people, even encouraging people to pray to dead saints. Paul wrote that lovely chapter on love, 1 Corinithians 13, which is still very often read out in churches these days

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Re: FAITH

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.10.12 23:53

@Woofer wrote:Tony - though not a christian myself - imo your words are thought provoking and respectful .... as always.

I have absolutely no problems with what other people believe, in fact I find it interesting. Things only get polarised when one individual tries to convert another to his or her way of thinking by telling them they are wrong and he or she is right.
Thank you very much Woofer for your kind words. I seek here only to explain, clarify and correct, I hope it is always in a humble and not arrogant spirit

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Re: FAITH

Post by Tony Bennett on 11.10.12 0:01

@aiyoyo wrote:[Betrand Russell in his Book 'Why I am not a Christian' said that if everything must have a first cause, then God must have a first cause.

Well, he did say 'if'

Blind faith in Gods, or God by any name - I struggle with that.

So do I. I do not argue at all for a 'blind' faith. On the contrary, I argue that faith should be based on evidence. If it is not based on good evidence, it may well be misplaced

If there is God (not that I believe it) then there must be the ONE and ONLY surely

That's logical...that makes sense

Anyway, out of curiosity, where is...heaven - it can't be a physical location, so where is it? If there is heaven for every form of belief, then logically it follows there must be Muslim Heaven, Christian Heaven, Buddhist heaven, so on and so forth?...The mind truly boggles.

Christ said heaven WAS a physical place: see John 14 vv 1-6.










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Re: FAITH

Post by Woofer on 11.10.12 0:24

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:[Betrand Russell in his Book 'Why I am not a Christian' said that if everything must have a first cause, then God must have a first cause.

Well, he did say 'if'

Blind faith in Gods, or God by any name - I struggle with that.

So do I. I do not argue at all for a 'blind' faith. On the contrary, I argue that faith should be based on evidence. If it is not based on good evidence, it may well be misplaced

If there is God (not that I believe it) then there must be the ONE and ONLY surely

That's logical...that makes sense

Anyway, out of curiosity, where is...heaven - it can't be a physical location, so where is it? If there is heaven for every form of belief, then logically it follows there must be Muslim Heaven, Christian Heaven, Buddhist heaven, so on and so forth?...The mind truly boggles.

Christ said heaven WAS a physical place: see John 14 vv 1-6.










Tony - in my bible it only refers to a place, not a physical place.

Anyways - this physical world, at times, can be likened to a heaven.

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Re: FAITH

Post by PeterMac on 11.10.12 9:25

@Woofer wrote:
Tony - in my bible it only refers to a place, not a physical place.
Anyways - this physical world, at times, can be likened to a heaven.

Faustus. How comes it then that thou art out of hell?
Mephistopheles. Why this is hell, nor am I out of it.
Think’st thou that I who saw the face of God,
And tasted the eternal joys of Heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells,
In being depriv’d of everlasting bliss?

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Re: FAITH

Post by Woofer on 11.10.12 10:58

@PeterMac wrote:
@Woofer wrote:
Tony - in my bible it only refers to a place, not a physical place.
Anyways - this physical world, at times, can be likened to a heaven.

Faustus. How comes it then that thou art out of hell?
Mephistopheles. Why this is hell, nor am I out of it.
Think’st thou that I who saw the face of God,
And tasted the eternal joys of Heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells,
In being depriv’d of everlasting bliss?

Yep .... and, at times, a hell.

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Re: FAITH

Post by aquila on 16.10.12 17:00

People have faith that the law and justice go hand in hand. People have faith in the establishments set up in their own countries to be for the greater good and to represent the backbone of a decent society. People have faith in those who are selected/elected to run those establishments with honesty. People have faith in charities which are set up to provide aid to the most vulnerable people/animals/causes. People have faith that their donations go largely to the those in need. People have faith that there is some greater good.

Sadly, the law and justice don't necessarily go hand in hand. The establishments set up are corrupt. There is little backbone to support society for the greater good. Too many people selected/elected are only out to line their own pockets. Honesty is 95 shades of whichever colour you choose as and when it suits. Charities are all too often run by self-seeking individuals with little or no thought for the exact benefit to those causes and the impact it has on lives.

Just my opinion.

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Re: FAITH

Post by Woofer on 19.10.12 14:03

@aquila wrote:People have faith that the law and justice go hand in hand. People have faith in the establishments set up in their own countries to be for the greater good and to represent the backbone of a decent society. People have faith in those who are selected/elected to run those establishments with honesty. People have faith in charities which are set up to provide aid to the most vulnerable people/animals/causes. People have faith that their donations go largely to the those in need. People have faith that there is some greater good.

Sadly, the law and justice don't necessarily go hand in hand. The establishments set up are corrupt. There is little backbone to support society for the greater good. Too many people selected/elected are only out to line their own pockets. Honesty is 95 shades of whichever colour you choose as and when it suits. Charities are all too often run by self-seeking individuals with little or no thought for the exact benefit to those causes and the impact it has on lives.

Just my opinion.

Totally agree with the last paragraph, but IMO the first paragraph is more aligned with `hope` not `faith`. One would hope these supposed responsible establishments function morally, but as you say, they very often do not, so it would put paid to any faith one had in them.

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Re: FAITH

Post by littlepixie on 27.10.12 11:08

Found this while doing my Bible Study

Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.

Hebrews 11 : 1

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/58/11

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Re: FAITH

Post by Woofer on 27.10.12 12:29

@littlepixie wrote:Found this while doing my Bible Study

Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.

Hebrews 11 : 1

[url=http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/58/11
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/58/11[/quote[/url]]

IMO that particular Hebrew has got it right, indicating that faith is an expectation that is hoped for and not beheld in reality.

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Re: FAITH

Post by aquila on 27.10.12 14:35

Faith and Religion

I am a Christian, I am not a regular church-goer. At times of strife I open the Bible (at random mostly) and find comfort in ancient words that are still relevant today and to me. I can't think of any other book I've read (the self-help stuff) that actually speaks to my conscience, my soul and my spirit. Within my Christian upbringing, myself, my sister and brother are Methodist by baptism. My Mother was a Scottish Presbyterian and my Father a Welsh Baptist so very much protestant on the whole. The Scottish side of the family also include the Catholic faith. No-one in my family ever cared what denomination or religion anyone was. The humour and banter was great fun but it didn't diminish or belittle anyone's faith. I can remember my sister asking my father one evening what religion she was as she had to go to school the next day and say it (1960's). My Dad said..'church of Turkeys'. My sister came home in tears as she'd been told off by the teacher. My Dad said 'it doesn't matter which church you belong to. It only matters you believe in God'. He didn't march down to the school or write a letter to the headteacher as would happen nowadays; he taught my sister and all of us a good lesson.

I have friends from all faiths. I have friends who are agnostic and friends who are atheist.

The friends and family who have faith (whatever faith they have) are the more fullfilled for it.

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