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KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by jd on 30.09.12 14:39

@Ribisl wrote:Sorry, Sami/jd, I threw in that comment about tennis for tigger's benefit. It was ME that needed quite a bit of de-stressing!

Golf/Tennis is an important factor in the truth of the lie of the mccann scam

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Ribisl on 30.09.12 14:43

@jd wrote:
@Ribisl wrote:Sorry, Sami/jd, I threw in that comment about tennis for tigger's benefit. It was ME that needed quite a bit of de-stressing!

Golf/Tennis is an important factor in the truth of the lie of the mccann scam
Yup. But do we know where Gerry went on his earlier golfing holiday(s) in Algarve?

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by sami on 30.09.12 14:45

@Da Troof wrote:Yes the one complex part of the faked abduction scenario is the involvement or otherwise of the other members of the Tapas 9.

I think there are two possible explanations that are relatively simple.

1. The McC's told their friends about MMcC's "accident" and they all agreed that it would be best to cover it up. This necessarily means the accident took place some time before the evening of May3rd, but could have been that afternoon or early evening. It would also explain the pact between them.

2. Most or all of the Tapas friends were completely unaware of the true story and simply reacted to the story fed them by the McC's at around 22.00 on May 3rd. From what I can gather most/all of them seemed to react in the way one would expect. i.e. raising the alarm, joining the search, etc. The "pact" between them could have been agreed later and have nothing to do with a cover-up, more just an agreement not to say anything else unless they were legally required to do so.

Of course it is entirely possible that something more complicated happened, but I tend to think the most simple explanation is the most likely.

There is one other hypothesis that I have considered: G McC is the only person who really knows what happened to MMcC. He removed her, dead or alive, during his earlier check then simply left Kate to find MMcC missing at 22.00ish. It doesn't quite fit with all the reported statements and evidence, in particular K McC running into the Tapas Bar saying "they've taken her", but I'm not really sure how accurate that reported statement is. Also K McC's fingerprints on the window suggest she was the one who set the abduction scene, but perhaps G told her to open or close the window when he was checking the shutters.
I am drawn to this hypothesis because it means that G McC doesn't have to rely on others keeping quiet. He could be the only one who really knows what happened.



I do not think the Tapas re-acted on the night in the manner in which a normal person would. All I can do is put myself in their place (not suggesting I am entirely normal !) but my first and only reaction at that table, at that time, would be to run to my own apartment to check my own children. The grandmother was told stay at the table, that I believe. As far as I can make out everyone else went to 5a. There is little or no big deal made by the Tapas about how they went back and found their own children safe etc. Why ? Their children seem to have been an after thought.

The statements of the Tapas are all over the place, with little or no recollection of what they did and when they did it. Is that usual for people in the middle of what surely have been one of the most terrible things they were ever involved with ? In a time of tradegdy people re-play the relevant day, week, month, time and time again in their head. Wondering what if, what could they have done differently. Yet, they cannot agree on, or remember with certainty, most of what happened that week. why ?

The obvious benefit from a faked abduction is a financial one. Were the McCanns hoping to stay put in Portugal, avoiding the UK for a particular reason. CATS files spring to mind. Now it is far fetched to say the Tapas were aware of the planned fake abduction from the beginning, but given the circumstances and the far fetched story the McCanns want us to believe, it could be credible, in my opinion. Perhaps not all, but one from each couple ? Was there the promise of financial reward for their assistance ? Bizzare and all as it sounds, I find it more believable than six or seven adults being happy to cover up the accidental death of a child. I cannot get my head around that. I believe for the most part people are good, so the odds of having six other adults agreeable immediately is hard to digest. However, if they were party to an agreement to gain financially from whatever scam the McCanns had going from the outset, they may have felt they had little choice but to stay quiet.

As it stands, the Tapas being afraid of prosecution over leaving their children alone is no reason for them to cover up an accident. The cover up ensured they had to publicallly admit to leaving the children alone, so that does not make sense.

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Ribisl on 30.09.12 15:02

@jd wrote:

The other thing I find very odd is Gerry McCann playing tennis when golf is his thing, surely going to the Algarve and not playing golf is bizarre? Even a 'pilgrimage' to Vilamoura isn't something that any keen golfer would do? The numerous Algarve Golf Clubs, as far as I know, are prepared to rent golf clubs for very reasonable prices as it’s of their own interest to attract all possible golfers that, as on holiday, have much else to pack besides this. This “lack” of golfing makes me think there was surely a reason they HAD to stay on site at the OC. I haven't seen anyone else mention the golf thing apart from GM being a golfer.


