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Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by jd on 11.09.12 18:59

4x4 is not trademark of lone mad gunman, neither is a bike.

Its what hit men use

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by tigger on 11.09.12 19:07

@jd wrote:
4x4 is not trademark of lone mad gunman, neither is a bike.

Its what hit men use

If it was one single weapon, he must have had to reload. Allegedly the car itself was riddled with bullets - I don't know how much a clip holds but reloading must be likely. That might be the reason he missed the girl and with an empty gun used his weapon to hit her.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by bobbin on 11.09.12 20:23

@aiyoyo wrote:
@bobbin wrote:
Hi Aiyoyo, I can assure you that the cyclists were not involved. I know the area well, having holidayed there for more than 20 years.
The witness has made it clear that he does not wish to be harrassed by the press. He has given a full 8 hour statement to the police and all the essential information is there. He will obviously have been tested for powder or gun traces on his hands, blood spatters etc.

The press are all invasive and it is enough of a disturbance (when he had gone cycling in the peace of the mountains, as do MANY cyclists, mountain walkers and picnic-ers) to have had that tranquility burst asunder by the discovery of what must seem totally surreal and which called upon, what the police have described as, 'nerves of steel'.

It was only after the witness had turned the engine off, having put the little girl into the rescue position that he suddenly realised that a shooting had happened and that a sniper could be anywhere in the forest, with him in his sights. He called the emergency services immediately and then went back down the hill to turn all the other cyclists and cars around that were on their way up, in case they too got shot.

Neither cyclist had anything other than their bikes with them. Cyclists travel completely lightweight, especially there, with its steep inclines and a very pot-holed road, zig-zagging across the mountain stream which drops over waterfalls, into pools etc. It is very beautiful and a challenging exercise for cyclists.

There were quite a few cyclists riding up the hill, one older man pushing his bike, as there always are. Cars with walkers were also passing the cyclists. The top by the car park has cars parked nearly all the time, local forest wardens and maintenance workers frequent the area to service the national park. Walkers can appear out of the forest at any moment.

It is a crazy place to think of carrying out a 'discrete' assassination. This is evident, seeing that the cyclist was killed because he got there before the work was finished. It might even be that he lost his life shielding the little girl. He was a very good father having taken this year off after the birth of his third child, to look after the children and to let his wife get back to her law profession work.

When I see that he received 7 bullets I now think that he was a target on the move. The little girl was outside the car, she received a glancing shot to her shoulder. He received 5 bullets and two in the head. If the assassin had succeeded with the first two to the head, he would be a fool to hang around following them with another 5, when it is clear that the road is a stream of potential witness/traffic, albeit rural and hikers.

As for Sylvain, the slain cyclist, he is local, a lot of family in the area because families tend to be like that in Haute Savoie, and his work was more in the line of 'manual'. In Ugine most of the employees work at the local steel etc. plants which use the hydro-electric power of the water from the river that passes through Ugine to Albertville having dropped from powerful heights.

To me, the assassin was seizing a 'little window of opportunity' which turned out to be inadequate, hence Silvain being slain.
Furthermore, it is to be remembered that the assassin is still out there, somewhere until the police get to the bottom of the attack. It is still not clear as to whether it was deliberate set up, or a random crazy man and this all needs to be borne in mind.

Hi Bobbin,
I've holidayed in Haute Savoie a number of times in the winter season when we used to live in France up until a few years ago.
I must admit I don't know the area well as we were there mainly for our children to ski staying invariably in a chalet of our neighbour.

I didn't think either of the cyclist was involved in the killing. Au contraire in fact.
If report is to be believed that the slain cyclist, Slyvain Collier, worked for a nuclear equipment supplies company, and that the company Mr Al Hilli worked for was working on a secret contract for one of Europe's biggest defence companies, then it's not beyond the realm of possibility that both men knew each other through work association, and that they might be having a secret meeting there when they were taken out so to speak. Two birds with one stone.

Because of the highly classified and sensitive nature of his work, it's not surprising Al-Hilli was under security surveillance.
Unbeknown to him perhaps his phone was bugged also, so his every communication and movement were monitored by Big Brother.
If one considers the amount of ammunition used which isn't easy for a civilian to acquire, then the assassins might have been state agents.
Lone crazy man pattern is to target crowd in a crowded area like a school or holiday resort for example and not specific family.
This is either contracted job or secret agent doing IMO.

The ex-RAF cyclist chancing upon the massacre may just be pure coincidenc, again who knows.
To me, something stinks to high heaven in this case.

So the ex-RAF cyclist-witness had turned the engine off?
How? did he smash open the window as the car doors were reportedly locked.
Being ex-RAF with that kind of training he'd had, did he check for survival in the car?
Alright so the 4-year old was not in obvious sight, so maybe he missed her, that's fair enough.

But what to make of his odd train of thought and behavior?
Despite thinking that the sniper could be lurking around, with him in his sights, and therefore he could be in danger of being shot at, and therefore also that oncoming human traffic might face the same danger that he rushed downhill to warn them just in case, but strangely he'd thought nothing about leaving the injured (but alive) child alone waiting for emergency service to arrive, putting her life at risk of the hiding sniper finishing her off. How odd, especially when you take in account that he'd placed the girl in recovery position, a sign to the lurking around sniper that the girl was still alive.

