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Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 20.10.12 16:58

Nice comment in the Torygraph
Football is a great party for the majority too easily ruined by a minority, an unholy trinity of society’s detritus, match-day drunks and misguided limelight-seekers

and later
“They are vile animals,” said the Wednesday manager, Dave Jones, who had to endure tasteless chants from Leeds fans. Some Wednesday fans also embarrassed their club with one song in particular.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 20.10.12 23:46

I remember the days when there were no hooligans. But I must admit that that's a very long time ago ...

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Lioned on 21.10.12 0:05

Châtelaine wrote:I remember the days when there were no hooligans. But I must admit that that's a very long time ago ...

I started to go to football in the 60's and there were hooligans then.Infact Hooligans date back to the !9th C so you must be very old indeed.

Hooligans in the Eastend of London dated back to fights in the docks over work when the ships came in to the Thames docks .In particular the dockers in the isle of dogs and thames iron works. i.e. Millwall and West Ham.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 21.10.12 0:16

@Lioned wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:I remember the days when there were no hooligans. But I must admit that that's a very long time ago ...

I started to go to football in the 60's and there were hooligans then.Infact Hooligans date back to the !9th C so you must be very old indeed.

Hooligans in the Eastend of London dated back to fights in the docks over work when the ships came in to the Thames docks .In particular the dockers in the isle of dogs and thames iron works. i.e. Millwall and West Ham.
***
I know, hooligans are named after the Hooligan family. And I'm Dutch. First time I noticed violence on the Dutch soccer fields was early 70's [but I may be mistaken]. Anyway, I distinctly remember supporters going to another city where "their" club was playing, starting to take the train apart. The train driver stopped on the track halfway and stayed there until the match was over ... That was a real and effective punishment ;-) Unfortunately later on it was always police force trying to control the situation. And then I remember again a very nice, plain, easy-going colleague at work in Amsterdam, who complained that he was getting upset when going to a match. Because police would be waiting in numbers outside the railway station and herd them like cattle in fast space to the stadium. These were they only times he ever felt "aggressive" ...

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Lioned on 21.10.12 0:45

I have lots of stories i could tell you about football and hooligans in the 60/70/80,s but its getting a bit late now.

I can tell you that things are much better now.Stadiums are far safer and more comfortable (though i always prefered to stand up).
There is very little racism now (in the UK),though it is still there without a doubt.

There are still lots of hooligans but it happens more outside the grounds now.There are unfortunately still isolated incidents like at Sheffield last night.

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Cretin jailed

Post by PeterMac on 22.10.12 13:18

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/fan-jailed-over-pitch-assault-on-england-goalkeeper-chris-kirkland-8219612.html

A football fan was jailed for 16 weeks today after he admitted attacking a goalkeeper during a televised football match.
The court heard that he had been the subject of two football banning orders in the past, which he had breached four times.
Despite living with his mother in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, he had supported Leeds United all his life and went to every game - home and away, a district judge was told.
Prosecutor Paul Macaulay said Cawley told police he was so drunk he could not remember the incident, which has been seen by millions of TV viewers.
District Judge Naomi Redhouse said she had not seen the footage and it was played for her in court today.
Mr Macaulay said Cawley told officers he had drunk a number of cans of Stella Artois lager on Friday morning, followed by three-quarters of a litre of vodka - all before he got to Sheffield by train.
Once in Sheffield, he had a further seven to 10 pints of cider,
the court heard.
District Judge Redhouse heard that Cawley, of Blenheim Square, Cheltenham, only realised what he had done when other people told him and then he saw himself clearly on TV.

Nevertheless it was still the duty of the police to stop him.
But at least you can understand what they are up against.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by ShuBob on 22.10.12 14:28

We all know that some football fans drink heavily before/during/after games. Still wasn't the cause of the Hillsborough tragedy which I believe this thread is about.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 22.10.12 22:36

22 October 2012 Last updated at 21:55




Hillsborough: 1,444 police names passed to IPCC


The names of 1,444 former and serving police officers have been passed to the Independent Police Complaints Commission as part of its investigation into the Hillsborough disaster.

Home Affairs Committee chairman Keith Vaz told MPs the "huge number" had been revealed to him in a letter from South Yorkshire Police's chief constable.

The government said the number showed the "enormity" of the investigation.

