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Investigator ensures that Maddie's body in the backyard of Murat - Page 7 Mm11

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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Investigator ensures that Maddie's body in the backyard of Murat - Page 7 Mm11

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Post by russiandoll 06.07.12 14:36

voicing a thought .
Regardless of any claimed searching, Mr Birch has managed in his interview to put certain individuals in a difficult position. If those persons do not come out soon and request this is followed up if only to dismiss his theory, given that a live child has not been found, the desire of these individuals to discover the fate of this little girl is going to look like a sham.
He has an agenda for sure.

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Post by Clouseau 06.07.12 14:37

I believe 103% in the dogs.

A corpse was in the back of that hire car so are we expected to believe that the child was relocated there 20 odd days later with the whole worlds media looking on



i dont think so
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Post by Lady-Heather 06.07.12 15:00

monkey mind wrote:
uppatoffee wrote:Just seen that Eben Black has worked for Murdoch's NOTW. Is he for real?
He may be for real though in all honesty we cannot be sure.....

*Eben* is an acronym for "Extra-terrestrial Biological ENtity, and whilst many people claim to have seen one, even been abducted by one, they haven't actually landed in front of the houses of parliament as yet.
So who can say if he is for real??
Some serious investigators believe the mysterious 'men in black' to be extra-terrestrials....
Eben Black
Hmmm

He seems pretty real to me: http://www.dlapiper.com/uk/people/detail.aspx?attorney=3223
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Post by Pershing36 06.07.12 15:11

Clouseau wrote:I believe 103% in the dogs.

A corpse was in the back of that hire car so are we expected to believe that the child was relocated there 20 odd days later with the whole worlds media looking on



i dont think so

Yes and how nobody would know it had been buried in the garden? It is looking increasingly unlikely, just can't figure out why this guy has put himself up for humiliation?

The only way I could see this being true is if the corpse was moved around quite a bit to avoid being found. Could be why there was signs of freezers etc. Then a suitable place couldn't be found or the risk of moving it again became too much it was just buried in the garden in desperation.

In all honesty it is looking a bit Hollywood to me now.
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Post by Lady-Heather 06.07.12 15:16

Clouseau wrote:I believe 103% in the dogs.

A corpse was in the back of that hire car so are we expected to believe that the child was relocated there 20 odd days later with the whole worlds media looking on

i dont think so

I disagree with this based on Martin Grimes statement regarding transferral of odour: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

If Kate's clothes/cuddle cat/other items were found to have been in contact with a cadavar, which then subsequently contacted another surface (the car boot) it is plausible that the dogs were alerting to odour which had transferred from one of these items to another.
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Post by tigger 06.07.12 15:18

Gillyspot wrote:The McCanns have sort of commented

"The McCanns, who have stated that they believe their daughter could still be alive, have refused to comment on Mr Birch's findings"

Who gave that statement of no "comment" that is an interesting thought. Clearly not PR man Mitchell - Doesn't say "family friend" "close to McCanns" - simply "The McCanns".

They've deviated from the script: 'There is no evidence that Madeleine has come to any harm etc. ' But it may just be that it's not a quote but a general statement from the journalist. Still, I take the word 'could' as an encouraging sign.
Have they commented on the Horrocks article? Because that's old hat anyway - about a year old? So it's the silly season and various things are trotted out.
Two South Africans now who are spending time and money on MMcC. Is this a growth industry in SA?
Danny Krugel is priceless with his hairbrush full of Madeleine's hair (just what the PJ had been looking for - dash it!) and his magic machine. Now someone who can do a GPR survey without anyone noticing, not easy.

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Post by russiandoll 06.07.12 15:31

Nonsense or not, and I can't understand why this guy is on record saying these things.... it is your case Portugal, please investigate this unless you are convinced beyond doubt it is a scam. If there is any possibility of human remains in this location then there is possibly a family needing to grieve and a person who needs to be retrieved with dignity and respect and whose remains need to be laid to rest.
Please take this seriously Portuguese authorities. Unless you are certain Mr Birch cannot possibly have undertaken this search or if you accept that he has, that his theory is wrong, investigate his claims.

