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Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 19.12.14 22:39

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2880934/Angry-scenes-Hillsborough-inquest-barrister-asks-Kenny-Dalglish-drunk-violent-ticketless-fans.html

Angry scenes at Hillsborough inquest as barrister asks Kenny Dalglish about drunk, violent and ticketless fans
Former Liverpool FC manager has given evidence at Hillsborough inquest
Kenny Dalglish quizzed about drunk and ticketless fans 'prone' to violence
He was questioned by barrister about fans 'bunking in' to games
John Beggs QC read excerpts from Mr Dalglish's book My Liverpool Home
Mr Dalglish was the team boss the day the tragedy unfolded in April 1989

By JENNY AWFORD FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 17:47 GMT, 19 December 2014 | UPDATED: 19:43 GMT, 19 December 2014

Former Liverpool FC player and manager Kenny Dalglish was questioned about drunk and ticketless fans 'prone' to violence
Former Liverpool FC player and manager Kenny Dalglish was questioned about drunk fans 'prone' to violence who would try to get into grounds without tickets when giving evidence at the Hillsborough inquests today.
In a heated exchange, the barrister representing former Hillsborough match commander Superintendent David Duckenfield repeatedly asked Mr Dalglish about fan hooliganism.
John Beggs QC quizzed the former manager about what he had written in his autobiography about ticketless fans 'bunking in' to games – prompting angry scenes at the inquests.
Mr Dalglish was the team boss on the day the tragedy unfolded in April 1989 and broadcast a message to fans asking for calm at the request of South Yorkshire Police.
Ninety-six Liverpool fans died from the crush at the Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough stadium as the FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest got under way.
Mr Beggs pointed out that in Mr Dalgish's 2010 book My Liverpool Home, he spoke of 'Scousers' climbing through windows and using ropes to get into Wembley Stadium.
He write that the fans were 'bunking in to the most famous stadium in the world for the final of the oldest trophy in football' for the Liverpool v Everton FA Cup Final in 1986.
Mr Beggs read another passage in which Mr Dalglish gave his reaction when the official attendance was given at the game - 98,000.
'I just laughed, as there must have been 110,000 crammed in, beneath the twin towers.'
The barrister told the court, here was an 'icon' of the game of football, and especially to Liverpool fans, 'laughing at the fact they broke the law' by gaining entry to a football ground without tickets.
Mr Dalglish said he laughed at the official attendance figures - not people allegedly 'bunking in'.

Mr Dalglish was the team boss on the day the tragedy unfolded in April 1989 and broadcast a message to fans asking for calm at the request of South Yorkshire Police
Mr Beggs then moved on to a post-match Home Office report about the FA Cup Final in 1989, another all-Merseyside final, a month after the Hillsborough disaster.
The report spoke of the 'sheer scale' of attempts to bunk in from fans from Merseyside, which was 'troubling'.

Mr Dalglish said the 'clamber for tickets' for the all-Merseyside Cup Final was 'overwhelming' to 'show their unity and support for the families who had lost loved ones at Hillsborough'.
The witness was then asked about what he had written in his book about the Heysel disaster of 1985 involving Liverpool fans in which 39 rival Juventus fans were killed.
Ninety-six Liverpool fans died from the crush at the Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough stadium as the FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest got under way
Mr Dalglish had written that only 'chicken wire' separated the groups of 'passionate' supporters which was inadequate.
Mr Beggs continued: 'Are you not acknowledging that within the Liverpool supporters there was a cohort of supporters prone to violence?'
'No,' Mr Dalglish replied.
Rajiv Menon QC, representing some of the families of victims of the disaster, also questioned the former manager about the behaviour and reputation of Liverpool fans in the 1980s.
Mr Dalglish replied saying: 'I think Liverpool football fans, with that one exception, were very highly respected and revered. I think they were well known for the support they gave the team.'
Pete Weatherby QC, also representing families, asked the witness if, in his opinion, there was 'no connection whatsoever' between what happened at Hillsborough and the Heysel disaster.
Mr Dalglish replied: 'Heysel, it's people fighting and people have been arrested and charged and jailed.'
Wearing a suit with a red and white striped tie and a '96' badge, Mr Dalglish also told the inquests there was no way he would have objected to a request to delay the kick off.
The jury heard that Mr Dalglish arrived with his team at 1.30pm on the day and went straight to the dressing room where he remained until just before kick-off.
When asked by Christina Lambert, counsel to the inquests about the six minutes between kick-off and the referee stopping play, Mr Dalglish said his focus was on the game.
'We were watching what we were doing during the game and making sure that we were organised and we were doing our job properly,' he said.
He described the 'mayhem' at Hillsborough during the disaster.
'Nobody knew what was going on,' he told the inquests. 'There were stories coming from every angle.'

