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Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by tigger on 17.09.12 17:45

Perhaps someone really familiar with football crowds can outline what should have happened instead of arguing about what did.
Should some bright spark have sent extra police? Would somebody have told the police there were no stewards? Which I suppose they could have expected to be there.

I'm particularly struck with the absence of blame on the owners, the insurance company and the football association who imposed such large fines for pit invasion.
The police made a mistake, the wrong decision entirely - very much like the captain of the Titanic.
I honestly don't think many more people could have been saved, there's only a small 'window of opportunity' and saving 41 people with the very little help which was able to get there, the injuries must have been horrific, lungs don't tend to keep going once punctured and so on.
I think it's adding to the pain of the survivors by suggesting they could have been saved, yes a few, but all 41? Who would be trained in this outright theatre of war?
Think of 7/7 - how many could have been saved, how many were not.

The blame lies where the money is imo. The fans were treated with contempt - cash cows for the club owners. It just happened to be Hillsborough, any other ground where the fences were up was in just as much danger of hosting this disaster.
Just to make sure, I'd still like to make sure that the insurance companies did their job and inspected the premises they were to insure. Did they pay out?

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by cristobel on 17.09.12 18:00

Dear Russiandoll.
Please reconsider your decision to quit this forum,.
I can fully understand how you feel about the insensitive and judgemental things that have been said about Hillsborough - it's nothing new after 23 years - and some people find it hard to let go of a prejudice, even when presented with facts.
Please stay, or at least, don't make a hasty decision when you are upset.
With very best regards
Cristobel

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by tiny on 17.09.12 18:02

@cristobel wrote:Dear Russiandoll.
Please reconsider your decision to quit this forum,.
I can fully understand how you feel about the insensitive and judgemental things that have been said about Hillsborough - it's nothing new after 23 years - and some people find it hard to let go of a prejudice, even when presented with facts.
Please stay, or at least, don't make a hasty decision when you are upset.
With very best regards
Cristobel

I second that,please reconsider .

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 17.09.12 18:13

All with the benefit of the 20:20 hindsight everyone possesses these days.

Outside the ground - There should have been more officers. Particularly when it became clear that there was a real threat of disorder as they came in along the road and arguing with the householders, vomiting and urinating in the gardens and so on. Some of the serials from the Forest Supporters end should have been re-deployed.
There should then have been a much better attempt at forming the crowd into long queues at each turnstile, rather than letting them crush forward as a block - although this is not easy and fans in those days did not "do" orderly queues.
The Police commander would have been aware of how many stewards there were, but again, in those days they were not what you see today. They were very often retired fans who stood on the touch line to watch their favourite club for nothing. Now they are entirely different, trained, disciplined and often organised by a retired police officer. It is of course it he club;s interest to have stewards so they do not have to pay for lots of Police.
If it had been decided to open the gate, then, as the reports have said, there should have been some way of finding out the state of the pens and then of blocking the central tunnel.
The problem then comes that fans do not respond to gentle words like "Please would you mind walking, and please do not run". The match had started, and already there had been one attempt at goal. Fans run. And Police officers know that. So even if they had been directed to another pen, they would still have rushed forward, down the same incline,and the same thing might have happened, albeit on a slightly smaller scale and perhaps with less devastating consequences.
But since there was no way of monitoring the pens or reporting back, and no way of stewarding the fans after they passed through the gate, it should not have been opened.
The decision we all took AFTER the event was that the two gates at the East Stand at Forest would NEVER be opened before half time except for an emergency evacuation. The serials of officers outside, which in a more junior rank included me for some years, would just have to live with what they found, and do their best.
But that is with the benefit of hindsight.
I wasn't there that day, although I visited the ground with a colleague to view it for ourselves later.
And therefore what I say has no weight.

The match should of course never have been at that venue, as has been explained.

The issue of large fines for pitch invasions is interesting, as it is that which lead to the cages being erected. One can understand that the FA had to do something, and it turned the issue back to the clubs. Just as it is now doing with racist abuse. It blames the club for the behaviour of its fans, in the hope that someone may come up with a solution.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by cristobel on 17.09.12 18:52

If the fans were really that badly behaved outside the ground why on earth did the police let them in? Why not refuse them entrance? In fact, if they were behaving as badly as is being claimed, why did the police not arrest them? The police have plenty of powers of arrest , so why not use them?