Also, ask is it logical that an ex-RAF arriving on the scene to find freshly bullet-ridden adult bodies, including that of the cyclist he'd recognized as the one who went passed him massacred, and sniper no longer in sight, to think that sniper had not by then fled by car? From his background you would think that of all people, an RAF man should know better that sniper of any kind (even that of a lone mad-man kind) does not hang around to be seen even if he thought the sniper had arrived on foot through the forest.
Maybe I am stretching my imagination to the limit but an ex-RAF man on the scene arriving after the French cyclist who happened to work also in a sensitive industry is freaky for coincidence.
Did he rush down the hill (leaving an injured child) to stop oncoming human traffic from facing potential harm or was it to stop more people witnessing the crime scene.
How did he know the child wouldn't die and need comforting if it comes to that when he left her there to wait for help to arrive?
Or had the help arrived before he rushed down? If the help had arrived there isn't any need to rush down surely?

You have to wonder why two shots each in the head of each adult when one is already fatal, unless there was more than one killer, and the 40 bullets spent was just to confuse investigators.

It's perplexing why the child was shot outside the car and the doors to the car locked.
If she'd gone to toilet as someone posited then you would think at least an adult would have taken her especially since she's only a child and they were in an unfamiliar place. Also, why locked the car doors if she'd gone to the toilet?

Could it be the assassin ordered or dragged her out of the car before shooting at the adults inside?
Maybe being a child she was to be spared but somehow the cyclist instinctively stood in front of her to shield her and bullets meant for him hit her instead. Had the sniper wanted to kill her it would make no difference whether she was inside or outside the car.

You opined that was not "discrete location", maybe that wasn't a choice assassination location, but the opportunity presents itself.
Professional assassins are trained to take anyone out in the most unlikely of places and they'd still have managed it without any trace to them. Besides, a forested car park area with only occasional random passer-by isn't that bad a choice, especially if the idea was to do it away from home ground. Just maybe.





The first cyclist/witness (RAF guy) thought at first sight that there had been a car accident. Why would anyone think anything else. He had seen the car pass him going up hill when he was about two thirds of the way up the hill, but had not heard any gun shots. The French cyclist had passed him nearer to the top.

When he got to the scene and the car wheels were revving and digging into the dirt, the RAF cyclist found and moved the little girl to a safe position, then went to the drivers side of the car, and the window was crazed so he broke what was necessary to turn the key and the engine off. Then he noticed injuries incompatible with a car accident, that's when it started to sink in.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/french-alps-shooting-cyclist-girl
I now add the tonight's Guardian article. It still has some reporting errors in it, but it gives a better view of who went where to get help and why the little girl had to be left in her safe position.

The fact that makes this road risky for a secret assassination is that one cyclist was killed within a matter of minutes /seconds, of the car getting to the car park. Then another cyclist (RAF guy) arrived almost immediately, then a hiker followed on a few moments later, then others coming up the hill needed to be turned around.
A woman hiker, driving a car, corroborated the RAF cyclist's statement, saying that she had been passed by a 4 by 4 going downhill, away from the scene, fast enough to force her to move over.
The RAF cyclist had also been passed by the same vehicle right near the top. A motor bike had then also gone past him, a short bit after the car, going downhill, but more sedately.
The uphill traffic is typical for this national park with its access to the many mountain walks and it means that although it is up in the mountains, it is always likely to have some sort of sports person arriving around the last bend, out of the forests, or coming downstream, at any moment.
I do know people in the area and it is not doing justice to doubt the simply 'sport loving' cyclists. The man who lost his life and the RAF guy who acted immediately to save a life, and to alert the services which arrived very quickly, were simply out cycling as they so often do/did.
The RAF man, along with all the others gave long statements to the police who know where to find them whenever they want to check anything out.
With regards to wishing to remain anonymous, most of the witnesses did what they did to best help others in the awful circumstances and do not seek that 5 minutes of glory that with see with tedious frequency in the McCann case.
This slaughter is all too horrible and shocking to want to dwell on it or make any gain out of it.
The assassin is as yet unresolved and points more towards an assassination rather than a random killer.
I believe the police are intent on finding out what happened and one can only hope that this case will be completely differently handled than the McCann case, where we KNOW that false witness has been given and where a cover up and meddling from above is more than evident.
I hope the little girl will now be able to shine some light on what happened and I pray to god that she is being totally protected at all costs.

The journalists however, almost exclusively British have been commandeering the roads, helicopters etc. in their droves. Would you blame a witness for just wanting to help the police, leave them to do their investigation unhindered but keep themselves out of the limelight.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by bobbin on 11.09.12 20:44

@tigger wrote:
@jd wrote:
4x4 is not trademark of lone mad gunman, neither is a bike.

Its what hit men use

If it was one single weapon, he must have had to reload. Allegedly the car itself was riddled with bullets - I don't know how much a clip holds but reloading must be likely. That might be the reason he missed the girl and with an empty gun used his weapon to hit her.

A gun can have an 'extension' of ten bullets and 25 bullet cases have been found, that's 15 and 10 more. Maybe the French cyclist kept getting in the way and all the bullets were used up, making it necessary for the little girl to be hit on the head by what? the gun itself?
Perhaps it would all have run smoothly if the French cyclist had not appeared so quickly and caused the gun man to increase / delay his task. It seemed to finish up rather bungled if the aim was to take the driver and his family out. He seems to have no compunction in hitting a girl as if to kill her. If the French cyclist had not turned up so soon, perhaps the little girl in the back would have been searched for by the gun man to check that she had been dealt with too. The speed of the 4 by 4 is indicative. Nearly all car traffic takes the road very gently. It winds and bends and has very little protection at the sides with steep drops.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 12.09.12 3:58

The assassin is as yet unresolved and points more towards an assassination rather than a random killer.

