The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hi,

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and start chatting with us!

Enjoy your day,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

Missing Ruth & José are dead

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by PeterMac on 28.08.12 9:20

@sharonl wrote:Not an abducted child case, I admit, but does the name EUGENE ZAPATA ring a bell with anyone? Dr Kate McCcann actually uses the case to support her arguments in her book!
No, but a missing person case. And the dogs alerted decades after the death. Needs to go on the list with a couple of qualifying words.
And thank for Keisha, I'll find the reference.

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Another missing child

Post by Guest on 28.08.12 10:36

I'll mention Isabel Celis though she too hasn't been found.

Here's an interesting blog which I think will ring bells about another case.......

http://www.seamusoriley.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/isabel-celis-sexual-abuse-motive.html

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by Guest on 28.08.12 10:42

Jean wrote:I'll mention Isabel Celis though she too hasn't been found.

Here's an interesting blog which I think will ring bells about another case.......

http://www.seamusoriley.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/isabel-celis-sexual-abuse-motive.html

Yes, I mentioned her on the first page of this thread Jean........

candyfloss wrote:This case of Isabel Celis is similar to Madeleine case, in that the parents claim she was taken from her bedroom and the window open and screen pushed aside, I cannot find any news for her after May 2012, so I presume she is still missing................

[snipped from article]

Authorities have been searching for Isabel since her father reported her missing April 21. Family members have said they last saw her in her bedroom the night before. A window was later found open with the screen pushed aside.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2146168/Isabel-Mercedes-Celis-missing-Girls-family-investigated-child-welfare.html#ixzz24kzfDu7h


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by sweeneytodd on 28.08.12 10:57

I think in the cases of missing children....always look at the family first

sweeneytodd

Posts : 4
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-08-27
Location : The Frozen North

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by jozi on 28.08.12 11:03

@Mumbles wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:Miss Match reported this on Anorak, 11 January 2008:


Miss Match Says:

January 11th, 2008 at 5:29 pm

I went to the dentist in Italy for a check up yesterday and my dentist asked me about this case, possibly because I am British. He said that it is similar to a recent case in Italy. A mother battered her toddler to death, said she went out, leaving him sleeping in the house, whilst she took the other child to the bus stop and them claimed that someone had entered the house, which was open by the way, she claimed, and killed her child. The Italian mother was on TV always perfectly presented and groomed and never looked distressed.

She just got convicted for killing the child. Can’t remember the mother’s name but will have a look to see if I can find anything. There are quite a few similarities in the case…Her husband, family and friends swear she is innocent too!


It was known as the Cogne case. The mother was Anna Maria Franzoni and the child was called Samuele Lorenzi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogne_homicide
o
This is almost a mirror image of another case we know ? Its uncanny !!!

jozi

Posts : 710
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2012-05-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by Guest on 28.08.12 11:06

Sorry Candyfloss, I did look back but missed your posting.

My link about not searching and making unnecessary (but revealing) comments is so relevant elsewhere.

There's also this case where it's alleged that a neighbour was responsible.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/10/sierra-newbold-terry-lee-black_n_1663424.html

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by Guest on 28.08.12 12:01

@sweeneytodd wrote:I think in the cases of missing children....always look at the family first
***
And if in doubt, think murder ...

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by Juulcy on 29.08.12 8:11

http://listverse.com/2011/07/11/10-tragic-cases-of-missing-children/

Here are several more, bizar stories, like a true kidnap by north korea for espionage. But others are total mysteries and one very similar to Madeleine's disapearance.

Juulcy

Posts : 151
Reputation : 17
Join date : 2011-07-04
Location : Netherlands

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by EJW on 29.08.12 21:05

Another missing little girl killed by a teenage family friend, being looked after by her grandmother while her mother worked in a nightclub

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2194555/Pictured-Teen-murdered-year-old-Isabella-stuffed-body-garbage-streets-away-grandmothers-home.html

EJW

Posts : 183
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-01-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by EJW on 29.08.12 21:07

A good website on missing children but mostly american missing children cases.

http://pleasehelpthesemissingchildren.blogspot.co.uk/

EJW

Posts : 183
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-01-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by EJW on 29.08.12 21:15

And another terrible case, mother is the main suspect after claiming her daughter either walked away through an open door or was abducted.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/12/jhessye_shockley_thrown_in_tem.php

EJW

Posts : 183
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-01-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by EJW on 29.08.12 21:25

Kyron Horman, last seen being dropped off at school by his stepmother, his father is now divorcing the stepmother and has a preventative order against her from approaching him and his family. She again is the primary suspect. As Petermac has reiterated, don't look far from home. IMO When you see all these cases together on the same page it beggars belief that KM and GM are treated the way they are. Missing persons ambassador... it makes my blood run cold. How any one can say the PJ did a bad job, are completely ignorant of what is firm evidence, that the immediate family and friends should always be the main focus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Kyron_Horman

EJW

Posts : 183
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-01-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by aiyoyo on 30.08.12 7:08

@EJW wrote: As Petermac has reiterated, don't look far from home.

