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MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead - Page 1 Mm11

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MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead - Page 1 Mm11

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Post by aiyoyo 29.08.12 16:20

Lane's attorney, Terry Johnson, contends Lane did "spank" the child with the stick, but that there was no evidence of child abuse or murder since the girl's whereabouts is unknown.

Ha! did spank = no evidence of child abuse!!! Some attorney eh !
Is Terry Johnson thick or perverting course of justice when he made a stupid self defeating statement like that?

Lane's girlfriend statement that he spanked the child then carried a silence child covered in a blanket away is very powerful evidence which neither the prosecutor or judge can ignore, that the child could already be dead and he took her away for burial.

The circumstantial evidence is very strong against Lane, coupled that with the Morse markings only one conclusion is inevitable.


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Post by aiyoyo 29.08.12 16:46

ShuBob wrote:What if the lawyer who tried to prevent Grime's testimony in court resorts to deperate measures and mentions the McCann case during the trial saying Grime and his dogs have been discredited even by British police giving the example of Redwood recently claiming Maddie may still be alive to support the claim? Even if the result will be to try to undermine Grime and cadaver dogs, I can't see the McCanns being happy about being dragged into such a case IF this happens.

If the lawyer knew about mccanns' discrediting the dog tactics, he should also have known they discredited the dogs in Eugene Zapata's case and look what happened? Unless the lawyer is asking for trouble for himself I doubt he would mention the mccanns, but you never know, because even attorney when desperate can commit some silly mistakes as under estimating Prosecutors and Judge's intelligence.


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Post by ShuBob 29.08.12 17:06

aiyoyo wrote:
ShuBob wrote:What if the lawyer who tried to prevent Grime's testimony in court resorts to deperate measures and mentions the McCann case during the trial saying Grime and his dogs have been discredited even by British police giving the example of Redwood recently claiming Maddie may still be alive to support the claim? Even if the result will be to try to undermine Grime and cadaver dogs, I can't see the McCanns being happy about being dragged into such a case IF this happens.

If the lawyer knew about mccanns' discrediting the dog tactics, he should also have known they discredited the dogs in Eugene Zapata's case and look what happened? Unless the lawyer is asking for trouble for himself I doubt he would mention the mccanns, but you never know, because even attorney when desperate can commit some silly mistakes as under estimating Prosecutors and Judge's intelligence.

It will be an act of pure desperation. Just take Kate McCann, for example. She continued to reference the Zapata and Jersey home cases long after it had been conclusively proven that the dogs were right in both cases. This, from a woman embroiled in multiple legal cases where the dogs evidence is used in argument. One has to ask why their numerous very expensive legal counsel didn't rein her in. One suspects there is a method to the apparent madness.
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Post by PeterMac 29.08.12 17:15

I think they are simply trapped. They cannot advert to the possibility that the dogs are correct. If they did their entire edifice would fall.
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Post by ShuBob 29.08.12 17:20

But why not just stop mentioning the dogs? Why reference cases where the dogs' abilities are proven? Not sure if it's true as I haven't read it but I hear Kate even mentions the Zapata case in her book. It doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by PeterMac 29.08.12 17:32

From the book. Kate quotes from the lawyer
The most critical question relating to the use of the dog
alerts as evidence is how likely is the dog’s alert to be
correct. In this regard, the only testing of these handler
and dog teams recorded an abysmal performance.
Here ‘the basis’ for the possible past presence of
human remains is that there is a 20 or 40 per cent
chance that a dog’s ‘alert’ was correct. In other words,
with respect to residual odour, the dog-handler teams
performed significantly worse than if the handlers had
simply flipped a coin to speculate as to the presence
of residual odour at each location.
State of Wisconsin v. Zapata, 2006 CF 1996 – defendant supplemental memorandum


Unfortunately for her he subsequently confessed, and showed that the dog was 100% correct.

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Post by ShuBob 29.08.12 17:38

This is precisely my point- he had ALREADY confessed BEFORE she wrote the book. So why include it?
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Post by aiyoyo 29.08.12 17:42

She continues to reference Zapata and Jersey home cases because her bewk is aimed at ignorant joe public who hasn't followed up the those cases to know she's talking from her derriere.