I agree with that, and I think that's the general belief by most.
Although that's not the most discrete of location for an assassination I believe the style of execution befits that.
I read the car was apparently visually bullet-ridden that to even attempt to open the door or window risks it falling apart , and that's reason why the first gendarmes who arrived on scene didn't attempt to open it and the little child not found until 8 hours later, apart from the necessity to preserve the scene in situ of course. So I'm a tad surprised the state of the car wasn't apparent to the RAF.

Hopefully the investigators will get to the bottom of this.
Unlike the mccanns case, hampered by the main players themselves, this one if there's no interference from unnecessary quarters hopefully should be cracked soon. It might not be wrong to deduce investigators already knew, or at least have guessed by now, the reason if not cause why he was taken out, but by who, remains to be solved.

I know exactly what those twisting and winding roads with it unseen corners and bends up the the hills are like, and they are not meant for speeding or overtaking even along some stretches so a 4x4 speeding pass hastily would be noticed.

What I find puzzling is: if he was surveilled 24/7 (so to speak) because of his line of work, where were the security guys when that happened. Usually in a closely monitored surveillance even if no human was involved in the surveillance, some other form of tracking is used, like for example a tracing device fitted onto the car. Just thinking aloud.

"Intelligence officers from the British Embassy in Paris are said to have been at the scene of the murder hours after it happened at 4pm (3pm UK time) on Wednesday. They were tipped off by contacts in the French Interior Ministry as soon as the identity of the car's owner was confirmed.

How many "hours" later to be exact.
It would be interesting to know when the French Interior Ministry learn of the man's identity - was it before or after the Gendarmes had accessed into the car more than 8 hours later?

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by russiandoll on 12.09.12 8:48

Will try to find the French newspaper [ one of the quality ones] reporting on this case, quoting the prosecutor as denying rumours that the car was riddled with bullets, also that the security services in the UK had a file on the father of the family.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by bobbin on 12.09.12 9:14

@aiyoyo wrote:
The assassin is as yet unresolved and points more towards an assassination rather than a random killer.

I agree with that, and I think that's the general belief by most.
Although that's not the most discrete of location for an assassination I believe the style of execution befits that.
I read the car was apparently visually bullet-ridden that to even attempt to open the door or window risks it falling apart , and that's reason why the first gendarmes who arrived on scene didn't attempt to open it and the little child not found until 8 hours later, apart from the necessity to preserve the scene in situ of course. So I'm a tad surprised the state of the car wasn't apparent to the RAF.

Hopefully the investigators will get to the bottom of this.
Unlike the mccanns case, hampered by the main players themselves, this one if there's no interference from unnecessary quarters hopefully should be cracked soon. It might not be wrong to deduce investigators already knew, or at least have guessed by now, the reason if not cause why he was taken out, but by who, remains to be solved.

I know exactly what those twisting and winding roads with it unseen corners and bends up the the hills are like, and they are not meant for speeding or overtaking even along some stretches so a 4x4 speeding pass hastily would be noticed.

What I find puzzling is: if he was surveilled 24/7 (so to speak) because of his line of work, where were the security guys when that happened. Usually in a closely monitored surveillance even if no human was involved in the surveillance, some other form of tracking is used, like for example a tracing device fitted onto the car. Just thinking aloud.

"Intelligence officers from the British Embassy in Paris are said to have been at the scene of the murder hours after it happened at 4pm (3pm UK time) on Wednesday. They were tipped off by contacts in the French Interior Ministry as soon as the identity of the car's owner was confirmed.

How many "hours" later to be exact.
It would be interesting to know when the French Interior Ministry learn of the man's identity - was it before or after the Gendarmes had accessed into the car more than 8 hours later?
The car number plate would have been informed to the DVLA straight away by the English police and the identity of the shot man would be known at this point, given of course that the driver and owner were the same man. It would take only 4 hours, if not a bit less, for the police/intelligence officers to be down from Paris.
Just because the newspapers, who sometimes 'make it up as they go along' report one thing or another is not going to be too relevant. The police also hold specific information back or allow journalistic misunderstanding to go on a bit, in order to protect certain things or prevent people from getting wind of the fact that they are under investigation and destroying evidence etc.
I am quite happy to leave an investigation in the hands of competent and determined police/forces.
The time to re-analyse, and pick over in depth, that which is being touted is when, as in the McCann case, glaring lies are being churned out ad nauseam and a cover up at the highest levels, (e.g. Goncalo Amaral being removed) is managed in such a churlish fashion that even a child could see through it all.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 12.09.12 12:21

@bobbin wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
The assassin is as yet unresolved and points more towards an assassination rather than a random killer.

I agree with that, and I think that's the general belief by most.
Although that's not the most discrete of location for an assassination I believe the style of execution befits that.
I read the car was apparently visually bullet-ridden that to even attempt to open the door or window risks it falling apart , and that's reason why the first gendarmes who arrived on scene didn't attempt to open it and the little child not found until 8 hours later, apart from the necessity to preserve the scene in situ of course. So I'm a tad surprised the state of the car wasn't apparent to the RAF.