@jd I don't find this strange at all and I play both golf and tennis. You don't necessarily play golf when you are on a family holiday, especially with young children because it takes up a lot of time. On the other hand you can play tennis an hour here an hour there when you've got courts nearby, and it has the added advantage of your wife being able to join in. Maybe hence Gerry's famous utterance, 'I am not here to enjoy myself'?

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Da Troof on 30.09.12 15:46

Ribisl

I don't think I'm forming opinions without anything to back them up. I just think that the true explanation for what happened to MMcC is likely to be a fairly simple one. The ones I have given fit with most of the evidence and avoid the need for complex conspiracies or the creation of more McC children.

Sami
I'm not sure that the statements actually say that the tapas group all went directly to 5A, only that they all left the table. I suspect the situation at that time was rather confused, with people coming and going. I'll re read the statements

I agree it is difficult to understand the rest of the tapas group agreeing to a cover-up unless they also had something to hide. So either they had something to hide, or they were not involved in the cover-up.

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by jd on 30.09.12 16:21

@Ribisl wrote:
@jd wrote:

The other thing I find very odd is Gerry McCann playing tennis when golf is his thing, surely going to the Algarve and not playing golf is bizarre? Even a 'pilgrimage' to Vilamoura isn't something that any keen golfer would do? The numerous Algarve Golf Clubs, as far as I know, are prepared to rent golf clubs for very reasonable prices as it’s of their own interest to attract all possible golfers that, as on holiday, have much else to pack besides this. This “lack” of golfing makes me think there was surely a reason they HAD to stay on site at the OC. I haven't seen anyone else mention the golf thing apart from GM being a golfer.


@jd I don't find this strange at all and I play both golf and tennis. You don't necessarily play golf when you are on a family holiday, especially with young children because it takes up a lot of time. On the other hand you can play tennis an hour here an hour there when you've got courts nearby, and it has the added advantage of your wife being able to join in. Maybe hence Gerry's famous utterance, 'I am not here to enjoy myself'?

There were plenty of superb golf courses near by too, and what the area is famous for. No, they played tennis every day (the only week in their lives it seems) because they needed to be 'seen' at Ocean Club after April 30th

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by jd on 30.09.12 16:25

The grandmother was told stay at the table, that I believe

Dianne Webster was told to stay at the table on her own for 5 minutes after kate mccann started the scam. After 5 minutes Dianne Webster then went to apartment 5A, tried to pull the shutters up outside Maddies room but could not as they were too heavy (they were down)...Then she was told to go to the paynes apartment and wait there for the rest of the night

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Nina on 30.09.12 16:49

@jd wrote:
@Ribisl wrote:
@jd wrote:

The other thing I find very odd is Gerry McCann playing tennis when golf is his thing, surely going to the Algarve and not playing golf is bizarre? Even a 'pilgrimage' to Vilamoura isn't something that any keen golfer would do? The numerous Algarve Golf Clubs, as far as I know, are prepared to rent golf clubs for very reasonable prices as it’s of their own interest to attract all possible golfers that, as on holiday, have much else to pack besides this. This “lack” of golfing makes me think there was surely a reason they HAD to stay on site at the OC. I haven't seen anyone else mention the golf thing apart from GM being a golfer.


@jd I don't find this strange at all and I play both golf and tennis. You don't necessarily play golf when you are on a family holiday, especially with young children because it takes up a lot of time. On the other hand you can play tennis an hour here an hour there when you've got courts nearby, and it has the added advantage of your wife being able to join in. Maybe hence Gerry's famous utterance, 'I am not here to enjoy myself'?

There were plenty of superb golf courses near by too, and what the area is famous for. No, they played tennis every day (the only week in their lives it seems) because they needed to be 'seen' at Ocean Club after April 30th

Kate might have given the warning that if she saw Gerry with a golf club in his hand he would be wearing it with a whoosh click.

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by jd on 30.09.12 16:54

I think gerry mccann was more interested in the 19th hole! drinking lots of Symingtons white wine!