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Post by sweetex 06.07.12 15:54

russiandoll wrote: Nonsense or not, and I can't understand why this guy is on record saying these things.... it is your case Portugal, please investigate this unless you are convinced beyond doubt it is a scam. If there is any possibility of human remains in this location then there is possibly a family needing to grieve and a person who needs to be retrieved with dignity and respect and whose remains need to be laid to rest.
Please take this seriously Portuguese authorities. Unless you are certain Mr Birch cannot possibly have undertaken this search or if you accept that he has, that his theory is wrong, investigate his claims.

agree

I always try to be realistic, but for some reason this guy sounds a bit too confident to just turn a back on it. Maybe it is nothing, maybe it is something. We will never know unless someone follow up on this. If they don't investigate this now, and M is still missing after 10 years, everyone will still wonder if this could have been IT.
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Post by Meagain 06.07.12 16:04

If I have understood correctly, this guy doesn't think it's Robert Murat that buried "the body" that he says he has identified as being buried in the garden.

What made him think that Robert Murat's garden was worth a snoop around then?

The garden had been checked previously and had been found to be fine so what made him think it was worth a re-visit with all his snoopery gear and my second question echoes a fair few posters - how did he snoop about undetected by two massive guard dogs?

Having said that, let's hope the garden is dug up promptly to hopefully show this guy to be a waffling attention seeker.

K.
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Post by Liz Eagles 06.07.12 16:04

PeterMac wrote:I am not sure about "Breaking into a garden" being such a heinous crime.
It would be civil trespass in the UK, actionable only on proof of damage. Only if there were physical damage to the gate, for example, might a criminal offence be committed.

Incidentally entering the house itself, in English law, is only "burglary" if done with intent to steal, commit damage, rape or GBH 'therein'.
Otherwise it is just civil trespass.

So simply going into a garden and having a look round and then leaving does not go very high on the scale. There is also an implied right to enter the garden to visit the house, for example to speak to the occupant, deliver papers, and so on. And privacy seems to have gone by the board with maps.google and google earth. I have just focussed down on Casa Liliana to see what was going on, but the image is some years old.

PeterMac, does that mean that anyone can walk into anyone else's garden after ensuring they are out, take in equipment, do whatever it is they want as long as they haven't damaged anything and it is only a CIVIL trespass? The police can't do that on a property, they'd need a damned good reason and most likely either the permission of the owner or a warrant surely? Does this mean a civilian such as SB has more rights than police? I'm astounded.

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Post by sweetex 06.07.12 16:07

tigger wrote:
Gillyspot wrote:The McCanns have sort of commented

"The McCanns, who have stated that they believe their daughter could still be alive, have refused to comment on Mr Birch's findings"

Who gave that statement of no "comment" that is an interesting thought. Clearly not PR man Mitchell - Doesn't say "family friend" "close to McCanns" - simply "The McCanns".

They've deviated from the script: 'There is no evidence that Madeleine has come to any harm etc. ' But it may just be that it's not a quote but a general statement from the journalist. Still, I take the word 'could' as an encouraging sign.
Have they commented on the Horrocks article? Because that's old hat anyway - about a year old? So it's the silly season and various things are trotted out.
Two South Africans now who are spending time and money on MMcC. Is this a growth industry in SA?
Danny Krugel is priceless with his hairbrush full of Madeleine's hair (just what the PJ had been looking for - dash it!) and his magic machine. Now someone who can do a GPR survey without anyone noticing, not easy.

@Tigger - can I ask you for your reasons for not believing this may be true? Or is it only the fact that you think its a nutcase looking for attention. Do you have other reasons for thinking it is impossible for her to be buried in Murat's backyard? Just curios as to what your reasoning is behind this?

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Post by ShuBob 06.07.12 16:32

I think it's worth noting that this guy (or someone like him also from SA) has been saying the same thing for over a year if what the mods here are saying is true and I have no reason to doubt them. The PJ as well as the McCanns and Murat have probably also been aware of this for some time. How do we know the PJ haven't already investigated and ruled it out? It may not make sense but I won't be surprised if it's the McCanns who are behind the story hitting the press now if only to drag Murat's name back in the picture.
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Post by littlepixie 06.07.12 16:35

PeterMac wrote:I am not sure about "Breaking into a garden" being such a heinous crime.
It would be civil trespass in the UK, actionable only on proof of damage. Only if there were physical damage to the gate, for example, might a criminal offence be committed.