Hopefully the investigators will get to the bottom of this.
Unlike the mccanns case, hampered by the main players themselves, this one if there's no interference from unnecessary quarters hopefully should be cracked soon. It might not be wrong to deduce investigators already knew, or at least have guessed by now, the reason if not cause why he was taken out, but by who, remains to be solved.

I know exactly what those twisting and winding roads with it unseen corners and bends up the the hills are like, and they are not meant for speeding or overtaking even along some stretches so a 4x4 speeding pass hastily would be noticed.

What I find puzzling is: if he was surveilled 24/7 (so to speak) because of his line of work, where were the security guys when that happened. Usually in a closely monitored surveillance even if no human was involved in the surveillance, some other form of tracking is used, like for example a tracing device fitted onto the car. Just thinking aloud.

"Intelligence officers from the British Embassy in Paris are said to have been at the scene of the murder hours after it happened at 4pm (3pm UK time) on Wednesday. They were tipped off by contacts in the French Interior Ministry as soon as the identity of the car's owner was confirmed.

How many "hours" later to be exact.
It would be interesting to know when the French Interior Ministry learn of the man's identity - was it before or after the Gendarmes had accessed into the car more than 8 hours later?
The car number plate would have been informed to the DVLA straight away by the English police and the identity of the shot man would be known at this point, given of course that the driver and owner were the same man. It would take only 4 hours, if not a bit less, for the police/intelligence officers to be down from Paris.
Just because the newspapers, who sometimes 'make it up as they go along' report one thing or another is not going to be too relevant. The police also hold specific information back or allow journalistic misunderstanding to go on a bit, in order to protect certain things or prevent people from getting wind of the fact that they are under investigation and destroying evidence etc.
I am quite happy to leave an investigation in the hands of competent and determined police/forces.
The time to re-analyse, and pick over in depth, that which is being touted is when, as in the McCann case, glaring lies are being churned out ad nauseam and a cover up at the highest levels, (e.g. Goncalo Amaral being removed) is managed in such a churlish fashion that even a child could see through it all.

I didn't realise he'd driven his UK licensed plate car on holiday.
I'd thought he'd driven a mobile caravan there which was left parked in a campsite, and he'd gone up the hilltop in a hired french reg. car.

I'm aware UK reg car can easily be traced through DVLA by UK Police.
The intriguing question is not how, but when did the Ministère de l'intérieur get to learn of the man's identity?
Although Ministère de l'intérieur has purview over the Gendarmerie, I would not have thought that it be customary for Gendarmes to report investigative process directly to the Interior Ministry.
One would have thought that for practical operation reason since this is a crime involving foreign nationalities Gendarmes investigative process documents are filed not with Local Police Station but rather with Police HQ and not directly to Ministère de l'intérieur,

If report is to be believed that Intelligence Officers from British Embassy were tipped off by the Interior Ministry, then it's reasonable to deduce that Mr Al Hilli's name is either on Gendarmerie HQ's special "security" list, or Interior Ministry "security" list.



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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by bobbin on 12.09.12 13:29

@aiyoyo wrote:
@bobbin wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
The assassin is as yet unresolved and points more towards an assassination rather than a random killer.

I agree with that, and I think that's the general belief by most.
Although that's not the most discrete of location for an assassination I believe the style of execution befits that.
I read the car was apparently visually bullet-ridden that to even attempt to open the door or window risks it falling apart , and that's reason why the first gendarmes who arrived on scene didn't attempt to open it and the little child not found until 8 hours later, apart from the necessity to preserve the scene in situ of course. So I'm a tad surprised the state of the car wasn't apparent to the RAF.

Hopefully the investigators will get to the bottom of this.
Unlike the mccanns case, hampered by the main players themselves, this one if there's no interference from unnecessary quarters hopefully should be cracked soon. It might not be wrong to deduce investigators already knew, or at least have guessed by now, the reason if not cause why he was taken out, but by who, remains to be solved.

I know exactly what those twisting and winding roads with it unseen corners and bends up the the hills are like, and they are not meant for speeding or overtaking even along some stretches so a 4x4 speeding pass hastily would be noticed.

What I find puzzling is: if he was surveilled 24/7 (so to speak) because of his line of work, where were the security guys when that happened. Usually in a closely monitored surveillance even if no human was involved in the surveillance, some other form of tracking is used, like for example a tracing device fitted onto the car. Just thinking aloud.

"Intelligence officers from the British Embassy in Paris are said to have been at the scene of the murder hours after it happened at 4pm (3pm UK time) on Wednesday. They were tipped off by contacts in the French Interior Ministry as soon as the identity of the car's owner was confirmed.

How many "hours" later to be exact.
It would be interesting to know when the French Interior Ministry learn of the man's identity - was it before or after the Gendarmes had accessed into the car more than 8 hours later?
The car number plate would have been informed to the DVLA straight away by the English police and the identity of the shot man would be known at this point, given of course that the driver and owner were the same man. It would take only 4 hours, if not a bit less, for the police/intelligence officers to be down from Paris.
Just because the newspapers, who sometimes 'make it up as they go along' report one thing or another is not going to be too relevant. The police also hold specific information back or allow journalistic misunderstanding to go on a bit, in order to protect certain things or prevent people from getting wind of the fact that they are under investigation and destroying evidence etc.
I am quite happy to leave an investigation in the hands of competent and determined police/forces.
The time to re-analyse, and pick over in depth, that which is being touted is when, as in the McCann case, glaring lies are being churned out ad nauseam and a cover up at the highest levels, (e.g. Goncalo Amaral being removed) is managed in such a churlish fashion that even a child could see through it all.