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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by ShuBob on 17.09.12 19:33

@tiny wrote:
@cristobel wrote:Dear Russiandoll.
Please reconsider your decision to quit this forum,.
I can fully understand how you feel about the insensitive and judgemental things that have been said about Hillsborough - it's nothing new after 23 years - and some people find it hard to let go of a prejudice, even when presented with facts.
Please stay, or at least, don't make a hasty decision when you are upset.
With very best regards
Cristobel

I second that,please reconsider .

Thirded (if such a word exists )


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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 17.09.12 22:41

If I were to conduct a review of losses from theft in a one of my chain of supermarkets I would concentrate not on the shoplifters and the staff pilfering itself.
They are obviously the ones who cause me the problem and commit the crime.
But as CEO of the chain, I would want to know what you, the store manager, are doing about it.
I take it as read that there are shoplifters and dishonest staff. So don't complain to me about that. I want to know what measures you have put in place or are intending to put in place to minimise or eliminate the problem.

If I am conducting a review of a family holiday in a resort known to be a haven for predatory paed****, I want to know what measures you, as parents, have put in place to eliminate or reduce the problem, to ensure the safety of the children. I take it as read that there are bad people in this world. So don't complain to me about that. I want to know what measures you parents have put in place or are intending to put in place to minimise or eliminate the danger.

If I am conducting a review of a disaster at a football match I want to know what you did to eliminate or reduce the problem of fans who are drunk, who arrive late and who are rowdy. I, and you, know that they will be. So don't complain to me about that. I want to know what measures you have out in place or are intending to put in place to minimise or eliminate the risk.

The drunks, shoplifters, and predatory paed**** are obviously at one level the problem. They are the ones who cause the damage and who commit the crimes, and perform the acts. But enquiries and reviews do not concern themselves with that level of human degradation and depravity. They want to know what the higher levels of the establishment are doing to prevent those at the bottom continuing their activities.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 18.09.12 11:27

alex thomson‏@alextomo
#c4news K Mackenzie told #c4news to "f**k off"



alex thomson‏@alextomo

#c4news I asked why he's disregarded his own journalists over Hillsborough headline 'The Truth'. He did not answer



alex thomson‏@alextomo

#c4news K Mackenzie tells #c4news "Please Alex, this isn't reasonable". Declines to expain himself over Hillsborough

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by aiyoyo on 18.09.12 12:35

K. Mackenzie is a national disgrace.
After his appalling behavior, his apology littered with excuses blaming others for feeding him this and that misinformation, as if he's no responsibility or no brain to engage in what his paper print, is just despicable attitude compounding his arrogance.
His apology is just passing the motion.
I doubt he feels regretful or shameful about his disgraceful behavior.

And, now to have the flaming cheek to swear on *national tv* just goes to show his arrogance knows no bound.

He should be banned from media work altogether without exception.



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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by aiyoyo on 18.09.12 14:41

e]]@ Russiandoll
There is a hoologan element at all big games, as there is drinking before arrival and late arrivals with or without tickets.
That ground was a death trap. [/b]The police failed. They covered up and an entire city was smeared. Lord knows how the families are coping with the revelations. Also the survivors. I think it is a disgrace that they could read comments like the above and others if they visited this forum. I am outraged.

I've abstained from commenting on this thread so far because I am not familiar with the Hillsborough disaster.

IMO the entity that should bear the lion share of the blame is the Event Organiser (Football Club )for failure to ensure a safe venue, failure to limit crowd level, and for not having put in place effective riot and choas management and control measures.

Yobs, mobs, drunkens, and all the undesirable social behaviors, and what not, associated to football is an unavoidable phenomenon in every match.
Nothing can the Brits so excitable and worked up as the country's favorite national sport. It is a sport unfailing to get people's adrenaline pumping then building up into a crescendo of mad frenzy that brings out people's passion, bad behavior, and sometimes violence to the fore.

In fact even at the risk of getting my knuckles rapped I would venture to say that's what gave UK national sport a bad reputation.
Badly behaved players and more often badly behaved crowd is synonymous with UK football, full stop.
The pub crawling culture before and after match is a phenomenon only in UK where pubs are aplenty every corner you turn.