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by sami on 30.09.12 17:29

In the interest of clarity, the extracts below are from the 04 May statements. All say they ran immediately to 5a (apart from granny who was told not to move in case Madeleine came to the Tapas Bar) and Tanner who says she was not at the table, although Oldfield says everyone was present.




David Payne : Towards 10pm, Kate went to her apartment, and less than 5
minutes later, she came back to the restaurant, breaking
down, reporting that Madeleine had disappeared. Then
everybody went to the apartment occupied by Madeleine's
family.
He remembers comments concerning the fact that the
window and the shutters were open, while they had remained
closed throughout the week.


Fiona Payne :Immediately, they organised search groups, either in the
apartment thinking that she could be hidden, or outside, which
resulted in nothing, even with the help of the employees. Due to Kate's highly anxious state, she decided to stay with
her, giving her all support she needed.


Jane Tanner :When she was in the apartment, at about 22.00- 22.15 she heard
Kate and Fiona shouting and saying that Madeleine had
disappeared.When asked, she says that she thinks it was Kate who discovered
the girl to be missing, the witness is not sure due not being in
the restaurant at that time.


M Oldfield : At around 10pm, Kate, Madeleine's mother, went to her
apartment to check on her children. She came back totally
shocked, shouting, saying that Madeleine was no longer in
her bedroom. At that time all the adults were in the
restaurant
. Then, the whole group went to Madeleine's
bedroom
and checked that the twins were sleeping OK. That
there was no sign of a burglary in the apartment


R Oldfield : We all got up then and
went with her to see
. They were all outside some having gone
to the apartment to check if in fact Madeleine had
disappeared, it having been confirmed. The twins carried on sleeping. They didn't move.
[/size]

Russell O'Brien : At a round 10pm, Kate Healy went out to check her children in
her apartment. When she came back, she came towards our table,
shouting that Madeleine had disappeared. They all went out,
running, and he with a few more people decided to look around
the apartment blocks,
and in their own apartments, to see if
they could find Madeleine.


Anyway, call me selfish, my first port of call would be my own apartment and my own children. At the very least I would split the workload with my husband - i.e. one of us offer support and help to our friends and the other check and stay with our own children. There was after all an abductor on the loose. Why would anybody not run immediately to check their own children ?

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by jd on 30.09.12 17:34

Anyway, call me selfish, my first port of call would be my own apartment and my own children

This would be anybodies first port of call in reality

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Guest on 30.09.12 18:09

@jd wrote:
Anyway, call me selfish, my first port of call would be my own apartment and my own children

This would be anybodies first port of call in reality

Good point, I would defently have splitted me and my man.. I would probably commanded him to run check on our children as I run with my friend to their appartment to help look out. Not for one second, after hearing something like that, would I want my children to be left alone anymore..

I also just realized how small Fiona ( I think) kid where...I would never left my kids alone like that, but even more horrified would I be leaving a small kid like this : ( and was that the kid that had the diarea?)


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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Nina on 30.09.12 18:12

Moa wrote:
@jd wrote:
Anyway, call me selfish, my first port of call would be my own apartment and my own children

This would be anybodies first port of call in reality

Good point, I would defently have splitted me and my man.. I would probably commanded him to run check on our children as I run with my friend to their appartment to help look out. Not for one second, after hearing something like that, would I want my children to be left alone anymore..

I also just realized how small Fiona ( I think) kid where...I would never left my kids alone like that, but even more horrified would I be leaving a small kid like this : ( and was that the kid that had the diarea?)


Yes Moa it is.

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Ribisl on 30.09.12 19:03

@jd wrote:
@Ribisl wrote:
@jd wrote:

The other thing I find very odd is Gerry McCann playing tennis when golf is his thing, surely going to the Algarve and not playing golf is bizarre? Even a 'pilgrimage' to Vilamoura isn't something that any keen golfer would do? The numerous Algarve Golf Clubs, as far as I know, are prepared to rent golf clubs for very reasonable prices as it’s of their own interest to attract all possible golfers that, as on holiday, have much else to pack besides this. This “lack” of golfing makes me think there was surely a reason they HAD to stay on site at the OC. I haven't seen anyone else mention the golf thing apart from GM being a golfer.


@jd I don't find this strange at all and I play both golf and tennis. You don't necessarily play golf when you are on a family holiday, especially with young children because it takes up a lot of time. On the other hand you can play tennis an hour here an hour there when you've got courts nearby, and it has the added advantage of your wife being able to join in. Maybe hence Gerry's famous utterance, 'I am not here to enjoy myself'?