I didn't realise he'd driven his UK licensed plate car on holiday.
I'd thought he'd driven a mobile caravan there which was left parked in a campsite, and he'd gone up the hilltop in a hired french reg. car.

I'm aware UK reg car can easily be traced through DVLA by UK Police.
The intriguing question is not how, but when did the Ministère de l'intérieur get to learn of the man's identity?
Although Ministère de l'intérieur has purview over the Gendarmerie, I would not have thought that it be customary for Gendarmes to report investigative process directly to the Interior Ministry.
One would have thought that for practical operation reason since this is a crime involving foreign nationalities Gendarmes investigative process documents are filed not with Local Police Station but rather with Police HQ and not directly to Ministère de l'intérieur,

If report is to be believed that Intelligence Officers from British Embassy were tipped off by the Interior Ministry, then it's reasonable to deduce that Mr Al Hilli's name is either on Gendarmerie HQ's special "security" list, or Interior Ministry "security" list.


I agree with you, that once it was noted that the occupants were from Iraq, having sought salvation and integration into the UK, then the whole complexion changed, especially as the family left Iraq in times of political turmoil.
Regarding the car, I didn't realise that you did not think the car to be English.
That is why the English RAF guy spontaneously went to the right-hand driver's door to turn the engine off and how he knew/thought the occupants would be British.
If you look at the photo of the red car in the car park, now with the boot open, you will see that the crazed glass of the UK driver's door has been pushed in a bit lower than the UK passenger window.
It did not take much effort to clear a space to reach the key and the witness took extra special care not to disturb the forensic scene, so unlike in the McCann situation where a whole circus had tramped through the forensic scene before the police were invited to arrive.
That is also why the UK passenger seat, with the child's booster seat in it, would have made it possible for the girl to get out, or be pulled out. The driver's side was more or less trapped by the mud bank.
The French cyclist would have arrived on the little girl's side of the car and he was found just a few feet away.
She had staggered when she was found by the RAF guy, and with 5 spare bullets in the French cyclist's body and two in the head, that is why I think he was shielding the little girl and probably took the bullets meant for her and her younger sister, had the assassin not been distracted and had he had the time to finish his job before having to rush off before he was witnessed by others.
If he had followed the red car up the hill, he would have known what cycists/hikers were on their way and may not have estimated that the French cyclist would travel at such a pace as to overtake the RAF guy who was a few minutes still away from the slaughter.
He might well have thought that he would have enough time to do the job and get away calmly and without being noticed.
This is only guessing, according to how the scene appeared.
Regards, the 'reason' for the slaughter, that now is where the police, security and government departments of both countries will hopefully work together, without cover-up, to find the assassin(s).
There seems to be mixed memory from witnesses regarding whether the 4 by 4 / motorbike had passed by on the way up.
If they didn't, it leaves the question as to how would the assassin(s) know their target would even think to be on that road, in that place at that time.
This therefore leaves the slight question, if a solid cause cannot be found, that it could possibly have been some random/ mad man shooter, just firing off in some frenetic rage. I think a deliberate assassination is more likely but it needs to be established.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 12.09.12 15:51

@bobbin wrote:


I agree with you, that once it was noted that the occupants were from Iraq, having sought salvation and integration into the UK, then the whole complexion changed, especially as the family left Iraq in times of political turmoil.

was referring to the nature of his job as the possible reason he was on a special list, and not because he was Iraqi.
Probably I should have said on "secret service security or surveillance list:", as that would have been probably more accurate.

I don't believe just because you are Arab you are naturally on police special list.
At most known terrorist or suspected terrorist would be on immigration list or some sort of list, but not all arabs are subject to that kind of security merely because of their race.

I believe his execution is related to the nature of his job.
He apparently expressed concerns over security of his work papers before he left for holiday which can only mean he'd some super-secret documents if fallen in the wrong hands could have great consequence for government of one country, which country is anyone's guess.
It is my belief that someone of his calibre working in a sensitive field is watched all the time by secret intelligence service.
Hence the UK intelligence officer showing up on the crime scene only hours after the alarm was raised must be for a good reason, maybe in case he'd work papers with him in the car. You never know..


Regarding the car, I didn't realise that you did not think the car to be English.
That is why the English RAF guy spontaneously went to the right-hand driver's door to turn the engine off and how he knew/thought the occupants would be British.
If you look at the photo of the red car in the car park, now with the boot open, you will see that the crazed glass of the UK driver's door has been pushed in a bit lower than the UK passenger window.
It did not take much effort to clear a space to reach the key and the witness took extra special care not to disturb the forensic scene, so unlike in the McCann situation where a whole circus had tramped through the forensic scene before the police were invited to arrive.
That is also why the UK passenger seat, with the child's booster seat in it, would have made it possible for the girl to get out, or be pulled out. The driver's side was more or less trapped by the mud bank.
The French cyclist would have arrived on the little girl's side of the car and he was found just a few feet away.
She had staggered when she was found by the RAF guy, and with 5 spare bullets in the French cyclist's body and two in the head, that is why I think he was shielding the little girl and probably took the bullets meant for her and her younger sister, had the assassin not been distracted and had he had the time to finish his job before having to rush off before he was witnessed by others.
If he had followed the red car up the hill, he would have known what cycists/hikers were on their way and may not have estimated that the French cyclist would travel at such a pace as to overtake the RAF guy who was a few minutes still away from the slaughter.
He might well have thought that he would have enough time to do the job and get away calmly and without being noticed.
This is only guessing, according to how the scene appeared.
Regards, the 'reason' for the slaughter, that now is where the police, security and government departments of both countries will hopefully work together, without cover-up, to find the assassin(s).
There seems to be mixed memory from witnesses regarding whether the 4 by 4 / motorbike had passed by on the way up.
If they didn't, it leaves the question as to how would the assassin(s) know their target would even think to be on that road, in that place at that time.