So, as an ex-cop, and long time commander of Nottingham Forest, County and Trent Bridge matches, let me spell it out again
It took me a long time to realise what this was about - - - and it is this

YOU - Mr Policeman - KNOW, that there will be drunken violent ticketless Liverpool supporters trying to get into the Leppings Lane end.
The have done it for years, all over Europe,
This is NOT the queue for the Seafood Bar at Henley Royal Regatta.

So YOU, Mr Policeman, have unlimited resources, and unlimited time to make some proper provision for what you KNOW is going to occur.
The Magnificent Seven did it.
Now it is your turn.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by aquila on 19.12.14 22:57

@PeterMac wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2880934/Angry-scenes-Hillsborough-inquest-barrister-asks-Kenny-Dalglish-drunk-violent-ticketless-fans.html

Angry scenes at Hillsborough inquest as barrister asks Kenny Dalglish about drunk, violent and ticketless fans
Former Liverpool FC manager has given evidence at Hillsborough inquest
Kenny Dalglish quizzed about drunk and ticketless fans 'prone' to violence
He was questioned by barrister about fans 'bunking in' to games
John Beggs QC read excerpts from Mr Dalglish's book My Liverpool Home
Mr Dalglish was the team boss the day the tragedy unfolded in April 1989

By JENNY AWFORD FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 17:47 GMT, 19 December 2014 | UPDATED: 19:43 GMT, 19 December 2014

Former Liverpool FC player and manager Kenny Dalglish was questioned about drunk and ticketless fans 'prone' to violence
Former Liverpool FC player and manager Kenny Dalglish was questioned about drunk fans 'prone' to violence who would try to get into grounds without tickets when giving evidence at the Hillsborough inquests today.
In a heated exchange, the barrister representing former Hillsborough match commander Superintendent David Duckenfield repeatedly asked Mr Dalglish about fan hooliganism.
John Beggs QC quizzed the former manager about what he had written in his autobiography about ticketless fans 'bunking in' to games – prompting angry scenes at the inquests.
Mr Dalglish was the team boss on the day the tragedy unfolded in April 1989 and broadcast a message to fans asking for calm at the request of South Yorkshire Police.
Ninety-six Liverpool fans died from the crush at the Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough stadium as the FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest got under way.
Mr Beggs pointed out that in Mr Dalgish's 2010 book My Liverpool Home, he spoke of 'Scousers' climbing through windows and using ropes to get into Wembley Stadium.
He write that the fans were 'bunking in to the most famous stadium in the world for the final of the oldest trophy in football' for the Liverpool v Everton FA Cup Final in 1986.
Mr Beggs read another passage in which Mr Dalglish gave his reaction when the official attendance was given at the game - 98,000.
'I just laughed, as there must have been 110,000 crammed in, beneath the twin towers.'
The barrister told the court, here was an 'icon' of the game of football, and especially to Liverpool fans, 'laughing at the fact they broke the law' by gaining entry to a football ground without tickets.
Mr Dalglish said he laughed at the official attendance figures - not people allegedly 'bunking in'.