There were plenty of superb golf courses near by too, and what the area is famous for. No, they played tennis every day (the only week in their lives it seems) because they needed to be 'seen' at Ocean Club after April 30th

@jd I don't follow your logic here. To play golf you need a whole morning. It's not something you do on a family holiday unless the wife also plays or you arrange to play one day with the group of friends you are with. They played tennis everyday because they are sporty and competitive, and they enjoyed playing tennis together as well as with their group of friends. At home nobody has enough free time to be able to play everyday.

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by tigger on 01.10.12 6:19

Far more significant imo, in the months following 3/5, there is not a mention of golf either, or indeed golf courses. Four golf courses and Gerry doesn't even mention them?
Misdirection again, running! (not golf) see us run!
Golfing trips to Portugal are also never mentioned by Gerry but slip into the book as did some other apparently insignificant bits of information.

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Guest on 01.10.12 8:58

Moa and Nina: it was the Oldfield baby (somewhere around 15 months old?) who was supposedly ill with diarrhoea. One of the O'Brien / Tanner children (the elder I think) was vomiting - yet both sets of parents want us to believe that they were left unsupervised!

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Guest on 01.10.12 11:04

It beggers belief indeed.
And why did Kate leave the twins in an unlocked apartment? Why didn't she yell to the "back of the garden"?
Why didn't she check with Jane, if Madeleine had wandered and she was there? Why didn't she ask Jane if she had seen or heard anything, whilst the others came running down to see what was going on?

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Pershing36 on 02.10.12 9:53

KISS (Keeping it stupid simple)

1. It was just a chance abduction by unknown person/persons.

2. It was a tragic accident. Why did they all cover for each other? Maybe the use of sedation was more common place with this group than anyone realized. Lets say the accident happened after the children had been sedated to avoid any more incidents of them crying and getting complaints. They could use this as leverage to make the other doctors conform to a story and hide the body to avoid autopsy and toxicology. Lets face it if they had owned up lots of questions would have been asked in the UK and they would almost certainly been struck off for miss-use of medications. They could have easily have turned round to the others and told them if they take the fall they will make sure they do as well. Plus they were all pretty drunk according to the Tapas waiters account of the amount of wine being drunk. This would cloud anyone's decision making under pressure.

That's what I always had a suspicion about anyway.

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by PeterMac on 02.10.12 10:27

There really was an awful lot of sickness in this group.
Vomiting - child
Diarrhoea - child
Stomach bug - adult
Achilles tendon - adult


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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by sami on 02.10.12 10:34

@PeterMac wrote:There really was an awful lot of sickness in this group.
Vomiting - child
Diarrhoea - child
Stomach bug - adult
Achilles tendon - adult


And Tanners child with the foot which kept her out of the childcare facility at the beginning of the holiday.

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by PeterMac on 02.10.12 10:39

Which they described as Toxic Shock !

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Guest on 02.10.12 10:49

The direct family of a doctor lives in constant danger. I remember my ex-father-in-law-to-be [yes, I didn't marry his son after all ...] kept his new live-in girlfriend on morphine for 5 days whilst he was arranging for a medical insurance so that she could have her appendicitis surgery yes

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Guest on 02.10.12 23:08

@Da Troof wrote:Hello All, I'm a new member here, but have been looking at this forum for a while and have been skeptical about the McC's abduction hypothesis ever since 4th May 2007. I am a research scientist (molecular biologist) by profession so I tend to approach everything from an evidence based perspective.

I find much of the debate and discussion on this forum very interesting and informative, but I think some of the suggestions I have seen recently are starting to get a little far fetched. My own view is that the available evidence should be the foundation of any discussion about the fate of poor little MMcC.

I have always considered the abduction by stranger hypothesis to be rather absurd for several reasons. However I think it is even more absurd to suggest that MMcC was never in PdL, that the "last photo" was photoshopped, that some of the photographs are not of MMcC, that the McC's had another child etc etc.

My interpretation of the available evidence that I have read (I admit I haven't read K McC's book and still haven't managed to read every word of the official PJ files) is that there are still four possible explanations for MMcC's disappearance.

