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MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by russiandoll on 04.09.12 9:01

I agree this referred to Maddie. After a year here I decided to go back to the very beginning as if I was reading things for the first time. Out of context it might well have ref to a female who was helping them, however taken in context it is a ref to not taking care of their missing daughter properly imo. This was from FP I believe.

Re knowing it was Maddie who was missing, I thought she was named immediately as missing by her mother...Madeleine's gone........I will need to look again at the group's statements. I was not under the impression that Kate ref to Madeleine using she/her. As for the group saying Maddie's name, they were giving statements and at that time it was clear to them who had vanished. I am a bit confused about the point you are making here, so back to the files.......

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Guest on 04.09.12 9:19

Sorry to be a pain, but this is right off topic, this thread is about the libel trial of McCanns v Amaral.

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by russiandoll on 04.09.12 9:23

it certainly has gone WAY off topic, sorry ......you are not a pain to point it out Candyfloss !

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No harm in reposting this:

Post by tigger on 05.09.12 18:51

By John Blacksmith
Saturday, 17 September 2011 at 15:56

Have you read the libel writ which the McCanns issued against Goncalo Amaral and which is now winding its way through the Portuguese justice system?

No, thought not. Nor have we. The Mirror group has, though, because the McCanns gave it to them. They won't publish it as a whole so that we can see its contents for ourselves – oh, no, no, just the bits they feel that we should read. Nor will they ever put in print why they accepted it or who exactly discussed it with them and what terms were agreed for its use and who chose the bits to highlight and the bits to leave out. That's the sort of stuff that we, the people who pay them, are not allowed to know.

This is the same Mirror group which employed the nasty little snitch Lori Campbell, whose denunciation of Robert Murat – for all the world like some horrible Soviet grass sending a Kulak to the camps under Stalin – diverted the Portuguese police effort when it might have been successfully concentrating on certain more likely suspects. The same Lori Campbell who helped Kate McCann secretly spread a pack of lies to the world not just about the police investigation in August 2007 but the scene of the disappearance itself on the night of May 3; the same Lori Campbell whose husband, an exceptionally murky figure behind his aliases, has been arrested on suspicion of major involvement in the hacking scandal. One wonders how lovable Lori would like it if people started going on television now and, instead of respecting her husband's legal rights, tell the world what a suspiciously dodgy bastard he obviously is, as she did to Murat. Lori Campbell and her husband are not bad apples: no, they are quintessentially typical examples of what the the modern tabloid journalist has become.

How did we ever allow information to be rationed and manipulated in this way? And how did the Mirror, once supposedly a socialist voice for the British working man, come to this – secretly at the service of a couple of Portuguese police suspects? How had a supposed newspaper fallen into the game of withholding the news from its readers, as in the case of the libel writ, rather than providing it? What happened to the idealism that was claimed to drive it – Forward with the People! was its motto – after World War II?

unquote

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by ShuBob on 08.09.12 22:17

Apparently, it's been confirmed that the trial won't start till 20/21 September due to ill health of Amaral's lawyer.

http://mercedessigueaqui.blogspot.de/2012/09/caso-madeleine-mccann-aplazada-la.html

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Guest on 08.09.12 22:22

Yes, I posted earlier here on this thread, wonder what is happening. Strange it's only for a week, how does the lawyer know he will be better then?

http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5584-libel-trial-postponed

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by ShuBob on 08.09.12 22:27

I believe the 20th/21st September were already scheduled dates for the trial- the dates I assumed the verdict would be announced. With the trial now starting then, I assume two new dates will be added?

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Guest on 08.09.12 22:54

@ShuBob wrote:I believe the 20th/21st September were already scheduled dates for the trial- the dates I assumed the verdict would be announced. With the trial now starting then, I assume two new dates will be added?

Yes, that sounds right ShuBob thumbsup

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.09.12 20:00

tweet from Jerry Lawton just in:
[Daily Star journalist]

Today [10 Sept 2012] at 6pm


"Madeleine McCann's parents' £1m libel action against Portuguese ex-detective Goncalo Amaral - due to start Thursday - delayed until January"


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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by ShuBob on 10.09.12 20:06

@Tony Bennett wrote:tweet from Jerry Lawton just in:
[Daily Star journalist]

Today [10 Sept 2012] at 6pm


"Madeleine McCann's parents' £1m libel action against Portuguese ex-detective Goncalo Amaral - due to start Thursday - delayed until January"


Oh come on! When will this nightmare end?

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Guest on 10.09.12 20:11

@Tony Bennett wrote:tweet from Jerry Lawton just in:
[Daily Star journalist]

Today [10 Sept 2012] at 6pm


"Madeleine McCann's parents' £1m libel action against Portuguese ex-detective Goncalo Amaral - due to start Thursday - delayed until January"


Next January

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.09.12 20:19

candyfloss wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:tweet from Jerry Lawton just in:
[Daily Star journalist]

Today [10 Sept 2012] at 6pm


"Madeleine McCann's parents' £1m libel action against Portuguese ex-detective Goncalo Amaral - due to start Thursday - delayed until January"


Next January
candyfloss, this was from my OP on this thread:

QUOTE:

There has been a long history of this case being subject to adjournments, postponements and delays, as indeed there was in the criminal trial of Goncalo Amaral - indeed it seems to be par for the course for controversial trials in Portugal.

UNQUOTE

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 10.09.12 20:26

And I don't think we can discount the possibility that this merry dance will continue for a long time - I suspect the Mc's are waiting to see what the review summary will be. After all, if the review comes to a conclusion that an abduction has no evidence to support it (as we all know to be the case), then the Mc's charges against Amaral and yourself, Tony, will simply collapse. Either that or they hope everyone will simply die of boredom.

As the Mc's are/were not going to attend, at least we know they are scared of being questioned.

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Guest on 10.09.12 20:29

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:And I don't think we can discount the possibility that this merry dance will continue for a long time - I suspect the Mc's are waiting to see what the review summary will be. After all, if the review comes to a conclusion that an abduction has no evidence to support it (as we all know to be the case), then the Mc's charges against Amaral and yourself, Tony, will simply collapse. Either that or they hope everyone will simply die of boredom.

As the Mc's are/were not going to attend, at least we know they are scared of being questioned.

I was thinking along those lines too Smokeandmirrors. I think perhaps they expected SY to have it all done and dusted, its been a year and a half.

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Post by Newintown on 10.09.12 20:30

I wonder if the delay until January has anything to do with the SY review, and the announcement that it will have to be decided by SY and the Government what the way forward should be by Christmas (I can't remember the exact words), or is my imagination working overtime?

Smokeandmirrors - we were trying to post almost the same thing at the same time!

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by ShuBob on 10.09.12 21:18

I suppose the McCanns are not in desperate need of the money so aren't bothered by the delay. Amaral, on the other hand, has to put a part of his life on hold till this is sorted out. Where is the justice in this? Hopefully, when the case eventually gets to court, it'll be worth it.

Tony, where does this leave you? Is your case also likely to be delayed?

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Guest on 10.09.12 21:22

Jerry Lawton‏@JerryLawton

Provisional new date for McCann v Amaral libel hearing is January 24. Delay apparently due to Amaral's lawyer undergoing surgery






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Post by Smokeandmirrors on 10.09.12 21:25

Candyfloss and Newintown, I think with Hogan-Howe recently saying they wanted the Gov to decide the future funding of the review, we can read the subtext. Had there been any strong leads or new opportunities, IMO funding would have been agreed behind the scenes and this would not have arisen as a news item. SY clearly do not want the blame or accusations of pulling the plug and all the McSpin that would accompany such a decision, so they have batted it back to the Home Office or whoever is making the decisions about this. If this is all a cover up for something going on in much loftier places, it's almost as if H-H is trying to distance himself from such a thing.

If there are no good leads after all this time and money, it would imply that the PJ had all bases covered with the investigation all along. The police and the government could both do with some good PR and had there been some mileage left in the investigation I think we would have heard more about it by now. Redwood's interim "She may be alive, she may be dead" was such a lame attempt at nothing in particular that I think we can now safely bypass that as irrelevant, merely paying lip-service to the media who have more than likely been pestering for stories since the review began.

If the review can find no particular fault with the initial Portugese investigation, it makes the case against Amaral start to crumble, because there is nothing to contradict the PJ belief that Maddie died in PdL and that the parents by not doing the reconstruction missed the opportunity to clear themselves.

If the SY review agrees with the PJ's findings, they therefore cannot disagree with Amarals book, if SY as a 3rd police force to look at the case files come to the same conclusion, Amaral has no case to answer. They're b*g*ered.

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by ShuBob on 10.09.12 21:29

candyfloss wrote:Jerry Lawton‏@JerryLawton

Provisional new date for McCann v Amaral libel hearing is January 24. Delay apparently due to Amaral's lawyer undergoing surgery



Thanks for the update. I wish the lawyer all the best. What a series of setbacks Amaral has had

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Guest on 10.09.12 21:33

@ShuBob wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Jerry Lawton‏@JerryLawton

Provisional new date for McCann v Amaral libel hearing is January 24. Delay apparently due to Amaral's lawyer undergoing surgery




Thanks for the update. I wish the lawyer all the best. For a series of setbacks Amaral has had



Yes, let's hope it nothing too serious.

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Operation Grange - transparent, open and thorough

Post by Tony Bennett on 10.09.12 21:38

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:And I don't think we can discount the possibility that this merry dance will continue for a long time - I suspect the Mc's are waiting to see what the review summary will be. After all, if the review comes to a conclusion that an abduction has no evidence to support it (as we all know to be the case), then the Mc's charges against Amaral and yourself, Tony, will simply collapse.

REPLY: That's an optimistic view. I've always expected the conclusion to be along these lines:

"After a careful and exhaustive examination and analysis of the files of the Portugese Police, Leicesterhsire Police, and the most helpful files kindly supplied to us by Metodo 3, Kevin Halligen, Dave Edgar, Arthur Cowley and an array of top private detectives, and after pursuing 951 separate investigative lines of enquiry, we have been unable to identify who abducted Madeleine. We consider that there is no realistic prospect of further analysis yielding results that would enable us to identify the abductor or abductors, therefore with the greatest reluctance, and with every sympathy for the plight of the McCanns whose search for their daughter has still not succeeded, we must regrettably advise the Metropolitan Commissioner that we recommend that Operation Grange be closed".

Here's a reminder by the way of the Operation Grange remit:

Operation Grange Remit

The support and expertise proffered by the Commissioner will be provided by the Homicide & Serious Crime Command - SCD1.

The activity, in the first instance, will be that of an ‘investigative review’. This will entail a review of the whole of the investigation(s) which have been conducted into the circumstances of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance.

The focus of the review will be of the material held by three main stakeholders (and in the following order of primacy);

• The Portuguese Law Enforcement agencies.
• UK Law Enforcement agencies,
• Other private investigative agencies/staff and organisations.

The investigative review is intended to collate, record and analyse what has gone before.

It is to examine the case and seek to determine, (as if the ABDUCTION had taken place in the UK) what additional, new investigative approaches we would take and which can assist the Portuguese authorities in progressing the matter. Whilst ordinarily a review has no investigative remit whatsoever - the scale and extent of this enquiry cannot permit for such an approach. It will take too long to progress to any “action stage” if activity is given wholly and solely to a review process.

The ‘investigative review’ will be conducted with transparency, openness and thoroughness.

The work will be overseen through the Gold Group management structure, which will also manage the central relationships with other key stakeholders and provide continuing oversight and direction to the investigative remit.

I thought the bit in red above was a really nice touch - lovely, really so nice. And how wonderfully the Senior Investigating Officer, D.C.I. Andy Redwood, put it after his first year's effort, and you couldn't wsih for any greater clarity: "We are working on two theories, either that Madeleine is alive, or that she is, sadly, dead". The moment he said that I knew Cameron was right in spending limitless taxpayers' money on this 'no-holds-barred, without-fear-or-favour' review, stuffed with the most experienced detectives that the Met could lay its hands on (i.e. those with less than two years to go to retirement). The British establishment at work. No wonder we once had an Empire on which the sun never set.

Either that or they hope everyone will simply die of boredom. As the Mc's are/were not going to attend, at least we know they are scared of being questioned.

REPLY: I am not sure they are 'scared'. It does mean however that when these libel proceedings are brought, they cannot be cross-examined on their claims such as 'we are seriously depressed and emotional wrecks becaue of your wretched book' or 'you are harming the search for Madeleine'. These are their claims. It is rare for a court to decide in favour of claimants who are not prepared to put their claims under the scrutiny of cross-examination.

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by ShuBob on 10.09.12 21:39

Personally, I don't see what effect the SY review can have on the case against Amaral. In the UK, they may try to use that against TB and others but with the Supreme Court judgment in Portugal, the review conclusions will be a non-starter in relation to Amaral IMO.

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by aiyoyo on 11.09.12 7:28

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:And I don't think we can discount the possibility that this merry dance will continue for a long time - I suspect the Mc's are waiting to see what the review summary will be. After all, if the review comes to a conclusion that an abduction has no evidence to support it (as we all know to be the case), then the Mc's charges against Amaral and yourself, Tony, will simply collapse. Either that or they hope everyone will simply die of boredom.

As the Mc's are/were not going to attend, at least we know they are scared of being questioned.

This merry dance has gone on for over 3 years now and just as we think it's going to stop at last and now this setback.

Personally I don't think the Yard's verdict ,what it be, will have any bearing on the Mccanns' libel case against Amaral under the Portuguese law.
Unless the review is a joint one and verdict collective, the Yard's conclusion is theirs alone, and I suspect it will be worthless for any legal purposes even under the UK jurisdiction. Forget it will have any merit in another country's jurisdiction.








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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by tigger on 11.09.12 7:39

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:And I don't think we can discount the possibility that this merry dance will continue for a long time - I suspect the Mc's are waiting to see what the review summary will be. After all, if the review comes to a conclusion that an abduction has no evidence to support it (as we all know to be the case), then the Mc's charges against Amaral and yourself, Tony, will simply collapse. Either that or they hope everyone will simply die of boredom.

As the Mc's are/were not going to attend, at least we know they are scared of being questioned.

This merry dance has gone on for over 3 years now and just as we think it's going to stop at last and now this setback.

Personally I don't think the Yard's verdict ,what it be, will have any bearing on the Mccanns' libel case against Amaral under the Portuguese law.
Unless the review is a joint one and verdict collective, the Yard's conclusion is theirs alone, and I suspect it will be worthless for any legal purposes even under the UK jurisdiction. Forget it will have any merit in another country's jurisdiction.


I think they're looking for an excuse to pull out. The sooner the better. People may wonder what they got for their books, if an unknown foreign language book netted 1.2 million.
Gerry seems to have disappeared since the April performances. Giving Kate the job she's been after since January 08 (in fact earlier because I remember an entry in the blog somewhere around July 07 that nothing suitable had turned up for Kate yet) doesn't seem to have overjoyed the public.
Lack lustre interviews, public apathetic when there's a new sighting. It's over bar the shouting. The public are bored and there's little money in it for the papers.

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Re: MCCANNS v AMARAL: The final trial...Will it start in 3 weeks - or will there be another postponement? UPDATE NOW DELAYED UNTIL JANUARY

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 11.09.12 16:56

In reply to responses above, I think the SY review could have an impact on Amarals case inasmuch as if the Review comes to the same or similar conclusions as the PJ, then the Mc's cannot claim libel, surely? Libel is the publication of untruths about someone, and if more than one police force after goodness knows how many £millions of public money come to the conclusion that there is no solid evidence of an abduction (only the ever changing witness of a member of the group) and there are very suspicious factors surrounding the parents statements and circumstances, how can they pursue Amaral for damages? None of us believe that sniffer dogs with 100% track record are lying, and I doubt that this is a factor that has escaped the notice of SY, and therefore this must be taken into account when they conclude their review. They are reviewing this as part of the files, just like they are reviewing the phone records, inaccurate/conflicting statements, refusal to do a reconstruction and all the rest of it.

Amarals trial is on the basis of the Mc's claims that his books is lies and defamatory, but they are going to have a hell of a time trying to prove that in a court of law. Amarals lawyer, when well enough to attend a hearing, can reel off the staggering list of weird circumstantial elements of the case which rather suggest that Amarals theory is plausible if untested in a court. They can't just "do" Amaral on the Mc's insistence and if his defence lawyer has any wherewithal about them, they will have gone through the files and the Mc's own spoken contradictions (i.e. the Piers Morgan coloboma lie, promising the fund would NOT be spent on legal fees etc) and totally discredit the Mc's truthfulness.

We must always remain optimistic, after all Amaral HAS defeated them TWICE in court before. The Portugese have been slated for FIVE YEARS by Team Mc, there is no way on God's green earth Amaral will lose this case. Not a chance. I have every faith he will win this, and the best way of supporting Amaral is to collectively believe in a positive outcome. Believe in the law of attraction. One thing all of life's winners have in common is an unshakeable belief in success and positive outcomes!!

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