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Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

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Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by Guest on 18.06.12 11:45

Just been reading stuff and came across this which struck me at the time as being rather a strange thing to do. Is it legal for an unknown person to get information like this? Can anyone just set up a stall and ask for information? What information did she receive I wonder?

Quote from Jenny Murat .........



Last Updated: Friday, 11 May 2007, 15:42 GMT 16:42 UK

Suspicion of authorities



Some local expats are finding other ways to help, though. Jenny Murat, a retired nurse, at lunchtime on Friday set up a roadside stall in the middle of Praia da Luz, decked with posters in Portuguese asking people to come forward with information.

Whereas British residents and visitors will have been quick to contact police, she says, deep-rooted Portuguese suspicion of the authorities inherited from decades of dictatorship that ended only in 1974 - and, in some cases, specific reasons to hide certain things from police - could be stopping some people from supplying what could be useful leads.
"It's such an enormous job to just search, and surely there must be somebody who has information," she said as she set up chairs for friends who had promised to turn up.
"I know lots of people won't talk to police, for example because they're letting out an apartment that isn't registered with the council, but they can talk to an independent person.
"I'll pass everything on to police and if the information turns out to be crucial then they wouldn't mind being contacted by police."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6647479.stm

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by aquila on 18.06.12 12:16

I don't suppose the PJ would have been happy about that. I wonder who put Jenny Murat up to it and why she took it upon herself/agreed to do it? Most odd imo. Why would Portuguese people feel happy giving information to JM an expat? Why would an expat be a trusted person? Why would an expat wish to involve herself in a police investigation and go off on a tangent and do her own thing with the possibility of undermining the police of the country in which she resides? Tourists would have no problem going to the police. If as has been suggested the Portuguese locals may have broken a few rules with letting out their houses for holidays without licences then they have their own grapevine in which to deal/overcome that to give information and the police would probably ignore such a misdemeanour in a serious crime. There is something very true in the saying 'blood is thicker than water'. Indigenous people would not imo trust a foreigner/immigrant with their business - especially in the light of all the media attention. I've lived in a Med country.

Weren't the Murat's involved in the property business?

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by Hummingbird on 18.06.12 12:39

@aquila wrote:I don't suppose the PJ would have been happy about that. I wonder who put Jenny Murat up to it and why she took it upon herself/agreed to do it? Most odd imo. Why would Portuguese people feel happy giving information to JM an expat? Why would an expat be a trusted person? Why would an expat wish to involve herself in a police investigation and go off on a tangent and do her own thing with the possibility of undermining the police of the country in which she resides? Tourists would have no problem going to the police. If as has been suggested the Portuguese locals may have broken a few rules with letting out their houses for holidays without licences then they have their own grapevine in which to deal/overcome that to give information and the police would probably ignore such a misdemeanour in a serious crime. There is something very true in the saying 'blood is thicker than water'. Indigenous people would not imo trust a foreigner/immigrant with their business - especially in the light of all the media attention. I've lived in a Med country.

Weren't the Murat's involved in the property business?

Here we go again, someone else who can't wait to tell us in their own words why they are doing something and the reasons for it (another excuse subconsciously told to us).

'because they are letting out an apartment that isn't registered with the council'

the only reason you would set up a stall on a street corner in these circumstances is in the hope of getting some prior knowledge of someone you know being found out for something illegal and you have very kindly just told us what it is! Thanks




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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by T4two on 18.06.12 12:56

@Hummingbird wrote:
@aquila wrote:I don't suppose the PJ would have been happy about that. I wonder who put Jenny Murat up to it and why she took it upon herself/agreed to do it? Most odd imo. Why would Portuguese people feel happy giving information to JM an expat? Why would an expat be a trusted person? Why would an expat wish to involve herself in a police investigation and go off on a tangent and do her own thing with the possibility of undermining the police of the country in which she resides? Tourists would have no problem going to the police. If as has been suggested the Portuguese locals may have broken a few rules with letting out their houses for holidays without licences then they have their own grapevine in which to deal/overcome that to give information and the police would probably ignore such a misdemeanour in a serious crime. There is something very true in the saying 'blood is thicker than water'. Indigenous people would not imo trust a foreigner/immigrant with their business - especially in the light of all the media attention. I've lived in a Med country.

Weren't the Murat's involved in the property business?

Here we go again, someone else who can't wait to tell us in their own words why they are doing something and the reasons for it (another excuse subconsciously told to us).