1. MMcC was abducted by stranger(s).
2. MMcC died accidentally in PdL Portugal, and her parents covered up her death and disposed of the body.
3. MMcC was deliberately killed in PdL Portugal and her parents covered up her death and disposed of the body.
4. MMcC was given/sold to a third party in PdL Portugal and her parents created an abduction hoax to cover up this fact.

It is quite alarming to realise that of these four explanations the least likely (when considering the available evidence) is the first! However even this explanation is more likely than some of the suggestions I have read on here and other forums (fora?) recently.

For what it is worth I find it incredibly frustrating that all four of the possible explanations given above are still possible after all this time and money.




Hello new fellow Sleuth!

Option five. Or rather: one. Maddie never reached Praia da Luz.
Option Two: she did but was offed on tuesday, (is that correct, the complete day omitted/evaded/left out in The Gospel according to KH (i.e. the truthful Book Madeleine)

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by Monty Heck on 03.10.12 19:53















Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)


Pershing36 Yesterday at 9:53 am




KISS (Keeping it stupid simple)

1. It was just a chance abduction by unknown person/persons.

2. It was a tragic accident. Why did they all cover for each other? Maybe the use of sedation was more common place with this group than anyone realized. Lets say the accident happened after the children had been sedated to avoid any more incidents of them crying and getting complaints. They could use this as leverage to make the other doctors conform to a story and hide the body to avoid autopsy and toxicology. Lets face it if they had owned up lots of questions would have been asked in the UK and they would almost certainly been struck off for miss-use of medications. They could have easily have turned round to the others and told them if they take the fall they will make sure they do as well


In my opinion, scenario 2 is the most likely explanation of what happened because people on holiday with expert knowledge of sedation and synchronised bedtime every night for lots of babies has to be a huge red flag. There is nothing in any of the witness statments I've read that indicates any of the couples had a problem meeting up night after night. That all those young children were asleep bang on cue, allowing parents to tiptoe off for the evening has to be something way beyond mere good fortune. That the McC twins didn't stir through all the screaming hysteria, not to mention the cold in the bedroom with the open shutters, etc is also well out of the ordinary. Yet after sleeping like angels for the entire week of the holiday there are anecdotes in the diary and blog that, after the disappearance, there were problems getting the twins settled for the night, and witness statments to the effect that MMcC had sleep issues prior to the holiday.

It would certainly go a long way to explaining any pact which would be cast iron if all were involved. If there had been an accident whether caused by sedation or not, not only would those involved have been struck off the medical register, it would have been major scandal for the UK and I suspect that it was (intially at least) the reasoning behind the abassadorial and political interventions and press manipulation.

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Re: KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

Post by PeterMac on 03.10.12 23:05

@jd wrote:
The grandmother was told stay at the table, that I believe

Dianne Webster was told to stay at the table on her own for 5 minutes after kate mccann started the scam. After 5 minutes Dianne Webster then went to apartment 5A, tried to pull the shutters up outside Maddies room but could not as they were too heavy (they were down)...Then she was told to go to the paynes apartment and wait there for the rest of the night
But they were NOT heavy.
I pushed them up easily as is shown on the video on Pat Brown's blog.
They are cheap nasty plastic slats, which rattle in their inadequate cheap and nasty housings and can be rammed up about two thirds of their length into the roller housing above the window. But when you let go, they rattle and crash and squeak down again. There is no way of holding them up from the outside without
• a stick, or
• an accomplice.
JT , Please note. There must have been a second person. Can your psychological intervention now provide the details ?
Tall, dark, handsome, smelling of Paco Rabane, murmuring softly in Latin (or perhaps they were Greek heroic couplets, one cannot tell at 15 feet distance), which matched perfectly his manly torso, visible through the finely crafted pure silk shirt, over the perfectly tailored trousers of the finest linen. His teeth clearly by the finest odontologists, his hands perfectly manicured, and his breath had that beautiful overtone of rose water and cardamom. His gait was upright and true, his shoes polished to a standard a drill sergeant would have praised.
This was the one for Madeleine.
This was her Prince. The one who was worthy of spiriting her away to far away Barcelona in less than three days, in his yacht. A super-powered yacht, not yet seen in the Atlantic or the Med. Capable of speed and luxury beyond imagination, (except for the imagination of Edgar and Mitchell , of course - But I digress !)

Will one of them one day have the guts to stop all this ?
puke

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