A human tsunami by itself is an incredibly powerful human-current force that's unstoppable even if enough Police and Stewards were on hands. In fact the mass force of the human tsunami is dangerous too for Security and Safety Control staff because don't forget Control Personnel are also humans and if caught up in the human tsunami are also at risk of being crashed to death as other fellow beings.

Crowd dynamics. irrespective what they be, although it might have contributed to the human-induced human tsunami, is not the main cause of problem. When you have people packed densely like sardines, each squashing tightly amongst the other with not even a square inch between them then it is a catastrophe waiting to happen no matter what how and why.
Whoever made that decision to open up the gate letting in the uncontrollable force surging towards the same confined space made a terrible error of judgement and should stand up, own up, without shifting blame.

It's unfortunate that Police saw the need to alter statements.
That action erodes their credibility that even IF they'd done their best in that situation or if that situation is beyond them, no one will remember their deserving merits, or no one will try to understand their difficult position b/c people are too angry, and understandably so, in the circumstances to see beyond that.

How the papers and media are allowed to print and broadcast lies after lies without repercussions so far is unbelievable, be it of this case or other cases where reporting standard is appalling and fallen far short of expectations.
It is only now that a few (too few) are taken to books - and over what - not for crime of covering up a magnitude of death but for hacking!


Corrupt police, politicians, or whoever, would not have a voice if the papers did not pander to them.
It's a case of you scratch my back and I scratch yours for mutual interests that papers and politicians are partners in crime when it comes to the cover up. No wonders victim families are up in arms over their appalling behavior.

So who's going to compensate the victims families?
If you ask me, I say it is the papers, and no title more than Murdoch's *Sun* that print lies and the worst craps (if there is such a thing as worst craps, after all craps are just that) that should bear the consequences of their folly of malicious behavior

After a series of scandals, if Cameron's Government does not implement some new rules/laws to regulate the integrity of media work, then Cameron should be impeached.

If Cameron survives all these, then the truth of the mccanns lie when exposed, will SURELY be his undoing and fall from grace.
I just cant see him surviving mccannsgate. It will be one too many to ask the public to bear his propensity to cover up lies.
Covering up lies is one thing, knowingly protecting a pair of doctors' homicide crime against their own blood, and allowing them to spin and defraud the public is something beyond the forgiveness of the public.








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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 18.09.12 16:24

@aiyoyo wrote:
e]]@ Russiandoll
There is a hoologan element at all big games, as there is drinking before arrival and late arrivals with or without tickets.
That ground was a death trap. [/b]The police failed. They covered up and an entire city was smeared. Lord knows how the families are coping with the revelations. Also the survivors. I think it is a disgrace that they could read comments like the above and others if they visited this forum. I am outraged.

I've abstained from commenting on this thread so far because I am not familiar with the Hillsborough disaster.

IMO the entity that should bear the lion share of the blame is the Event Organiser (Football Club )for failure to ensure a safe venue, failure to limit crowd level, and for not having put in place effective riot and choas management and control measures.

Yobs, mobs, drunkens, and all the undesirable social behaviors, and what not, associated to football is an unavoidable phenomenon in every match.
Nothing can the Brits so excitable and worked up as the country's favorite national sport. It is a sport unfailing to get people's adrenaline pumping then building up into a crescendo of mad frenzy that brings out people's passion, bad behavior, and sometimes violence to the fore.

In fact even at the risk of getting my knuckles rapped I would venture to say that's what gave UK national sport a bad reputation.
Badly behaved players and more often badly behaved crowd is synonymous with UK football, full stop.
The pub crawling culture before and after match is a phenomenon only in UK where pubs are aplenty every corner you turn.

A human tsunami by itself is an incredibly powerful human-current force that's unstoppable even if enough Police and Stewards were on hands. In fact the mass force of the human tsunami is dangerous too for Security and Safety Control staff because don't forget Control Personnel are also humans and if caught up in the human tsunami are also at risk of being crashed to death as other fellow beings.

Crowd dynamics. irrespective what they be, although it might have contributed to the human-induced human tsunami, is not the main cause of problem. When you have people packed densely like sardines, each squashing tightly amongst the other with not even a square inch between them then it is a catastrophe waiting to happen no matter what how and why.
Whoever made that decision to open up the gate letting in the uncontrollable force surging towards the same confined space made a terrible error of judgement and should stand up, own up, without shifting blame.