Mr Dalglish was the team boss on the day the tragedy unfolded in April 1989 and broadcast a message to fans asking for calm at the request of South Yorkshire Police
Mr Beggs then moved on to a post-match Home Office report about the FA Cup Final in 1989, another all-Merseyside final, a month after the Hillsborough disaster.
The report spoke of the 'sheer scale' of attempts to bunk in from fans from Merseyside, which was 'troubling'.

Mr Dalglish said the 'clamber for tickets' for the all-Merseyside Cup Final was 'overwhelming' to 'show their unity and support for the families who had lost loved ones at Hillsborough'.
The witness was then asked about what he had written in his book about the Heysel disaster of 1985 involving Liverpool fans in which 39 rival Juventus fans were killed.
Ninety-six Liverpool fans died from the crush at the Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough stadium as the FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest got under way  
Mr Dalglish had written that only 'chicken wire' separated the groups of 'passionate' supporters which was inadequate.
Mr Beggs continued: 'Are you not acknowledging that within the Liverpool supporters there was a cohort of supporters prone to violence?'
'No,' Mr Dalglish replied.
Rajiv Menon QC, representing some of the families of victims of the disaster, also questioned the former manager about the behaviour and reputation of Liverpool fans in the 1980s.
Mr Dalglish replied saying: 'I think Liverpool football fans, with that one exception, were very highly respected and revered. I think they were well known for the support they gave the team.'
Pete Weatherby QC, also representing families, asked the witness if, in his opinion, there was 'no connection whatsoever' between what happened at Hillsborough and the Heysel disaster.
Mr Dalglish replied: 'Heysel, it's people fighting and people have been arrested and charged and jailed.'
Wearing a suit with a red and white striped tie and a '96' badge, Mr Dalglish also told the inquests there was no way he would have objected to a request to delay the kick off.
The jury heard that Mr Dalglish arrived with his team at 1.30pm on the day and went straight to the dressing room where he remained until just before kick-off.
When asked by Christina Lambert, counsel to the inquests about the six minutes between kick-off and the referee stopping play, Mr Dalglish said his focus was on the game.
'We were watching what we were doing during the game and making sure that we were organised and we were doing our job properly,' he said.
He described the 'mayhem' at Hillsborough during the disaster.
'Nobody knew what was going on,' he told the inquests. 'There were stories coming from every angle.'

So, as an ex-cop, and long time commander of Nottingham Forest, County and Trent Bridge matches, let me spell it out again
It took me a long time to realise what this was about  - - -  and it is this

YOU - Mr Policeman -  KNOW, that there will be drunken violent ticketless Liverpool supporters trying to get into the Leppings Lane end.
The have done it for years, all over Europe,
This is NOT the queue for the Seafood Bar at Henley Royal Regatta.

So YOU, Mr Policeman, have unlimited resources, and unlimited time to make some proper provision for what you KNOW is going to occur.
The Magnificent Seven did it.
Now it is your turn.
PeterMac, do you remember after the Hillsborough disaster there was a big training effort for commanders of football grounds?

I do. I know someone who was a commander at that time of a large football team. It was a huge training effort on crowd control/safety. This was after Hillsborough.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 20.12.14 7:15

@aquila wrote:
PeterMac, do you remember after the Hillsborough disaster there was a big training effort for commanders of football grounds?
I do. I know someone who was a commander at that time of a large football team. It was a huge training effort on crowd control/safety. This was after Hillsborough.


I certainly do.
I was part of it.
I ran Notts Forest and County matches for many years.
The interesting first lecture at Bramshill on the course was the immensely long list of disasters, riots, and deaths and injuries at football grounds all over the world
Hillsborough was, sadly, just another one in a very long list, which has continued since that day.