Incidentally entering the house itself, in English law, is only "burglary" if done with intent to steal, commit damage, rape or GBH 'therein'.
Otherwise it is just civil trespass.

So simply going into a garden and having a look round and then leaving does not go very high on the scale. There is also an implied right to enter the garden to visit the house, for example to speak to the occupant, deliver papers, and so on. And privacy seems to have gone by the board with maps.google and google earth. I have just focussed down on Casa Liliana to see what was going on, but the image is some years old.

That is true Petermac, when I reported a man for sneaking into my garden and tapping on my daughters bedroom windows at night, the local Police told me there was nothing they could do as it was civil trespass.

I was fuming as he was 36 and she was 12 but that is another story!!
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Post by monkey mind 06.07.12 16:39

aquila wrote:
PeterMac wrote:I am not sure about "Breaking into a garden" being such a heinous crime.
It would be civil trespass in the UK, actionable only on proof of damage. Only if there were physical damage to the gate, for example, might a criminal offence be committed.

Incidentally entering the house itself, in English law, is only "burglary" if done with intent to steal, commit damage, rape or GBH 'therein'.
Otherwise it is just civil trespass.

So simply going into a garden and having a look round and then leaving does not go very high on the scale. There is also an implied right to enter the garden to visit the house, for example to speak to the occupant, deliver papers, and so on. And privacy seems to have gone by the board with maps.google and google earth. I have just focussed down on Casa Liliana to see what was going on, but the image is some years old.

PeterMac, does that mean that anyone can walk into anyone else's garden after ensuring they are out, take in equipment, do whatever it is they want as long as they haven't damaged anything and it is only a CIVIL trespass? The police can't do that on a property, they'd need a damned good reason and most likely either the permission of the owner or a warrant surely? Does this mean a civilian such as SB has more rights than police? I'm astounded.
Obviously the law in Portugal may well be different but if this had taken place in England then PeterMac is correct. It all centres around what the person is there for, what they do, what they are carrying, or what their intent is as Peter explained in regards to burglary. Or there could be an intent to commit a sexual offence covered under the Sexual Offences act, or if they were inpossession of a firearm that too would constitute a criminal offence. If you can prove they were there for an “unlawful purpose” then S4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824 may apply, but is trying to uncover evidence of a crime an unlawful purpose? I would say not. There’s also Criminal Trespass which off the top of my head doesn’t apply here. So yes, I agree with Peter, no big deal, civil matter only though with the influence the McCann’s have this may result in the Caddish and Below the Belt Behaviour Act 2013.
Police are governed by a different set of laws and criteria entirely any breach of which will have consequences ranging from inadmissibility of evidence in a Court of Law to civil or criminal charges.
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Post by Cheshire Cat 06.07.12 16:45

ShuBob wrote:I think it's worth noting that this guy (or someone like him also from SA) has been saying the same thing for over a year if what the mods here are saying is true and I have no reason to doubt them. The PJ as well as the McCanns and Murat have probably also been aware of this for some time. How do we know the PJ haven't already investigated and ruled it out? It may not make sense but I won't be surprised if it's the McCanns who are behind the story hitting the press now if only to drag Murat's name back in the picture.

That is my thinking as well. Pat Brown didn't get this publicity when she did her work and search earlier this year!
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Post by Guest 06.07.12 16:45

ShuBob wrote:I think it's worth noting that this guy (or someone like him also from SA) has been saying the same thing for over a year if what the mods here are saying is true and I have no reason to doubt them. The PJ as well as the McCanns and Murat have probably also been aware of this for some time. How do we know the PJ haven't already investigated and ruled it out? It may not make sense but I won't be surprised if it's the McCanns who are behind the story hitting the press now if only to drag Murat's name back in the picture.
It would definitely be in K&G's interest for the media to be talking about Madeleine not being alive, with their battle with Mr Amaral continuing. If the whole world thinks she's no longer alive they can blame that on him.