It's unfortunate that Police saw the need to alter statements.
That action erodes their credibility that even IF they'd done their best in that situation or if that situation is beyond them, no one will remember their deserving merits, or no one will try to understand their difficult position b/c people are too angry, and understandably so, in the circumstances to see beyond that.

How the papers and media are allowed to print and broadcast lies after lies without repercussions so far is unbelievable, be it of this case or other cases where reporting standard is appalling and fallen far short of expectations.
It is only now that a few (too few) are taken to books - and over what - not for crime of covering up a magnitude of death but for hacking!


Corrupt police, politicians, or whoever, would not have a voice if the papers did not pander to them.
It's a case of you scratch my back and I scratch yours for mutual interests that papers and politicians are partners in crime when it comes to the cover up. No wonders victim families are up in arms over their appalling behavior.

So who's going to compensate the victims families?
If you ask me, I say it is the papers, and no title more than Murdoch's *Sun* that print lies and the worst craps (if there is such a thing as worst craps, after all craps are just that) that should bear the consequences of their folly of malicious behavior

After a series of scandals, if Cameron's Government does not implement some new rules/laws to regulate the integrity of media work, then Cameron should be impeached.

If Cameron survives all these, then the truth of the mccanns lie when exposed, will SURELY be his undoing and fall from grace.
I just cant see him surviving mccannsgate. It will be one too many to ask the public to bear his propensity to cover up lies.
Covering up lies is one thing, knowingly protecting a pair of doctors' homicide crime against their own blood, and allowing them to spin and defraud the public is something beyond the forgiveness of the public.

Excellent post Aiyoyo.

The police have a hideous job on the whole, and I think we need to acknowledge that they wouldn't have a job at all if individual human beings ALL behaved in a civilised manner and conducted themselves as they should do. But when they get it wrong, they should man-up and take responsibility.



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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 18.09.12 17:45

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
The police have a hideous job on the whole, and I think we need to acknowledge that they wouldn't have a job at all if individual human beings ALL behaved in a civilised manner and conducted themselves as they should do. But when they get it wrong, they should man-up and take responsibility.
Precisely. Neatly put.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 20.09.12 8:52

http://www.channel5.com/shows/the-truth-about-hillsborough/episodes/the-truth-about-hillsborough

Self-explanatory programme which some people may have missed because it wasn't scheduled.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 21.09.12 7:50

In case people have lost sight of the various documents, you need to start with Lord Justice Taylor's INTERIM report, where he sets out the facts - (including the drunkenness, ticketlessness and pushing against the gates - even if people don't want to read about that )

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/default/files/Taylor%20Interim%20Report.pdf

Then his FINAL report where he makes the recommendations about safety at football grounds, and how they should be policed and stewarded, but doesn't go over the facts again - because they were irrelevant to what he was saying.

http://www.epcollege.com/EPC/media/MediaLibrary/Knowledge%20Hub%20Documents/F%20Inquiry%20Reports/Hillsborough-Taylor-Report.pdf?ext=.pdf

And then the most recent report of the enquiry into the response of the emergency services.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf

They are all pdf and download very easily for research purposes.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 21.09.12 19:15

Have now read the interim report regarding the build up and the disaster. It makes one feel thoroughly sick to the stomach, those poor people crushed with no-where to escape to, be shoved and pushed. Truly heartbreaking.

There is most certainly a huge case to answer by the commanding officer at the event, no doubt about it. He was sat there not acting or noticing what was going on. I think a criminal trial should be forthcoming.

But there is also beyond question, a case to answer by each and every individual who decided to deliberately push and shove forward on that day. An individuals desire to get into a match on time does not permit them, in any way shape or form, to physically push and shove anybody - in fact it can, or should, be regarded as assault.

Unfortunately, personal choices made on the day removed the choices of the victims. The ba***rds who chose to push and shove their way in are as guilty as anyone of causing those deaths, and I hope that they realise this and live with their actions every day for the rest of their lives.

If this interim report is factually correct, there are thousands of guilty people. No-one has the right to push and shove anyone, ever.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 21.09.12 19:17

Ver sad story................

21 September 2012 Last updated at 11:03

Hillsborough papers: The story of one boy's death

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19601652

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 21.09.12 19:43

[quote="candyfloss"]Ver sad story................