'because they are letting out an apartment that isn't registered with the council'

the only reason you would set up a stall on a street corner in these circumstances is in the hope of getting some prior knowledge of someone you know being found out for something illegal and you have very kindly just told us what it is! Thanks




And IMO the only person she would do it for is her son. But, that doesn't necessarily mean that he was involved in some way of course; he might just have been under financial pressure and tempted by the reward money.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by aquila on 18.06.12 14:17

From what I understand JM was married to a Portuguese man - correct me if I am wrong. However that doesn't alter the fact that being a 'foreign' widow does not give doyen status. In my experience of a Med country, foreign wives (I am not one) only have the status of their indigenous husband within the community. If the husband is gone (through death or divorce) there is no individual status afforded to the immigrant wife. It's sad but true in my experience. Life for a widow/divorcee may continue peacefully in a Med country as long as she has the means to support herself. It matters not whether the language is spoken fluently or children of the marriage are brought up there; the foreign wife is still somewhat of an outcast when there is no husband around. She is foreign. Add to that the natural tendency to gather expat friends to enjoy one's own language/humour/culture then it is another reason to be an outcast in some way when the 'man' is no longer around.

I'm rambling a bit here but the point I am trying to make is that imo it is most odd for a woman to take the stance that JM did. I imagine that the locals did not live in a gated, well-heeled house so what made her think the locals who were possibly afraid of breeching holiday-let laws were going to confide in her? I could be wrong, I didn't live in Portugal and I may be assuming most Med countries are the same.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by Newintown on 18.06.12 14:59

Quote from Jenny Murat:

"I know lots of people won't talk to police, for example because they're letting out an apartment that isn't registered with the council, but they can talk to an independent person.
"I'll pass everything on to police and if the information turns out to be crucial then they wouldn't mind being contacted by police."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What Jenny Murat says doesn't make sense. How would she know if any of the information was crucial, would she make that opinion herself or would she expect the Police to advise her that "so and so's" evidence you gave us was crucial. If that person wouldn't mind being contacted by Police, why wouldn't they contact the Police directly in the first place.

I think Jenny Murat had more on her mind than being helpful to the local population, as in the McCanns still printing on their website that any nformation can be handed to them instead of the Police. I'm surprised the police are allowing them to have that on their Board, especially now that the MET are involved.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by aquila on 18.06.12 15:17

@Newintown wrote:Quote from Jenny Murat:

"I know lots of people won't talk to police, for example because they're letting out an apartment that isn't registered with the council, but they can talk to an independent person.
"I'll pass everything on to police and if the information turns out to be crucial then they wouldn't mind being contacted by police."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What Jenny Murat says doesn't make sense. How would she know if any of the information was crucial, would she make that opinion herself or would she expect the Police to advise her that "so and so's" evidence you gave us was crucial. If that person wouldn't mind being contacted by Police, why wouldn't they contact the Police directly in the first place.

I think Jenny Murat had more on her mind than being helpful to the local population, as in the McCanns still printing on their website that any nformation can be handed to them instead of the Police. I'm surprised the police are allowing them to have that on their Board, especially now that the MET are involved.

Somedays this whole nest of vipers gives me nausea. I can't see why even a 'do-goody' action such as this could have possibly been helpful other than to de-rail to protect personal interests. I can't see it as a normal reaction. As they say 'follow the money' who stood to lose? who stood to lose status/money? Who stood to gain?

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by T4two on 18.06.12 15:29

@aquila wrote:From what I understand JM was married to a Portuguese man - correct me if I am wrong. However that doesn't alter the fact that being a 'foreign' widow does not give doyen status. In my experience of a Med country, foreign wives (I am not one) only have the status of their indigenous husband within the community. If the husband is gone (through death or divorce) there is no individual status afforded to the immigrant wife. It's sad but true in my experience. Life for a widow/divorcee may continue peacefully in a Med country as long as she has the means to support herself. It matters not whether the language is spoken fluently or children of the marriage are brought up there; the foreign wife is still somewhat of an outcast when there is no husband around. She is foreign. Add to that the natural tendency to gather expat friends to enjoy one's own language/humour/culture then it is another reason to be an outcast in some way when the 'man' is no longer around.

I'm rambling a bit here but the point I am trying to make is that imo it is most odd for a woman to take the stance that JM did. I imagine that the locals did not live in a gated, well-heeled house so what made her think the locals who were possibly afraid of breeching holiday-let laws were going to confide in her? I could be wrong, I didn't live in Portugal and I may be assuming most Med countries are the same.