She's banking on no one will call her bluff because they don't know any better. Gullible people do take what they read at face value, sadly.
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Post by ShuBob 29.08.12 17:52

aiyoyo wrote:She continues to reference Zapata and Jersey home cases because her bewk is aimed at ignorant joe public who hasn't followed up the those cases to know she's talking from her derriere.

She's banking on no one will call her bluff because they don't know any better. Gullible people do take what they read at face value, sadly.

Aiyoyo, but doesn't her book become a legal document in court cases such as the ones against Amaral and Tony? It's one thing relying on the ignorance of the great unwashed but quite another when you're embroiled in legal cases where the dogs evidence is a factor. She really didn't need to include that case in her book over years after he'd confessed.....unless she had to?
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Post by Guest 29.08.12 17:56

@ aiyoyo
It's indeed pure manipulation of the masses. Just like she said/wrote that after 30 days dogs wouldn't be able to smell anything anymore. Whereas "everybody else" knows that cadaver is a smell, which doesn't go away and ... that Grimes did a test with Eddie with sand in which bones of a 2,000 year-old mummy had lain, which was then put on a sand beach and ... he found it :-)
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Post by jd 29.08.12 18:14

I am really glad of the references to Zapata and Jersey home cases in the kate mccann bewk. They are going to come back and bite her one day soon. I for one am not complaining about it, nor care why it is in the bewk....It is and its an own goal for her and another notch in exposing the mccanns scam
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Post by sami 29.08.12 18:22

Châtelaine wrote:@ aiyoyo
It's indeed pure manipulation of the masses. Just like she said/wrote that after 30 days dogs wouldn't be able to smell anything anymore. Whereas "everybody else" knows that cadaver is a smell, which doesn't go away and ... that Grimes did a test with Eddie with sand in which bones of a 2,000 year-old mummy had lain, which was then put on a sand beach and ... he found it :-)


This is a good example of why I cannot figure out if Healy and McCann are just plain stupid or if indeed McCann is being clever and using his "confusion is good" tactic. Did he specifically refer to Mr Grimes dogs ? I am not so sure he did.

The odour a tracker dog looks for will disappear after a reasonably short period of time as far as I am aware, i.e., the tracker dogs used to scent the towel who gave up at the Baptista supermarket. Scent from a live person does not remain in the atmosphere for a long period of time. The cadaver dogs as we all know are a different breed entirely and cadaver will remain as you say for years. Now is this the McCanns being pure thick or are they being deliberately vague and just referring to "dogs".

In the same way McCann leads us to believe they asked for the dogs - was it the EVRD or the tracker dogs they asked for ? If indeed it was Eddie and Keela, they must have had some faith in their capabilities, until such time as they alerted that is. Again though, I think it was the tracker dogs they specifically requested but i can only recall McCann referring to asking for the "dogs" to be brought in and not specifically Eddie and Keela.
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Post by ShuBob 29.08.12 18:44

Châtelaine wrote:@ aiyoyo
It's indeed pure manipulation of the masses. Just like she said/wrote that after 30 days dogs wouldn't be able to smell anything anymore. Whereas "everybody else" knows that cadaver is a smell, which doesn't go away and ... that Grimes did a test with Eddie with sand in which bones of a 2,000 year-old mummy had lain, which was then put on a sand beach and ... he found it :-)

Including Kate herself, I suspect.

I wonder if she's gearing herself for some sort of selective insanity plea. Nothing she does makes sense to me. Unraveling her thought process may be one step towards finding the truth. She doesn't come across as one who will confess to any wrongdoing under any circumstance.
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Post by ShuBob 29.08.12 18:50

Sami, regardless of the speciality of the dogs the couple asked for, it would mean they had a level of faith in the ability of police dogs. What evidence do they have that a certain speciality of dog is more reliable than another e.g. is there evidence that tracker dogs are better at their job than cadaver dogs? The McCanns' position on this is untenable IMO and I continue to wonder why they went down that road to start with.
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Post by jd 29.08.12 19:10

Dogs are trained to alert to what they are specifically trained to do & only what they are specifically trained to do...A tracker dog is different to a cavader dog as to a blood dog. As in the Tia case, a tracker dog will not alert to cavader as it is not trained for the smell, and you can't have a word with it either to alert to anything else that its not trained for just incase! Its not a human

Dogs have a far far superior sense of smell than humans & 2 air passages in its nose, which most humans do not understand about
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Post by sami 29.08.12 19:34

ShuBob wrote:Sami, regardless of the speciality of the dogs the couple asked for, it would mean they had a level of faith in the ability of police dogs. What evidence do they have that a certain speciality of dog is more reliable than another e.g. is there evidence that tracker dogs are better at their job than cadaver dogs? The McCanns' position on this is untenable IMO and I continue to wonder why they went down that road to start with.