21 September 2012 Last updated at 11:03

Hillsborough papers: The story of one boy's death

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19601652[/quot

What a terribly sad story. Whether the boy was alive or dead after 3-15, his mother not actually knowing the truth must be excruciating. To feel you've sent your kid out for a fun event, for it to end like that is the worst nightmare possible.

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Man U - v - Liverpool

Post by PeterMac on 24.09.12 10:01

None of the regular chants yesterday.
Has football at last begun to grow up ?

I hesitate to put online the lyrics of the anti Man U chants or the Anti Liverpool ones
Can we hope that this is more than a temporary truce ?
The people in the stands yesterday are the sons and daughters of those fans at Hillsborough. Do they, perhaps, begin to understand ?

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by jd on 24.09.12 11:06

I think its more the authorities needing to understand in this case. They need to understand that no matter what, they are not there to cover up, lie and slander & blame an innocent city in this very sad affair

Every single football team in this country has chants and not nice ones either. Football crowds always 'hiss' at Tottenham to try and create the gas chambers, its sickening. A certain section of society use football as their means of letting out their frustrations and general hatred that lives inside them. In the 21st century it is now more vented out through social networking like twitter and trolls invading forums

- A SOCCER star who was in the crowd as an 11-year-old with his dad yesterday slammed the cover-up as “sickening”. Burnley defender Michael Duff, who was a Forest fan, remembers it vividly.
He said: “You’d like to think that the government and the police force can be trusted — but they tried to pin the blame on the fans. It’s sickening.
....Too true

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 24.09.12 14:48

Absolutely agree. The authorities got it very wrong. And their attempt to cover it up is shameful.
The duty of the Police is to recognise the real nature of a sizeable minority of the fans and to deal with them appropriately.
And in that they failed.
I would love to believe that fans have changed, but am not confident.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 12.10.12 20:36

12 October 2012 Last updated at 18:37




Hillsborough probe 'to be UK's biggest into police conduct'


The biggest ever independent investigation into police wrongdoing is to be carried out following a damning report into the Hillsborough disaster.

The IPCC police watchdog and director of public prosecutions have announced they will both launch inquiries into possible crimes committed by police.

The IPCC said both serving and former officers would be investigated over the deaths of 96 Liverpool fans in 1989.

The Hillsborough Family Support Group said it was "too good to be true".

The Director of Public Prosecutions Keir Starmer will review evidence relating to how the 96 fans died, which could lead to charges of manslaughter through gross negligence.

Continues on link below............

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19922092

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by jd on 13.10.12 1:02

Maybe they will find out it was actually the police that were lagered up with their decisions, which led to 95 people losing their lives

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 20.10.12 7:22

If you want to know if fans have changed, watch the news this morning.
Hillsborough again, bottles thrown, man goes onto the pitch and physically attacked the goalkeeper. . .

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 20.10.12 9:16

There's no doubt that some people claiming to be fans are in fact troublemakers and hooligans - always has been and probably always will.

That doesn't mean though that they were solely responsible for what happened at Hillsborough; it was a catalogue of errors, aggravated by those in authority trying to cover their backsides.

Hmm, we've heard that before and since, haven't we.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 20.10.12 10:37

Jean wrote:There's no doubt that some people claiming to be fans are in fact troublemakers and hooligans - always has been and probably always will.
That doesn't mean though that they were solely responsible for what happened at Hillsborough; it was a catalogue of errors, aggravated by those in authority trying to cover their backsides.
Hmm, we've heard that before and since, haven't we.
Precisely. You are exactly right.

The police and stewards FAILED yesterday to stop that cretin getting onto the pitch and attacking the goal keeper.
They then FAILED to arrest him
They FAILED to prevent people getting into the ground armed with bottles
They FAILED.

It is exactly parallel with the incident subject of those three reports.
The police had a duty to prevent people behaving in a particular way, and they FAILED.
They knew they would behave in that way, which is why there were 800 police officers on duty.
They were not taken by surprise.
They were not there to show people the way to the stall selling cucumber sandwiches, or to the Pimm's tent.
They were there to stop them killing each other.
And they FAILED

And a failure by the police to maintain public order is the worst thing that can happen.
That is what the police are there for. Not for motoring offences, or shoplifting, or burglary
That is what they do when they are not doing their main job, which is to keep the country governable.


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