Scarrott used to hang out in the pubs round the Forest Ground, and one of our main tasks before each game was to find him.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by aquila on 20.12.14 7:48

There was a tv production made in the 90's - I can't for the life of me remember what it was called - which showed how organised hooliganism operated under the guise of football fans. It was a revelation to see accountants, lawyers etc were part of it - not just the working class 'tattooed thug'. This was organised crime/anarchy on a large scale.

Sorry if I'm drifting slightly off topic.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by BlueBag on 20.12.14 7:58

Yes the Police have some responsibility for what happened.

What sticks in my craw is the washing of hands by football supporters.

I went every week to matches during the 70s and early 80s, I know why the fences were erected and why the police treated supporters like cattle. 

Just one of hundreds of examples on YouTube:



I eventually stopped going because of this regular nonsense.

Let's not forget Heysel.

I've never seen a Liverpool supporter say the fans share the responsibility.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Doug D on 20.12.14 13:08

Used to go to Chelsea in my youth.
 
I remember at the Chelsea/Leeds cup final at Wembley having tickets for the section being favoured by the ‘Shed’ fans and as soon as you got through the second security check onto the terrace, handing the ticket stub to collectors who then took bundles out & distributed them to their mates who had tickets in other areas, so they could get into your ‘pen’.
 
Most people willingly handed them over with not even a thought about safety issues in those days.
 
As for the turnstiles, which were only at waist level then, the organized bunching on both sides of the turnstiles, in order to let those without tickets come in through your legs as you were having your ticket stub torn off, as well as the ropes out the ‘windows’ on the stairwells, that’s another story.
 
No thoughts of ‘elf & safety’ back then.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Gaggzy on 20.12.14 17:08

@BlueBag wrote:Yes the Police have some responsibility for what happened.

What sticks in my craw is the washing of hands by football supporters.

I went every week to matches during the 70s and early 80s, I know why the fences were erected and why the police treated supporters like cattle. 

Just one of hundreds of examples on YouTube:



I eventually stopped going because of this regular nonsense.

Let's not forget Heysel.

I've never seen a Liverpool supporter say the fans share the responsibility.

Many Liverpool fans were identified on camera taking part in the violence.

14 fans stood trial in Belgium, were found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and were given prison sentences.

So don't you believe that the law identified and punished those who 'shared the responsibility?'

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by BlueBag on 20.12.14 18:58

Read what I said.

Same applies to Hillsborough.

Fans weren't caged just because the Police felt like it.

There were reasons.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by aquila on 20.12.14 19:31

In the late 70's & 80's there was the Punk Rock anarchic movement which I seem to remember attached itself to Milwall FC. I have first hand knowledge of encountering Milwall 'fans' in that era (not in a football stadium but outside my own home on one of their 'away matches - a man's scalp was taken in the affray). These weren't football fans - this was organised violence and it came by the coach load. These fans didn't get off a coach to watch a game of football. They came for violence.

I don't wish to upset anyone who lost a relative in the Hillsborough disaster, far from it. Lots of innocent people got caught up in this and lost their lives. However, it's not just the policing of the event that needs to be considered, it's those within the crowd that were there to 'storm the effing building' for want of a better phrase, with malice aforethought. Match after match was consumed by violent fans ripping up the towns pre, during and post match. All this supposedly in the name of a national game. The Dutch suffered similar I believe.

I lived yards from a football ground and didn't ever attend a match. Living near the ground and watching the thuggery told us all that it was not a place of safety in those days.

I lived not too far from a rugby ground and attended many matches. All light hearted banter and absolutely no threat of violence. Very low profile policing.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by ultimaThule on 09.01.15 11:30

And the first candidate for the 'Insensitive Twat of the Year Award' is PFA's chief exec Gordon Taylor, a man whose obsession with talking balls has caused him to make this odious comparison:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/11334635/Listen-Gordon-Taylor-appears-to-compare-Ched-Evans-to-Hillsborough-families.html

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 09.01.15 12:41

@aquila wrote:. Lots of innocent people got caught up in this and lost their lives. However, it's not just the policing of the event that needs to be considered, it's those within the crowd that were there to 'storm the effing building' for want of a better phrase, with malice aforethought.
Quite.
The ones who died were the youngster at the front, who had tickets, who had arrived on time, and who were not drunk.
They were crushed from behind by the morons who were all three of those things, and who should never have been allowed anywhere near the ground.
That was the great failing of the Police.
There should have been outer cordons, filter systems and all the rest in place.

But behind that of course, the Ground should never have been used for that event. No Safety Certificate, previous crushings . . .

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by woodbine on 09.01.15 15:16

I greatly respect many of the posters who do good work on this site, but in this instance, as a Liverpool fan, and someone who has read a great deal on this tragedy, I suggest people do a little more research before laying blame at the "drunk morons" at the back. This was the garbage spouted by the Sun and the Yorkshire police that has been clearly debunked. People have worked for and suffered for years clearing the names of those involved. If you're getting your information from the tabloids regarding Hillsborough, why don't you do the same for Maddie?

There was no excessive drinking beyond the norm for a football match (besides the occasional exception typical of any working class spectacle), and the number who entered the Leppings Lane end was below the official capacity of the stand. The failings of the Football association to check for safety certificates, the refusal to allow the more numerous Liverpool fans to use the larger stand and the failure of the police to funnel the fans to the empty pens was the primary cause.

The Taylor Inquiry:

Lord Taylor unequivocally stated that most of them were: "not drunk, nor even the worse for drink". He concluded that the police, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the element of drunkenness in the crowd.

Wikepedia:
On 12 September 2012, the Hillsborough Independent Panel[84] concluded that no Liverpool fans were responsible in any way for the disaster,[85] and that its main cause was a "lack of police control".

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by aquila on 09.01.15 15:22

@woodbine

I am so sorry if what I posted offended you. I shall read more about this tragedy as you suggest.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by woodbine on 09.01.15 15:28

No problem Aquila. Like the McCann case, this one makes my blood boil

As for the lateness of the crowd entering the stadium, only one train was chartered to carry the fans from Merseyside as opposed to the standard 3. Added to supporters being delayed by road works on the M62 resulting in minor traffic congestion, and you have too many fans trying to get into the smaller end of Hillsborough 20 minutes before kick off. A request was made to delay kick off and ignored

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Claire25 on 26.04.16 12:24

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3558745/Hillsborough-inquests-jury-deliver-verdict.html

Sorry I can't copy and paste the content without getting rid of all the bumf

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by woodbine on 26.04.16 12:29

27 years!! Just shows that as long as there are people fighting, the truth will come out in the end!

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Hillsborough

Post by willowthewisp on 26.04.16 13:43

It just shows the contempt of our Politicians/Police that they have for the different classes in Society over the Hillsborough tragedy and the cover up for over Twenty Seven Years? 
In fact there is one MP Andy Burnham,who was forced by the relatives from the Hillborough disaster group,that he gave an undertaking to "Find out the Truth" from the Anfield Stadium commemoration anniversary after years of campaigning by them for Justice?
when Labour were last in Government,Jack straw could not bring himself to do the right and proper thing to afford an Investigation into this disaster when he was the Home Secretary,clearly against the Oath that he swear upon when entering into Parliament?
In effect this just highlights how much the"Establishment" can collude to evade Justice for the innocent victims caught up in tragic events,the Lockerbie plane disaster and the jailing of Mr Meghari for a part he was never involved in and we have yet to hear of the Home Office report on the unsolved murder of Daniel Morgan,perhaps the Government may release that on the 23 June 2016,just like Sir Bernard Hogan Howe has done today with the Hillsborough decision/Madeleine McCann decision,after DCS Mick Duthie stated they were still investigating her whereabouts during Operation Grange since 2011,yet Sir Bernard has other ideas,Closure?

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by woodbine on 26.04.16 14:06

The day after Hillsborough, the Sun reported that Liverpool fans urinated on police, pick-pocketed dead victims and prevented brave PCs giving the kiss of life to some of the victims.