Hence my belief his communication and movement was bugged, the execution planned and assassin/s were already waiting for him there Maybe, just maybe, he took his family and children along thinking he was safe especially when children were present. Judging from his concerns over security of documents at his home he might have suspected something un towards was going to happen. .
Sorry my mind is bugged by the RAF who rushed away from the scene. We only have his story and no witness to corroborate it.
Did he rush away to avoid police and press and other witnesses for a reason?

Maybe my fertile imagination is a result of having watched too many crime scene programmes.



This therefore leaves the slight question, if a solid cause cannot be found, that it could possibly have been some random/ mad man shooter, just firing off in some frenetic rage. I think a deliberate assassination is more likely but it needs to be established.


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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Newintown on 13.09.12 14:13

@aiyoyo wrote:
@bobbin wrote:


I agree with you, that once it was noted that the occupants were from Iraq, having sought salvation and integration into the UK, then the whole complexion changed, especially as the family left Iraq in times of political turmoil.

was referring to the nature of his job as the possible reason he was on a special list, and not because he was Iraqi.
Probably I should have said on "secret service security or surveillance list:", as that would have been probably more accurate.

I don't believe just because you are Arab you are naturally on police special list.
At most known terrorist or suspected terrorist would be on immigration list or some sort of list, but not all arabs are subject to that kind of security merely because of their race.

I believe his execution is related to the nature of his job.
He apparently expressed concerns over security of his work papers before he left for holiday which can only mean he'd some super-secret documents if fallen in the wrong hands could have great consequence for government of one country, which country is anyone's guess.
It is my belief that someone of his calibre working in a sensitive field is watched all the time by secret intelligence service.
Hence the UK intelligence officer showing up on the crime scene only hours after the alarm was raised must be for a good reason, maybe in case he'd work papers with him in the car. You never know..


Regarding the car, I didn't realise that you did not think the car to be English.
That is why the English RAF guy spontaneously went to the right-hand driver's door to turn the engine off and how he knew/thought the occupants would be British.
If you look at the photo of the red car in the car park, now with the boot open, you will see that the crazed glass of the UK driver's door has been pushed in a bit lower than the UK passenger window.
It did not take much effort to clear a space to reach the key and the witness took extra special care not to disturb the forensic scene, so unlike in the McCann situation where a whole circus had tramped through the forensic scene before the police were invited to arrive.
That is also why the UK passenger seat, with the child's booster seat in it, would have made it possible for the girl to get out, or be pulled out. The driver's side was more or less trapped by the mud bank.
The French cyclist would have arrived on the little girl's side of the car and he was found just a few feet away.
She had staggered when she was found by the RAF guy, and with 5 spare bullets in the French cyclist's body and two in the head, that is why I think he was shielding the little girl and probably took the bullets meant for her and her younger sister, had the assassin not been distracted and had he had the time to finish his job before having to rush off before he was witnessed by others.
If he had followed the red car up the hill, he would have known what cycists/hikers were on their way and may not have estimated that the French cyclist would travel at such a pace as to overtake the RAF guy who was a few minutes still away from the slaughter.
He might well have thought that he would have enough time to do the job and get away calmly and without being noticed.
This is only guessing, according to how the scene appeared.
Regards, the 'reason' for the slaughter, that now is where the police, security and government departments of both countries will hopefully work together, without cover-up, to find the assassin(s).
There seems to be mixed memory from witnesses regarding whether the 4 by 4 / motorbike had passed by on the way up.
If they didn't, it leaves the question as to how would the assassin(s) know their target would even think to be on that road, in that place at that time.

Hence my belief his communication and movement was bugged, the execution planned and assassin/s were already waiting for him there Maybe, just maybe, he took his family and children along thinking he was safe especially when children were present. Judging from his concerns over security of documents at his home he might have suspected something un towards was going to happen. .
Sorry my mind is bugged by the RAF who rushed away from the scene. We only have his story and no witness to corroborate it.
Did he rush away to avoid police and press and other witnesses for a reason?

Maybe my fertile imagination is a result of having watched too many crime scene programmes.



This therefore leaves the slight question, if a solid cause cannot be found, that it could possibly have been some random/ mad man shooter, just firing off in some frenetic rage. I think a deliberate assassination is more likely but it needs to be established.