At least that's how I see it.
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Post by Guest 06.07.12 16:47

littlepixie wrote:That is true Petermac, when I reported a man for sneaking into my garden and tapping on my daughters bedroom windows at night, the local Police told me there was nothing they could do as it was civil trespass.

I was fuming as he was 36 and she was 12 but that is another story!!
Where did you bury him? Confess, pixie! laughat
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Post by roy rovers 06.07.12 16:50

How about Stephen Birch breaks in, digs a hole, puts a body in it, fills it up then films himself going over it with his gizmo? We need to cover all the angles and hey it's summer - silly season is upon us!
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Post by Liz Eagles 06.07.12 16:55

monkey mind wrote:
aquila wrote:
PeterMac wrote:I am not sure about "Breaking into a garden" being such a heinous crime.
It would be civil trespass in the UK, actionable only on proof of damage. Only if there were physical damage to the gate, for example, might a criminal offence be committed.

Incidentally entering the house itself, in English law, is only "burglary" if done with intent to steal, commit damage, rape or GBH 'therein'.
Otherwise it is just civil trespass.

So simply going into a garden and having a look round and then leaving does not go very high on the scale. There is also an implied right to enter the garden to visit the house, for example to speak to the occupant, deliver papers, and so on. And privacy seems to have gone by the board with maps.google and google earth. I have just focussed down on Casa Liliana to see what was going on, but the image is some years old.

PeterMac, does that mean that anyone can walk into anyone else's garden after ensuring they are out, take in equipment, do whatever it is they want as long as they haven't damaged anything and it is only a CIVIL trespass? The police can't do that on a property, they'd need a damned good reason and most likely either the permission of the owner or a warrant surely? Does this mean a civilian such as SB has more rights than police? I'm astounded.
Obviously the law in Portugal may well be different but if this had taken place in England then PeterMac is correct. It all centres around what the person is there for, what they do, what they are carrying, or what their intent is as Peter explained in regards to burglary. Or there could be an intent to commit a sexual offence covered under the Sexual Offences act, or if they were inpossession of a firearm that too would constitute a criminal offence. If you can prove they were there for an “unlawful purpose” then S4 of the Vagrancy Act 1824 may apply, but is trying to uncover evidence of a crime an unlawful purpose? I would say not. There’s also Criminal Trespass which off the top of my head doesn’t apply here. So yes, I agree with Peter, no big deal, civil matter only though with the influence the McCann’s have this may result in the Caddish and Below the Belt Behaviour Act 2013.
Police are governed by a different set of laws and criteria entirely any breach of which will have consequences ranging from inadmissibility of evidence in a Court of Law to civil or criminal charges.

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Post by Rob Royston 06.07.12 17:05

Hi! I'm new here, I have been reading a lot on this case for the last few months, so I know that it is not straight-forward. With the high profile people who have been involved I would rule nothing out, especially with regards to cover ups and dis-information.

When I watched the video about "the truth of the lie" I was surprised that Amarel believed that Madeleine had fallen off the sofa at the time that her father was talking in the street outside the window at 0915 pm on the 3rd, but he still believed the dog had picked up cadaver smell in that location and in the wardrobe and the garden weeks later. Given that the alarm was raised about 1000 pm, this does not add up, as according to other sources the body fluids would not have been released in that space of time.

Even if remains are found, it will still be a difficult case to solve.
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Post by Guest 06.07.12 17:25

Hi Rob. Yep I think everyone knows that - there have been numerous cases in which bodies have revealed little or no forensic evidence. Nobody is under any illusions I think.

Martin Grime stated in his rogatory interview that "cross-contamination is immediate" following death, but everybody knows this area is full of controversy and this has been shown in US courtrooms recently.

What are your thoughts on the case and cadaver dogs?
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Post by pennylane 06.07.12 17:42

Meagain wrote:If I have understood correctly, this guy doesn't think it's Robert Murat that buried "the body" that he says he has identified as being buried in the garden.

What made him think that Robert Murat's garden was worth a snoop around then?