More on link below...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20035472


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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 22.10.12 22:52

@ShuBob wrote:We all know that some football fans drink heavily before/during/after games. Still wasn't the cause of the Hillsborough tragedy which I believe this thread is about.
Indeed not. The cause was the failure of the police to prevent the drunks getting in.
My posting was to demonstrate, that even 25 years later, even after all the Safety at Sports Grounds Acts, even after making it a specific offence to be drunk in a designated Sports ground, making it a specific offence to encroach on the field of play . . .and all the other measures that everyone has tried to take - - - There are people, who a whole generation after Hillsborough, still behave in this way.
Why?
What is is about the commercial game of Association Football that either attracts morons, or creates them.
No other sport does this.
Trent Bridge has a capacity of 17,500, most of whom sit in the sun for hours on end and drink huge quantities of alcohol throughout each day of a Test Match. Numbers of people arrested for drunkenness or public disorder - In my time managing the matches, almost nil
Rugby - a game played by men who engage in highly physical activity on the pitch. Numbers of drunken supporters arrested ? Almost nil.

What is it about Soccer, and more specifically, what is it about certain clubs' supporters, which turns them into lunatics for a few hours each weekend ?

How many Policing hours were put in to track Scarrott every weekend ? What did it cost ?

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by dragonfly on 23.10.12 0:24

@PeterMac wrote:
@ShuBob wrote:We all know that some football fans drink heavily before/during/after games. Still wasn't the cause of the Hillsborough tragedy which I believe this thread is about.
Indeed not. The cause was the failure of the police to prevent the drunks getting in.
My posting was to demonstrate, that even 25 years later, even after all the Safety at Sports Grounds Acts, even after making it a specific offence to be drunk in a designated Sports ground, making it a specific offence to encroach on the field of play . . .and all the other measures that everyone has tried to take - - - There are people, who a whole generation after Hillsborough, still behave in this way.
Why?
What is is about the commercial game of Association Football that either attracts morons, or creates them.
No other sport does this.
Trent Bridge has a capacity of 17,500, most of whom sit in the sun for hours on end and drink huge quantities of alcohol throughout each day of a Test Match. Numbers of people arrested for drunkenness or public disorder - In my time managing the matches, almost nil
Rugby - a game played by men who engage in highly physical activity on the pitch. Numbers of drunken supporters arrested ? Almost nil.

What is it about Soccer, and more specifically, what is it about certain clubs' supporters, which turns them into lunatics for a few hours each weekend ?

How many Policing hours were put in to track Scarrott every weekend ? What did it cost ?

I think the same could be said for the type of sportsman involved you only had to look at the England football team at one point and nearly everyone of them had cheated on their partner or had been involved in some kind of scandal they seem to lack any moral code

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 24.10.12 15:54

Hillsborough police chief quits ahead of hearing amid allegations of 'boasts over lies'

One of Britain's most senior policemen - Sir Norman Bettison - who allegedly 'boasted' about cooking up lies to blame Liverpool fans for the Hillsborough disaster has resigned


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2222313/Hillsborough-Sir-Norman-Bettison-resigns-police.html#ixzz2AEDuSLyf

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Can it get any worse? YES.

Post by PeterMac on 04.11.12 17:27


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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by aiyoyo on 05.11.12 12:19

candyfloss wrote:Hillsborough police chief quits ahead of hearing amid allegations of 'boasts over lies'

One of Britain's most senior policemen - Sir Norman Bettison - who allegedly 'boasted' about cooking up lies to blame Liverpool fans for the Hillsborough disaster has resigned


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2222313/Hillsborough-Sir-Norman-Bettison-resigns-police.html#ixzz2AEDuSLyf

Another *sir* in disgrace. Goodness how many heros knighted who turned out to be villains.

Sir Jimmy Savile
Sir Peter Morrison
Sir Clement Freud (allegedly)
Sir Cliff Richard ?

Sir Norman Bettison
Sir ?
Sir ?
Sir ?

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by ShuBob on 05.11.12 12:22

Not forgetting former RBS chief Sir Fred Goodwin who was unceremoniously stripped of his knighthood.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 05.11.12 12:24

Sir Fred Goodwin
LORD Archer
LORD Hanningfield
LORD Taylor

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Same result - different place

Post by PeterMac on 01.01.13 18:40

Stampede kills 60 at New Year firework display in Ivory Coast.
As many as 60 people have been crushed to death in a stampede as they gathered to watch a New Year’s Eve fireworks display in the Ivory Coast.
Rescue officials said that the disaster was caused by huge crowds pouring in through the main entrance of the Felix Houphouet Boigny Stadium, in Abidjan.
Lieutenant Colonel Issa Sako, head of the military rescue workers, said that there had been a “very large crush” in which partygoers were trampled to death.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/africa/article3645153.ece