Both experienced investigators, yet Redwood is singing a different tune from PM.
The contrast in thinking between experienced investigators couldn't be any more stark than this -- "think murder vs think abduction by stranger."

Anyway is his comment "she may be alive or she may be alive, sadly" befitting the sign of an experienced investigator?
Come on, any school age child can tell him that for nothing.


aiyoyo

Posts : 9611
Reputation : 318
Join date : 2009-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by PeterMac on 31.08.12 13:55

Just back to the thread for a moment, if I may.
Spanish paper yesterday had more of the details.
The remain on the bonfire were discovered a year ago. The father said he had burned a lot of his wife's clothes, because they were divorcing, and at the same time had got rid of lots of stuff from his days as a veterinary student. Hence the fragments of bones.
Police then followed up the story of the abduction.
The wife has spent a long time persuading the police to look again at the stuff from the bonfire, which they have now done. Part of the description is the way in which everything was properly packaged in sealed plastic bags and properly labelled.
Amongst the ash and bits of totally unidentifiable bits of bone are the heads of two femurs, some ribs, part of a tibia, and a lump of ileum. Also a piece of the parietal bone, 4 cm square. All of this is of very small size, and there are nine little teeth, which were protected from the intense heat by the jaw bones. The teeth can be dated to a very exact age, 6 years and 80 days, plus or minus 43 days and exactly match those of one of the children.
Neighbours spoke of strange 'barbecue' smell from the estate, and the video camera shows him leaving in his car.
Then his phone is switched on, and he tells the family he has "lost the children" in the park. Police were told and were astonished at how calm his was. From the first moment they suspected that the children had never been to the park.
So now they have the bodies and justice can begin to be done.

Text book, really.

From El Pais, 30 Agosto, p 14

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by tigger on 31.08.12 14:39

Burning a human body completely takes absolutely ages and lots of fuel. Which is why a lot of Bronze Age cremations still have bone fragments in the pots.

The only writer I've ever come across who described the difficult process of carrying, burying and burning human bodies was Patricia Highsmith.
Especially good in 'Ripley underground'.

Ghastly horrible narcissist this man. I can't believe that you would kill your children to hurt your partner. Yet it happens a lot. Also the type of man who can't admit failure and rather kills his whole family and then himself, as happened in Shropshire last year. He was only going bankrupt for goodness sakes, not losing both his legs or his wife to a young lover!


____________________
Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate.

tigger

Posts : 8112
Reputation : 24
Join date : 2011-07-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by PeterMac on 16.09.12 17:35

OP today
Jose Breton calls toxicology reports ‘a lie’
SEPTEMBER 16, 2012 AT 1:00 PM • LAST EDITED: SEPTEMBER 16, 2012 AT 7:48 AM

• THE INVESTIGATION HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR 11 MONTHS
JOSE Breton, father of missing children Ruth and Jose, has said that the burnt remains found on their grandfather’s estate near Cordoba are from animals.
Breton, who has been in custody since October 2011, told judge Luis Rodriguez Laize that he remembers burning a sheep’s head and the bodies of a dog and cat at the bonfire and the remains belong to them.
While police had originally claimed they belonged to an animal, recent reports commissioned by the government have ruled the teeth and bones are those of two young children aged two and six.
The prosecuting lawyer representing Ruth Ortiz, the children’s mother, said that Breton refused to accept the new toxicology reports.
“He didn’t say anything, just that it is a lie. He denies the evidence and says we are all crazy apart from him,” he said.
Breton’s mobile phone activity is currently undergoing thorough investigation: “We expect much more and offer clues about what happened that day,” added the prosecution.
So, to sum up, refuse to accept the forensic evidence. Always a good start.
But interesting about the mobile phone records, still there a year later !

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by Nina on 16.09.12 20:53

@PeterMac wrote:OP today
Jose Breton calls toxicology reports ‘a lie’
SEPTEMBER 16, 2012 AT 1:00 PM • LAST EDITED: SEPTEMBER 16, 2012 AT 7:48 AM

• THE INVESTIGATION HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR 11 MONTHS
JOSE Breton, father of missing children Ruth and Jose, has said that the burnt remains found on their grandfather’s estate near Cordoba are from animals.
Breton, who has been in custody since October 2011, told judge Luis Rodriguez Laize that he remembers burning a sheep’s head and the bodies of a dog and cat at the bonfire and the remains belong to them.
While police had originally claimed they belonged to an animal, recent reports commissioned by the government have ruled the teeth and bones are those of two young children aged two and six.
The prosecuting lawyer representing Ruth Ortiz, the children’s mother, said that Breton refused to accept the new toxicology reports.
“He didn’t say anything, just that it is a lie. He denies the evidence and says we are all crazy apart from him,” he said.
Breton’s mobile phone activity is currently undergoing thorough investigation: “We expect much more and offer clues about what happened that day,” added the prosecution.
So, to sum up, refuse to accept the forensic evidence. Always a good start.
But interesting about the mobile phone records, still there a year later !