Kenny Dalglish, then Liverpool manager, later addressed the story in his autobiography:

"When the Sun came out with the story about Liverpool fans being drunk and unruly underneath a headline 'The Truth,' the reaction on Merseyside was one of complete outrage. Newsagents stopped stocking the Sun. People wouldn't mention its name. They were burning copies of it. Anyone representing the Sun was abused.

"Kelvin MacKenzie, the Sun's editor, even called me up:

"'How can we correct the situation?" he said.

"'You know that big headline - 'The Truth',' I replied. 'All you have to do is put 'We lied' in the same size. Then you might be all right.'

"Mackenzie said: 'I cannot do that.'

"'Well," I replied, 'I cannot help you then.'

Later Mackenzie said: "I regret Hillsborough. It was a fundamental mistake. The mistake was I believed what an MP said. It was a Tory MP. If he had not said it and the chief superintendent had not agreed with it, we would not have gone with it," he told the Commons national heritage committee in January, 1993.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by MayMuse on 26.04.16 14:13

Disgusting!! Put a few letters behind a 'name' & they think they are untouchable and own the World!!!!

Far too many people out there lack 'moral compass' aaagh

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by sallypelt on 26.04.16 14:37

What a bitter-sweet day for all the families of those who died. They fought 27 years for justice for their precious loved ones who died in such tragic, and totally  unnecessary circumstances. There is no greater injustice than an innocent person being accused of a wrong they didn't commit, and this is especially true for those who have lost their lives, and can't defend themselves against the lies; lies from those very people we put our faith and trust in.  What FILTH some of these so-called "respected" people are.
 
However, very little has changed, and within the last few days, we have seen a repeat of this gutter newspaper doing the same thing all over again. I won't explain what I mean, as it's been self explanatory, suffice to say, I am happy to be branded a "sick troll" by such a filthy comic newspaper

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by BlueBag on 26.04.16 15:52

Does this mean the fans are blameless?

I hope not.

Tragic mistakes were made on the day by the Police and other authorities - there were lies and coverups afterwards.

But the reason for some of the policing methods that day was as a response to football crowd behavior over the previous 15 years.

The fences were in place for a reason - pitch invasions and fights.

Less turnstiles than normal were open for a reason - to keep Liverpool and Forest fans further apart.

A crush entering a ground was nothing new at football matches. I had been in several at the time and feared for my life each time. Each of those crushes were not helped by fans turning up late from the pub and pushing from the back.. I remember one instance where there were people running at the crowd and pushing and thinking it was funny.

I know this will be an unpopular post, I don't care. I WAS there at football matches in the 1970s and 1980s and I know what the crowds were like. Oh what "fun" it was back then.. keeping one eye open in case you had to leg it quick (a regular occurrence). 

I stopped going for years in the end. It was sickening.

Heysal is also never to be forgotten - no one would have died if the fans weren't kicking each other to bits. 

So I hope one day the fans share the blame (I won't hold my breath).

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by woodbine on 26.04.16 16:39

Good lord. Go on twitter and tell the families of the 96 that died that the fans should share the blame. I'm sure after 27 years of campaigning they'll be fine about it

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by BlueBag on 26.04.16 16:58

@woodbine wrote:Good lord. Go on twitter and tell the families of the 96 that died that the fans should share the blame. I'm sure after 27 years of campaigning they'll be fine about it
Did I say blame the familes?

Why were the fences there in the first place?

What happened at Heysal?

Did you go to football matches in the 70s and 80s?

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by jeanmonroe on 26.04.16 17:07

And CAMERON straight on the 'band wagon'..............'I ALWAYS believed the families' in their pursuit of justice' (the justice HIS 'heroine' PM MT had 'covered up' at all costs!)

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by BlueBag on 26.04.16 17:24

Don't ever tell me that football fans are blameless.




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