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Family entertainment

Post by PeterMac on 15.04.13 15:34

Millwall, Sunderland, Newcastle - in one weekend.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by Guest on 15.04.13 15:51

@PeterMac wrote:Millwall, Sunderland, Newcastle - in one weekend.
Speaking as a Geordie lass, I have just two comments to make:

1. I think the Newcastle landlady in this story was harshly treated

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1406092/Insulting-soccer-scarf-costs-pub-landlady-400-penalty.html

...and

2. PARDEW OUT!

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 15.04.13 15:53

And just look at this idiot responsible citizen

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by plebgate on 16.04.13 9:06

@PeterMac wrote:And just look at this idiot responsible citizen

Attention Seeker. The way he jumped up and down when his side scored the first goal on Saturday (I think) was absolutely ridiculous I think.

Re. Pardew out. Wasn't he given an 8 year, yes 8 year contract. He knows his money is for certain despite how the club perform. Who made that decision?

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hillsborough-disaster-police-refuse-evidence

Post by PeterMac on 26.04.13 9:11

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/apr/25/hillsborough-disaster-police-refuse-evidence
Hillsborough disaster police officers to refuse to give evidence to inquest
Lawyers say officers will exercise right not to answer questions to avoid incriminating themselves in criminal proceedings

The Guardian, Thursday 25 April 2013 18.54 BST

Donna Miller, the sister of victim Paul Carlile, joins other Hillsborough families at the high court in London. Photograph: Dan Kitwood/Getty Images
Police officers on duty at Sheffield Wednesday's Hillsborough football ground when 96 Liverpool supporters died in 1989 will refuse to give evidence to the new inquest into the disaster, their barristers have said at a pre-inquest hearing.

Lawyers for the three most senior surviving officers in command that day, and the Police Federation representing lower-ranked officers, said the inquest should be delayed for years until any possible criminal proceedings have been concluded. If held before that, said Paul Greaney QC, for the Police Federation, officers under investigation for possible criminal misconduct would exercise their right not to answer questions, to avoid the risk of incriminating themselves.

"Many of those witnesses will be under investigation for possible offences, including homicide, and there is potential for them to be prosecuted," he said to the coroner, Lord Justice Goldring. "It is likely there will be an increased incidence of witnesses refusing to give evidence by invoking the privilege against self-incrimination."

From the rows of bereaved Hillsborough family members in the large courtroom on High Holborn in London, there were audible gasps, and one said, quite loudly: "Outrageous."

John Beggs QC, representing Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, who was in command at Hillsborough, and the senior officers inside and outside the ground, Superintendents Roger Greenwood and Roger Marshall, supported Greaney's call for the inquest to be delayed.

Goldring refused, however, and ruled that the new inquest should start in early 2014. He said that waiting for the criminal investigation, which was being led by former Durham chief constable Jon Stoddart, and then any prosecutions and appeals, could amount to a six-year delay.

In his opening remarks, Goldring expressed sympathy for the families' anguish and grief, and emphasised the need for the inquest to be held quickly, given that 24 years have already elapsed since the disaster. The original inquest with its verdict of accidental death was quashed in December after a long campaign against it by the families of the victims.

"I bear in mind that over that course of time some of the bereaved have died, most recently, of course, Anne Williams," Goldring said. Williams, 62, who lost her 15-year-old son Kevin at Hillsborough, died last week. "Her death is a powerful reminder, if one were needed, that there is an urgency attaching to the commencement of the inquest hearings."

Michael Mansfield QC, representing some of the families of the victims, pressed Goldring to appoint his own staff to handle the evidence for the inquest, saying the families had no faith in the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is gathering the evidence on police conduct during and after the disaster, and with whom Stoddart is working closely. Goldring said he would consider that request.

Goldring will decide next week the location for the new inquest, after the family groups disagreed about where they would prefer. Mansfield, representing the largest group, 71 families who are HFSG members, said their overwhelming majority view was for the inquest to be held in London. The principal reason, he said, was that London would be perceived as neutral in the bitterly contested history of Hillsborough, and there would be no possibility of "actual or perceived bias".