I understand and agree with the point you are making. But McCann has already agreed that there was evidence of some description found in the boot of the scenic, given the lengthy explanations he has gone to about dirty nappies, rotten meat etc. This is surely an admission that the dogs were correct in finding material that required testing, therefore it is only the test results he is disputing. To my mind, he has got to be in agreement with the fact that the dogs were brought to that car, they alerted to the boot and the forensic guys subsequently found samples. Dogs job is done. They alerted, material for testing was found, the dogs were 100% right. It is not their job to tell us how, why and who the materials came from. McCann seems to have over looked that.

However, when they sit on chat show sofas doing their pretendy search thing, they make throw away remarks about dogs being unreliable and hope that unsuspecting members of the public will whip out their cheque books and not ask questions.

In my mind Healy's books are nothing more than an attempt to explain away certain important issues that may crop up in the future or to gloss over very specific and important issues, such as the dogs, and hope that they can continue to fool at least some of the people some of the time.

I agree with you, they are foolish to continue to debate this topic and others, but this one in particular. I fear it is the nature of the beast though, Healy and McCann seem to have little regard for for anybody or anything and they continually try to belittle even the Portugese people. Why even go down that road at this stage you could ask, what have they got to gain by almost making fun of Portugal, the people who tried so hard to help them, as McCann appeared to me to do in the recent Swedish interview.

I would put my life's savings on those dogs being right, there is no question about that. What Healy and McCann should have remembered though is the dogs never said it was they who were involved in whatever happened to Madeleine. They made that assumption themselves. Funny that.
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Post by ShuBob 29.08.12 19:42

Totally agree with you here, Sami. The couple have stuck themselves between a rock and a hard place.
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Post by aiyoyo 29.08.12 19:43

ShuBob wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:She continues to reference Zapata and Jersey home cases because her bewk is aimed at ignorant joe public who hasn't followed up the those cases to know she's talking from her derriere.

She's banking on no one will call her bluff because they don't know any better. Gullible people do take what they read at face value, sadly.

Aiyoyo, but doesn't her book become a legal document in court cases such as the ones against Amaral and Tony? It's one thing relying on the ignorance of the great unwashed but quite another when you're embroiled in legal cases where the dogs evidence is a factor. She really didn't need to include that case in her book over years after he'd confessed.....unless she had to?

The bottom line of kate's bewk is profit and you need to attract the great masses to reach that goal.
She cant possibly not mention the dogs as that's an important element that contributed towards the reasons why they were made arguidos.
Omitting the mention of dogs would make them look dodgy.

Why she referenced those two cases is beyond me too -- maybe to reinforce her own belief, to fool herself thereby giving herself a sense of security albeit false -- despite the later facts to the contrary.
Notice how she includes only selective comments about the dogs (only the bits that fit her agenda),leaving room to manoveure out of a tricky situation if necessary. Playing with fire so to speak. Or maybe she's so confident of her formidable lawyers that she feels the inclusion of those cases wont jeopardy her winning chances b/c she trusts them to make a proper job of earning their exorbitant fees.

Only God knows what runs through a narcissist's mind. Take for example her other ramblings about Maddie been taken by childless couple that doesn't gel with her mental rape of her daughter in page 129 so why the hell she includes that is equally puzzling non?
She wants people to believe Maddie was taken by a sicko also doesn't gel with their belief that "there is no evidence she has come to any harm" which they chant in the public arena all the time.

Either there's a madness to their method of causing confusion, or they're just plain barking mad as frogs because fear overrides their sense of reasoning.


Healy and McCann seem to have little regard for for anybody or anything and they continually try to belittle even the Portugese people. Why even go down that road at this stage you could ask, what have they got to gain by almost making fun of Portugal, the people who tried so hard to help them, as McCann appeared to me to do in the recent Swedish interview.