Well, in those continental countries I have visited, although I've never been to Portugal, it's the law that people letting property not only have to declare the use of the property to the authorities but also register the persons staying there with the police, so running an illicit operation would be contravening such regulations for starters. Then there's the little matter of tax evation to go with it, since it would be naive to think that such people would declare illicit income for tax purposes - so more than just a misdemeanor I should have thought. But Mrs Murat's argument falls down badly because if tourists go to the police and happen to be living in accomodation which has not been declared as rental property and thus are not registered with the police as living there the police will find out about the undeclared accomodation anyway. So unless Mrs Murat had a sign on her stall appealing to tourists to impart any knowledge they may have to her and not to the police in case they are living in illegal accomodation, then frankly her whole statement is a load of manure.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by Guest on 18.06.12 15:29

Thinking about it more and more it is such a strange thing to do imo. Would anyone here open a stall and ask for information pertinent to an inquiry on a missing person in their own town, especially if you didn't know them at all??? I'm sure the police would stop that tout de suite.

As newintown said, if they didn't mind her giving the information to police, why wouldn't they go to the police in the first place.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by aquila on 18.06.12 15:43

candyfloss wrote:Thinking about it more and more it is such a strange thing to do imo. Would anyone here open a stall and ask for information pertinent to an inquiry on a missing person in their own town, especially if you didn't know them at all??? I'm sure the police would stop that tout de suite.

As newintown said, if they didn't mind her giving the information to police, why wouldn't they go to the police in the first place.

I've tried to explain what life is like in a Med country. The rules are not always adhered to. I find MW's creche situation incredible. A large company with little control (or interest for that matter) over procedure imo. The people who have come out of the woodwork such as JM just don't sit right with my experience of living in a Med country. It just ain't right.

Editing to add. JM's actions were at best 'do-goody' but undermined the PJ immediately. They weren't looking for a lost dog and needed the 'puppy photo' on a lamp post from the well-meaning expat community. I'm astounded.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by T4two on 18.06.12 16:08

candyfloss wrote:Thinking about it more and more it is such a strange thing to do imo. Would anyone here open a stall and ask for information pertinent to an inquiry on a missing person in their own town, especially if you didn't know them at all??? I'm sure the police would stop that tout de suite.

As newintown said, if they didn't mind her giving the information to police, why wouldn't they go to the police in the first place.

My take on it all is that Murat probably got himself involved after the event and was trying to find out information to use so that he and his girlfriend could claim the huge reward for information leading to the recovery of the child and apprehension of the 'abductor' or whoever and thus set themselves up for life. What an opportunity to be in a situation where you can gather information at will by being close to the first police on the scene and interpreting for all the English speaking witnesses. Either his mother was in on the scheme and set up her stall in collusion with him, or else, which IMO is more likely, she was convinced that her sonny boy was somehow involved and was looking for a way to protect him. I guess as things developed, Murat started to smell a rat as far as the parents and their friends were concerned, because he would no doubt have picked up at least some of the inconsistencies in the intial statements to police and media. Never mind the police not looking at Mrs Murat's action favourably, how must the McCanns have felt about the mother of 'that person sticking his nose into everything' setting up a stall like that? So, they and their friends with the assistance of CM, who used LC for that purpose, shopped him and effectively took him out of circulation. It could be that a deal was done later on to assist Murat to take the consolation prize of several hundred thousand pounds for having his life destroyed. All speculation on my part of course.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by Guest on 18.06.12 16:13

Well with Robert Murat acting as translator of the witness statements, and his mother maybe receiving information from the villagers, then between them they certainly would have known what was going on with this case.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by aquila on 18.06.12 16:19

candyfloss wrote:Well with Robert Murat acting as translator of the witness statements, and his mother maybe receiving information from the villagers, then between them they certainly would have known what was going on with this case.

I can't see why RM would have offered his services as translator to go after a reward that he didn't know existed at the time. I'm afraid my thoughts are darker.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by tigger on 18.06.12 17:57

candyfloss wrote:Well with Robert Murat acting as translator of the witness statements, and his mother maybe receiving information from the villagers, then between them they certainly would have known what was going on with this case.

Perhaps that was part of the arrangement, would seem to be a sensible thing to do. Murat called back from Devon to arrange things and afterwards to keep an eye on the police activity. He was also caught trying to look at documents in the police station, one of the inspectors reported it to his superior.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by T4two on 18.06.12 20:17

@aquila wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Well with Robert Murat acting as translator of the witness statements, and his mother maybe receiving information from the villagers, then between them they certainly would have known what was going on with this case.