The garden had been checked previously and had been found to be fine so what made him think it was worth a re-visit with all his snoopery gear and my second question echoes a fair few posters - how did he snoop about undetected by two massive guard dogs?

Having said that, let's hope the garden is dug up promptly to hopefully show this guy to be a waffling attention seeker.

K.

Not accusing any of the x-arguidos is a prudent move on Stephen Birch's part (imo).
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Post by Cheshire Cat 06.07.12 18:09

Cheshire Cat wrote:
ShuBob wrote:I think it's worth noting that this guy (or someone like him also from SA) has been saying the same thing for over a year if what the mods here are saying is true and I have no reason to doubt them. The PJ as well as the McCanns and Murat have probably also been aware of this for some time. How do we know the PJ haven't already investigated and ruled it out? It may not make sense but I won't be surprised if it's the McCanns who are behind the story hitting the press now if only to drag Murat's name back in the picture.

That is my thinking as well. Pat Brown didn't get this publicity when she did her work and search earlier this year!

Pat Brown has rubbished this story on Huffington Post
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Post by sweetex 06.07.12 18:48

Some new detail: Unfortunately translated.

http://www.abc.es/20120706/internacional/abci-scottland-yard-madeleine-pistas-201207061831.html

The evidence presented yesterday by the South African businessman Stephen Birch suggest that the body might be buried in the garden of the local neighbor Missing the small girl.

The British police were yesterday gathered to analyze the evidence presented by the South African businessman Stephen Birch, who claims to know where the body of Madeleine McCann. The Portuguese newspaper "Correio da Manha" which was the first to reveal the news, confirmed in its Monday edition that Scotland Yard is very hopeful with the new tracks that emerged around the Maddie case. The aforementioned employer ensures that the body is buried in the small garden of Robert Murat, the British citizen who lives next to the Ocean Club, local Missing Maddie. For its part, the Attorney General of the Republic (PRG) Lusa has reacted to new developments to report that the process will be reopened only "if there are new facts, credible and relevant and not mere hypotheses or speculation." If the Judicial Police (PJ) of the neighboring country wants to perform some due diligence needs require opening the case to prosecutors, who filed the process in July 2008.

Five years after the disappearance of little Madeleine has become clear that the case continues to arouse great interest among the public that came in detail any new developments. While waiting to know whether the data provided by Birch allow a retrial, we discover more details of the work done by this businessman obsessed with solving the mystery.

After four times invade the garden of Robert Murat with his machine geo radar (always at dawn, when he was not the owner) Birch has concluded that the body is buried two feet deep. Ensure that the ground was excavated "from 21:00 to 21:20 am on May 3 and Madeleine was buried between 22:05 and 22:15." This employer does not accuse without proof Maddie's parents Kate and Gerry McCann, but speaks of a suspicious figure, that of a British businessman who is the acronym GSA, who said he surfed with the father of Madeleine. Robert Murat also believes is foreign to the burial of the body of Madeleine.

It also now know what the reaction of Murat himself, who after being considered a suspect in 2007 prosecuted for libel in the English press to receive compensation for damage to its image and person a total of 750 thousand euros a year later. He works at home and married a citizen Luso-British. For now Robert Murat says that the claims of South African entrepreneur "are crazy and stupid."
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Investigator ensures that Maddie's body in the backyard of Murat - Page 7 Empty Re: Investigator ensures that Maddie's body in the backyard of Murat

Post by Rob Royston 06.07.12 18:54

tcat wrote:Hi Rob. Yep I think everyone knows that - there have been numerous cases in which bodies have revealed little or no forensic evidence. Nobody is under any illusions I think.

Martin Grime stated in his rogatory interview that "cross-contamination is immediate" following death, but everybody knows this area is full of controversy and this has been shown in US courtrooms recently.

What are your thoughts on the case and cadaver dogs?

Well, I would not doubt the dogs in that there has been a body in the apartment and probably in the car as well. If it was an abduction and the body was later moved around to create confusion, then it must have been the work of very powerful and evil people.

I have been reading lately of some proof that Madeleine was being substituted for at the creche for some days before she was reported abducted. Maybe somebody was getting too close to the truth and that it is time for some more confusion.
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Rob Royston

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