With regard to the sentence in blue underlined -

Could it be that the French cyclist, Sylvian Mollier, was part of the surveillance team, and was following the family in their car, reporting back to other intelligence officers on where the family was going and was taken by surprise by the shooting which had just occurred. His communcations to other intelligence officers would have therefore come to an abrupt end. It seems a hugh coincidence that he was in the same line of work, but no doubt his mobile phone, if he had one, would be checked by police for contact details.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by bobbin on 13.09.12 15:59

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19587311

Can this now put minds at rest regarding the RAF cyclist. Ref, Sylvain, he cycled everyday and had done since a child.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by bobbin on 13.09.12 19:36

@bobbin wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19587311

Can this now put minds at rest regarding the RAF cyclist. Ref, Sylvain, he cycled everyday and had done since a child.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19587272

This is now a fuller account, explaining why the ex RAF witness had to leave the little girl to go and get help.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 13.09.12 22:11

I just read that the grandmother's son was a "strange" one, a schizophrenic ... and hasn't been traced yet .http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2012/09/13/01016-20120913ARTFIG00746-tuerie-de-haute-savoie-l-autre-piste-familiale.php

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 13.09.12 22:19

I can't get the link to work. There was a story about the son online this morning - I'm almost sure it was from The Guardian - alleging that he was dangerous and had threatened to kill his family but it's been whooshed very quickly.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by jd on 14.09.12 0:18

A French prosecutor has said the motive has its "origins" in the UK.

As also reported on Sky News, the French say the answer "lies in the UK" and this "was not a normal family on a normal holiday"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19587311


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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 14.09.12 5:44

I am suitably intrigued by report stating "this was not a normal family on a normal holiday"

and then this:

On Wednesday, Mr Maillaud said 40 French police officers were working on the investigation and probing Mr al-Hilli's work as an engineer, his family connections and possible links within Iraq.

The next thing one knows, they are going to utter the *T* word sooner than we expect.

The report that there's a *schizophrenic* from grandma's side is nothing more than just journalist nosing around.
A schizophrenia harms themselves rather than harms others.
Besides, family revenge is *crime of passion* usually committed in heated fury on spur of moments.
The location, manner of execution (cold and neat), armed with plenty ammunition are not signs of family vengeance.

It's a more common trait of psychopath (entirely different from schizophrenic) to kill senselessly and randomly.
Since French prosecutor must have a good basis for believing the *the cause* has its origins in UK, that practically rule out lone psychopath
Not family related (unlikely), not random psychopath, what else is there really? Related to his work or to his religion?

There's no clear report which field he was working in.
Report has him down as engineer in Aviation and Aerospace Industry.
It also has him as working for a UK-based company that was working on a *secret contract* for one of Europe's biggest Defence companies.
Those two are completely different industry altogether.

No matter which is correct, the crux of it lies with his work, combined that with his expressed fear over security of his papers, the answers lie therein.

Whatever he was doing in Chevaline. what is clear is he was ambushed by professional hit men or secret service.
If the latter then the truth may never emerge, and the *T* word if not the reason behind may be used as excuse if it turns out to be secret agents doing and to be covered up.
On verra.





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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 14.09.12 9:11

@jd wrote:A French prosecutor has said the motive has its "origins" in the UK.

As also reported on Sky News, the French say the answer "lies in the UK" and this "was not a normal family on a normal holiday"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19587311


That certainly also applies to another mystery that's been going on for more than five years doesn't it?

It is true that most people with mental illness are a danger only to themselves but there is inevitably the odd occasion when they do attack others.

I don't personally think that is the solution to this case.

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by russiandoll on 14.09.12 9:26

I am very impressed by this public prosecutor and by the fact that the French authorities are so firmly convinced of only 3 lines of inquiry needing investigation......family, work, ties to Iraq. He totally ruled out car-jacking and random violence. If they are as methodical as they appear to have been so far, with collaboration from the UK they hopefully will be able to narrow down the most probable hypothesis and motive .......let's hope the [yet another] former expert dragged on to Sky news yesterday is wrong and this case will not be solved because there is next to no clarity about motive.
I was quite surprised, not sure that I should have been, to hear the Sky presenter asking if M. Maillaud was the French equivalent of the lead detective. There was a brief response of no, with a bit of explanation that he is more like a person from the British CPS. No explanation of the fact that he is a top-notch lawyer, has been a judge; it would have taken a few minutes to explain that despite working alongside the police , the public prosecutor is not a police officer but a member of the judiciary.
[ btw I recommend looking at the fantastic French drama series Spiral to see how the procureur works in police investigations. It is not for the faint- hearted, dealing with the dark side of Paris, the language is strong and images of crime are graphic, but it is realistic and along with the Danish drama The Killing, the best crime drama in years on tv imo].


The public prosecutor, the procureur, is central to the functioning of
the French criminal process—from investigation and prosecution through to
case disposition—and her role continues to grow. Like so many other
jurisdictions, alongside a range of expedited trial procedures and
alternatives to prosecution, France has expanded the function of the
prosecutor in order to reduce the delay and expense associated with an ever increasing
criminal caseload. The result has been a shift of power away
from the trial judge and the juge d’instruction [ a member of the French judiciary whose role is to supervise
criminal investigations ] in favor of the procureur,
giving her significant dispositive powers: She is responsible for the
decision in nearly half of all criminal cases.
As a magistrat, the procureur is considered a judicial authority in
French law, but the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) Grand
Chamber decision in the case of Medvedyev v. France has recently put this
authority in doubt. Although the court does not attack the status of the
prosecutor directly, the very specific terms of the court’s endorsement of
the judicial status of the juge d’instruction emphasize the importance of a
judge’s independence from the executive and from the case parties, both of
which are highly contested in relation to the procureur. French criminal
justice reflects an essentially judge-centered model with inquisitorial roots,
in which the defense in particular plays a subsidiary role. The judicial
status of the person conducting or supervising the criminal investigation, in
this case the prosecutor, is therefore crucial.