Sami, spot on. You put it better than me.
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Post by PeterMac 29.08.12 19:52

aiyoyo wrote:
Either there's a madness to their method of causing confusion, or they're just plain barking mad as frogs because fear overrides their sense of reasoning.
You may be right
Confession is dated 5th February 2008,
Book is dated 2011
Or perhaps their advisors are very, very stupid
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Post by jd 29.08.12 19:55

Healy's books are nothing more than an attempt to explain away certain important issues that may crop up in the future or to gloss over very specific and important issues

I would totally agree with this. Half the reason why there isn't much about Maddie herself in the bewk or the pictures that meant so much like the tennis girl and poolside. I have always suspected that the bewk as well as the gerry mccann blogs were written by someone else. It would explain things like kate mccann saying in TV interviews that she never searched whilst the bewk says she jumped over hedges and ran through hills that night. Things like Maddie wearing a peach smock in the poolside photo when it is pink, it is Amelie who is wearing peach/orange. The gerry mccann blogs always felt like it was written by an American writer
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Post by ShuBob 29.08.12 19:57

Re PeterMac's last post:

Or both and more!
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Post by Guest 29.08.12 20:20

ShuBob wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
ShuBob wrote:What if the lawyer who tried to prevent Grime's testimony in court resorts to deperate measures and mentions the McCann case during the trial saying Grime and his dogs have been discredited even by British police giving the example of Redwood recently claiming Maddie may still be alive to support the claim? Even if the result will be to try to undermine Grime and cadaver dogs, I can't see the McCanns being happy about being dragged into such a case IF this happens.

If the lawyer knew about mccanns' discrediting the dog tactics, he should also have known they discredited the dogs in Eugene Zapata's case and look what happened? Unless the lawyer is asking for trouble for himself I doubt he would mention the mccanns, but you never know, because even attorney when desperate can commit some silly mistakes as under estimating Prosecutors and Judge's intelligence.

It will be an act of pure desperation. Just take Kate McCann, for example. She continued to reference the Zapata and Jersey home cases long after it had been conclusively proven that the dogs were right in both cases. This, from a woman embroiled in multiple legal cases where the dogs evidence is used in argument. One has to ask why their numerous very expensive legal counsel didn't rein her in. One suspects there is a method to the apparent madness.

Follow the money!

Who is paying the lawyers bills?

If she turns out to have been the guilty party: he walks.
If he did it, she's in the clear.

So: in whose best interests is it for her to go down?

Where I come from, taking separate legal counsel would have been advised to them right from the start.
Not to give this advice would expose the negligent lawyer(s) to the very real risk of disbarment.

So, not telling her to get her own lawyer, while continuing to rake in money from him, or from The Fund (controling interest: who precisely?) will probably derive from the wish to have this very fundamental negligence ab initio to be buried forever. Who'd notice, after she goes down? Who'd have her files, who could defend her, separate her position from his?

Sink or swim together, yes. But the sinking will solely be hers.

Any thoughts on this, anyone?
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Post by ShuBob 29.08.12 20:31

Portia, I'd like to add my thoughts but the truth is I don't quite understand your post MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead - Page 1 90835
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Post by Guest 29.08.12 20:39

ShuBob wrote:Portia, I'd like to add my thoughts but the truth is I don't quite understand your post MARTIN GRIME'S DOGS to give evidence in Detroit murder trial of parents of missing toddler, aged 2, presumed dead - Page 1 90835

It's in no one's interest to reign her in.

On the contrary: some very smart alecks have been letting her dig her own grave for some time now, vetting the Bewk with all its obvious inconsistencies, mistakes and lies to go forward and be printed regardless.

His defence will be: she made me do it.

She will have no defense whatsoever.

Their interests are clearly in conflict.
That's why any decent lawyer would have told them to get their own personal legal counsel right away.
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Post by aiyoyo 29.08.12 20:44

PeterMac wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
Either there's a madness to their method of causing confusion, or they're just plain barking mad as frogs because fear overrides their sense of reasoning.
You may be right
Confession is dated 5th February 2008,
Book is dated 2011
Or perhaps their advisors are very, very stupid

Depending who their advisors were.
If vetted by lawyer (say CR for instance) then it is indeed stupidity to the highest degree
If only by her friends maybe friends were unaware of Zapata confession, while controversy in Jersey Home case means dogs weren't given credence.
Or maybe the arrogant pair went against advice.

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