I can't see why RM would have offered his services as translator to go after a reward that he didn't know existed at the time. I'm afraid my thoughts are darker.

There's always a reward where important people are concerned - he would have seen the British Ambassador strutting around he next day, read the news realized how important these people were.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by tigger on 18.06.12 20:51

@T4two wrote:
@aquila wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Well with Robert Murat acting as translator of the witness statements, and his mother maybe receiving information from the villagers, then between them they certainly would have known what was going on with this case.

I can't see why RM would have offered his services as translator to go after a reward that he didn't know existed at the time. I'm afraid my thoughts are darker.

There's always a reward where important people are concerned - he would have seen the British Ambassador strutting around he next day, read the news realized how important these people were.

Murat was known to the McCanns before the holiday, the phone records indicate that he was called back to PdL from Devon, he arrived on the 1st of May and had a number of meetings.
Once he was made an arguido he had to amend his account of the days following his arrival.

A summary of Murat’s 17 changes of story about what he did on 1, 2, 3 and 4 May

You may by now have lost count of the number of changes in Robert Murat’s story about what he was doing between 1 and 4 May, so here’s a convenient summary of his new account of events, and how these contradicted his earlier account of events:

Remembers that on 1 May he tried to contact Jorge da Silva.
Remembers that on 2 May he didn’t leave home at 10.30am but instead had a meeting with Sergei Malinka at the Batista Supermarket.
He had in fact taken Michaela and Malinka back to his mother’s house in Praia da Luz for a further discussion, something he’d omitted to tell the police in the first interview.
He now remembered visiting his bank and paying in 287.51 euros.
He now remembered he’d called at the home of Francisco Pagarete, his lawyer, that morning.
He now remembers that he had met Francisco Pagarete that afternoon.
He now remembers that another of Jorge’s sons was present at their meeting in the café in the afternoon.
The meeting in the café went on much longer than he had said previously.
He thinks that Michaela Walczuk’s husband Luis Antonio may not have been present at Michaela’s house that evening, contrary to what he had previously said.
On 3 May, he had not woken at 9.00am as previously stated, but at 8.00am.
He had not driven to Michaela’s house that morning after 10.00am as previously stated; instead he had left home at 8.45am for a 9.30am meeting with the owner of the business tourist complex called ‘Gold Bunker’ in the Espiche district and her father-in-law.
He now remembered that he and Michaela had visited two apartments for about 30 minutes, probably on the afternoon of 3 May.
He and Michaela had lunch with the owner of the ‘Gold Bunker’ complex and her father-in-law, a fact he had not disclosed to police before.
Michaela’s daughter C______ was not with them that day, contrary to his previous story.
They went to the Palmares Golf Club in the afternoon, another fact Murat had failed to disclose.
He now admitted to making two telephone calls, to Sergei Malinka and Michaela, at 11.39pm and 11.40pm that night.
He previously said he had woken at 9.00am on Friday 4 May. He now admitted he had telephoned Michaela at 8.27am and must have got up earlier.

The above is from The Madeleine Foundation article on Murat.
I am sure that Murat was working for financial gain but there were other people in the background with plenty of money who would see him 'right' imo.
He was helping the McCanns from the moment he arrived imo - some compensation had to be offered. But the official rewards offered were for the safe return of Madeleine, imo, Murat would know that would never happen.


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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by jozi on 19.06.12 10:07

@tigger wrote:
@T4two wrote:
@aquila wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Well with Robert Murat acting as translator of the witness statements, and his mother maybe receiving information from the villagers, then between them they certainly would have known what was going on with this case.

I can't see why RM would have offered his services as translator to go after a reward that he didn't know existed at the time. I'm afraid my thoughts are darker.

There's always a reward where important people are concerned - he would have seen the British Ambassador strutting around he next day, read the news realized how important these people were.

Murat was known to the McCanns before the holiday, the phone records indicate that he was called back to PdL from Devon, he arrived on the 1st of May and had a number of meetings.
Once he was made an arguido he had to amend his account of the days following his arrival.