As though they would have cremated a cat, a dog and a sheep. In my experience of living in the heart of rural Spain any dead animal is just left for the animals,birds and insects to do their job of disposing of the body.

____________________
Not one more cent from me.

Nina

Posts : 2627
Reputation : 215
Join date : 2011-06-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by PeterMac on 16.09.12 23:17

Quite so. Among our friends here, when a horse is deemed to be a the end of its natural life it is taken to the appointed place and shot.
All very calm and controlled, with the owner present.
It is then opened so that the vultures can make a start before it begins to rot.
On the appointed day I want to be a Zoroastrian, and have my own body left out for the vultures.

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by Guest on 18.06.13 22:02

Just giving this topic a bump as the trial has now started.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Missing Ruth & José are dead

Post by PeterMac on 18.06.13 22:40

http://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/22914/bretns-trial-begins-jury-warned-not-to-be-influenced-by-media-coverage


Bretón's trial begins; jury warned 'not to be influenced by media coverage' 
By: thinkSPAIN , Tuesday, June 18, 2013 
A CÓRDOBA man charged with the murder of his two small children started his trial yesterday (Monday) amid mass media coverage, and his fate will be decided by a public jury of seven women and four men.
They will be led by nine legal experts – seven women and two men – and two stand-in advisors in case of absence, who are both men.
In addition, 46 forensic detectives and 98 witnesses will be called upon to give evidence, and the accused faces up to 40 years in jail if found guilty.
Prosecutor María Ángeles Rojas, specialist in domestic and family violence, has stressed to the jury that they must not allow their decision to be influenced by the public hysteria and sensational press headlines which have been prolific since the disappearance of six-year-old Ruth and José, two, on October 8, 2011, and to rid themselves of any pre-conceived ideas.
But she says she is 'in no doubt' José Bretón killed his children 'in the cruellest way possible' and that he burnt their bodies on a bonfire deliberately built to reach an extreme temperature and destroy the evidence.
Rojas also warned the jury that what they would hear from the accused when he testifies today will be 'a fairy story invented by him' and 'pure fantasy'.
She says the defence still considers Bretón's own version of events – that the children went missing in the Cruz Conde Park in Córdoba – is true and that 'despite proof', believes that the bones found in the remains of the fire were not those of the little girl and boy.
Solicitor María del Reposo Carrero, acting for the children's mother – who has also brought charges in her own name as well as those brought by the State – describes the alleged murder as 'an atrocity' of the first degree and that she has always struggled with the idea that 'anyone would be capable of murdering their own children'.
“This is not a case of a man who lost control of himself and went crazy. This was not an act of madness or impulse, nor fear, nor self-defence, nor any other circumstance humanly comprehensible – we are in the presence of a very evil person,” Carrero stated.
She considers that the 'funeral pyre' Bretón built in his parents' orchard at their house in Las Quemadillas (Córdoba) was also aimed at his ex-wife and mother of his children, Ruth Ortiz.
They were in the process of separating and Bretón had the children, who lived in Huelva with their mother, for the weekend, and on the day they went missing he tried to call her three times – but she did not pick up the phone.
Bretón's solicitor José María Sánchez de Puerta says his client has been 'crucified' from the start and 'condemned by public opinion', being called 'Satan' and 'a demon', but that he was 'not like that'.
Sánchez de Puerta says he has often seen the accused crying, that he 'constantly asks if anyone knows anything about where his children are' and that he has 'never spoken of them in the past tense, only ever in the present'.
The defence says Bretón 'still believes Ruth and José are alive' and that it is not known for certain if they are dead and if so, how they died, meaning it is 'reckless' to paint him as a cold-blooded murderer.
After Ruth and José were reported missing by Bretón – who is said to have been 'far too calm and matter-of-fact' when he alerted police of their 'disappearance' – their mother suspected her ex-husband had killed them and directed officers to their paternal grandparents' orchard.
A bonfire had been built using olive logs, which burn well, and large quantities of diesel and highly-combustible construction waste, in a makeshift brick 'kiln' with a metal table-top over it.
This had the effect of raising the temperature to between 800ºC and 1,200ºC, as hot as a crematorium, thus destroying the bodies completely.
As a result, forensics were unable to extract DNA from the bones they found.
Police initially ruled out that the children had been burnt on the fire after a forensic claimed the bones were those of rodents, but Ruth Ortiz employed two private forensic detectives who said the remains corresponded with human children – one of whom was female and aged around six-and-a-quarter.
A total of five legal medicine and anthropology experts have examined the bones, and four of them came to the latter conclusion.
Whilst Ortiz's lawyer believes Bretón also intended to kill his ex-wife and burn her remains on the same fire, Bretón continues to deny the killing and urges authorities to keep up the search for the children, apparently believing them to be alive.
If the bones are indeed those of Ruth and José, it is not clear how they died and whether they were still alive when they were placed on the fire.

____________________


PeterMac
Researcher

Posts : 10170
Reputation : 143
Join date : 2010-12-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum