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Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

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Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Guest on 03.08.12 17:04

I went back to read Kates police statements. And in the second one done on septhember 6th , here is a snipped: See the highlighted text

After the children's bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness.

What I read is that all children where bathed, she only put pyjamas on the twins and not M ? Not logical assuming she also was given a bath and getting ready for bed because she was the one saying she was really tiered.

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the veranda door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left by this door. She confirmed it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly. David's visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area,
So K and G according to K has already desided not to take the children to the recretion area because the children where so tiered, so why then ask David to go help her bringing them to the place they decided not to go too? which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn't actually enter the flat, he remained at the veranda door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.

After David left, Kate dressed and sat with the children, Madeleine on her lap. She was wearing a top, she doesn't remember what colour it was, a green long-sleeved t-shirt, blue denim pants. Trainers (tennis shoes) and white socks.

Why would M have shoes on after a bath before bedtime? Why is she not dressed in her pyjamas already?


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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Guest on 03.08.12 17:28

Wow - how many times have they not bragged about the fact that they could see the appartment from the Tapas. Yet Kate says this in her statement from septhember 6th

She makes a sketch of the table and says that both she and Gerry were not facing the apartments. Sketch attached.

So what help is it if you could see it ( as we know they couldnt anyway) when your sitting with your back to it...?

And this may be a type or translation error, but it reads:

During this check, she thinks that Gerry did not check on the children of any other couple, because it was usual just to check on their own children. She never checked on any other child, other than her two.

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by russiandoll on 02.09.12 23:35

Kae certainly has amazing vision according to this witness statement 4th May

She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

This must be the patio door accessed from the roadside. How did she immediately notice the bedroom door was open when she entered? That door is in a recess and not visible unless you cross the living area .

Oprah Winfrey show, Kate says this


Kate: I went at ten and I went into the apartment and there was no crying I stopped and there was no crying. And then I just noticed that the door was quite open.
She had to cross the lounge area to notice the door. If all was quiet why would she have walked across the room?

from "Madeleine was here" May 2009
I did my check about 10.00 'clock and went in through the sliding patio doors and I just stood, actually and I thought, oh, all quiet, and to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it.

she says it clearly here, she went through the patio doors and JUST STOOD. Then she says that she JUST NOTICED THE BEDROOM DOOR WAS OPEN...

Again..........how did she notice this from where she was JUST STANDING NEAR THE PATIO DOORS?
She does not once say, even though it was all quiet, she went towards the bedroom to make doubly sure everything was ok.

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by PeterMac on 02.09.12 23:49

It is always most revealing to back to the beginning, to forget everything we have read, and everything we have written, to dismiss all judgments we have made, and to start again.
It is called a "review". And is always worth doing.
From time to time it is devastating, as something apparently previously dismissed as innocuous or irrelevant, may some times be revealed in all its glory.
This is one example.

Another is from another thread.
KM screamed "They've taken HER" - or words to that effect.
Everyone knew (they knew) immediately that she was referring to Madeleine, not to Amelie.
How ?
Why ?




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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Ross on 02.09.12 23:56

@PeterMac wrote:It is always most revealing to back to the beginning, to forget everything we have read, and everything we have written, to dismiss all judgments we have made, and to start again.
It is called a "review". And is always worth doing.
From time to time it is devastating, as something apparently previously dismissed as innocuous or irrelevant, may some times be revealed in all its glory.
This is one example.

Another is from another thread.
KM screamed "They've taken HER" - or words to that effect.
Everyone knew (they knew) immediately that she was referring to Madeleine, not to Amelie.
How ?
Why ?




Not just the "her", but the "they". Not 'someone' has taken her, but people known to them have.

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by russiandoll on 03.09.12 0:12

To Piers Morgan, when asked to describe the moment she realised Maddie had gone....

Well I went back to do a check at 10 o clock, and I went through the patio doors at the back and I listened for a minute in the living room and it was all quiet and I just noticed that the door to the childrens bedroom was quite far open...


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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by tuom on 03.09.12 0:21

@russiandoll wrote: To Piers Morgan, when asked to describe the moment she realised Maddie had gone....

Well I went back to do a check at 10 o clock, and I went through the patio doors at the back and I listened for a minute in the living room and it was all quiet and I just noticed that the door to the childrens bedroom was quite far open...



not Sean or Amalie , she knew before going in the bedroom that Madeleine was gone

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by russiandoll on 03.09.12 0:47

no apologies for harping on...

FROM HER BOOK :

"At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself. I entered the sitting room via the patio doors as Gerry and Matt had done, and stood there, listening, for a few seconds. All was silent. Then I noticed that the door to the children's bedroom was open quite wide, not how we had left it. At first I assumed that Matt must have moved it. I WALKED OVER AND GENTLY BEGAN TO PULL IT TO. SUDDENLY IT SLAMMED SHUT, AS IF CAUGHT BY A DRAUGHT."

so she is saying here again that she entered, stood for what now has decreased to a few seconds........saw the door open and then walked over.
If she had walked across the lounge area to a point where she could see the damned door she would not have needed to walk anywhere apart from into the bedroom.
It is clear as day to me that she is talking about standing at the patio door to listen. From what diagrams and photos I have seen, it seems the bedroom door can't be seen from the patio door, maybe I am wrong though.
Any thoughts?


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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by aiyoyo on 03.09.12 7:10

Moa wrote: I went back to read Kates police statements. And in the second one done on septhember 6th , here is a snipped: See the highlighted text

After the children's bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness.

What I read is that all children where bathed, she only put pyjamas on the twins and not M ? Not logical assuming she also was given a bath and getting ready for bed because she was the one saying she was really tiered.

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes. After showering, at around 6:30/6:40PM and while she was getting dry, she heard somebody knocking at the veranda door. She wrapped herself in a towel and went to see who it was. This door was closed but not locked as Gerry had left by this door. She confirmed it was David Payne, because he called out and had opened the door slightly. David's visit was to help her to take the children to the recreation area. When David returned from the beach he was with Gerry at the tennis courts, and it was Gerry who asked him to help Kate with taking the children to the recreation area,
So K and G according to K has already desided not to take the children to the recretion area because the children where so tiered, so why then ask David to go help her bringing them to the place they decided not to go too? which had been arranged but did not take place. David was at the apartment for around 30 seconds, he didn't actually enter the flat, he remained at the veranda door. According to her he then left for the tennis courts where Gerry was. The time was around 6:30-6:40PM.

After David left, Kate dressed and sat with the children, Madeleine on her lap. She was wearing a top, she doesn't remember what colour it was, a green long-sleeved t-shirt, blue denim pants. Trainers (tennis shoes) and white socks.

Why would M have shoes on after a bath before bedtime? Why is she not dressed in her pyjamas already?


You can drive a horse and carriage through that sentence..
So here we have Kate preparing her three children for bed and has the sense to dress the twins in pj and diapers, but when it comes to Maddie she dressed her in 2 layers of top, denim pants, and shoes as well.

Why would anyone need a top over a long-sleeved t-shirt just for indoor anyway?
Besides, what sort of mum cannot remember the colour of the top she dressed her child in especially on such a fateful day?
One would have thought that should have been etched onto her memory.

Kate did not mention Maddie in bedtime snack ( as if Maddie was already gone by then) and she was preparing twins only for bed.
What's in the milk that they slept through the entire commotion?
While Gerry mentioned he and Kate read Maddie bedtime story.

More importantly David Payne said that kate's three children were all dressed in white (or something to that effect) and they were all angelic looking etc...
They just cant get their stories to synch can they? Won't happen if they were recounting from facts.

If Redwood, the self-proclaimed "experienced detective" cannot see the holes in their stories, he's just so full of shite.
He should walk his talk. or cash in his cheque, go into retirement, and crossed his fingers the shit wont hit the fan.






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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 03.09.12 7:19

Isn't the top, jeans and tennis shoes what Kate was wearing? Doesn't say it was Madeleine, different sentence.

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Guest on 03.09.12 7:27

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:Isn't the top, jeans and tennis shoes what Kate was wearing? Doesn't say it was Madeleine, different sentence.

I guess you are right, shes probably talking about her self, again...

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by PeterMac on 03.09.12 8:20

Because it is so important for us to know what Kate was wearing ! ? ! ?

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Nina on 03.09.12 8:26

@russiandoll wrote: no apologies for harping on...