However Pete Weatherby QC, representing 20 families, and lawyers for two other families, argued London was too far for mostly Liverpool-based family members to attend in full, and somewhere neutral in the north, such as Preston, should host it.
I think this was fairly obvious from a long time ago.
Suspects do not have to give evidence.
We know that from another famous case.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 26.04.13 9:18

And just to show his complete impartiality,
Famous cases

As well as representing those wrongly convicted of the IRA's Guildford and Birmingham pub bombings, Mansfield has represented: the Angry Brigade; the Price sisters; Brian Keenan; the Orgreave miners; Mahmood Hussein Mattan, Ruth Ellis and James Hanratty (in posthumous appeals); those involved in the Israeli Embassy bombing; Stephen Lawrence's family; Michael Barrymore at the Stuart Lubbock inquest; Barry George at the inquest into the death of Jill Dando; the gangster Kenneth Noye;[5][6] the Bloody Sunday families; Arthur Scargill; Angela Cannings; Fatmir Limaj, a Kosovo-Albanian leader prosecuted in The Hague; Mohamed al-Fayed in the inquest into the deaths of his son Dodi al-Fayed and Diana, Princess of Wales; and the family of Jean Charles de Menezes. He has been referred to as a "champagne socialist" though he has said that 95 per cent of his work comes from legal aid. Wiki
In other words he accepts a brief from anyone who will pay.
I love the bit about 95% of his work comes from Legal Aid, with the clear intended inference that it is not very much.
A mate of mine from University is in the Top 10 Criminal Legal Aid list.
In 2010 he earned over £750,000 from that source alone.

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by aquila on 26.04.13 14:05

It seems relatively easy to cover up things. Begin an investigation (after being badgered for years by the relatives of victims) make noises, begin an investigation, make no arrests, continue to investigate, give those under investigation (without arresting them) the right to refuse to speak at a public inquest for fear of incrimination. Say it will take years for the investigation (unbelievable!) and then to add insult to injury suggest that the whole affair should take place in London to make things 'fair'.

What a disgrace.

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The truth begins to come out.

Post by PeterMac on 22.09.14 15:04

http://news.sky.com/story/1340160/hillsborough-fans-spat-at-me-says-policeman
By Mike McCarthy, North Of England Correspondent
A former mounted police officer has told the Hillsborough inquests that Liverpool fans threw beer and spat on him as he tried to keep order.

David Scott, an ex-police constable, said there was a marked contrast between the behaviour of Nottingham Forest fans and supporters of the opposing team as they arrived at the Sheffield stadium.
Mr Scott told the inquests jury that he and his horse, 'Silverwood', were diverted from helping to marshal Forest fans - who he described as "happy and jovial" to the arriving supporters from Liverpool.
He said several hundred fans from Merseyside were drinking from beer cans and were late getting into the stadium for the ill-fated FA cup semi-final.
The former South Yorkshire police officer told the hearing: "The mood of the crowd was intimidating because I was trying to ask people to move.
"In return, all I was getting was beer thrown at me, and being spat upon as well by members of the crowd outside [the stadium.] They were quite intimidating and restless."
The witness said fans were walking over people who had fallen to the ground and were crawling under the belly of his horse at the Leppings Lane entrance to the stadium.
"They didn't follow any sense of order," he said.
"On several occasions I actually recollect pleading with the fans not to be pushing from behind because they were trampling their fellow supporters, but I was met with a torrent of abuse."
In a written statement, made before his evidence today, the former policeman told investigators: "Never before have I been met with such hostility and drunken abusive behaviour from football fans, who seemed, in the main, totally oblivious to any requests for calm and order."

A barrister representing some of the bereaved families, Mark George QC, suggested that the behaviour had been no different from that at other big league matches and that Mr Scott had been exaggerating.

The witness replied: "I beg to differ."

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Re: Hillsborough: Families Braced For Revelations

Post by PeterMac on 11.10.14 8:42

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/10/hillsborough-inquest-police-admit-sun-report-fans-looted-corpses-false
Hillsborough inquest: police admit Sun report of fans looting corpses was false
Former inspector admits police were ‘playing Russian roulette’ with fans’ lives as disaster at ‘death trap’ entry was foreseeable

too long to quote in full, but worth a read.
FA, Sheffield, everybody trying to wriggle out of it.

He confirmed that the South Yorkshire police chief constable, Peter Wright, had concluded a Police Federation meeting four days after the deaths, on 19 April 1989, by saying: “If anybody should be blamed, it should be the drunken, ticketless individuals.”
That was the case Wright wanted to “pull together” and present to the official inquiry by Lord Justice Taylor, Sykes confirmed. The jury was told that Taylor rejected it.
He rejected it not because they WEREN"T drunken and ticketless and violent and everything else. They were.
He rejected it because it was the duty of the police - 800 on duty - to sort it out. They didn't

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