The French system is not adversarial as in the UK, but inquisitorial.

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contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
unrealistic.
~John F. Kennedy


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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 17.09.12 13:12

By Victoria Ward9:44AM BST 17 Sep 2012
Lt Colonel Benedict Vinnemann, who is leading the police inquiry, revealed he was considering the possibility Sylvain Mollier, the cyclist, was the real target. He was buried yesterday.
It had previously been suggested that Mr Mollier was killed because he had interrupted the killing of Saad al-Hilli, his wife and mother-in-law by a hitman.
But Lt Col Vinneman said: "Was the al-Hilli family the main target? Was it not the cyclist? Only ongoing work on the scene can answer this question clearly.
"We're talking about someone whom everybody says was a gentleman, but who's to say he did not lead a double life?"
French police were yesterday accused of “playing politics” over the Alps massacre by asserting that the origins of the case lie in the UK.
RELATED ARTICLES
Girl in Alps attack only saw one gunman 14 Sep 2012
Gun in Annecy killing may be connected to the region 16 Sep 2012
France shooting: police say victims were shot twice in the head 08 Sep 2012
Prosecutor: Alps massacre had 'origins in UK' 13 Sep 2012
Brian Paddick, the former Metropolitan Police Deputy Assistant Commissioner, said that unless there was clear evidence that ruled out the other theories, it was “dangerous” to switch the focus of the investigation to this country.
“It smacked to me of more of a political decision than a professional police one,” he said.
“It was as if they did not want the reputation of France, and particularly this picturesque tourist spot, damaged by the suggestion that this could be anything to do with the French police or people in that area.”
French police investigating the deaths of Saad al-Hilli, 50, his wife Iqbal, 47, her mother Suhaila al-Allaf, 74, and a passing French cyclist in Annecy, south-eastern France, have stated that they are working on three lines of inquiry; a bitter family feud over inheritance, Mr-al-Hilli’s work as an aeronautic engineer and his Iraqi origins.
It emerged yesterday that the French investigation is being scaled back, with many of the original 120 gendarmes working on the case returning to normal duties after Eric Maillard, the chief prosecutor in Annecy, said that he was convinced the answer to the mystery lay in the UK.
Mr Paddick added: “When you do not have any clear front runner in terms of theories, you need to pursue each of the potential explanations relentlessly.”
DCI Colin Sutton, a retired detective who investigated the Levi Bellfield murders, suggested that such an approach could be short-sighted unless there was specific evidence to back it up, although he noted that the French police were unlikely to divulge too much detail about their progress.
“It seems (Mr Maillard) may have closed his mind completely to the case having its roots in France,” he said. “Unless they have any evidence to base that on, it seems a little dangerous to me.”
Mr Mollier worked for Cezus, a subsidiary of the Areva Group, specialising in zirconium metalworking for nuclear fuel containers.
The victims are believed to have been shot with a Luger P08, a distinctive weapon which was standard issue to the Swiss army and which fires distinctive 7.65mm calibre bullets.
The weapon has a capacity of eight rounds meaning that a lone gunman, who fired around 25 bullets during the massacre, would have used more than three magazines.

Whoever this Lt Colonel Benedict Vinnemann is, must be lacking in the brain department.


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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by PeterMac on 17.09.12 14:35

But Paddick is talking sense, about this and the other famous enquiry.
Brian Paddick, the former Metropolitan Police Deputy Assistant Commissioner, said that unless there was clear evidence that ruled out the other theories, it was “dangerous” to switch the focus of the investigation to this country.
. . .
Mr Paddick added: “When you do not have any clear front runner in terms of theories, you need to pursue each of the potential explanations relentlessly.”
QUITE !!

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by aiyoyo on 18.09.12 7:16

But Vinnemann was saying the French cyclist could be the real target. Come on!
.
We're talking about an accident on a hill - cliff and all- many ways to take out a cyclist (especially from a car) along the route without the excessive drama of wasting an entire innocent family.



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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 27.10.12 21:53

What on earth is this all about, tomorrows paper......



The Mail On Sunday reports on new allegations in the investigation into the death of a British engineer, his wife and her mother in the Alps last month

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Re: Preserve the Crime Scene ! Alps Murders

Post by Guest on 28.10.12 10:47

I've just read that police has been able to reconstruct the crime and crime scene more or less in the sense that
- the car was stuck in the soft verge of the roadside
- the Brit who was first on the crime scene moved the bodies of the French cyclist and the wounded, yet living daughter, as he was afraid, he says, that the car might start driving as yet and run them over
- the weapon used was a a Swiss army pistol from the 20's or 30's; not something a professional hitman would use
- they have not been able to establish in which order people were killed, could have been the cyclist first and the others later or the other way around
- the perpetrator hit the girl with the weapon over the head when he'd run out of bullets and fled

I'll have a look, if this has been picked up by any English language paper.

ETA found an article in yesterday's Mirror: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-saad-al-hillis-1403152

ETA 2 a n hour ago a French article quotes lieutenant-colonel Benoît Vinnemann, who leads the investigation, who contradicts whatever French paper Le Monde has said. No time for translation, but the resume is "Bullsh*t" ...
http://www.20minutes.fr/ledirect/1031154/tuerie-chevaline-affirmations-monde-dementies-enqueteurs

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