FROM HER BOOK :

"At 10pm I went back to the apartment myself. I entered the sitting room via the patio doors as Gerry and Matt had done, and stood there, listening, for a few seconds. All was silent. Then I noticed that the door to the children's bedroom was open quite wide, not how we had left it. At first I assumed that Matt must have moved it. I WALKED OVER AND GENTLY BEGAN TO PULL IT TO. SUDDENLY IT SLAMMED SHUT, AS IF CAUGHT BY A DRAUGHT."

so she is saying here again that she entered, stood for what now has decreased to a few seconds........saw the door open and then walked over.
If she had walked across the lounge area to a point where she could see the damned door she would not have needed to walk anywhere apart from into the bedroom.
It is clear as day to me that she is talking about standing at the patio door to listen. From what diagrams and photos I have seen, it seems the bedroom door can't be seen from the patio door, maybe I am wrong though.
Any thoughts?


The patio door opens from left to right so as she opened it to enter she would be in the very left corner of the room so no wouldn't be able to see the door of the childrens room which is in the recess where the parents door and the bathroom door are situated. The childrens door which would be in front of her and well to the left, opens, as facing it, from the viewers left, inwards, so again not easy to see.
Imo other than going right into the apartment it would be impossible to see this door and easy to prove a lie.

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by russiandoll on 03.09.12 9:07

In normal circumstances it would be reasonably called nit-picking to expect a description of a person's movements in minute detail, e.g. when you opened and entered, where exactly were you standing for this minute / few seconds, when you listened and then noticed an open door?
These though are far from normal circumstances and given the details of the various checks and comings and goings from the table, with a precise time of 9.04 for her husband at one point........it is reasonable and logical imo to expect even more detail when the space being described is now narrowed down to the movements around the scene where a person made a dreadful discovery. It seems reasonable to infer from all these statements that she entered and stayed put, close to the left corner of the room. I have looked at many floor plans, most of which suggest that unless you stepped some way into the living area or moved across near the patio door over to your right, there would not be a sight line.........there are a couple of photos showing a view from the patio end of the room, but these are close to the sofa and so some way in from the door. The archway leading to the bathroom and bedroom area looks wider on some plans then on others. I still maintain that from where she entered, if she did stand there and listen, without moving forwards or to the side, either of which she could have done to get a look at the room, she could not have noticed the open door. She does not say that she moved from the patio door before noticing the bedroom door, but she goes into minute detail about the door and curtains once she gets over to the room.
Another question raised here......what would be the point of entering and taking a few steps forwards or sideways to see the door.? No trouble to just walk over without stopping and listening, after all how can you reassure yourself that your children are ok unless you see them? She did boast in her book that their checking system was better than the usual MW checks as the tapas checks were visual not just listening.
Oh yes? Then why did Kate decide to go and LOOK only after her attention had been drawn to an open door?
A complete crock of merde. Pardon my French.
It is amazing that she and some of the group were excluded from 2nd statements a week later. Why was this?

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Guest on 03.09.12 9:16

Here in KM's own words what happened, right at the beginning of this video.........

[youtube][/youtube]

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Guest on 03.09.12 9:21

@russiandoll wrote: In normal circumstances it would be reasonably called nit-picking to expect a description of a person's movements in minute detail, e.g. when you opened and entered, where exactly were you standing for this minute / few seconds, when you listened and then noticed an open door?
These though are far from normal circumstances and given the details of the various checks and comings and goings from the table, with a precise time of 9.04 for her husband at one point........it is reasonable and logical imo to expect even more detail when the space being described is now narrowed down to the movements around the scene where a person made a dreadful discovery. It seems reasonable to infer from all these statements that she entered and stayed put, close to the left corner of the room. I have looked at many floor plans, most of which suggest that unless you stepped some way into the living area or moved across near the patio door over to your right, there would not be a sight line.........there are a couple of photos showing a view from the patio end of the room, but these are close to the sofa and so some way in from the door. The archway leading to the bathroom and bedroom area looks wider on some plans then on others. I still maintain that from where she entered, if she did stand there and listen, without moving forwards or to the side, either of which she could have done to get a look at the room, she could not have noticed the open door. She does not say that she moved from the patio door before noticing the bedroom door, but she goes into minute detail about the door and curtains once she gets over to the room.
Another question raised here......what would be the point of entering and taking a few steps forwards or sideways to see the door.? No trouble to just walk over without stopping and listening, after all how can you reassure yourself that your children are ok unless you see them? She did boast in her book that their checking system was better than the usual MW checks as the tapas checks were visual not just listening.
Oh yes? Then why did Kate decide to go and LOOK only after her attention had been drawn to an open door?
A complete crock of merde. Pardon my French.
It is amazing that she and some of the group were excluded from 2nd statements a week later. Why was this?

I guess a reconstruction would answer that question, and a lot of other questions.. But then again, TM dont see how that can help THEM finding their daughter, so why bother doing it..