A summary of Murat’s 17 changes of story about what he did on 1, 2, 3 and 4 May

You may by now have lost count of the number of changes in Robert Murat’s story about what he was doing between 1 and 4 May, so here’s a convenient summary of his new account of events, and how these contradicted his earlier account of events:

Remembers that on 1 May he tried to contact Jorge da Silva.
Remembers that on 2 May he didn’t leave home at 10.30am but instead had a meeting with Sergei Malinka at the Batista Supermarket.
He had in fact taken Michaela and Malinka back to his mother’s house in Praia da Luz for a further discussion, something he’d omitted to tell the police in the first interview.
He now remembered visiting his bank and paying in 287.51 euros.
He now remembered he’d called at the home of Francisco Pagarete, his lawyer, that morning.
He now remembers that he had met Francisco Pagarete that afternoon.
He now remembers that another of Jorge’s sons was present at their meeting in the café in the afternoon.
The meeting in the café went on much longer than he had said previously.
He thinks that Michaela Walczuk’s husband Luis Antonio may not have been present at Michaela’s house that evening, contrary to what he had previously said.
On 3 May, he had not woken at 9.00am as previously stated, but at 8.00am.
He had not driven to Michaela’s house that morning after 10.00am as previously stated; instead he had left home at 8.45am for a 9.30am meeting with the owner of the business tourist complex called ‘Gold Bunker’ in the Espiche district and her father-in-law.
He now remembered that he and Michaela had visited two apartments for about 30 minutes, probably on the afternoon of 3 May.
He and Michaela had lunch with the owner of the ‘Gold Bunker’ complex and her father-in-law, a fact he had not disclosed to police before.
Michaela’s daughter C______ was not with them that day, contrary to his previous story.
They went to the Palmares Golf Club in the afternoon, another fact Murat had failed to disclose.
He now admitted to making two telephone calls, to Sergei Malinka and Michaela, at 11.39pm and 11.40pm that night.
He previously said he had woken at 9.00am on Friday 4 May. He now admitted he had telephoned Michaela at 8.27am and must have got up earlier.

The above is from The Madeleine Foundation article on Murat.
I am sure that Murat was working for financial gain but there were other people in the background with plenty of money who would see him 'right' imo.
He was helping the McCanns from the moment he arrived imo - some compensation had to be offered. But the official rewards offered were for the safe return of Madeleine, imo, Murat would know that would never happen.

So if he was helping the McCanns and was summoned back , something must have happened to Maddie before May 1st ?
I think they only landed in Portugal on the 29th April to start their holiday which was the Sat ? Or am I wrong about the arrival date !!!

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by Guest on 19.06.12 10:11

The arrival date was Saturday, 28th April.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by jozi on 19.06.12 10:28

Jean wrote:The arrival date was Saturday, 28th April.

Thanks for that Jean, thought I was loosing the plot LOL. Anyway its still worth looking at the days between the 28th April and 1st May to see what they were up to on the Family Holiday ?
If people think Murat was called back and he arrived on the 1st May then something happened before the 1st ?

Does anybody know what time his flight arrived on the 1st May and when he booked the flight ?

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by tigger on 19.06.12 15:52

@jozi wrote:
Jean wrote:The arrival date was Saturday, 28th April.

Thanks for that Jean, thought I was loosing the plot LOL. Anyway its still worth looking at the days between the 28th April and 1st May to see what they were up to on the Family Holiday ?
If people think Murat was called back and he arrived on the 1st May then something happened before the 1st ?

Does anybody know what time his flight arrived on the 1st May and when he booked the flight ?

It's a bit long to read, but very interesting: http://www.madeleinefoundation.org.uk/

You'll have to click left top on 'articles' and scroll down to the 7 chapters on Murat. Happy reading!

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by mexx on 20.06.12 6:00

I've lived in a Med country.


Portugal is not a Mediterranean country, nor are all Mediterranean countries alike...

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by Ribisl on 20.06.12 6:34

@mexx wrote:I've lived in a Med country.


Portugal is not a Mediterranean country, nor are all Mediterranean countries alike...
Your point being...?
If you are questioning aquila's earlier statement about foreign widows in a Med country being outcasts, then I tend to agree with you. In my experience, it all depends on one's attitude and willingness to integrate within the local community and adopt to their culture. Perhaps Murat's mother was/is more Portuguese than British in that sense after many years of living there. However, I still find her behaviour strange to say the least and cannot understand why she did it unless she is simply a well meaning but misguided do-gooder. In the light of her son's alleged involvement in this case, it seems less likely to be the case, but impossible to know.

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Re: Jenny Murat's stall to help find Madeleine

Post by Angelique on 20.06.12 22:29

When I first heard about Murat's Mother setting up a table outside her home, I think it was on the news, at the time I didn't think much about it and thought it was likely just a little eccentric but just trying to help. I don't think there was anything sinister about it - as has been said I think she may have been concerned and just felt she was doing something instead of watching events unfurl.

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