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by russiandoll on 03.09.12 9:35

Kate Healy/McCann made one statement to police 4th May.
She and some others were not recalled to make a second a week later. Others were.
She made a statement 6th September and the process was halted at 11 p.m. just as she had described entering the apartment.
The next day when it recommenced, she was asked about her movements once inside, what she did and what she saw.
She did not reply, so we have no elaboration on what she did and what she saw once she stepped into 5a.
We are left with her entering,standing and listening, followed by seeing and then moving.

Of course she would not elaborate. She did in the book though, over-egging the pudding with back and forth movements to check patio door was shut after she had reached the bedroom ; she still did not look in until she went to check the patio door and went to the children's room a second time.
Way too much detail....why not just say I went in through the patio doors, walked over to see if the children were ok in their room, noticed the door was open more than I expected it to be.......Madeleine was not in her bed.
No we need a drama......TOO MUCH DETAIL.
No surprise her lawyer advised silence.

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by tigger on 03.09.12 10:01

@russiandoll wrote: In normal circumstances it would be reasonably called nit-picking to expect a description of a person's movements in minute detail, e.g. when you opened and entered, where exactly were you standing for this minute / few seconds, when you listened and then noticed an open door?
These though are far from normal circumstances and given the details of the various checks and comings and goings from the table, with a precise time of 9.04 for her husband at one point........it is reasonable and logical imo to expect even more detail when the space being described is now narrowed down to the movements around the scene where a person made a dreadful discovery. [....]

She does not say that she moved from the patio door before noticing the bedroom door, but she goes into minute detail about the door and curtains once she gets over to the room.
Another question raised here......what would be the point of entering and taking a few steps forwards or sideways to see the door.? No trouble to just walk over without stopping and listening, after all how can you reassure yourself that your children are ok unless you see them? She did boast in her book that their checking system was better than the usual MW checks as the tapas checks were visual not just listening.
Oh yes? Then why did Kate decide to go and LOOK only after her attention had been drawn to an open door?
A complete crock of merde. Pardon my French.
It is amazing that she and some of the group were excluded from 2nd statements a week later. Why was this?

The lawyers had arrived, the Ambassador had intervened as from 4/5 and possibly Brown or Blair had done their bit for Britain.....

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Guest on 03.09.12 10:17

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:Isn't the top, jeans and tennis shoes what Kate was wearing? Doesn't say it was Madeleine, different sentence.



Wasn't she wearing these?

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by aiyoyo on 03.09.12 10:17

Moa wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:Isn't the top, jeans and tennis shoes what Kate was wearing? Doesn't say it was Madeleine, different sentence.

I guess you are right, shes probably talking about her self, again...

Doesn't say it was Kate either.
Why describe her own outfit, she isn't the one missing?

Like PM said, why is it important for us to know what she was wearing?

On top of that, how can she not remember what colour top she had on?
Even if she cant (very unlikely considering short time lapse) there are plenty eye witnesses who can fill in the Police in that regard,

Anyway what she was wearing on the 3rd May was captured by media surely.
Can anyone imagine someone frantic going out of their mind over their missing child would have change of cloth in mind?




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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Guest on 03.09.12 10:20

candyfloss wrote:Here in KM's own words what happened, right at the beginning of this video.........

[youtube][/youtube]

And there's Gerry at the back door and Kate makes a point of unlocking the door to let him in. So at home she locks herself in but on holiday she leaves the door unlocked for her little kids.

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by Guest on 03.09.12 10:22

@aiyoyo wrote:Like PM said, why is it important for us to know what she was wearing?

Because the check pants were worn at work when she dealt with six dead bodies? Maybe she didn't want to admit she was wearing them and got Maddie's cadaver scent on them so she said she was wearing jeans?

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by aiyoyo on 03.09.12 10:23

@admin wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:Isn't the top, jeans and tennis shoes what Kate was wearing? Doesn't say it was Madeleine, different sentence.



Wasn't she wearing these?

Your post crossed with mine.

Exactly. Her infamous special perfume o'cadaverine checked pants of ganga isn't denim is it?

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Re: Kate on the night M vanished - what to make of it

Post by PeterMac on 03.09.12 10:31

The bit I still cherish is -
p,72 "I dashed over to the second bed, on the other side of the travel cots . . . "
DASHED ?
The new Olympic and World record for the six foot obstacle Dash is held by Kate Healy.
0.15 seconds


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